Thank God for the military aristocracy, that they didn't have DADT...

[Robeson]

...in ancient Macedonia. Because every war college - in every nation - wouldn't be able to masturbate over the strategy and tactics of Alexander the Great - arguably the greatest military mind ever - if Macedonia had DADT.

[LakeSamish706]

1. I'm guessing that you watched Rachel tonight. lol She was awesome as usual.

Thoughts on Gen. John Sheehan? This guy has to be a Republican, there is no other argument for his line of bullshit to Congress.

[Robeson]

2. Actually, I've just wanted to point out the disconnect between our military...

...and the history of their own profession. But I'm sure Rachel nailed it to, as usual.

[LakeSamish706]

3. Sorry, I guess I read more into your OP than I should have, but yep Rachel was awesome tonight. n/t

[glowing]

4. Actually, I'm not sure how much of it he believed or not... He was looking down

and reading from notes. Perhaps it was the talking points sent out from the Pentagon.

Maybe it really is how he feels.

But the old guys in the Pentagon can't get past the mental image when someone says gay. Somehow they are crazed sex fiends... no one will be safe in group shower. But somehow the policy of not telling will make it all better... Better for who? The old guys in the Pentagon who can't get past their mental imagined idea of gay sex when they hear the word gay?

Stupid old people and their outdated bigotry.

[LakeSamish706]

5. Well to be honest I am both old and straight, but I totally believe that anyone has a right

to whatever sexual world that they live in. I don't believe that being GLBT or Straight is a choice in life anymore than I believe your choice in the color of your skin is. We don't get to chose, and so what if we did? We are all people and we should treat each other with the respect that we expect, that's plain and simple truth in my mind.

[glowing]

6. Statistically speaking, you aren't in the "majority" group of old who think this way.

And since the olds still make up the majority of important positions in employable structure, progress can be gilted.

[Cid_B]

7. Most people don't see it as clearly cut at you do...

One of my Soldiers explained it to me once like this.

He doesn't think he's going to get raped. He's pretty confident he won't get groped etc... He compared it to ordering a female to shower and bunk with a male. Yes, nothing will probably happen because most people can keep their hands to themselves but there is still a comfort and emotional issue. Just telling that hpothetical female to "suck it up and deal with it" wouldn't be acceptable and thats how he felt this issue was being dealt with.

[Lex]

8. men, yes, even gay men, aren't females

so that soldier's analogy is just not applicable

"comfort and emotional issues" sounds more like when white soldiers didn't want to share showers and space with black soldiers

[Cid_B]

12. That's a pretty solid example right there...

It's bullshit that if an average Soldier is uncomfortable showering/bunking with a homosexual that they should be called a bigot.

[Lex]

13. and a soldier that didn't want to shower/bunk with a black man was a racist

deal with it

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

15. It most definitely doesn't have to address everyone's concerns.

The bigots and the racists have to get over it or STFU. That's how the military was integrated. Uh, it didn't happen by "addressing everyone's concerns."

[Cid_B]

16. Right.. they went with your plan of...

... " next Wednesday we'll just throw em in there, I'm sure it will work out fine"

Crack a book...

[Lex]

17. don't put words in my mouth

it shows you have nothing

[chollybocker]

18. If a soldier perceives the act of showering (i.e., cleaning oneself) as sexual...

... that's THEIR PROBLEM, not the problem of any homosexuals who might be in the vacinity at the time.

If "gay" makes you think of sexual contact, that's YOUR PROBLEM to deal with.

[vadawg]

9. pretty good explanation there, it dosent really matter if anything happens or not

but the impropiety and the comfort level... what did you say to him in reply...

[Cid_B]

10. We talked about the different ways to implement..

.. or whether they should change anything at all. Most in the group seemed happy with DADT. They knew there there are homosexual Soldiers but the anonimity was enough to keep everything moving. There was a difference in their mind between "maybe / could be / who knows?" and "absolutely / it's checked in the file "

Also, Soldiers were concerned that they would be unfairly targeted for persecution against a protected class in a non-DADT military. In other words, they felt concern that a homosexual Soldier who performed poorly and didn't rate advancement/promotion/awards etc.. would claim persecution from his superiors.

Talked about the extreme options in implementation. Straight Male barracks, Gay Male Barracks, Straight Female barracks, straight female barracks ( same for showers )

No one could really come up with a smooth idea for transition. Basically we agreed that we understood why it took so long because there doesn't seem to be any good options and as I said before Soldiers didn't like the idea of just being told that their views didn't matter. One guy said he didn't feel like being societies little social experiment to gain justification for the civilians.

It went on and on.... One of those 2 am conversations....

