The Vatican has declared the Pope immune from testifying or being sued

[Bluebear]

Although American lawyers have sought Pope Benedict's testimony in cases involving sexual abuse, the Roman Pontiff cannot be compelled to testify-- nor included as the defendant in a lawsuit-- because as a head of state he enjoys sovereign immunity, a Vatican official has reminded reporters.

"The pope is certainly a head of state, who has the same juridical status as all heads of state," said Giuseppe dalla Torre, who heads the tribunal of the Vatican city-state. The 170 nations that have formal diplomatic relations with the Holy See would recognize the Pope's immunity, he said.

Dalla Torre also pointed out that Pope Benedict is not legally responsible for the administration of individual dioceses or the superivision of diocesan priests. The Catholic Church, he observed, is not like a "multinational corporation" with a single chief executive. Each bishop is solely responsible for the administration of his own diocese.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=5909

[katandmoon]

1. Wow -- just like Bush/Cheney!

[Mojeoux]

44. This is an Historic Challenge to the Integrity of the People of Italy, Remember..."Nicholas's Gift?"

Maybe they need a Constitutional Convention? Put the Vatican on Notice!

We live near the town of Bodega California. There is a magical memorial of Italian bells near the ocean, called "Nicholas' Gift."

It was given to the town from the Italian people after a little boy Nicholas, from Bodega, Ca was killed in a robbery and his parents donated his organs and saved other little children in Italy.

Anonymous robbers in Italy donated guns to be melted down and the Vatican's own bell makers for the last thousand years, cast the bells we have in Bodega.

This beautiful story shows that Italians love little children, a lot!

This is a slap in the face to Rome, all of Europe and all the people of the World.

[Beartracks]

102. Anonymous robbers?

Wow, I've never heard of this before. I'm not from California, but still...

Beautiful story.

---------------

[Mojeoux]

107. They made announcements and appeals.

The robber who killed the little boy was caught and they say he was genuinely appalled that he had killed a child.

There was some kind of agreement that the baddies could get rid of guns no questions asked.

If you are ever on that part of the coast, it's worth the visit.

If the wind is blowing, the bells ring wild.

[Canuckistanian]

67. Next thing you know the pope will hire Ari Fleischer as a publicist

Oh, and Gloria Allred for his lawyer.

[roguevalley]

76. if he's sovereign, we can ban him from coming here because of his

terroristic activities in supporting the harm of our people

[dave29]

2. good work if you can get it

:shrug:

[notesdev]

3. So the final answer is...

"no controlling legal authority"?

[DJ13]

4. The Vatican is its own country

They make their own rules.

True he could be indicted in another country, but he couldnt be arrested within the Vatican.

[A HERETIC I AM]

16. Wanna bet? (edited)

but he couldnt be arrested within the Vatican.

If some country or another wanted him bad enough, they would just send in troops and arrest his ass.

Similar things have been done in the past.

The Vatican has no army and gates can be easily breached. The idea that the Vatican can just simply say the pope is above the law is absurd.

Edit:

Of course I realize such a scenario would set off an international incident, and would perhaps be seen by the Italians as an act of war, but the fact is, of someone wanted him bad enough, the Vatican couldn't protect him.

[DJ13]

23. So now that weve suffered through Bush we think no country is sovereign?

How far we have fallen......

[A HERETIC I AM]

58. The Vatican is not a country.

It is a group of buildings within the city of Rome which house the managerial staff of a religious organization. The only reason people think it is a country, is because the Vatican SAYS IT IS, and people just agree.

The idea that they can simply say the papacy is immune from investigation and prosecution because, after all, "We're the Vatican" is utter BULLSHIT.

It is a used car dealership, with satellite lots all over the world. That's all it is. They are selling something (and that something is a load of crap, BTW) and they have something to hide.

"So now that weve suffered through Bush we think no country is sovereign?

How far we have fallen...."

Is that the "Royal" "we"?

I reject outright the idea that the management offices of the Catholic church is a "country".

It's a fucking business and a shit load of their managers have been breaking laws for centuries.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

59. Vatican.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

[Toasterlad]

69. Vatican City Is An Internationally Recognized Country With Its Own Laws

Much as you or I might wish differently.

[Hosnon]

74. Um...claiming sovereignty and everyone's agreeing is pretty much what makes a country a country. nt.

[Retrograde]

88. Technically, the Vatican does have an army

It's the Swiss Guard, who are armed with a lot more than just those ceremonial halberds (although those look pretty vicious): if you go to the Vatican you can catch glimpses of the ones not in ceremonial uniform, who look like soldiers everywhere. But driven by a fanatical devotion to the pope. It's a small army, though, and if Italy cooperated the Vatican can be easily blocked off.

However, in the US and probably in a lot of other countries there is this thing called separation of Church and State, and local bishops and cardinals can be questioned in cases involving possible criminal activities on the part of their subordinates. That's why Cardinal Law fled, IIRC.

(Trivia: the Vatican also includes the 3 other major basilicas in Rome proper, but aside from being able to mail postcards with Vatican City stamps from them they don't seem to be anything but liturgical)

[TorchTheWitch]

90. The Swiss guard the Vatican

It's the only Swiss Guard unit still in existence. So essentially it has somewhat of an army... and they do have guns and know how to use them. But who the hell is going to attack the Vatican?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard

This is actually quite interesting. To serve in the Swiss Guard for the Vatican you have to be a Catholic single male between the ages of 19 and 30, yet in 1998 the head of the commander of the Swiss Guard and his WIFE were mysteriously murdered in Vatican City... he had a wife and supposedly a male lover. Which doesn't jive with the service requirement of being a single male.

"On May 4, 1998, the Swiss Guard experienced one of its greatest scandals in over 100 years when the commander of the Guard, Alois Estermann was murdered in unclear circumstances in Vatican City. According to the official Vatican version, Estermann and his wife, Gladys Meza Romero, were killed by the young Swiss Guard Cédric Tornay, who later committed suicide. Estermann had been named commander of the Swiss Guard the same day. There has been speculation of a homosexual affair between Estermann and Tornay which ended in tragedy."

[NNN0LHI]

5. Saddam was a head of state too. He enjoyed his sovereign immunity right to the gallows

[bbinacan]

7. And I'm glad

that the asshole got the gallows.

[gmoney]

8. can we invade?

[City Lights]

6. So the vatican is pro-pedophile.

Just like the pope.

[flying rabbit]

9. Nice pic!

Really shows off his...um...dammit he's reaching for my soul.:yoiks:

[Beartracks]

10. Why the creepy picture?

Anyhow, painting with such a broad, name-calling brush is one of the very things for which we deride conservatives. The Pope is no more "pro-pedophile" than a choice activist is "pro-babykiller."

-------------------------------

[Bluebear]

11. Covering up these crimes is creepy. Nice touch about "we" deriding conservatives btw.

[Webster Green]

14. How the hell would you know that?

Do you know the Pope? Do you watch him 24/7 or something?

It seems as though he is pro-pedophile. Since he's the head of the Catholic Church, it would be more surprising if he wasn't pro-pedophile. :wtf:

[Beartracks]

18. WTF indeed

Wait -- so ALL Catholics are pedophile supporters, and therefore those in positions of authority within the Church must contain within them, by nature of their responsibilities, a greater interest in pedophilia and a greater level of pro-pedophilia, such that the top ranks of the hierarchy must therefore reflect supreme concentrations of pedophilia, representing as they do the millions and millions of regular, everyday pedophile supporters that comprise the Church? Because that's pretty much the only scenario in which you can make the blanket statement that the Pope must by definition be pro-pedophile simply because he is head of the Catholic Church.

----------------------

[mitchum]

27. All Catholics may not be kid touchers, but all Catholics ARE supporters of a pedophiliac institution

Their support of the church gives it both legitimacy and $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Beartracks]

41. Got your pedophilia-colored glasses on, I see

I'll have to ignore the obvious bias built into your statement that "all Catholics MAY NOT BE kid touchers." :eyes:

But anyhow, the other part of your statement -- that all Catholics are supporters of a pedophiliac institution -- reflects, I think, a willful misperception on your part. All Catholics could be said to support an institution in which pedophilia has historically been a problem, but the Church is not itself a pedophiliac institution. You might just say that's semantics, but the distinction between these two phrases is quite clear and obvious.

Remember the rallying cry of the left when Bush invaded Iraq: "Not in my name!" I dare say those who vociferously made such a protest would not have wanted to be viewed or regarded by others as terrorists, murderers, and warmongers -- or, simply, as pro-Bush -- simply because they were Americans. Likewise, Catholics do not deserve such slander because of the actions and mistakes of a handful of Church members and leaders.

I am amazed and concerned when I see people here at DU engage in the kind of broad-brush tactics that they so forcefully decry when used by conservatives -- and yet here they are, happily lumping and generalizing and patting themselves on the back for it, especially if it relates to some pet issue or pet peeve they may have where strong emotions get involved.

I understand your passion, but strive for accuracy and fairness. Calling all Catholics pedophile supporters is like calling all Americans -- including you -- pro-torture. Neither is fair, and neither is true.

------------------------------

[mitchum]

46. Funny, I thought that my obvious bias was indicated by my use of the lower case "church"

It is a hell of a lot easier to renounce one's membership in a demonstrably corrupt institution than it is to renounce one's citizenship in an alleged democracy.
People have been doing it for centuries. Give it a try, apologist.

[Beartracks]

50. If you must know, it's Apologist.

People like to throw up the labels around here, don't they? I urge you to keep your arguments on solid ground rather than generalizing like Sean Hannity, and you call me an apologist?

:rofl:

[DURHAM D]

28. I think you are not keeping up with the facts. nt

[Beartracks]

31. Which facts?

[DURHAM D]

33. This post is about this Pope and the institution.

You have tried to change it to a conversation about "all catholics". Straw Pope much?

Why are you trying to defend the indefensible. Is it your "job"? It must be because, again, you are ignoring facts specific to Benedict. You know, the guy who currently heads the institution.

[Beartracks]

48. No straw Pope here.

I'm not defending the Pope's decisions, and I'm not trying to steer this thread down any road it wasn't already on. I'm defending Catholics against the notion that they all must be pro-pedophile (the implicit understanding of WebsterGreen's assertions), and I'm defending the Pope against the notion that he is *likely* pro-pedophile simply because he is head of the Church rather than because of any specific actions or decisions he has made that have protected pedophiles from prosecution.

-------------------------

[DURHAM D]

51. My aren't we defensive? eom

[Beartracks]

52. I love that response!

It signifies nothing. That's why I don't use it.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beartracks]

79. Run that by a debate instructor.

See what the instructor says about your logical conclusion/fallacy.

---------------------

[Toasterlad]

84. Tragically, Arguments On DU Have Never Had To Pass Any Kind Of Logic Test

However, I will concede defeat if you can logically explain how the catholic church's aiding and abetting of pedophiles makes them anti-pedophile.

[Beartracks]

98. True about the Logic Test. But...

... "the catholic church's aiding and abetting of pedophiles makes them pro-pedophile" is not what you asserted in your prior post. You asserted that "catholics are pro-pedophile."

Notwithstanding that, biblically speaking, the people ARE the Church, you obviously know that it's the INSTITUTION, its leaders and its policies, where the problems lie, not in the church membership at large.

In your prior post, you basically asserted something like this: Ohio state laws do not allow gays to marry; Ohioans by definition must follow Ohio laws; therefore, Ohioans are pro-bigot. Or this: the President ordered torture; Americans by definition must support their President; therefore, Americans are pro-torture. Not perfect analogies, but the fallacy is the same.

Your first problem lies in the "Catholics by definition" part of your argument. Either you're a cynical ex-Catholic, or are simply unaware how Catholics actually lead their lives, but the fact of the matter is that many Catholics do not fit whatever "definition" you seem to be referring to. In practice many Catholics are not in lock-step with the Vatican on all things; many disagree with certain doctrines and traditions, and some would like to see change. You are trying to make your case by citing some "textbook definition" that does not actually apply equally to all members of the group.

You also choose a not-so-subtle tactic better suited to protest signs than constructive arguments: namely, you refer to Catholics as "pro-pedophile" simply because they are not "anti-Church." In your assertion you equate support for the Church as support of pedophiles, simply because some priests are pedophiles. Sorry, I don't recall the fancy name for that kind of generalization, but basically you're transferring the sins of the Fathers onto the flock who merely go to church every Sunday. They're not going to stop being Catholics because some bishops and priests committed crimes and the hierarchy tried to hush it up. Why should they? That abominable activity reflects only the failings of individual people, not the Catholic faith and what they see as the overall mission of the Church. And, remember, the Church is THEM, not the institution.

Just as most Ohioans are certainly not pro-bigot even though state laws prohibit gay marriage, and just as most Americans are not pro-torture even though some of our leaders ordered/aided/abetted it, likewise most Catholics are not pro-pedophile even though some Church leaders engaged in/aided/abetted it.

----------------------

[Toasterlad]

99. But Here's the Disconnect: No One Has to Be a Catholic

Ohios must legally follow the law, whether they like it or not. Catholics CHOOSE to be members of an organization that is bigoted, misogynistic, and pro-pedophile.

[Beartracks]

101. That's ridiculous.

Ohioans CHOOSE to be citizens of a state that is regressive, sanctimonious, and pro-bigot. (Sorry, Ohio, I just picked your name at random for my analogy.)

Am I correct in asserting that "regressive, sanctimonious, and pro-bigot" is a complete description of Ohio, just as you assert that "bigoted, misogynistic, and pro-pedophile" is a complete representation of the Church?

Should Ohio citizens who disagree with the law or the actions of state leaders leave the state in disgust, or stay and work to change the law and fix the leadership because they love Ohio and it is their home?

-----------------------

[Toasterlad]

104. You're Correct: It's Ridiculous

America is a democracy. Ohio is a democracy. There is a system in place for Ohioans to express their wishes for how the state is goverened.

The catholic church is not a democracy. Catholics have exactly zero say in how things are run. By being a member of the catholic church, you are agreeing to submit to the will of the pope, who is in charge. You don't ge to make changes. You can either accept what the pope says and be a catholic, or you ignore the pope and be a hypocrite.

One of the most annoying things about the heads-in-the-sand catholics who pretend that the Vatican has absolutely nothing to do with their religion is that they keep forgetting that religion is a set of beliefs. The beliefs are determined BY THE POPE. You can't pick and choose which ones you want to follow or not.

Stay a catholic and support bigotry, misogyny, and pedophilia. Or quit. Those are your only options.

[Beartracks]

105. Your black and white approach...

... does not reflect the actual complexity of the issue. Let's see what some Catholics have to say (survey comments comprise the second half of the article):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36116840/ns/us_news-faith/?ns=us_news-faith&ns=us_news-faith

Yes, some are quitting the Church. And others have had their faith strengthened: as one man puts it: "My faith in Christ's church is not dependent on the great sins of its members." None of the respondents, however, seem to condone the actions and decisions of the Pope or of the priests who have committed crimes. Oddly, that means that NONE of them are "pro-pedophile" and yet most of them are, still, Catholics.

Your statement about hypocrites, by the way, may be true. At least, I'm certain the Church would agree with your assessment there on Catholics who don't follow doctrine to the letter.

-----------------

[Toasterlad]

106. "I'm certain the Church would agree with your assessment there"

Yes, it would. Which is what makes what I said TRUE, and makes what catholics tell themselves to stay with the church a LIE.

[Retrograde]

89. Only on matters of faith

Popes can (and have been) be corrupt, venal, worldly, incompetent, etc., being only human. The problem this particular one seems to be having is that he doesn't seem to grasp the concept of separation of Church and State. If a priest commits a crime - anything from running a stop sign to murder - it should be an issue for civil authorities, not him. A pope can discipline priests for breaking their vows of chastity: that's entirely within the Church's sphere. The civil authorities can prosecute priests for molesting minors: that's a civil issue. Benedict thinks they're both in his purview, which is one of the problems.

[Walk away]

He spent five years learning from the lowest scum on the face of the Earth.

While young Resistance members risked their lives to stop the Nazi monsters, he was busy eating cake at Nazi school. It's not surprising he grew up to be a deviant.

[RainDog]

21. why did he spend decades shielding peodphiles from criminal charges then?

too bad we won't see any popey-changey.

[Bluebear]

25. ROFL!!!!!!!

'too bad we won't see any popey-changey.'

:spray:

[Beartracks]

30. Maybe I'm not up on the latest.

Last I read, it seemed unclear as to whether or not he was directly involved in priest shuffling.

I recall that when this pedophile priest thing came to light among American dioceses a few years back, it was discovered there had been a tendency by bishops to shuffle priests around, too, under the misguided idea that they could perhaps be saved or fixed within the Church without having to involve secular authorities -- even though the crimes were definitely secular. I think this stems from an anti-publicity, rather than a pro-pedophile, position. The result is the same -- pedophiles get shielded -- but the intentions are not.

----------------

[Bluebear]

35. Try 200 molested deaf kids in Milwaukee directly linked to the man in the "creepy" photo.

If you haven't kept up on the latest, maybe you should read up a bit before looking like such an apologist.

[Beartracks]

55. Thanks, I hadn't read about the Milwaukee travesty.

Probably been about 2 weeks since I'd read anything more about the Pope's involvement in these matters.

---------------------

[RainDog]

37. oh bullshit. he was trying to hide the scandal.

back in the 90s.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection

The letter, 'concerning very grave sins', was sent from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office that once presided over the Inquisition and was overseen by Ratzinger.

It spells out to bishops the church's position on a number of matters ranging from celebrating the eucharist with a non-Catholic to sexual abuse by a cleric 'with a minor below the age of 18 years'. Ratzinger's letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been 'perpetrated with a minor by a cleric'.

The letter states that the church's jurisdiction 'begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age' and lasts for 10 years.

It orders that 'preliminary investigations' into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger's office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the 'functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests'.

'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.


it's obstruction of justice. throw his sorry ass in jail.

He knew his brother was physically abusing children in Regensberg - not pedophilia, just beating the shit out of them, you know, christian love. Magadalena sisters abuse. horrific, but no sex, so...who cares if a few orphans get the shit beat out of them by some hoary old man.

he has Donahue out there spouting his Sept. 2009 talking point that these weren't pedophiles, they were homosexuals - tho BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS WERE ABUSED. He and the piece of shit Donahue are trying to bash gays because they think the law doesn't apply to them.

that, in itself, is evidence that this man is a piece of shit. he's tried to blame the media, the German govt., the American people... EVERYONE BUT THOSE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE.

[Beartracks]

56. Thanks for the link. n/t

--------------------

[Toasterlad]

71. That Was Nicely Done.

:thumbsup:

[notesdev]

43. Here's a better picture

[Beartracks]

80. Wow!

:rofl:

-----------------

[walldude]

81. Yeah and the priests aren't pedophiles because the children were over 13

and this is all just "gossip". And you my friend are DEAD WRONG. The Pope is the leader of the Church. When these allegations originally surfaced the priests in question were moved to other places where they continued to molest children. There are claims that the Pope knew of this and supported it. Doesn't matter what he knew or supported, he's the leader of an organization that was criminally responsible for providing a known pedophile with more children to molest. Not only has the church taken a pro-pedophile stance, and spent the last week attacking the press, the victims and anyone who dares question them, but they have gone above and beyond, not only giving child molesters a safe haven but providing them with children to molest. It's fucking SICK and your defense of it is disgusting.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. Leaving aside the many substantative rebuttals to your post, many of which folks have helpfully made

the fact remains that there are no "non-creepy" pictures of that, er, individual.

[havocmom]

97. Curious about what evidence you used to form opinion about pope's personal views

Just how do we decide he is not pro-pedophile in the face of hard evidence that he allowed for the protection of pedophile clerics and even took part in some of the legal and logistical exercises to hide them from being held accountable?

It isn't a 'broad brush' when you have facts to tar officials with.

[Solly Mack]

12. After the force fucks up your face

[anigbrowl]

19. OK, so I wasn't the only person who saw the similarity...

[Solly Mack]

20. I see it each & every time time I see Pope Bennie

Makes my skin crawl...

[awoke_in_2003]

78. yeah, I saw it...

and thought "if only he was wearing black".

[pnwmom]

13. A Pope fired Archbishop Hunthausen and a Pope appointed his replacement.

To me, that says the Pope DOES oversee the bishops, and that they are NOT solely responsible for their own dioceses.

[muriel_volestrangler]

64. All bishops are appointed by the Pope, and report to him

It is indeed a multinational.

The Congregation for Bishops is responsible for the delineation, division, establishment and merging of Dioceses, for the consideration of candidates to be appointed to Dioceses and the recommendation of candidates to the Holy Father.

http://www.catholic-pages.com/vatican/curia.asp

Can. 377 §1 The Supreme Pontiff freely appoints Bishops or confirms those lawfully elected.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P1C.HTM

Can. 381 §1 In the diocese entrusted to his care, the diocesan Bishop has all the ordinary, proper and immediate power required for the exercise of his pastoral office, except in those matters which the law or a decree of the Supreme Pontiff reserves to the supreme or to some other ecclesiastical authority.

Can. 399 §1 Every five years the diocesan Bishop is bound to submit to the Supreme Pontiff a report on the state of the diocese entrusted to him, in the form and at the time determined by the Apostolic See.

Can. 400 §1 Unless the Apostolic See has decided otherwise, in the year in which he is bound to submit the report to the Supreme Pontiff, the diocesan Bishop is to go to Rome to venerate the tombs of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and to present himself to the Roman Pontiff.

Can. 401 §1 A diocesan Bishop who has completed his seventy-fifth year of age is requested to offer his resignation from office to the Supreme Pontiff, who, taking all the circumstances into account, will make provision accordingly.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P1D.HTM

[pnwmom]

65. Right. That was my point. Hunthausen was my local example. If I didn't know

Church hiring law before then, I did afterwards.

So I'm curious how the Church thinks it can wiggle out of this one.

[elfin]

15. Surprise?? Nah

It is all about power over masses and so much international wealth that no one can even imagine. That wealth gives them secular power globally via funds and investments.

Even if the masses should ever defect, the power and wealth remain.

I have devout Catholic friends who tend to the multitudes in pantries and prison sand the streets in the very best examples of Jesus. And yet they defend the institution they serve, even though that institution does not deserve their loyalty in my opinion.

They know I am a "heathen" and pray for me mightily and never try to convert me. A mystery to me because they are intelligent, multi-talented people who excel in many other venues including Science aside from their church.

But only their church satisfies some greater unmet need that I do not crave.

[MindandSoul]

17. But what about the cover up and crimes that happened PRIOR to his becoming the "head of State?"

[ZeitgeistObserver]

22. Unfortunately the Vatican is right.

And nobody is going to invade the place. Actually you'd have to invade Italy first, and then the Vatican.
It can't be done from the outside, the church would have to fall apart from the inside.
This isn't going to crash the church. I doubt even a direct connection to the Nazis coming to light would do that.

If the church ever goes down, it will be over money. The Vatican is probably the biggest land-owner in most of Europe, and there have been a lot of hints about money-laundering and other such shenanigans with 'God's bank'.

[RainDog]

29. the church has already had to sell off properties in Ireland

b/c the judgment against the church is at around a billion dollars, just in Ireland. that's not what's been paid out, but that's the number that has been touted via newsers in GB.

Since the 1950s, the church has, according to data on the pedophile scandals, paid out a billion dollars.

Ireland used to have a lot of seminaries and they sent priests around the world. Now they're down to one. Young people have turned away from the church - and no doubt more will do so b/c the Archbishop in Dublin just noted he was aware of the way pedophiles were dealt with and he was in meetings at which children were told not to talk to anyone about their abuse except for a priest.

I hope the church is bankrupted too.

In any case, the church's claim to have any authority to speak to women about their reproductive choices is a joke. A sick joke, but a joke nevertheless. The church refused to protect the children who were their charges while telling women whether or not they could use birth control?

what a fucking sick world view.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

32. The Church is still the biggest landowner in Ireland.

Selling off some property to pay the bills is fairly routine. It wasn't a legal judgement.

That 'world view' has been around for 2000 years, so you could say it's almost embedded in the DNA.

[RainDog]

38. what are you talking about?

what "world view" has been around for 2000 years? The one that says religion makes it okay to shit on women?

[ZeitgeistObserver]

42. The 'world view' YOU mentioned.

The RC church has been around for 2000 years, and while you and I may not agree with it there are a billion catholics that do.

[RainDog]

45. the world view I mentioned... that it's okay to abuse children and deny equality to women?

because some entitled men are doing it?

that's been around MUCH longer than 2000 years.

nothing in christian doctrine is new. it was all circulating in various religious forms long before a mere 2000 years.

but it wasn't the only view.

and, thankfully, most of us no longer accept the cultural mores of stone aged tribes.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

47. Yes, that one.

And I was only referring to the RC church, which has been around that long. Not any previous beliefs by other religions or cultures.

[spanone]

24. i have declared spanone immune from the pope

[Bluebear]

60. you said it.

[LiberalFighter]

26. He might be exempt but his minions and property across the world are not.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

34. Interesting idea.

But it all belongs, at least in theory, to the worldwide communion of catholics. Collectively owned. Grabbing it would be a good way to set off a religious war.

[marybourg]

36. Isn't the Pope infallible? nt.

[pnwmom]

57. Not according to Catholic theology. Twice in all of Church history,

both several hundred years ago, a Pope set out a particular doctrine under the claim of infallibility -- for that particular doctrine. But infallibility has never been something that applies to the Papacy in general or any Pope in particular.

[ladjf]

39. When we were kids we called that "kings ex". nt

[ladjf]

40. Does the Haig take cases like this? nt

[DURHAM D]

49. Al Haig is deceased. But there is always Den Haag/The Hague. nt

[ladjf]

93. Did you have a good time being a jackass? Do you feel superior

now? People like you are why I have almost quit posting on DU.

Get a life.

[flvegan]

53. Protect the Church as a business' CEO would.

Faith, God, the Bible and Jesus left that institution a long, long time ago it seems to me.

[laylah]

54. If anyone cares to contact

this pedophile supporting asshole (and I am a recovering Catholic), here is one avenue...

[e-mail]

edited for spelling

[old mark]

61. Just like the Mafia. nt

[lunatica]

62. Lawyer up Pope. That's the modern way to deal with mea culpa crap

May this bring the Papacy and everything it rots to an end. How typical of the guilty to just throw each individual diocese under the bus. Well they'll all go down now.

[western mass]

63. *Now* I understand why the Church is so against birth control

Pedophiles need a steady supply of fresh, young bodies.

[TorchTheWitch]

91. no, the Catholic church has always preferred to breed its followers

rather than recruit them. Indoctrination from birth makes for more loyal and much more pliable followers.

[leeroysphitz]

66. Abra cadabra! Christ's vicar is immune to Earthly laws. Ta-dah!!!

[we can do it]

68. Scary Fucking Freak, Isn't He?

[MajorChode]

73. That's why George Lucas cast him as Emperor Palpatine

[GreenPartyVoter]

72. Oh, well if the _Vatican_ says so...

:eyes:

[comrade snarky]

75. Well, the Vatican is it's own country

So I suppose they can do what they want with him.

Though it does bring up the delicious idea of a pope who can't leave Vatican City without being arrested on his way to the airport. Hiding behind all that gold.

[TorchTheWitch]

92. They rarely leave it anyway

To do business with the Pope you must go to the Pope. And the fatter the check you bring with you as a "donation" the closer you get to actually seeing him... and a very precious few do.

[AngryOldDem]

77. Could the UN or the Hague do anything?

Dammit -- this guy is NOT above the law.

And I LOVE the claim that he is not responsible for individual priests or dioceses. What are they -- independent contractors? Funny how the Church can pick and choose what it wants to believe about itself, but its laity can't.

Done with the hypocrisy.

EDIT: Typo

[walldude]

82. Tried to rec but too late... Can you imagine if they were some other group

like teachers? Say teachers were molesting kids and the Teachers Union decided just to move them to new schools. Can you imagine the headlines? This is just sick We have gone so far over the edge that child molestation is ok.. in the name of religion. If there is a god and the lightning bolts don't start flying soon, he's going to have some serious explaining to do when I cross his path.

[Initech]

83. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nazi popes fuck off!!!

[OneBlueSky]

85. hey . . . dude's infallible . . . what he says goes . . . just ask him . . .

reminds me of when Nixon said that anything the president does, by virture of the fact that the president is the one doing it, cannot be illegal . . .

must be nice to have an out like this for all of your actions . . . no matter what you do, it's okay because of the office you hold . . . matters of ethics, morals, or just common sense have no place in the discussion . . . "I am what I am and that's all that I am, which means I'm right . . . so there!" . . .

sort of a junior high approach to conducting your affairs and evaluating your actions, don'tcha think? . . .

[Warren DeMontague]

87. Okay, now he's TRYING to look like Emperor Palpatine.

That picture just begs for some purple force lightning.

[gtar100]

94. Hahaha - "In my little world, I am the KING!!!"

Pope Ratzo: "I am the Pope! I am the Pope! I am the Pope! I AM THE POPE!! Woo-Hoo!!!"

[lib2DaBone]

95. How come the Pope looks like Count Dracula?

I vant to bite you neck...

[havocmom]

96. How nice for him. I suppose at his age, he doesn't want to travel anyway

Vatican laws not same as global laws.

Edited to add: IF he didn't do anything wrong, why does the Vatican need to assert immunity from testifying?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

100. And, he's got an army of ruler wielding penguins to back him up.

"When I saw that penguin coming at me with a ruler, I was outta there." Frank Zappa

[BurtWorm]

103. What a sweet looking man.