The Economic Elite Have Engineered a Coup, Threatening the Existence of the Middle Class

[Political Heretic]

The Economic Elite Have Engineered an Extraordinary Coup, Threatening the Very Existence of the Middle Class

The economic elite have robbed us all. The amount of suffering in the United States of America is literally a crime against humanity.

It has now become evident to a critical mass that the Republican and Democratic parties, along with all three branches of our government, have been bought off by a well-organized Economic Elite who are tactically destroying our way of life. The harsh truth is that 99 percent of the U.S. population no longer has political representation. The U.S. economy, government and tax system is now blatantly rigged against us. Current statistical societal indicators clearly demonstrate that a strategic attack has been launched and an analysis of current governmental policies prove that conditions for 99 percent of Americans will continue to deteriorate. The Economic Elite have engineered a financial coup and have brought war to our doorstep...and make no mistake, they have launched a war to eliminate the U.S. middle class.

...

To those who feel I am using extreme rhetoric, I ask you to please take a few minutes of your time to hear me out and research the evidence put forth. The facts are there for the unprejudiced, rational and reasoned mind to absorb. It is the unfortunate reality of our current crisis. Unless we all unite and organize on common ground, our very way of life and the ideals that our country was founded upon will continue to unravel.

...

America is the richest nation in history, yet we now have the highest poverty rate in the industrialized world with an unprecedented amount of Americans living in dire straights and over 50 million citizens already living in poverty. The government has come up with clever ways to downplay all of these numbers, but we have over 50 million people who need to use food stamps to eat, and a stunning 50 percent of U.S. children will use food stamps to eat at some point in their childhoods. Approximately 20,000 people are added to this total every day. In 2009, one out of five U.S. households didn't have enough money to buy food. In households with children, this number rose to 24 percent, as the hunger rate among U.S. citizens has now reached an all-time high.

...

Behind each of these numbers, is a tremendous amount of misery; the physical toll is only outdone by the severe psychological toll. Anyone who has had to put off medical care, or who couldn't get medical care for one of their family members due to financial circumstances, can tell you about the psychological toll that is on top of the physical suffering. Anyone who has felt the stress of wondering how they were going to get their child's next meal or their own, or the stress of not knowing how they are going to pay the mortgage, rent, electricity or heat bill, let alone the car payment, gas, phone, cable or Internet bill. There are now well over 150 million Americans who feel stress over these things on a consistent basis. Over 60 percent of Americans now live paycheck to paycheck.

(more)

http://www.alternet.org/story/145667/

[Political Heretic]

1. Honestly, recs 30 second after this is posted are as bad as unrecs 30 seconds after.

Not everything has to be a political game. Can people just read the article? Please?

Don't read a headline and go "sweet that fits my agenda, I'm going to give it a rec."

[Bluebear]

17. Personally, I would rec it on the title alone :)

[Subdivisions]

50. I would have recced based on the first paragraph alone. If our so-called

news media was worth a fuck, they'd be saying the same things Mr. DeGraw says in the cited article.

[Cleita]

2. Aren't they a little late to the party?

DUers were talking about this years ago and we could see it coming, but nothing was done about it by our Democratic leadership, except to make promises to get elected but forgotten after.

[Political Heretic]

3. Whatever DUers were talking about it have been replaced by DUers apologizing for the status quo

Thus it bears repeating for an apparently new generation of DU.

[tom_paine]

15. That is so true, Political Heretic

Sadly.

But now "tipping point" seems to have passed over and our choices now remain the Far Right Corporate Neofeudal System curently being hammered out or some real old-fashioned Ultra-Right Nazi-style crazy represented in embryo by the Tea Party.

Should be interesting as the next deacde or two unfolds as to which wins out.

My money is still on Classical "Nazi-style" totalitarianism because the American Corporatists are making the same "mistake" if it is indeed a "mistake", as the 1930s German Industrialists made.

The Beast will escape it's cage. But the American Corporatists will mostly still cheer it on, until Corn-Pone Hitler turns his or her eye on THEM.

[Voice for Peace]

35. Corn Pone Hitler?

trying to wrap my head around that :freak:

[tom_paine]

43. Whups. Forgot to give props "kudos to James Kunstler for that term"

Not to worry about wrapping your head around it, because I would put the odds at 50-50 that you will be SEEING Corn-Pone Hitler in the next 20 years, so try and at least wrap your had around him (or her) when they get here.

Funny how history repeats, and if it doesn't repeat it sure does rhyme. Click on "Oath Keepers" and you can see the core group of new "Corn-Pone Hitler" Law Enforcement. Ironically, and when dealing with Nazis, Bushies, and Right-Wing Authoritarian Followers in general, one must expect irony to be something of a dead concept, since Orwellian "black-is-white" "oppressor-is-victim" liturgy is their Mother's Milk.

It's VERY complicated, and would take an entire book to explain the concept in full. It has, in my opinion, so many facets that a multiple of sources is required to fully understand it all.

One facet:

The "Oath Keepers" as the Brownshirts before them, are only worried about the "freedom" of them and people who think as they do. Because OBAMA is in office. However, you can take it to the bank that, if called upon by President Bush or Palin to round up the Liberals Who Threaten Our Nation With Their Verminous, Cancerous Evil and send them to "Relocation Camps", they'll round us up with cheerful smiles on their faces.

And as for Corn-Pone Hitler, he (or she) will be the one who comes along and unifies the Tea Party/Patriots/KKK in a NEW and IMPROVED American style, tailored for a fresh, bold NEW generation of "21st Century conservatism".

(Old Hitler's brand has been discredited, and thus too closely aping him would be bad PR and marketing)

If you are interested in reading more from the person who invented the term "Corn-Pone Hitler" click on this:

http://kunstler.com/blog/

[Odin2005]

25. I was one of the suckers, untill Obama shoved a knife in my back.

As many of you may know by my posts in the past.

[HughBeaumont]

4. Great piece. Here's what our favorite ex-DUer PUMA Perry Logan had to say in the Comments section:

We had a fighting chance, till Obama. In case you hadn’t noticed, the man is a flaming neocon.

Said the supporter of a woman who was just about as big a laissez-failer as her husband was.

[Political Heretic]

7. Should just remind him that she carries water for the Obama administration now.

So I question that somehow we would have seen something radically better from a candidate already approved by the economic elite.

[bvar22]

5. Mission Accomplished!

NOW we have Your Children’s Money too !!!
And there is not a fucking thing you can do about it!
Now THIS is “Bi-Partisanship” !
Better get used to it!!
Hahahahahahahahaha!



Brand Obama/"Hope & Change" was a highly successful Corporate Marketing Scam.
Anyone who can NOT see this by now is willfully blind.

Patriot Act quietly renewed by Democratic majority this weekend.

What else do you need to know?:shrug:

How about this:

* Would you favor or oppose the national government offering everyone the choice of a government administered health insurance plan — something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get — that would compete with private health insurance plans?

Favor 82%

Oppose 14%

Not Sure 4%
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010010320/poll-shouts-message-massachusetts-voters-were-sending

and yet, any type of Public Option was conspicuously absent from "Obama's Health Care Plan" released last week (The Baucus Plan re-packaged with an Obama face on the label).
So who ARE the "Centrist Democrats" really working for?
Americans who Work for a Living,
or the RICH Ownership Class?
"By their works you will know them."

Still clinging blindly to some "HOPE"?
Lets do a quick review of the last year:
The DLC Dream List....Mission Accomplished!

*WARS fully funded and EXPANDING. Bill sent to our children…...Mission Accomplished !

*Trillion Dollars given to friends and campaign contributors on Wall Street. No Strings Attached...Mission Accomplished!

*Military Spending INCREASED....Mission Accomplished!

*Trillion+ Dollars given to the Health Insurance Industry. Easily Avoidable, symbolic only strings attached....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Force all Americans to buy invisible products from For Profit Corporations who manufacture nothing and create no (Value Added) wealth..."A Uniquely American Solution"..indeed. .....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Kill the possibility for a REAL "Public Option" or REAL Universal Health Care for at least another generation, and begin the “Entitlement Reform” defunding of Medicare (-$500 Billion)....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Block ANY REAL re-regulation of BIG BANKS and Credit Cards....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the Bush War Criminals and Torturers from JUSTICE....Mission Accomplished.

*Throw the GBLTs under the bus and expand "faith based" initiatives....Mission Accomplished!

*Reinforce the worst Police State provisions of the Patriot Act and strengthen the Unitary Executive....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the very richest. Tell the Working Class that they CAN WILL compete with 3rd World Slave Labor for their jobs.....Mission Accomplished!

*EFCA (Employee Free Choice Act) killed in the crib....Mission Accomplished!

*More Anti-LABOR "Free Trade"....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Jobless Recovery....Mission Accomplished

*The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party SHUT OUT of the Obama Administration…...Mission Accomplished!

*Accelerate the destruction of Public Education...Mission Accomplished!

*Bury next generation under such a debt burden that they will never be able to afford any social or economic programs that will benefit their Working Class....Mission Accomplished.

And ALL this in less than a year!!!
But HANG ON!
The destruction ("Privatization") of Social Security is NEXT on the DLC Hit List.
They "Centrist Democrats" (Obama included) have already begun dismantling the last remaining piece of FDR's "New Deal".
They are calling it "Entitlement Reform".

Who needs Republicans when we have the "New Democrats"? :shrug:

[laughingliberal]

14. +1000 nt

[Foo Fighter]

22. Well said!

We need to purge the whole lot of them in DC and replace them with people like...hmmm, who could we get...hey, bvar22, what are you doing in 2012? ;) You'd have my vote.

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. Obama and his Corporate Administration sickens me. I can't stand the sight of any of them.

:puke: Same goes for the rest of the Corporate Owned DINOs, too. :puke:

[L0oniX]

44. Destroy civilian jobs to encourage military recruitment ...and the cheer leaders here are happy.

Want your own cheer leading squad here on DU ...just say you are joining the military. To all those who do join ...thanks for helping to destroy this country with your contribution to the over 700 billion a year in defense spending. Now tell me that those military jobs are middle class jobs.

[BonnieJW]

45. And yet the repubs condemn Obama hourly.

What's the purpose in that?

[DCKit]

49. They did the same to Clinton - all the while he gave them everything they could want. n/t

[nxylas]

51. It helps maintain the illusion of choice

As long as the economic elite has two parties representing them instead of one, people can kid themselves that they live in a free country. If the Repubs started openly agreeing with Obama, the game would be up.

[liberation]

53. It's all a good cop/bad cop play....

... either that or Mr. Obama suffers some kind of abused "spouse" syndrome, and he really really really needs to earn the validation of his abusers in order to function.


Whichever the case may be, it would be a good time for a lot of people to realize that a "pragmatic" president makes as much sense as an agnostic pope. Can anyone tell me exactly what Obama stands for and what his political agendas (never mind actual ideological leanings) are? Nope? Don't worry, because the reality of it is that no one can... because people were convinced that lack of ideology was a good thing in politics, which makes no sense since politics at its most basic level involves ideology.

I will no longer trust a charlatan who is not willing to stand up and disclose his own beliefs, to be willing to stand up to defend my interests. I will no longer be willing to vote anyone into office whose only electoral value propositions amounts to nothing more than black mail ("vote for me or the GOP gets in, boooooooooo!"). People should start voting for their conscience, not for what the lesser of the evils may be.

[ipaint]

6. The working class has been telling the middle class for years that they were next. All the while the

upper middle class and it's lower middle class wanna be's watched silent as the working class was shredded. The middle class cheered as democrats moved further and further to the right, cutting social programs and sending the lower class's kids to war for the corporations.
Never did they join with the working class in the last 30 years to fight the creeping conservatism. Most cheered when another "greedy" union fell or food stamps where cut and when personal responsibility became the politically correct meme they lashed out at the working class relentlessly from their middle class high horses. Apparently the ability to consume in excess was a measure of character and intelligence.

Now it's come home to roost. If this is what it takes for people to wake up from their consumer stupor and realize what happens to the least of us happens to us all, so be it. It can't happen too soon.

[laughingliberal]

13. Wonder how far up or how high the numbers have to get before people wake up? nt

[ljm2002]

18. +100000 n/t

[truedelphi]

26. I hear you. n/t

[DisgustedInMN]

29. The "upper middle class" won't..

.. able to ignore it much longer, the shitfight is about to land on their doorstep.

[RedRoses323]

33. Agree...

:thumbsup:

[inna]

8. Part II here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7732854

[KillCapitalism]

9. The article is dead-on.

Give it enough time and the US will look more like Haiti.

To all the middle class repukes who supported all this, take a real good look at your TV when they show footage of Haiti because that's your future.

[gulliver]

10. The Middle Class is doing it to themselves

Sure, corporations and the wealthy want us to vote against ourselves (and for the GOP), but that doesn't mean we have to. People are just easily led astray by their feelings. People would rather lose $100 than see $1 go to someone they think doesn't deserves it. So the GOP divide and conquer us easily.

Then everyone in the middle class knows that trying to promote environmental awareness and sustainable resource management is a job killer. It's not a job creator. Everyone knows that doing things the sloppy, dirty, slapdash, leave-behind-the-mess way takes way less human effort. And way less human effort translates to way more jobs.

Er...

[snagglepuss]

11. Very true about many people, unfortunately

:(

[truedelphi]

28. This one sentence of yours did it for me:

People would rather lose $100 than see $1 go to someone they think doesn't deserves it.

That is so very much a part of it.

The other part of it, from the other side (the Democratic one) is equally sad. I don't know how many times I've been told by women friends that because of Obama being charismatic and so "smart" -- they don't want to waste any time analyzing the Geithner/Bernanke policies - their articulate, good looking soft- spoken President would never do anything to hurt the middle class.

Even as their kids and spouses are gettin laid off, and their ARM's are going through the roof.

[amborin]

12. the financialization of all areas of life....

[Union Yes]

16. Serf wages for all. knr nt

[BeFree]

19. We still can vote!!

They haven't taken away the vote. Sure, they have a private corporation that counts the votes, but so what? We can trust them, right?

____________________

Diebold: it's what makes the pukes be able to puke on us.

[Odin2005]

27. If voting changed anything they would make it illegal.

[L0oniX]

42. +1

[bertman]

20. I can't argue with any of that. Rec. nt

[donheld]

21. k & R

[Odin2005]

23. We've been had. Obama is just another Corporatist.

The whole system is broken beyond redemption, both parties are wholly boughten by the elites.

[Starry Messenger]

24. k & r

[blindpig]

30. Just the 'faux' middle class

All of the working class folks who did well in the 50's and 60's, thank you, unions, find that they are standing on air, that they are not the exalted 'middle class' after all. The real middle class, professionals, management, the fixers of capitalists society, they're keeping Whole Foods in the black. As you pointed out the other day, they are the only ones who count in this economic system, they and their masters.

k&r

[Echo In Light]

32. kr

[sui generis]

34. I call bullshit

or at least call for a finer split of the hair.

Every time we use a phrase like "the economic elite" or "the rich" we're blaming the einviger jew, figuratively, for our misery, no better than any dogmatic view of the economic misery in Germany in the mid to late 1930's.

You want to know the real issues? We don't get off our ass to vote. When we do vote we let our politicians tell us what they think is important and give them our vote anyway.

If we vote, when we're done voting we go on about our miserable lives, maybe stirring ourselves to blog to the world how miserable we are, and yet I'll wager 99 out 100 bloggers on DU have never attended a state legislative session, have never written a paper letter to their state or federal representative, have never visited in person with any representation to discuss an issue and propose a solution.

There are sharks in the ocean. We're still pissing ourselves every time a shark eats another benefit, takes another loophole, dodges another tax and justified not a BONUS (we are just myopic children) but an actual dividend worth dozens of times more, at the expense of middle class wage increases and even jobs.

Why do we mewl so much about the wrong shit? You can't kill the sharks in the ocean but you can stop feeding them. We are to blame for the fat sharks as much as the shark's appetites because after we finish venting and pissing and moaning, we'll feel all better for a day or two and then remember that evil sui generis said something that got us excited but still not do a god damn thing about any real issue or problem.

No, it's not the economic elite. There are a lot fewer of us than of you. If you want to do something, assemble your votes, vote for the right candidates, make them accountable and change the LAWS. Also you have to participate in that, yourself, with more than just your vote. If you want more money available to government, STOP THE FUCKING MILITARY OVERSPENDING. 3/4 trillion dollars this year, and you still want to round up the einviger jews and charge them a whole bunch of taxes because THAT will make you feel better?

People - some days I'm embarrassed to be a democrat, if DU served as the soul of the democratic ethos alone. We need to stop fucking feeling sorry for ourselves and do something besides bitch about how unfair life is. AND we need to focus on the right things even if they aren't cathartic.

[MadHound]

36. You're blaming the victim on this one

Yes, there are more of them than there are of us, but the fact of the matter is that they not only have much more money, but the elite control the levers of power in this country. Yes, we can write letters to the editor, write our reps, go out and protest, etc. etc., but the fact of the matter is that none of those acts, either singly or collectively has as much impact as having the lobbyist for Pfizer or Big Oil, or whomever show up in your rep's office with a plan and a big was of cash.

In fact we have seen time and again how mass movements simply aren't covered anymore. Put a million people out on the streets for an anti-war rally and what happens? The silence of the crickets. Controlling the media means the elites control the message.

And while we go door to door imploring people with intelligent arguments to vote for Candidate X, that is all wiped out by a huge advertising blitz by Candidate Y.

I would say that many, if not most of the posters on DU have been or are active politically, we can after all walk and chew gum at the same time. But the fact of the matter is that the odds are stacked against the ordinary person in this day and age, and with the latest ruling by the Supreme Court in this country those are will become even more stacked.

We can, and have banged our heads against the system, worked hard, done all the right things, and frankly nothing has changed, except for the worse. You complain about apathy, you're right, it's a huge problem. But why are people apathetic? It is because most of them have realized that it is a rigged game and they simply don't want to play anymore.

Urging us to continue in this futile pursuit is simply folly, worse it is insanity. We need real change in this country and frankly it isn't going to come in the form of our current two party system. Nor will it happen by people continuing the same ol' same ol', voting, writing, contacting, etc. etc. The system is rigged to absorb all that energy and negate it while the rich and elite simply bypass it and buy their influence.

Until we have publicly financed election campaigns, nothing in this country is going to change. When we the people are on even parity with Corporate America, then our actions will actually bear fruit. Until then, not so much, if any.

[sui generis]

38. I am guessing you are the one in one hundred

who actually DOES do something. The thing is it's not blaming the victim if we continue the shark analogy. Capitalists seek opportunity and advantage, like water seeks cracks. Sharks seek meat. If we continue to throw chum we can't complain about how many sharks there are in the water.

The fact is, if one in one hundred is banging their head and nothing changes, it's not "rigged", the game is underattended.

Blaming ennui and apathy on foregone conclusions is putting the cart before the dead horse. It's still not going anywhere, fast.

What are we waiting on, a sign in the heavens that the system is no longer rigged? We work against ourselves when I hear crap like last week's post: if you don't vote for the democrats even if they aren't for liberal and progressive issues, YOU'RE responsible for the republicans winning!

The shut up and vote crowd are our very own circular firing squad - and it achieves nothing to vote for more "rigging" in our system.

If we truly want a candidate that will change something, we need to have some form of accountability for what needs to get done. If you want credit card reform, by god credit card reform isn't just a clearer notice that your rate is going up to 90% and an elimination of usury limits. That was our dear old president. If you want healthcare availability, mandating health insurance is not fixing the rigging. We voted for this lame half-baked set of solutions. We voted for a president who thinks that bi-partisanship is worth more than getting things done, who prides himself on being a great "uniter" and not a great achiever.

Completely agreed on publicly financed election campaigns. Get rid of lobbies that benefit legal entities, such as corporations or foreign countries, and allows lobbies that benefit people, measurably. Make the human entity bear more legal weight than the corporate entity in every measure - we are NOT equals and shouldn't be.

If one percent of us is continuing in this "futile" pursuit, you're right it is insanity, while the other 99% sit on DU and blog away and still continue to justify why they don't have and hold higher standards for their candidates, for their participation in government, and for their accountability, even some accountability, for where we are now.

The main thing is, we have to get off our asses every week and month, and not just at election time. I doubt that "most" of DU ARE politically active in anything more than having an opinion, or at election time, with their vote and a yard sign. That's the utter bare minimum effort, and signing a bunch of electronic petitions does NOT count either.

If we give up the responsibility for being accountable to the process - that would be insanity.

[blindpig]

37. Yeah, voting worked soo well in '08....

It's a dog and pony show that has no other purpose than to maintain the illusion that people have a say. People voted for change in '08 and they didn't even get small change.

Don't even think of equating the plight of Jews in Nazi Germany with the poor, put-upon rich, don't even think of equating racism with the class warfare being inflicted upon the masses, that's despicable.

This is going to have to be settled in the streets, the people have no other option.

Eat the rich.

[sui generis]

39. I promise you one thing

little noble poor person.

If you come for the rich, for real, you will get eaten yourself. And then where will you be - a turd in a gilded toilet.

I'm sorry, if you really think you can't win using the tools in front of you then why bluster here on DU about some imaginary situation that will most certainly NEVER come to pass without violence that would be AS unimaginable as rounding up jews in Germany? It's masturbatory. Exactly HOW are you going to "eat the rich?"

Storm their gated communities and behead them and pass their assets out to the grateful poor, who by the way, will still be poor?

Oh and about your comment making my equation despiccable - I probably know a thing or two more about it than you do, I'll wager.

[blindpig]

46. They must be separated from the means of production.

That is the source of their power over us. When all is done there will be no poor, that's the point, capitalism is the source of poverty.

The 'tools' you speak of are useless, as has been demonstrated. As has been said, if voting were effective it would be illegal.

Resistants is futile, huh?

Your condescending attitude suits you.

[sui generis]

48. since it's a pose no worries, but thank you for the snub

let me return it. Your pathetic mewling victim posture suits you, and you wear it well.

Is there anything constructive that you can say? At least I am being tongue in cheek.

[liberation]

55. ... yawn

[sui generis]

59. egg-zackitly

dim bulbs everywhere make me sleepy too.

[rhett o rick]

56. I totally agree with you. There is literally no hope for the poor. They cant storm the Bastille

because that doesnt work. Didnt work for the French and wont work for us. And to try to use the system to defeat the ruling class is a joke. They own the system.

So as I see it, it is hopeless. The poor have two choices. One, wait for the ruling class to eat itself, which it will, or B. fight like hell maybe do some damage*.

Violent revolution wont work but is one hell of a lot more fun than rolling over and taking it.

*For the benefit of the NSA (COMCAST/ATT) when I refer to doing damage, of course I am not speaking of physical or property damage.

[sui generis]

58. see

I get this is tongue in cheek with tinge of bitter on the side. :P

[rhett o rick]

66. Bitter yes, tongue in cheek no way. I am sorry too few of my class recognize

what is happening. Violent revolution will do us no more good than trying to work thru a system that the ruling class control. But I say violence is more rewarding than capitulation. The French Revolution was a great example. The people didnt win but many of the ruling class lost their heads, literally. Time to bring back the guillotines. By the way, are your hands calloused?

[sui generis]

68. yes as a matter of fact

but that's mostly because I'm also a gym rat, and I choose to work in my own garden. Chapped hands never kept anyone from losing their head back in those days.

My soul is more calloused than my hands - but that's cause I've done some living to get here.

[AlienGirl]

71. Violence is not rewarding. Revolutions are awful, and anyone who's seen one would agree

Revolutions and civil wars are awful. They are a bloody, terrifying business, in which no one has the leisure of being confident that she or her children will survive. They cannot simply be gotten out of the way of: they come into your town, and heaven help you if you don't have the resources to flee. You say you want to attack the super-rich, but in a violent revolution the super-rich would have had the ability to flee; your attack will fall, not upon their heel, but where their heel has been. With the tip-top upper echelon gone, where will all that rage go? Upon the petite bourgeoisie, your slightly-richer neighbors, who still work for their wages (rather than belonging to that class whose money labors for them)?

After a civil war you are left with broken infrastructure, broken people, broken civil trust, and a lingering "everyone for himself" mentality. I suspect that's the last thing you want to do, but that is the reality at the ground level of ordinary civilians, upon whose backs civil wars are fought.

Tucker

[Political Heretic]

74. Like that American revolution...

[AlienGirl]

79. This is not like that. This would be more like the Civil War.

The American Revolution did leave many people injured or dead, but the technological limitations of the time somewhat limited the destruction.

India was also once a colony, and proves a counterexample to the idea that change requires violence.

Tucker

[rhett o rick]

81. I wish. But IMHO the American Revolution was unique. We were a whole continent away from our enemy

We were fighting them on our terms and not theirs. I am afraid if we revolted it would be more like the French Revolution. The ruling class changed but the people didnt win.

[AlienGirl]

82. American revolutionaries also had a goal and set of unifying principles

The goal of the "revolution against the rich" is just to get and redistribute their *stuff*. There's no organizing document, no first principles, and as near as I can see no plan for afterward.

If you successfully take all of the yachts, all of the mansions, the gold, the cars, the curios, the silver--what then if no one's put thought into how to make sure farms keep producing food, trucks keep delivering it, and people have the electricity or fuel to cook it?

You can't eat status symbols.

Tucker

[rhett o rick]

92. Where did you ever get your goal for the revolution?

I dont want their yachts, their mansions, etc. I want them to stop exploiting the country and people. I want them to share the cost of the country. I want them to stop sending our children to fight wars of imperialism for their gain.

And you are wrong about our revolution not having documents, principles and goals. The Declaration of Independence still works just fine. And the Constitution is worth fighting for.

You imply that we cant survive with out the wealthy and their farms, factories and trucks. Let me remind you that the wealthy are currently moving their wealth out of country and moving their factories out of countries. And Bush borrowed from the Communists and Saudi's and now they own our farms and corporations.

I am curious where you see this going? How will we increase employment?

[AlienGirl]

96. Where I see it going? Likely eventual Balkanization, regional wars, even a second Dark Ages

The US as it is can't keep this up. The military is overextended almost to the breaking point despite getting most of the tax funding. People live isolated from each other, trapped in iPod bubbles that shut out awareness of anything like "the commons". Everyone has a ton of stuff, but always wants more or better or newer, and it's easier to chuck the excess in the landfill than drive it to a donation center or get an old thing repaired. We have so much stuff but so little time with our families. We have lots and lots of cheap starch and fat calories but so little real nutrition at affordable prices. We *need* cars to function, even though the roads are clogged and the cheap oil is running out. I think a lot of people see these things, and the hotter heads on the Right and Left both want to have a whack at civil war over it, which means they probably will.

I don't think there is any top-down fix possible, whether by current power-players or by revolutionaries. The whole structure of the US economy and current culture depends on constant growth and super-cheap energy, and as a model that will eventually fail. I don't expect people to take it any better than the collapse of the Roman empire.

The only thing that I think would work is something that could never be practically implemented: sustainable decentralization. Everything needs to get smaller and more interlinked at the same time. More people need to have small farms that grow some of their food and trade some with other locales to get other stuff. Everyone should have a means of generating electricity and put their surplus energy into the grid. There need to be factories that produce goods for domestic consumption in the US. The infrastructure that is falling apart needs to be rebuilt stronger so that dams don't break and food can be transported.

To get there, the wars have to be stopped and the funds--maybe also the soldiers--immediately redirected into repairing the US infrastructure, which is "nation building" we desperately need. Some of the funds could go toward retrofitting cities with gardening space, including rooftop gardens. There needs to be another CCC for unemployed workers.

Most of all, there would have to be a change in expectations--which is what no one will accept until it's too late. People would have to expect to know their neighbors and help watch out for them. People would have to decide that fixing an old appliance is a good idea, and a new appliance will have to cost more than the price of fixing an old one. People will have to allow shops and small-scale farming in "residential" neighborhoods. People will have to accept that the grocery store might not always carry fresh out-of-season produce or seventy kinds of shampoo manufactured by three companies.

The only hope, as I see it, would be a "revolution" of the same type as the "industrial revolution", but in reverse. It would require lots of people all at once to decide that living sustainably is better for their future in a real and perceptible way than living large. I give it little chance of happening.

Tucker

[rhett o rick]

78. Damnit. Leave reality out of this. You certainly know how to kill a buzz.

I know you are right. I spoke from the frustration of knowing that to work thru the system is futile. But I can not hold back the chaos. It will come. It is only a matter of time. the Capitalist will feed off us as long as they can, their hunger ever increasing. Then they will turn on each other but we will be the walking dead by then.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Heretic]

54. And the wealthy white person voice weighs in to the discussion. "It's not our fault!"

We've heard it all before.

Unless your part of the top 1% of wealth holders in this country, there's no need for you to get so defensive.

When we "get off our ass and vote" - we'll be voting for people who will restore the rights of workers, rebuild Labor, raise taxes that have been cut by double digits soas to restores a responsibly progressive tax system comparable to other western-industrialized economies that have lower poverty rates, lower income inequality, lower unemployment, and better quality of life standards than we do. And yes, we'd be about stopping military overspending - which would be vehemently opposed by economic royalists who make a killing off of the military-industrial complex, which would cut into their profits in that area. Among other things.

Let me just stop for a moment and put something in perspective, here....

You referred to yourself as part of the "economic elite." I have a feeling that's probably a lot of wishful thinking on your part, but we can certainly accept the basic assumption that you're not poor. Based on your post and on statistics it would be a good guess to assume you are male and white as well. How am I doing so far?

So consider this.... a rich, probably white, probably male person defending economic royalists just compared his plight to that of the jews in Nazi Germany.

Do you realize how fucking obscene that is? Only an out of touch rich white idiot could be that completely self-absorbed. Yes, economic royalists in America are like persecuted Jews. Maybe you should all "go Galt" you fucking lunatic. And take your Ayn Rand sense of ridiculous self-importance and entitlement with you.

It's sad that you've positioned yourself as one of the economic elite being described here - the top 1% of wealth holders in the country. Because I'd bet all the money I had to my name that you're not part of that exclusive club. But you, like so many other Americans desperately want to believe that you are, or that you will be one day. It's that total farce of a dream that keeps people held down by a boot to the head from ever resisting and organizing for change.

[rhett o rick]

60. A man walks into a 7-11 with a gun and demands all the money.

Later the man claims it wasnt his fault, the "robbed" didnt do enough to stop him.

Calling these people or their actions "obscene" is wasted. Their culture doesnt understand anything but greed.

[sui generis]

69. rhett o rick

who are these people you speak of?

What on earth do you know about "these people"? I shudder at generalizing, although I will say that a lot people who have money or want money (that means not just wealthy people but wannabe's like republicans) really are greedy and selfish. Do you think I would be HERE if that was the case with me and mine?

Seriously guys. I am not a civilian target just because I participate.

[Political Heretic]

77. It's not about *YOU* you egotistical lunatic.

My god...

[sui generis]

85. well it became personal

so yes it was.

sorry you are unable to distinguish friends from enemies - it's your problem not mine.

[rhett o rick]

83. You say the poor has nothing to complain about because they have allowed the

rich to rob them blind. That's what I heard you say. We, the lower classes, are at war with the wealthy ruling class. They are not trying to shore the wealth of the country with us they want it all for themselves. And they are not content with that. They want us to pay for infrastructure they enjoy. They literally are trying to redistribute the wealth from us to them. And I agree with you that we are not doing enough to stop this unconscionable action. But we really have no means of stopping it. Voting is a joke. Almost all Congress members and challengers are either already members of the ruling class or want to be.

Whether you see it or not, it is obvious to me that the wealthy want more wealth at any cost. They dont necessarily want us to die, but dont care if we do. Profits are more important than any other thing to them.

[sui generis]

86. no you extended it too far

I'm saying we have SOME accountability in this as progressives, not just poor people. It's not all black or white anyway - if it was there would be an easy political fix.

Our value system as a nation has to change before we start proposing laws that align with that. That's the thing - if we believe people should have healthcare as as side effect of being American, then we de-privatize healthcare, or at the very least we allow the government to compete, and we make private healthcare the "option".

We want class warfare with a group of people, not realizing they are a symptom rather than a cause of our financial malaise. And we want it to HURT them by god, and that's where I think we're focusing on the ineffective.

And the THEY includes President Obama if he makes over 250K a year and has more than 6 million in assets, by the way. So class warfare based on income is not a great strategy.

anyway, the point of my post was to get conversation, not judgment. I appreciate the fair replies - there are some kooky ones here too.

[rhett o rick]

91. I accept kooky, but I have a very hard time believing that anyone in the top1/2% weathy ruling class

are progressive. They are mutually exclusive. Yes, I have seen some of the wealthy class pretending to be progressive, but when push comes to shove, they side with their own. In general wealth is not unlimited. If someone gets wealthy, someone else usually gets less wealthy. And when someone gains 100 billion dollars, a lot of good people are losing their jobs, homes, health care and pensions. Bill Gates is generous, but still only donates a tiny fraction of his wealth. I know poor people that donate a much greater percentage.

I dont want to hurt the ruling class. I want a Democracy. I want fair wages and environmental standards. I want health care for all.

To the wealthy, getting out of paying taxes is a game. If people starve because of it, too bad, nothing personal.

[Greyhound]

64. This could be interesting...

but I doubt you'll hear back from this one.

They are however, getting nervous...

[sui generis]

67. after 13 brazillian posts here do you think

do you think? I'm here because I'm HERE. Still I really haven't heard anything I've said picked apart, or countered with a real working plan, just more bitching that voting doesn't work.

Viva la revolucion, yawn. Cause it's not happening, and THIS monster is villager, pitchfork and torchproof, mostly cause I'm not a monster.

lordy people.

[rhett o rick]

93. They are only nervous because the middle class still has a lot of money to loot.

And they dont want the revolution to happen before they loot more.

[sui generis]

65. let's see I'm technically

in the top 1/2 of one percent. I don't know exactly if that makes me elite or not, but it definitely gives me perspective. I am a democrat and a progressive and yet I hear things like "eat the rich" and I think maybe my family is at risk the same way you might get defensive if I said I thought you were evil horrible people and didn't deserve the things you have.

It's really not productive here - we ARE on the same side, read between the lines. And here's a newsflash even if you just said you hate me for existing - I'm STILL a democrat and a progressive whether you like it or not.

I want better for everyone and I want it done fairly. Am I part of the Buffet equation? No. Not that kind of fatcattery, but still by the numbers. . . .

[Political Heretic]

73. Rich, White, Entitlement. Gotta love it. No one has said you don't "deserve the things you have"

No one has said you don't "deserve the things you have." If for one couldn't care less about whatever you have. I do however, care about a system of plunder capitalism that allows economic royalists to design public policy and influence the political process in which a way as to game the system, cheat ordinary working families and exploit workers.

You are completely entitled to every measure of success you can achieve within a system that isn't distorted and twisted to benefit you and everyone else's expense. You are completely entitled, and in fact I encourage you, to make profit and find success within a system that prioritizes the needs of working class families ahead of the wants and whims of the financial elite - within a system where politicians are not bribed and bought with the rich's money, where unions are not destroyed by wealthy business interests dominating politics, where the people playing the game are not also writing the rules for the game.

Within that system of fairness, go with god and be fruitful!

But a system that provides economic welfare to the super-wealth is unsustainable and inequitable. The only way to maintain a society that has the highest income inequality of any western-economic country in the world and the highest poverty rate of its top twenty western-economic peers is by developing policies that subsidize the wealthy and penalize working class families.

Do you dispute that our policies currently subsidies the wealthy and penalize working class families?

Do you dispute that our political establishment responds to the lobbying of the top income earners in the country, and the lobbying of major business industries, and the advocacy of powerfully financially backed corporate policy institutes?

Do you disagree that when it comes to economic policy, our lawmakers priorities the wants of the financial elite first, and the needs of poor families second?

By the way sport, if you're truly the top .05 of income earners in the country - meaning you are a multi-millionare, then if you honest expect me not to laugh in your face when you say something like "I fear for the economic well-being of my family" well, then you really are crazy.

You have come into a thread and made something personal that was in fact an institutional criticism. And by evoking the Holocaust to defending your multi-milllionare, white, male life you caused most of the rationally thinking world to throw up a little bit in their mouths. It set the tone for a lot of hostility toward you.

But this was never about you. This isn't about individual wealthy people being good or bad. Of course some people are good and some people are bad regardless of how much money they make! This is about a system of institutionalize oppression of the majority for the exponential gain of a ruling minority.

If you aid and support that system of oppression, then you're part of the problem, no matter how much money you make (and a lot of poor people are part of the problem too!)

If you oppose and resist that system, then you are part of the solution, no matter how much money you make.

But it sounds a lot less like you're really worried about whether or not your standing on the side of right or doing all that you can to work for social and economic justice and it sounds a lot more like you were made uncomfortable being reminded how much of your wealth comes from an illegitimate and unjust system of exploitation and took it personally and needed to push back.

Try to stop doing that. :) Instead, try to be part of the solution, not part of the problem by recognizing that your personal financial worth isn't the issue.

Either you stand with the workers or you stand with the rulers. It doesn't matter how much money you have - the choice is simple. So stand with us or don't, but if you think we're going to stop pointing out the system of economic exploitation in America or how powerful interests use their muscle to shape policy in such a way that they can plunder more wealth from the rest of America - you, my rich white friend, are fucking crazy.

[sui generis]

88. oh you did the we

and how much of your produce comes from illegitimate and unjust exploitation.

I am on our side, but it doesn't require a mea culpa from me, or anyone else like me on our side. It doesn't require enrollment into blind allegiance either, and for me it does require more than words, always.

My point in my original post was that we do a lot of words and not a lot of action. Is wealth disparity the real issue? It is AN issue, but is it a vitally important issue? Is characterizing a class of people as a single kind of despiccable person really helpful in any way?

I just wonder - I'm not at all naive about the way the world works, and yes, my hands are calloused, but not because I'm a seasonal migrant worker making Joe Plumber a nice plate of grapes or off season cherries and apples from Peru or Chile, or harvesting chocolate for your chocolate cafeteria brownies, or bananas or any other food crop which any other "poor" person in any other part of the world would consider a luxury . . . all of which comes to YOU from exploitation too.

You're not any less guilty by volume.

Anyway, not your enemy not even after all the invective and nastiness. I get where you're coming from, and I agree mostly on what we think the problems ARE but we disagree on methods. How hard is that to agree to?

Anyway, believe it or not, I am heading back to casa to cook for the spouse & kids and enjoy an evening with friendlier company.

ciao.

[Political Heretic]

94. I'm quite comfortable letting my post, and your response to it, stand on their own for all to see.

The truth sorts itself out.

[rhett o rick]

84. I am sorry but I dont believe you. I may be wrong but to get into the top 1/2 % it is impossible

not to have harmed someone. No child labor in any of your holdings? No environmental infractions? Almost all major corporations are committing some actions that I would consider unfair and many deadly. You want better for everyone, yet what are you willing to sacrifice? I notice that none of the media corporations are owned by progressives. And very few major corporations. I aint buying whatever your selling.

[liberation]

57. I call Godwin's law...

... according to it, this argument is over. And you lost it.

Next.

[rhett o rick]

62. Yes, but the victory is hollow if the loser is ambivalent. nt

[sui generis]

63. oh god the brilliance it hurts

so you clearly had no insight into anything I said, just a generic posture. Careful your face will stick like that.

You know for people to have a counter opinion they must make a counter opinion, or they just sound irrelevant. This isn't about "winning" or "losing", by the way - a discussion is an exchange of ideas, not a pitched battle.

[rhett o rick]

61. It's not that your class wants to kill us, it's that you dont care if we die.

Well asshole, I dont plan on dieing easily.

[sui generis]

70. okay

now you're nuts. Sorry, "my class" means nothing. I don't participate in "my class" the way you think. And you're living in a dangerous fantasy if you think anybody in "that class" gives a shit whether you exist or not. They aren't as paranoid as you (or I) am, so it's really a war of apathy, just like I said.

[Political Heretic]

75. That's pretty much what he just said.

"...fantasy if you think anybody in "that class" gives a shit whether you exist or not."

Sort of exactly what he said.

[sui generis]

87. wow you've found an enemy right under your nose

now it's my turn. Yawn.

Reminder: monster proof. An observation is not the same thing as a judgement but you are a bit too quick to judge. You're out for blood, and I am not. That makes you the egotist: I'm just another DU member.

Why are you so combative? What have I done to YOU? really.

[Political Heretic]

95. Once again, its not about YOU. Try to repeat that to yourself a few thousand times.

[sui generis]

97. I'm just curious

where the other 155,000 DU posters are that have your back on this.

go find a real enemy - you're really starting to look desperate and pathetic. by the way, I'm still here, still gonna be here, still going to be me, and that's not a bad thing. And that's for the foreseeable future.

Here's our dynamic: I say I think we should do more and have higher standards for our politicians. You say I'm a bad person, I say I'm not, you say this isn't all about me. Let's make this about you now. Your pathology is showing. I'll just repeat that once. Your pathology is showing. At least on this topic.

What do you hope to accomplish? Whether or not you believe I'm on YOUR side, I am on the side of progressives and democrats and that's a marriage that might have some cranky moments, but no divorce on the horizon, not matter how much my neighbor thinks we don't belong together.

some more about you. You are a reverse bully. You provoke and provoke until someone pokes you in the man tit and then you claim that you were assaulted. It's every bit as evident and pathetic as a real bully, but note you're still just provoking without even being provocative. Either bring in the posse now or give up the chase sir. I'm not going anywhere and I think you're pretty much a lone ranger.

I am not apologizing for success - and yes a lot of that was luck and being in the right place at the right time with the right skills and vision. It is not a fair world and I've seen the extremes of both sides. I can tell you that I do know people who are your nightmare, and who bear your disdain and animosity - they are just as creepy to me as people who say "eat the rich". But world has more colors than black and white and there are good and bad and complicated people and everyone in between of every income level; to expect them to be anything than WHAT they are is juvenile. You have to stop typing invective and start interacting, and try a little harder to be positive and constructive - it's what communities do, and it's why I'm here and not THERE.

sui out - dude here's to friendlier posting some other day.

[Vidar]

41. K&R.

[northofdenali]

47. No shit?

I've been saying this since Rayguns was elected. They don't want "elections", they want SERFS.

[DuaneBidoux]

52. Warren Buffett said it: There is a class warfare. My side started it and my side's winning.

[pleah]

72. K&R

[winyanstaz]

76. Yes we can no longer ignore that we are under attack...

and the cards are stacked against us.
They have unconstitutional laws in place to keep us in place while they do their dirty deeds..
Obama just quietly extended the Patriot Act for another year.
We are so screwed.

[omega minimo]

80. and the Middle Class went along to get along with it for 30 FUCKING YEARS

:evilfrown:

[Trillo]

89. What income levels describe the middle class?

50K, 100K, 200K, or 1M?

If it's true that in 2001 the Top 400 earned on average about $170,000,000.00 per year, then an income of $1,000,000.00 per year is a relative pittance (170:1).

That would mean that anyone who makes less is poor. But don't suggest that to the truly poor, for righteous indignation will surely follow. They'd love to have 50K per year, given the Federal Poverty level of, what is it, about $15K for one.

We've all been played for fools by the few at the very top.

Maybe if we work harder we'll get there too. Work work work, little busy bees. The smile of good fortune awaits you in the land of tomorrow, tomorrow, it's only a day away.

[AlienGirl]

90. The real distinction: Working class=you earn a wage; upper class=your money makes money

Someone who is making $100K a year but still has to work for their money *is still working class*.

The identifiable distinction is between people who have to work to get wages, and people whose wealth does the bulk of the working for them.

Tucker