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chollybocker]

20. Do you really believe that gay people cannot control themselves in showers?

What are you doing here?

[Cid_B]

21. While I wont speak for VADawg...

... I will refer you to #10. The issue doesn't seem to be a fear of being groped etc.. etc..

The issue was that they they are uncomfortable being naked in front of someone who may or may not find them sexually attractive. As stated before the comparison is telling a female to shower with a male. Will the male rape and molest the girl? Probably not... but will the girl feel uncomfortable being naked and showering with the guy? Odds are yes and telling her to "get over it" isn't a solution.

The shower thing is a small part of repealing DADT but its a big one for your average Joe on the ground. That's reality.

[vadawg]

22. yup its the female showering in full view of males or having to sit on the potty in front of males

and you are right if it was a female expressing that she would feel uncomfortable people would not make all sorts of accusations..

[Lex]

23. oh nevermind

hopeless

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

27. Oh my, he might be "uncomfortable." Please do get him a fainting couch.

nt

[vadawg]

28. so i guess you are okay with women feeling uncomfortable if guys just walk into the showers at bally

fitness, who cares if the women feel uncomfortable. Isnt it the same thing...

[Lex]

31. Once again, this is not a male - female issue. Your premise is faulty. nt

[vadawg]

33. no its who objectifies who, who finds who attractive, whether male or female

or do you not understand that both sexes can be uncomfortable if having to shower in front of someone who prefers the showereees sex, it dosent matter whether its male and female, male and male or female and female, its an issue thats going to come up and to the majority of the world something people can understand...

[Lex]

37. Who "objectifies" who?

Seriously?

[vadawg]

38. what you dont know that some people objectify others, where have you been

seriously?

[Lex]

45. People steal too. Should we accommodate that behavior as well?

You know, because it happens, let's make some policy that essentially makes it okay.

[vadawg]

48. got no idea where you are going, what the hell does stealing have to do with people

feeling uncomfortable showering or pooping in front of people who may be attracted to them... you really dont understand how attraction works and how uncomfortable unwanted attraction can be even if its only perceived..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. Ha. No shit. I thought the military were supposed to be trained to ENDURE discomfort!

Like the IDF. They, truly, are tough SOBs.

[vadawg]

56. so i guess female soldiers should just endure if they have to shower in front of guys

after all they are trained to be tough, you really dont get how people can feel uncomfortable when they feel they are being looked at sexually whether they are or not,

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. How do the Israelis manage? -nt

[vadawg]

59. totally different culture, you do realise that compared to a lot of countries

americans are pretty prudish in their attitudes to the body, and hell some cultures are even more prudish than the american culture. The IDF is a very different fish than the US military, and the subcultures within differ enormously as well..

[Lex]

65. Yes, this "culture" argument is what was trotted out to argue against integrating the military.

Interestingly enough.

[TexasObserver]

74. Do you really think men in America are that nervous about gays?

[Cid_B]

26. Oh come on...

Don't run off... Explain to all of us how your view is the only one that should be tolerated and everyone just needs "deal with it." You could lead the charge for the repeal of DADT if you could solve this issue in one swoop with your mighty brain.

[Lex]

29. Because my view says that BIGOTRY and RACISM shouldn't be accomodated.

So what if it makes bigots and racists uncomfortable?

I don't care if they don't like it. They don't have to.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

32. Are they proposing that men and women shower together as part of DADT?

No, I don't think so.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vadawg]

35. no but tell me whats the difference between a woman showering in the same cubicle as a guy

and a guy showering in the same cubicle as a gay guy, both can feel equally uncomfortable even if neither of the other people leers or makes advances or even cares..

[Lex]

40. Well maybe you don't know, but a woman has lady parts. And men have man parts.

That would be the difference.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

47. "It all comes down to parts."

LOL.

[Toasterlad]

66. Let Me Try and Explain This In Terms You Will Understand.

See Dick. Dick is a man. See Jane. Jane is a woman. Dick is bigger and stronger than Jane. Jane gets scared when she and Dick are naked together, because it would be hard for her to stop Dick if Dick tried to touch her.

See Dan. Dan is also a man. Dan is about as big as Dick. Dick doesn't like Dan seeing him naked, but Dick could more or less hold his own if Dan tried to touch Dick.

Your analogy is stupid, and you and your fellow Dicks need to get over it.

[Lex]

68. Isn't it just sad this has to be explained?

And that supposedly brave strong military guys are so very worried about being "uncomfortable" (due to their prejudices)?

I don't get it.

[donco6]

77. LOL!

:rofl:

Well said.

