Why I Want Health Care Reform to Pass

[BurtWorm]

There's no question the insurance industry needs to be reformed--although, personally, I think it needs to be reformed out of existence. The American health care financing system has proven itself to be one of the most impractical, self-defeating financing systems in the world. It makes no sense to pay for-profit companies to pay for your health care. You are, in essence, putting them on the dole--on YOUR dole. And you wonder why the cost of health care has gone up? It's because we've allowed an expensive, money-sucking bureaucracy to come between patient and provider. Wingnuts think it would be worse to put the government between patient and provider, but no one ever asks them why they think public financing could possibly be more of a drain on private individuals than an unregulated free market.

There is absolutely NO FUCKING QUESTION (pardon my shouting) that the US healthcare financing industry needs to be reformed. Out of existence.

The question is, do we get closer to that by allowing the present legislation to be defeated? Do the contradictions need to be heightened and highlighted for the long-suffering American people to erase the insurance industry entirely? Do you really think the American people, half of whom are too ignorant, frankly, or stupid, unfortunately, to tell the real difference between the blood-sucking privateers who are now and for the foreseeable future the culprits behind the outrageously high cost of American health care and the public interest (a.k.a) behind the financing of their beloved Medicare. They are too stupid and ignorant to realize that the reason Medicare is endangered is because the blood suckers are making all health care too expensive.

So I do not trust Americans, I'm sorry to say, to do the right thing on this. Ever. I don't trust Congress to ever get it more right than they're going to get it now--if they can even do it now. If Americans can't read the real difference between the blood suckers and the public interest now, they are never going to get it. You can heighten the contradictions to the moon--they are NEVER going to get it.

This bill needs to pass. Americans need to see a difference. Will the bill make that difference--that positive difference? I don't know. I do know they won't see one single bit of difference if this bill doesn't pass.

[Andy823]

1. I agree.

Plus if the don't pass this now, it won't happen,period! If the democrats blow this one, many of them will find themselves out of a job come next year. Republicans will take back at least the senate, and if that happens nothing gets done on HRC. If they also take back the WH in 2012, the HRC is over and we will not see it come up again for decades, or longer. NO, we need to pass this now, and then do all we can to improve it over the coming years. Failure to pass the bill would be bad not only for the democrats in D.C., but for the entire country. If this bill is passed, and improved on, many of the people who are against it now will change their minds and that would show just how much the right was trying to lie in order to make this bill fail for the insurance companies who pay them to make sure things stay the same with no changes. Granted many who are against it now will never change their minds, even if they lose their insurance, have to sell everything they own, and end up on the streets, but many will change their minds, and that's a good thing.

[zipplewrath]

2. Another view

This bill is a step towards permanently entrenching the insurance companies in our health care industry. Worse, it could be the basis for a future GOP congress to convert medicare into a publicly financed, privately run, set of health insurance plans. Even going so far as to a "cadillac tax" of its own on people with supplemental "medigap" plans.

[BurtWorm]

3. So how do you propose to get them the fuck out the way if you pass nothing?

You want to snap your magic fingers and make them disappear? Or snap your magic fingers and make Congress make them disappear? Good luck to you. I hope you really have magic fingers!

[zipplewrath]

5. Supercede them

Don't mandate that they exist for one.

[BurtWorm]

8. So you are proposing to snap your fingers, in other words.

As I say, good luck to you.

[BurtWorm]

12. I'm sincerely interested to learn why you think this bill mandates the existence of private insurers

Do you mean just because it regulates them? Because it doesn't outlaw them? Because it doesn't create a single payer system? Or is there language that protects them from future regulation toward a single payer system?

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. If this bill passes it will END reform for the next generation.

The repukes will be crying 'See what the Dems did to us'; the Dems will be protesting 'But we DID fix it'; and there will be NO fixes to the basic problems, and there will be no medicare expansion, public option and definitely no single payer while costs continue to rise BECAUSE we are priming the insurance industry pumps with billions of new dollars.

Damned if we do, and damned if we don't, and the only guarantee is that it will get worse.

Remember 'welfare reform'?

[DevonRex]

6. Kucinich completely disagrees with you. nt

[laughingliberal]

13. Perhaps some of us can think for ourselves?

The appeals to authority around here are over the top. Yes, I'll listen to what elected officials and others whose opinions I trust have to say. But, at the end of the day, I decide for myself. Last week Kucinich planned to vote 'no' on the bill. Today, he believes his best bet is to help pass the bill and hope he can force reform from it in the future. I respect his position in both instances. But I don't have to form a Conga line and dance in step behind him or anyone else.

[DevonRex]

16. Ah, yes, the "appeal to authority" meme again. Funny how folks listened to Dennis

when he was "agin" it. Now if anybody mentions he's "fer" it, we're appealing to authority. That happened to me most recently when I mentioned that labor leaders are for it.

I think union leaders listen to their membership. And I think Kucinich listened to his constituents and to Pelosi and to Obama and changed his mind because of that.

I'm also thinking that if labor leaders support this bill and Kucinich changed his mind then maybe, just maybe, some people might want to find out why.

[laughingliberal]

21. Funny how I wasn't one of them

My opinion of the HCR bill was formed without input from DK. His vote is his business. There were, also, some here who hurled the worst insults imaginable at Kucinich and his wife, for God's sake, when he was planning to vote 'no' who now think he's just peachy. He is one person with one opinion who makes his decisions on what votes to cast based on many factors. I can respect his decisions, either way, whether I agree with that decision or not. Sorry, I seem to be in a minority with that attitude but there you have it.

As for the unions, they are now examining the reconciliation bill and trying to decide on their support or non-support based on how the excise tax issue played out. And they don't make up my mind for me, either.

I read the bill. I'm able to see some unintended consequences some people don't see coming and I have grave misgivings about it. That does not change cause the wind's coming from a different direction today.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Not completely.

I wish i bookmarked it, but his speech two days before his talk with Obama made it clear that if it passes there will remain dozens on loopholes for the insurance companies to take advantage of, and the bill will help far fewer people than it is touted to.

A private conversation with Obama did not change that. What DID change was the political aspect of not handing the republicans a victory over the administration that would cripple it, possibly fatally, in the next two elections.

But the fact is, this is the END of health care reform, if it passes. There will be NO fixes down the road - particularly since the supremes removed all limitations on corporate financing of elections - and the corporatists in the party will stand in the way of any attempt to address the very real problems in the bill.

Of course, if it was defeated the republicans would claim a victory and call it a vindication of their position that nobody wants health care reform, and hammer the dems with it in the fall, so what we have is our choice in the means of suicide - pass a corporatist bill that will hurt health care reform, or not pass any bill and lose congress in the fall.

Dennis (rightly, I believe) chose the former. That doesn't mean it is not still suicide.

[BurtWorm]

19. People put way too much faith in the useless fakes we elect to Congress.

Of course there will be no reform down the road if it's left in the hands of the lobby-prone law givers.

The only way real reform is going to happen is if it starts out here among us. Congress won't do it unless they feel the heat. Don't blame Congress. Blame the useless fakes among the American people who can't get off their fat asses because they can't tell them from a hole in the ground.

[BurtWorm]

7. Welfare reform was not a Democratic issue. Health care reform is.

Passing welfare reform was doing the Republicans' dirty work for them. NOT passing health care reform is doing their dirty work for them.

[PufPuf23]

9. The HCR Bill if passed is regressive

for health care and the economy.

As the HCR Bill is likely to pass, the Democratic Party will be responsible for creating a firewall against future health insurance reform.

[BurtWorm]

10. And if the Dems lose one or both chambers in November and the WH in 2012

how many more generations are you willing to wait before Congress tackles health care reform again? You think the ReTeaParticans will be up for passing the real reform we need?

[laughingliberal]

14. If they lose in 2010 & 2012

the Republicans will go right to work extending the corporate friendly parts of the bill and pushing for more privatization of Medicare. I'm not convinced we aren't going to see this from some of our Democrats, anyway.

[BurtWorm]

17. Who do you have faith in to get real reform passed?

Congress? The American people? Which of those two groups do you believe will light a real fire under health care in this country, burn the whole system down and rebuild the single payer system we really need on top of it?

PS: I don't trust either one, just to let you know where I am, based on 50 years experience with both of those groups.

[laughingliberal]

20. I did trust President Obama when he was running for the Presidency

I supported him in our caucuses over Hillary based on his stated plans for HCR. Now? Who the hell knows? The progressive caucus in the House seemed to be working on writing a bill that was a good start given that we weren't going to see single payer. I can't believe I saw no concessions to the progressive caucus at all.

I have almost 40 years of voting as a Democrat and always considered the tack of 'they're all in it together' to be a cop out for people who were too lazy to get informed. Now? Seems they were right, all along.

I don't have an answer. When the progressives in the House and the Senate outnumber the Blue Dogs and still get rolled by the White House and the Blue Dogs, I really have no answers. But I think we're in for a huge mess after passage of this bill. Despite the popular idea here that we can start improving this bill once we pass it, there is far more reason to believe we will see it get worse over time as premiums continue to rise. We are giving the seal of approval to the 'free market' approach to health care that got us to this point. I expect we will see them keep going further down that road after this becomes law.

[BurtWorm]

22. You trusted Obama on health care reform?

I thought that was his weakest claim to progressivism. I am not surprised that he's turned out to be more centrist than he promised. He wasn't all that progressive a Senator, after all.

The main reason to pass the bill is to shove a defeat down the Republican throats. I admit it. I think it would be better for Republicans if this bill goes down in flames. Everyone will rightly think--no, **know for a fact**--that Democrats are weaklings.

If the bill goes down and things go on as they've been going on, it's going to get worse for most Americans who need health care financing reform. That's just the way it's been going. This reform will be a categorical failure if their plight gets worse in the wake of it. If it improves, then reform will be at least a little positive.

As for the real reform that's needed, it's just not going to happen without major reform among the American people and their fucked up way of thinking about the world. You can't legislate smarts. It's going to have to be a cultural revolution from the ground up.

[laughingliberal]

23. His health care reform plan was more progressive than Hillary's specifically the public option

It was down to the 2 of them by the time for our caucuses.

I'm pissed off about being put in the position of having to support something that is not in the best interests of the working class just so we can 'shove a defeat down the Republican's throats.' The damned football game mentality surrounding public policy is sickening to me. We have now become just like the RWers we laughed at for voting against their own self interests just because it was their 'team.'

Things are going to get worse in health care for average people whether the bill passes or not. What will change is many people who still can't afford to access health care will now be spending money on a policy they can't afford to use.

As for the ground up thing, there is massive support for a bill that includes a public option and massive non-support for a bill with a mandate that does not include a public option. So, ground up support for legislation moves them not at all. "Them' being both sides. They will do what they want. They will represent the big money people and they will screw us. A pox on both their houses, AFAIC, now.

My advice to those young enough is get the training you need in a highly skilled occupation and start the process of emigrating. Those of us too old? Well, the future is bleak here in the good, old Corporate States of America.

[BurtWorm]

25. Support for a bill that includes the public option and $1 will get you a cup of coffee.

That's how things go in this country. Sure most people support good things and good ideas, when you sit down and explain them patiently and slowly. But it's the idiots whose rampages against common sense who get listened to and whose ideas get adopted.

I'm sorry, but this country is fucked up and always will be. I don't expect perfection from it. I don't even expect half-baked perfection. I expect shit and am pleasantly surprised when all I get is gas.

[PufPuf23]

28. I am gobsmacked by the waste of political capital

by the Obama Administration.

The Democratic Party needs to put its own house in order for "real" health care reform (and to maintain majorities in Congress and control of the WH).

The HCR Bill as proposed is similar to GOP bill from a generation ago than what was proposed by FDR and what is standard (in various formats) for other modern industrial nations.

We do not need a HC system that is uniquely American, we need a health care system that works, is predictable, humane, and affordable.

[BurtWorm]

29. There's no fucking time to put the house in order.

It's way past time for that.

Anyone who expects this bill to be anything more than a symbolic victory or loss is in for severe disappointment.

This is the American system we're talking about--the American system of government and discourse. One of the clunkiest, most excruciatingly lunkheaded systems in the world. Do I have to actually point this out to anybody? Is no one paying attention?

[laughingliberal]

24. +1 nt

[hustle13]

11. I am torn

[BurtWorm]

15. The worried well are in every class, but the better off you are economically

the better off your health is. So serial doctor visits from upper class worry-warts are ok with you, but not from lower class worry-warts, even though both are a drain on the system?

One of the major reasons health care costs are so high is that the costs are spread among people who need the system most. If everyone shared in the burden of health care, the costs would spread among people who don't use the system and therefore don't drain it. Private insurance was based on this precept originally, but we see what happened to that idea. Truly, the only way health care financing can come down is if everyone pays into the system. Are you willing to force working people who are healthy and don't have insurance to pay into the system out of their own pockets, as this bill is going to do? Where's the liberty in that? Why not spread the costs all the way across the board, take it out of our taxes, and never have to worry about any kind of health care costs ever again? I'll tell you why not: your Republican friends are idiots, that's why not. Slaves to "free markets." Your pals have no common sense. They're all reflex. Republicans, don't kid yourselves. You guys are the robots. And we free souls on the left have to suffer because you do as you are commanded and get in the fucking way.

PS: I appreciate your sharing your thoughts. :toast:

[hansberrym]

26. "and never have to worry about any kind of health care costs ever again?"

Are you serious? You can't be that foolish to beleive what you wrote.


Do you not worry at all that the US is going broke and will very likely not be able to keep the promises it has already made to seniors and government retirees? Are you not making plans for your own retirement regardless of what the government has promised you on paper?


The price of freedom is constant vigilence. However the government is robbing us blind right now by taking taxes awhile making promises they can not possibly keep.


The Republicans/free market may rob you another way, but that doesn't mean we should trust that the government won't screw us over.

[BurtWorm]

27. Do members of other industrialized economies with national health or single payer worry about health

care costs the way Americans do?