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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:16 PM
Original message
Fifteen Reasons it's Time for a US Revolution
Bill Quigley's blog
Fifteen Reasons it's Time for a US Revolution
by Bill Quigley | March 8, 2010 - 9:44am
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/27209/bill_quigley/fifteen_reasons_its_time_for_a_us_revolution

It is time for a revolution. Government does not work for regular people. It appears to work quite well for big corporations, banks, insurance companies, military contractors, lobbyists, and for the rich and powerful. But it does not work for people.

The 1776 Declaration of Independence stated that when a long train of abuses by those in power evidence a design to reduce the rights of people to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it is the peoples right, in fact their duty to engage in a revolution.

Martin Luther King, Jr., said forty three years ago next month that it was time for a radical revolution of values in the United States. He preached "a true revolution of values will soon cause us to question the fairness and justice of many of our past and present policies." It is clearer than ever that now is the time for radical change.

Look at what our current system has brought us and ask if it is time for a revolution?

Over 2.8 million people lost their homes in 2009 to foreclosure or bank repossessions - nearly 8000 each day - higher numbers than the last two years when millions of others also lost their homes.

At the same time, the government bailed out Bank of America, Citigroup, AIG, Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the auto industry and enacted the troubled asset (TARP) program with $1.7 trillion of our money.

Wall Street then awarded itself over $20 billion in bonuses in 2009 alone, an average bonus on top of pay of $123,000.

At the same time, over 17 million people are jobless right now. Millions more are working part-time when they want and need to be working full-time.

Yet the current system allows one single U.S. Senator to stop unemployment and Medicare benefits being paid to millions.

There are now 35 registered lobbyists in Washington DC for every single member of the Senate and House of Representatives, at last count 13,739 in 2009. There are eight lobbyists for every member of Congress working on the health care fiasco alone.

At the same time, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that corporations now have a constitutional right to interfere with elections by pouring money into races.

The Department of Justice gave a get out of jail free card to its own lawyers who authorized illegal torture.

At the same time another department of government, the Pentagon, is prosecuting Navy SEALS for punching an Iraqi suspect.

The US is not only involved in senseless wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, the U.S. now maintains 700 military bases world-wide and another 6000 in the US and our territories. Young men and women join the military to protect the U.S. and to get college tuition and healthcare coverage and killed and maimed in elective wars and being the world's police. Wonder whose assets they are protecting and serving?

In fact, the U.S. spends $700 billion directly on military per year, half the military spending of the entire world - much more than Europe, China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, and Venezuela - combined.

The government and private companies have dramatically increased surveillance of people through cameras on public streets and private places, airport searches, phone intercepts, access to personal computers, and compilation of records from credit card purchases, computer views of sites, and travel.

The number of people in jails and prisons in the U.S. has risen sevenfold since 1970 to over 2.3 million. The US puts a higher percentage of our people in jail than any other country in the world.

The tea party people are mad at the Republicans, who they accuse of selling them out to big businesses.

Democrats are working their way past depression to anger because their party, despite majorities in the House and Senate, has not made significant advances for immigrants, or women, or unions, or African Americans, or environmentalists, or gays and lesbians, or civil libertarians, or people dedicated to health care, or human rights, or jobs or housing or economic justice. Democrats also think their party is selling out to big business.

Forty three years ago next month, Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. preached in Riverside Church in New York City that "a time comes when silence is betrayal." He went on to condemn the Vietnam War and the system which created it and the other injustices clearly apparent. "We as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing oriented" society to a "person oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism and militarism are incapable of being conquered."
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. not again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkwgTBrW78

"when you talk about destruction ..."
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. One reason why it wont happen...
Not enough people are pissed.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. You'd think it would've happened by now, but
as long as the media spins, distracts and omits reporting on urgent issues...

as long as there is the facade of a 2 party system that the easily-fooled can cling to...

as long as enough chickens love their Colonel Sanders...

it wont happen until after it's too late.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Is this what you want? Truly? Are you sure?
What part will you play in this "Revolution?"

It's a serious question. Can you offer a serious answer?
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I'm only the messenger...
I thought it would make for an interesting discussion.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. People should stop talking about 'revolution'.
It's much more dashing and romantic in the movies than it is in real life.

And the US has ballot boxes. There is no need for any 'revolution.'
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The people who are talking about it
won't be fighting it. They're part of the "Let's you and him fight" movement. Feh!
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. you dont need to fight a revolution
revolutions can happen through strikes, riots, unionizing. That had a revolution in the Ukraine and not a single shot was fired.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. Well since it died, I'd say it wasn't very effective.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. How did it die?
The people revolted against a candidate that cheated, the opposition took power after protests. The opposition did not please the people so the people voted them out in fair, democratic elections several years later. Hell, here in France we have tried bloody revolts, anarchist communes (the entire city of paris) peaceful rewritings of the constitution.....If first you dont succeed..... Ghandi also led a peaceful revolution. Violence is probably the worst way to revolutionize peoples souls/spirits......
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #59
76. Recent election results changed all that.
No, violence is never the way to change things, because you can't lead, or force, people where they don't want to go.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. what did the recent election change?
yes I know that the party that was forced out by the protests won now, SEVERAL YEARS LATER AFTER THE OPPOSITION SQUANDERED ITS CHANCES. The Orange Revolution was not violent, it was about fighting against cheating. Well, the people that got into power got voted out in elections that were much less fixed than the first time. At least now it is pretty sure that the will of the people is being respected.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #80
96. Well you answered that one yourself.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
85. We can't "fight" a revolution now... the opponents are too well armed..
If we are going to have a full scale revolution it's going to need to be digital. You want to win? Start arming yourself with geeks and hackers. They are the ones who can take down the system.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Yeah, we have ballot boxes...and here we are.
Stuck with a political system responsive only to the needs of the wealthy and the corporations. It's pay to play, and most of us can't afford it. It's a system so corrupt that the corruption isn't even illegal.

The US needs a serious social and political revolution.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. If voting changed anything they would make it illegal

Is that not irrefutably apparent after the last year?
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Precisely. Rig the system so that the dupes continue to think it counts for everything
... when it clearly does not
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Majority rules in a democracy.
You personally may not like how things are decided, but the majority does.

You don't try and stage a revolution. ESPECIALLY since you're a minority.

Claiming elections are rigged is just an excuse.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Not a claim, a fact i.e. in general, but specifically Gore/Bush, Kerry/Bush
Election theft is now a techno science aided by collective denial of those who can't face the reality of a sham, illusory rep democracy where the people have ZERO representation.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. And other dreary excuses.
You know very well the majority of Americans don't think like the posters on here.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. "Excuses?" I haven't a clue as to what you're even driving at
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. There isn't going to be any revolution,
because you don't all think alike, and it's hard for you to accept that.

US is more likely to have a civil war, simply because it's become so polarized.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. ??? I don't think very many Americans share my views at all. So, again, no clue as to your insults.
Not that I give a shit either way...but still
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. ?? i'm not trying to insult you!
Goodness, people are touchy!
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. "...you don't all think alike, and it's hard for you to accept that."
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Well that's hardly an 'insult'.
If I was going to insult you, I'd say much worse.

I was simply replying to your assertion about rigged elections, and how people have no represention.

Until Bush, people never even thot such a thing, and since then computers have come into question. Even Repubs are claiming that.

Simple solution, fix the voting system.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. "fix the voting system"...
Now that would take a revolution.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Oh I don't think so.
Most people would go along with that. Everyone would like to ensure their vote counts.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. But most people do not...
have the power to fix the voting system.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Must be some organizations in the US
that work for 'free and fair' elections, or some governing body or something.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Or government contracts with Deibold n/t
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. Diebold Voting Machine Owner Committed To Give Votes To Bush in 2004
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. It has been sold to Election Systems & Software
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
64. actually look at the polls putting Grayson up against REPUBS
IN A REPUB PRIMARY! It seems that people on the left and the right actually like politicians who fight for the little people and not for big business.... I also demonstrate and strike and write op eds etc. to try and convince people to see things as I and many others on the left do.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. Everybody needs a hobby.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. What are you getting at?
Are you suggesting that my peaceful efforts to bring about change (including the manner in which I teach history) are something to mock? Is your blogging here not the same effort perhaps for different ends?
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. I'm just joking that it will take you a lifetime
to change America to the left.

I'm not blogging, I'm posting, and no I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything.

That would be a pointless exercise.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. sure you are trying to convince people
I already know that my efforts are part of a centuries long struggle, that must be taken up by the young, to ensure that working people get their fair share. I am just following the footsteps laid out centuries ago....world workers unite....
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Nope, just chatting to people.
The world workers 'revolution' is over with, btw.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. when did it end? I am unionized.
Lots of people are unionized. plenty of people are still continuing the struggle. Who do you think has been going on strike in Greece? Who is stiking friday in France?
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. There are still unions around,
but the world-wide 'worker's revolution' is dead.

Capital is mobile, labor isn't.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Bull shit!
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #38
60. Like the majority in the Senate?
eom
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
61. I don't try and stage a violent revolution because I detest bloodshed
I do revolt when I go on strike (this Friday I have decided to teach but to spend part of my lesson telling my students why I, as a teacher, am opposed to government reforms calling for larger and larger class sizes.) When I demonstrate and we close down towns/cities/expressways with demonstrations (legal or illegal) I am trying to revolutionize the way people see things through appealing to their sense of justice in a peaceful way. You gotta get em with Jah or you just gonna fight another day.....
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
45. OK ...agent Mike.
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HeresyLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. LOL cute.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. what kind of a revolution do you want? what form of revolution do you
think would be successful? Please be specific.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think we won't get specifics, you know.
It's more of one of those "Let's you and him fight" things. Lots of that going around these days.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. It's a lot better than the "Go Along" group think we see from some posters.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
46. _
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. A revolution of the poor and homeless...
it seems that those with with the least to lose would be the first in line. Could it be successful? I highly doubt it, to many fat cat coorporations to stop it dead in its tracks along with the "comfortable" middle class.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. But forcing power to reveal its true colors might coax the smug n comfy off their asses
Edited on Mon Mar-08-10 02:06 PM by Echo In Light
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I would hope so n/t
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. one where we win singing "we shall overcome"
in a peaceful march...... as opposed to a bloody revolution. I like Martin Luther King's version of revolution better than that of Malcolm X (I do respect X and understand where he was coming from, I am just a pacifist).
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. The revolution might start with the noblest of intentions, BUT
IMO, it would quickly devolve into a full blown civil war, with 20 million or more dead Americans by the time it was over.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. I disagree.
Edited on Mon Mar-08-10 02:49 PM by chrisa
There are no clear sides that are against each other. This revolution would be fought with ideas. No death or raising a gun necessary. In fact, I would argue that it's already happening. War is the lowest form is idiocy and human interaction, and 99.999% of the US population is above lowering themselves like that.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
84. LOL (nt)
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
97. I agree but...
I think your percentage is way too high.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
10. Can you imagine Americans trying to wage a revolution?
Stopping every five minutes for a Big Gulp and a smoke, coughing and wheezing before the police have even unpacked their teargas rounds, and finally packing it in after a few hours because they forgot sunscreen and anyway, Idol's on. :rofl:

Fat people don't revolt.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Tobacco and coffee have been rationed out to US soldiers
since the American revolution.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
67. tis true, my dad said he traded his rationed smokes for weed
in the jungles of vietnam....
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
98. Then Rush can sit it out n/t
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. the last time Americans
came to blows approximately 2% of the total US population died (618K of 34 million) and that was with single shot, slow firing weapons and a greatly more dispersed population.

Fast forward to today and your "revolution" and assuming no greater death toll today than what happened 150 years ago (highly unlikely with significantly more powerful and deadly weapons and the fact that food production is far more distant from the bulk of the American population now as opposed to then) and you are looking at 6.1 million dead. When you factor in the other 2 more modern issues (weapons and food production), the aforementioned 20 million dead would appear to be low.

AND THEN, when you factor in the incredible international upset this would cause, you very well might see a worldwide conflagration erupting which could lead to deaths a couple of orders of magnitudes higher.

Yeah!!!!! something to which we would all look forward!!!
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Time to begin spreading the word on Civil Disobedience! Howard Zinn:
1) Civil disobedience is the deliberate, discriminate, violation of law for a vital social purpose. It becomes not only justifiable but necessary when a fundamental human right is at stake, and when legal channels are inadequate for securing that right. It may take the form of violating an obnoxious law, protesting an unjust condition, or symbolically enacting a desirable law or condition. It may or may not eventually be held legal, because of constitutional law or international law, but its aim is always to close the gap between law and justice, as an infinite process in the development of democracy.

2) There is no social value to a general obedience to the law, any more than there is value to a general disobedience to the law. Obedience to bad laws as a way of inculcating some abstract subservience to “the rule of law” can only encourage the already strong tendencies of citizens to bow to the power of authority, to desist from challenging the status quo. To exalt the rule of law as an absolute is the mark of totalitarianism, and it is possible to have an atmosphere of totalitarianism in a society which has many of the attributes of democracy. To urge the right of citizens to disobey unjust laws, and the duty of citizens to disobey dangerous laws, is of the very essence of democracy, which assumes that government and its laws are not sacred, but are instruments, serving certain ends: life, liberty, happiness. The instruments are dispensable. The ends are not.

3) Civil disobedience may involve violation of laws which are not in themselves obnoxious, in order to protest on a very important issue. In each case, the importance of the law being violated would need to be measured against the importance of the issue. A traffic law, temporarily broken, is not nearly as important as the life of a child run over by a car; illegal trespass into offices is nowhere as serious as the killing of people in war; the unlawful occupation of a building is not as sinful as racism in education. Since not only specific laws, but general conditions may be unbearable, laws not themselves ordinarily onerous may need to be violated as protest.

4) If a specific act of civil disobedience is a morally justifiable act of protest, then the jailing of those engaged in that act is immoral and should be opposed, contested to the very end. The protester need be no more willing to accept the rule of punishment than to accept the rule he broke. There may be many times when protesters choose to go to jail, as a way of continuing their protest, as a way of reminding their countrymen of injustice. But that is different than the notion that they must go to jail as part of a rule connected with civil disobedience. The key point is that the spirit of protest should be maintained all the way, whether it is done by remaining in jail, or by evading it. To accept jail penitently as an accession to “the rules” is to switch suddenly to a spirit of subservience, to demean the seriousness of the protest.

5) Those who engage in civil disobedience should choose tactics which are as nonviolent as possible, consonant with the effectiveness of their protest and the importance of the issue. There must be a reasonable relationship between the degree of disorder and the significance of the issue at stake. The distinction between harm to people and harm to property should be a paramount consideration. Tactics directed at property might include (again, depending on efficacy and the issue): depreciation (as in boycotts), damage, temporary occupation, and permanent appropriation. In any event, the force of any act of civil disobedience must be focused clearly, discriminately on the object of protest.

6) The degree of disorder in civil disobedience should not be weighed against a false “peace” presumed to exist in the status quo, but against the real disorder and violence that are part of daily life, overtly expressed internationally in wars, but hidden locally under that facade of “order” which obscures the injustice of contemporary society.

7) In our reasoning about civil disobedience, we must never forget that we and the state are separate in our interests, and we must not be lured into forgetting this by the agents of the state. The state seeks power, influence, wealth, as ends in themselves. The individual seeks health, peace, creative activity, love. The state, because of its power and wealth, has no end of spokesmen for its interests. This means the citizen must understand the need to think and act on his own or in concert with fellow citizens.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. +1
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Also, the "revolution" at that time was fought along a relatively narrow band
(at least before Sherman's march), and it was still fought in the old style, where two armies picked a big field and ran at each other.

A modern revolution in the US would be more like Bosnia, where you'd have black-to-block street fighting, and shelling of civilians.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
69. block to block fighting
would not be good, the majority of americans, including myself, do not want to see that much bloodshed. That is why a revolution must be a peaceful thing, protests, demonstrations, general strikes..... you have to win over the hearts of people PEACEFULLY or it would never work in the USA in my opinion.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. You know there could be peaceful revolution, don't you? n/t
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. the odds for a peaceful revolution
are long and not in your favor
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Why?
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. they are called history books
crack one open and you will quickly see that the number of violent revolutions far outstrip the number of non-violent ones.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. And I would say...
that the non violent ones do not get the noteriety of the violent ones.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
70. I tend to think they are better than the odds of a bloody revolt
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Revolution =/= War
The two are not the same. One is just a biproduct of the other that doesn't happen all of the time.

Revolution can mean anything. The Civil Rights Movement, some would argue, was a revolution.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. That's what I'm trying to get across n/t
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. Where did you get those figures? The population was a little over 2 million in 18th century.
Edited on Mon Mar-08-10 02:54 PM by Tierra_y_Libertad
The total combat deaths for Americans, as listed by the Department of Veterans Affairs, was 4435.

http://www.bedfordstmartins.com/history/cap/content/cp05/cp05cy01.htm

http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/44965.html
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'm in favor of a real revolution, i.e.
Edited on Mon Mar-08-10 02:41 PM by chrisa
Government change through campaigning and non-violence. "Revolution" doesn't always mean death.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Exactly!! n/t
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
72. And, as I said earlier, what do YOU plan to do?
You answered that you just put this out for discussion.

I know what I plan to do. I'm working to get candidates elected and others unelected. That's my revolutionary style. How 'bout you?
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
83. I have done...
and will continue to do the same.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Then there's your revolution. Now, you just have to convince
enough people that you're right. That's the job. What would be revolutionary would be enough people actually doing that job. I don't see it.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. I agree with that...
most people just sit on their asses and watch the world go by.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Or post messages on discussion boards and think that's useful.
I know...I do that too. I won't be around on Saturday, though. I have a Senate District DFL Convention to attend, where I'll be working on getting the right delegates to go to the State Convention to endorse a good candidate as the MN Governor. I won't be able to post that day.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. I don't get to travel much...
Edited on Mon Mar-08-10 05:08 PM by dajoki
because of my disabilities, but I do a lot of phone work and at the polls. Good luck!!
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Joe the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
26. Revolution? In America? Wont happen.....
The last revolution this country had was to gain its independence and that was probably the last.
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DFab420 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
34. Hmm
A few things to think about for all the "revolutionaries"

1. First, Martin Luther King Jr. would not EVER advocate a violent revolutions just keep that in mind..

2. Yes people lost their homes when the government was giving money to the banks, but even though that LOOKS bad, it is what was NECESSARY to keep the entire country afloat.

3. The whole SCOTUS/Lobbyist deal, this part sucks I agree, but does it call for entire system upheaval? I don't think so.

4. WHat would you do with all those military/armed forces men and women currently EMPLOYED in the 700 bases around the world, or the 6000 bases here at home..or the ones in the two wars? Thanks but we are done with you now? I hope not.

5. You think we are the only country in which surveillance is a constant? Welcome to the 21st century. The world is getting smaller. Not just this country.

6. What would you do with all those jailed felons? Surely some deserve to be free, like many first time drug offenders or teens tried as adults, but you can't really claim that they should all be free to walk about..

7. Democrats have been in power for a year! before we start doing this whole "well what have you done for me lately" thing lets not forget it took 8 years to fudge up this country so bad.

There are abhorrent issues in this country still. Racism and class-ism, unemployment and homelessness. However, dropping out the entire federal government in order to fix those problems, it seems like a bit dramatic a solution.

So I guess my one thing to anyone who wants a revolution. If you make that call, you had better have solutions. And I mean for everything. And they had better be perfect and quick and make everyone happy. How would you pay for everything? How would you feed the starving? How would you care for the sick? How would you have the governing body function? I bet you can't think of a single solution for any major U.S. issue without someone from the other side having an argument that goes in direct contradiction to your point. You might not agree with it and therefore label it bad, but they would probably feel the same way about your ideas of revolution as well...just food for thought.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
73. Martin Luther King Jr. wanted the best kind of revolution
a revolution of peoples hearts, minds, and souls.....you cannot do that kind of a revolution with violence.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
43. A revolt is more what we need.
Revolt: to renounce allegiance or "subjection" (as to a government) : rebel

If enough people would simply stop working and buying anything for a few days in protest...
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DFab420 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. ?
That would mess up our already struggling economy. YES! ..wait..what?


NO buying food! NO buying heating oil! Don't pay rent! Arh harhar!!


Not buying anything and not working won't help/change anyone or anything...
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. History says other wise.
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DFab420 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. REally???
If your rebuttal was a photo I can't see it do to work restrictions.

Do you think you could point to a event in history? Or describe the photo.. Please and thank you.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
68. History tends not to say that a couple days of symbolic strike accomplish much. (nt)
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okie Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
55. Interesting discussion
I suppose I would hesitantly place myself in the camp with those who believe a revolution in the United States is necessary. I want to make it clear at the outset that I don't believe such a thing is on the horizon. Anyway, saying that such an action would surely lead to bloodshed is not an argument anyone should dismiss, but it also does not end the discussion. We have to ask how much tyranny we should be willing to accept. Sure, we can point to the terror in revolutionary France as an argument for the inherit tyranny of revolution, but then we have to ask what the alternative, monarchist terror would have looked like. We can point to the aftermath of the Paris commune too, but should that bloody outcome be an argument in favor of workers just accepting their lot in life, and being chewed up by an imperial state? Similarly, though I'm certainly no great defender of the Bolsheviks, I can understand how a poor Russian might want to topple a monarchy engaged in a costly, horrific war being fought essentially to protect Western profits and redraw some lines on a map.

I think the situation today looks exceedingly grim. If things do not change radically, what kind of world are we looking at? Does the United States show any indication of scaling back its empire building? Does anyone really believe people sitting in cabinet meetings have a real desire to just up and leave Iraq or Afghanistan (to say nothing of the other nations we currently maintain a presence)? The civilian death toll in Iraq is shameful enough, and who really knows what it looks like in Afghanistan? How many more will die if we're there another five years? Another 10? And if we are there another 10 years what does this mean for US citizens? These wars and occupations are expensive to run. Who's going to get squeezed in order to maintain them?

A poster above said we can change things like this at the ballot box. I disagree. I'm reminded of the Emma Goldman quote, "if voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." Maybe it sounds like some empty anarchist sloganeering, but I look at the trends over the last 60 years or so, and I have to say Goldman was spot on. Looking at the big picture, it becomes quite clear that wealth inequality is rising to absolutely shocking levels. Education is becoming more and more costly. The current ruling order is only capable of dealing with the economic crisis through the exact same means that lead to our present state. What will the next crash look like? At the very least, are we not looking at a period of profound stagnation, with no light in sight? We have been either directly, or indirectly involved in major conflicts all over the world pretty much every year I have been alive. And, more troubling, the military industrial complex that makes these wars possible is also the engine that drove the post WWII American economy. In short, we cannot live without all the conflicts, and all the wholesale slaughter. I would submit that voters are largely not in favor of this state of affairs, and they never have been. But what have their votes gotten us? What kinds of options did voters ever even have? The range of choices is extremely narrow, and all too often the most important matters are not even up for a vote.

This is getting a little long for a forum discussion, but I am genuinely curious about the direction others think we're going absent radical change - especially from those who recoil from the very idea of change through revolution. And if I'm not wrong about about what I've outlined in the paragraphs above, where does that leave us? I think it's clear that for most people in this country, things will be quite bleak on the road we're on (and I've not even begun to get into the issue of environmental devastation and climate change, which the capitalist order is clearly incapable of seriously addressing).
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Good post and welcome to DU okie n/t
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okie Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
56. Malcolm X
This topic reminded me of this excellent speech by Malcolm X in front of the Oxford Union.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmzaaf-9aHQ

"And in my opinion, the young generation of whites, blacks, browns, whatever else there is, you're living at a time of extremism, a time of revolution, a time when there's got to be a change. People in power have misused it and now there has to be a change and a better world has to be built and the only way it's going to be built is with extreme methods"
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. check out Malcolm X the ballot or the bullet
I tend to be a pacifist but I understand where the man was coming from.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
57. Tracking a New Kind of Civil Disobedience, by Kathleen Burge
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
63. K&R
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