[Cid_B]

43. The point being...

... that one is not a bigot for being uncomfortable being naked in front of someone who may or may not find them sexually appealing. You still don't have any ideas beyond "Fuck the rest of 'em. I want my way"

[Lex]

50. I don't wish to accommodate bigotry. If you call that "my way," so be it. nt

[Cid_B]

53. Much easier to harumph from your high horse...

.. and claim yourself to be holier-than-thou than to come up with a solution.

[Lex]

63. Not being a bigot isn't being on a "high horse."

Maybe from your perspective it is. Sorry about that.

[Cid_B]

24. We aren't up to Starship Troopers (the movie)

social standards quite yet....

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/104171/starship_troopers_shower_scene/

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

71. Fear only of some feeling existing in someone else's mind? Sissies. -nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. So, bottom line, you support DADT? -nt

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. You sound like Pinocchio being interrogated by Prince Charming in Shrek the 3rd. -nt

[vadawg]

49. no i think the answer i gave was straight forward, i no more want to shower in front of anyone who

may make me uncomfortable or whom i make uncomfortable regardless of their sex..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

51. So, bottom line, you support DADT? -nt

[vadawg]

54. i support the concept of dont ask, dont care and its nobodies business unless it effects cohesion

and fighting ability, same as in my job, people who are in relationships who are different ranks cant work together etc etc etc.... so ill say it again for you its nobodys business unless it effects the unit cohesion and fighting ability... hope you understand this..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. As it is now, gay soldiers keep their mouths shut, but somebody finds out they're gay, rats them,

they get thrown out and lose their pensions.

What do you think about this state of things?

[vadawg]

57. lol did you not read the post you replied to, i dont care if they are gay

unless they are messing up the cohesion of the unit in the same way that anyone else in a relationship would and does then i dont care, as long as they do their job then its dont ask, dont care and dont tell...

[Bluenorthwest]

64. You say 'don't care' but you are here spewing all manner of care

and concern and frankly, neurosis, about this issue. Don't care, but spend much time whining about how much you do care? Do you see the problem with claiming you don't care after whining on and on about showers and sleeping quarters and toilets? So many cares expressed, repeated, and then denied.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

73. "Why I never....!!!" Somebody get a big ass 1950s couch for a couple of these guys to faint on. nt

[Toasterlad]

67. So...YES, You Support DADT.

[Cid_B]

60. A complex question...

deserves a complex answer. Sorry if you can't handle anything more than black or white...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. A complex question? Yeah, like "Where is Shrek?" is a complex question. -nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. So, bottom line, you support DADT? -nt

[Cid_B]

62. Has that ever worked...?

I know it's not the first time you've tried it.. let alone the other posts in this thread alone.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. Yes, it has worked. A bit, at least.

It's like judo. Sometimes you don't get an Ippon, but seven Yukos are satisfying enough. And hey, sometimes you get a Waza-ari and don't even know it!

It's not black and white, you know. Glass half full and all that.

[Cid_B]

75. Holy shit... it worked...

So much for vadawg...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. HA! IPPON!

[glowing]

61. Change that scenario to college.. Now, a gay male student is rooming with a stranger

who is straight. Does the school care about anyone's comfort... NO they would be more scared of a discrimination law suit by the gay student.

Mainly I think its the gay men thing that hangs people up. When a male soldier says he has a problem bunking with a gay man its because his mind goes exactly to the issue I brought up.. the straight's mind going to the image of gay sex... Not that the person he's rooming with will save his life... AND our military works with other military units around the world. Those other countries don't care and allow gay soldiers... Also, as it is now, a gay person can serve, just not tell.. So, exactly what is the difference now other than the straight soldier actually knows that the person is gay. AND do you think gay men are going to hit on straight men.

Honestly, its all in their heads... Ask many females if they would be uncomfortable sleeping/ showering in the same living area as a lesbian and they will say they don't care. Honestly gay persons are not sex crazed sexual deviants. Its not a disease. AND if you as a straight are uncomfortable, that's your bigoted bias. I think our military are put in many more dangerous uncomfortable spots by their commanders. AND if you are that bigoted that you couldn't know that your fellow soldier was gay (because they wouldn't have to hide it anymore), then don't join. Don't serve.

[sarge43]

76. Late to the table

Just a reminder, it wasn't old people who murdered Matthew Shepard.

Things would be so much easier if all the bigots and fools were limited to just one group, but unfortunately they aren't.

[cemaphonic]

19. Likely Frederick the Great too.

[Swamp Rat]

36. LOL!!!

:applause:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. You may forgive me if I want to kick this thread because it gives me (and surely others) joy.

:evilgrin: