We do have best health CARE in the world...

[Green_Lantern]

Our way of accessing it sucks and it's delivery is based on how insurance companies can make a profit which is horrible. But the actual medicine and care is pretty good.

The fact people from other countries come here for procedures shows our doctors are great but that doesn't mean those people want to deal with our insurance system.

The question to ask GOP who say we have the best health care is why then do you want a system where insurance constantly second guesses doctors and limits access.

When they say we want government-controlled health care we should "No, we just don't want insurance controlled health care."

[dkf]

1. I'm not sure that is a true statement.

I would say our top of the line specialists are the best, but under that, who knows?

[Green_Lantern]

2. I just think it's a good argument....

That turns a GOP talking point back on them.

[ClassWarrior]

28. I agree. Well framed and well done.

NGU.

[laughingliberal]

3. There are also people of means in the US who go to other countries for treatments we are holding up

Sure, we have some very good specialists and treatments here and there but the health care here is not, overall, heads and shoulders above other countries'. Even with access to care for everyone, it will not be great masses who have access to the parts of our system that might be better than what you find elsewhere.

[eridani]

52. And there are plenty of people of modest means who go abroad to save money

http://www.understanding-medicaltourism.com/medical-tourism-statistics.php

While other countries have benefitted from this, the US health care providers stand to lose billions of dollars in revenue should this trend continue.

On the other hand, medical tourism will definitely have a positive impact on the economies of favorite destinations like Cuba, Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama, Brazil, Malaysia and other countries in North America and Europe.

Take the case of Malaysia. Malaysia's medical tourism industry has seen a significant growth over recent years. Reports from the Association of Private Hospitals in Malaysia revealed that the number of medical tourists in the country has grown from 75,210 patients in 2001 to 296,687 patients in 2006 The large volume of patients in 2006 brought approximately $59 million in revenue.

In Costa Rica, an estimated 150,000 foreigners traveled to the country in 2006, usually for dental procedures and plastic surgery.

India, on the other hand, reported that about 500,000 foreign patients traveled to India for medical care in 2005 from an estimated 150,000 patients in 2002. It is estimated that the rapid growth of the medical tourism industry in India could bring in as much as $2.2 billion per year by 2012.

[Donnachaidh]

74. people of TRUE *modest means* cannot afford to go overseas for treatment.

If you can afford a plane ticket to Malaysia you do NOT fall into the *modest means* category. Not by a long shot.

Modest means folks will take a Greyhound to Tijuana to fill prescriptions or get dental work done. They can't afford to just hop on a flight to the other side of the world.

:eyes:

[eridani]

78. We send quite a few people to Canada by bus

http://www.healthcareforallwa.org/helpline/

[Donnachaidh]

79. that's far different from *going abroad* n/t

[polly7]

4. Well, we do have quite a few excellent world-class facilities here,

top-notch specialists and always have had innovative treatment, so really nothing to complain about up here.

[Oregone]

5. Im not sure you do

Besides, access is part of measuring quality of care. ITs moronic that people separate them

[SPedigrees]

6. We do NOT have the best health care in the world.

Put that myth to bed. We're well below all other technologically advanced nations. We're #37 as far as our overall health system performance. The actual health of our people ranks at #72. The degradation of both our health care and our public education is a disgrace.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_performance_ranks.html
Health Performance Rank By Country
Health system attainment and performance in all Member States, ranked by eight measures, estimates for 1997
From the World Health Organization, provided by http://www.photius.com/rankings.

On edit: These stats are from a decade ago, but I'm willing to bet our standings have not improved since.

[dysfunctional press]

14. that's mainly because not evryone has access to it.

for the people that can- our healthcare is VERY good.

[SPedigrees]

26. #37 ranking has nothing to do with accessibility.

You're confusing that number with #72 aka health of the country's population.

Overall health care performance refers to the quality of our hospitals and doctors for those who are able to access them.

The disparity between overall health care performance and health of our populace is the indicator of lack of access as well as lack of preventative care.

[ClassWarrior]

31. Whatever. The OP's trying to say that we should grant the point to RWers...

...in order to make our point, i.e. we're not claiming that the care itself has failed, it's the accessibility and the availability of it that's the problem.

NGU.

[SPedigrees]

34. Bad mistake. Educate the public as to how bad our health care is

and you'll get more Americans seeing the need for reform. If people on the democratic underground are not even cognizant of the dilapidated state of our health care, then it should be no surprise that mainstream America doesn't see the need for HCR.

[ClassWarrior]

41. Okay, why don't you start by educating us? How about some good, solid facts besides...

...random rankings?

NGU.

[SPedigrees]

64. Since when are WHO statistics "random rankings?"

What would you consider a more qualified source?

[dysfunctional press]

36. lack of preventative care is one part of the lack of access...

the average american's diet and physical activity(or lack thereof) is also a big part of the #37 problem.

for a lot of people, there's also quite a bit of stress involved with living in a capitalist society...and stress can magnify the effects of other physiological problems, as well as create a lot of it's own.

[niyad]

7. I just ask them why, if the system is so great, no other countries want to emulate it (and watch

them scratch their heads at the word)

also, if our CARE is so great, why is our life expectancy not at the top. We are 37th in infant mortality, amoung other measurements.

[SlingBlade]

8. YEP !

[Kermitt Gribble]

9. Your first argument is the best I've heard

to combat the supporters of our current system. I will definitely be using that one - thanks!

[Green_Lantern]

10. well they don't want insurance

Controlled health care.

[TheBigotBasher]

55. Insurance controlled health care is what you have now.

If it was not for the British NHS, free at the point of use, to everyone regardless of wealth or poverty, there would be no Steven Hawkins.

[nightrain]

12. exactly.

[dysfunctional press]

16. the answer to your second question is not a true reflection of the available healthcare...

it's more a reflection of the fact that so many people have no access to it.

[CTyankee]

20. Well, I've heard the RW talking point about our life expectancy explained thus:

we have more violent crime in this country than others, such as western european nations.

Really. They say that with a straight face.

[demosincebirth]

11. Why are we ranked 38th in the world?

[dysfunctional press]

13. because so much of the population has no access to it.

but yes- if you can get it, we do have very good medical practices.

[Greyhound]

18. That's very debatable anymore. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

21. i'd still rather have anything done here than abroad.

:shrug:

[Greyhound]

24. I'd go to Japan or many European nations, given the choice, over American institutions.

One major factor, beyond the fact that all the bleeding edge research has been done outside the U.S. for the last decade, is the work-camp ethic that permeates American health care. Providers are pushed and threatened to do more with less and always delay, delay, delay.

Two minutes per patient, write 'em a scrip and get 'em out the door, One complaint per appointment, sorry can't help you now, but we can get you back in in six weeks. No, I'd prefer working with someone interested in my problem, not their supervisors stopwatch.

[amborin]

57. i wouldn't

access to health care is a huge problem in this country; but the top medical centers are best in the world

[SPedigrees]

37. No one's stopping you, if you have the means to pay. Moi, I'd go elsewhere. nt

[dysfunctional press]

38. and no one's stopping you either, if you have the means to pay.

i have medicare, which only pays 80%...and because i'm disabled- nobody will, nor has to, sell me a supplemental policy for the other 20%...so, an expensive procedure/condition could still bankrupt me.

[SPedigrees]

39. I can't afford to go to a top quality facility in another country either.

That is where I'd go if I had the means. As I don't, I'll have to settle for a hospital in this country when/if surgery is necessary. I just won't delude myself that I'm getting the "world's best health care."

[dysfunctional press]

49. and you're certainly welcome to your opinion.

:crazy:

[SPedigrees]

35. Because our hospitals and clinics are substandard when compared with those in other countries. nt

[Puzzler]

15. And, apparently Rolls Royce make the best cars in the world...

... but most of us can't afford them.

[Greyhound]

17. Sorry, but it just isn't so. We have some of the best doctors and facilities

for many maladies, but the lead in medical science we had was explicitly wasted through our religious insanity and the government they foisted upon us.

You simply can't stop advancing for a decade and stay on top. We are second rate or worse in almost every field.

[SPedigrees]

65. So very true. We once were a world leader in science and medicine.

Those days have long departed. I remember the sinking feeling I had in the pit of my stomach reading about Bush's ban on stem cell research a decade ago. It was an event symptomatic of America's decline. And it was not surprising that our brightest researchers left the country in droves to pursue their research in friendlier, less backward countries. They're doubtless settled abroad with their families and won't be coming back.

[Greyhound]

70. It's happening right now on every front and we just keep trying to wish it away.

So sad.

[and-justice-for-all]

19. Insurance companies are death panels...

and we do not need death panels.

[Terra Alta]

22. Actually, I would not mind

government controlled health care.

And what good is having the so-called "best" health care in the world, if most people can't afford it?

[Cleita]

25. The fact is we could have both if the right people in charge

would make it so. Many roadmaps and plans to accomplish this have been posited from the universal health plan idea offered by the Physicians for a National Health Plan to the bills introduced into our Congress HR 676 and S 703 and California SB 840 and other bills like it, which Arnold keeps vetoing. The work has been done. The fact that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid won't let the CBO rate it speaks volumes to me about their lack of willingness to go up against the corporate health care industry.

[Juche]

23. No we don't

I haven't traveled internationally, but there are dozens of developed nations, as well as dozens of developing nations that have high quality health care.

For example, in the US we have a labor shortage of nurses. I've heard in Thailand or India if you go there for care the nurses are more attentive. In fact I've read stories of people going to Mexico or Thailand claiming the quality of care was better. The doctors and nurses were more attentive and made more time for them, and their rooms had more privacy.

So I don't buy it. It is just american exceptionalism, which is the same attitude that got us into many of these messes to begin with.

We have a lot we can learn from the rest of the world. We aren't default better than everyone else.

[elocs]

27. For individuals who have the money and the access we have the best health care in the world,

but that is certainly not true for the U.S. population in general.

[ClassWarrior]

44. Exactly. The OP wants to make sure the first clause of that sentence gets heard...

"For individuals who have the money and the access..."

NGU.

[havocmom]

29. When most of the people who can actually get in to a doctor only get 10 minutes, it ain't healthcare

The whole system is broken. Making people buy insurance that has not real competition is not reform.

[upi402]

30. No. My entire family had better quality care in developing contries. n/t

[EFerrari]

32. Technology that is not delivered is not health care. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

43. Correct. That's the perception the OP wants to fight. The RW has convinced people that the...

...technology and the expertise ARE the care, and downplay the fact that they AREN'T delivered.

NGU.

[EFerrari]

54. There has to be a name for that. That's how they sell people everything, isn't it?

That's how they get people to vote against themselves, their kids and their neighbors.

ETA: Maybe it's just plain old bait and switch.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. In fact people go to other countries 'for procedures' too.

There is no objective quantifiable basis for the assertion that we have the best healthcare. We might have world class facilities - but so do other nations. We also have some really shitty facilities. But how should we objectively measure healthcare? Shouldn't the measure, the objective measure, be the overall health of the population? We fail on that measure.

[depakid]

40. That's why other nations score higher on major health outcome measures, huh?

:crazy:

[ClassWarrior]

42. What was that about the "Democrat" establishment on that other thread?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

48. Here it is...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=201666&mesg_id=201712

What's up with THAT? :shrug:

NGU.

[depakid]

67. "What's up with THAT?"

It's called history- in this case, the history of the 1984 primaries (in all their superdelegate, money funneling, loser backing glory).

[G_j]

45. it's sort of like saying a restaurant serves the best food in the world

though 95% of the population can't afford to eat there.

[ClassWarrior]

47. Exactly the OP's point! Bingo! You got it!

NGU.

[G_j]

50. It is a valid point

A Ferrari is an well made car. What difference does that make to me?

The point is quite valid, in that the reality is the "best" care is accessible only with
$$$$$$$$$ (lots of money)

[Politicub]

46. Do you have research?

I've looked for studies that substantiate the claim that US has the best health care in the world.

And you know what? I've always turned up empty handed.

Sometimes things get repeated so often people believe that it must be true. The US having the best health care in the world doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

We have great health care, but we only hold ourselves back if we believe what we have is "best."

And if you don't have access to preventative care or after care, it doesn't matter if you have a great health care system or not.

IMHO we should not say that we're the best until we solve the problems with access.

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

53. It is in the top medical journals. Repeatedly.

Seriously, if you came up "empty handed" then you didn't look very hard. It is widely documented that for most medical outcomes the US significantly outperforms other countries. Almost all new medical technology originates and is first available in the US.

Not only that, it is widely documented that Americans receive more preventative care than most of their industrialized counterparts. Indeed, if you had actually done any research you would have read that the high levels of preventative and diagnostic care in the US is frequently cited as contributing to the atypically high cost of care through excessive usage.


If the Democrats want to have credibility on healthcare, they need to quit making shit up. There is so much wrong with US healthcare that it is reeks of disingenuous partisanship that we have to invent things that are "wrong" but actually aren't. US medical outcomes are unambiguously the best and most of the world's medical technology is developed in the US, but the insurance systems is a godawful mess and our lifestyles seriously damage things like life expectancy. Let's focus on what's broken.

[amborin]

59. i agree

our centers of excellence are path-breaking, cutting-edge, outstanding

it's the access and the overall system that drastically needs fixing

[SPedigrees]

66. How about citing some of those assertions. Med journal citation? It is not superior technology

causing the exorbitant cost of HC in this country; it is the unbridled greed of big pharma and insur cos.

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

68. Too lazy to Google?

Plenty of studies of relative outcome and efficacy in the well-known medical journals (Lancet, NEJM, etc). Plenty of studies on the marginal cost effectiveness of just about everything is covered ad nauseum in medical economics literature -- needless to say everyone ignores the results. As I recall, the marginal effectiveness of half of the diagnostic and preventative medicine Americans receive is approximately zero, a waste.

The facts are both complicated and inconvenient, but they are available. I've noticed that neither political party has any interest in rigorous academic studies of the problems with our healthcare system even though they exist in quantity.

[SPedigrees]

76. He who makes an assertion gets to be the search monkey.

I backed up my own assertion with facts from the world health organization. Now let's see citations from you for the myth that United States health care is best in the world.

[devilgrrl]

51. Health care so good that other nations are falling over themselves to have the same system as ours.

:popcorn:

[amborin]

58. the system is broken, yes; but that doesn't mean there aren't

centers that provide outstanding, cutting-edge care
access to good health care is a huge problem; that's why i and many others argue for single payer; but our "centers of excellence" are leaders in medical care;

[devilgrrl]

61. that part I agree on...

I was taking a shot at the anti-public option crowd.

[Ildem09]

56. We. Do. Not. I repeat Do. Not Have The Best Health Care.

Sure it's decent enough if you can afford it. we also have worse rates for cancer, obesity, heart conditions etc. I'd rather be anywhere in western Europe or Canada than here

[MellowDem]

60. We DO have the best health care...

it is true. But the system to access it is broken and unfair. A lot of the reason we have the best health care is because it is so incredibly expensive. I don't think it is the most efficient, by any means, but in terms of medical technology and development, the best doctors and hospitals, the US is generally way above the rest. That's what you get when you have the richest nation on Earth spending two times on health care per person what the next highest-spending country does.

To deny we have the best doctors, medical technology, etc. is a stupid and actually false way for some to pat themselves on the backs as anti-American (and therefore somehow more authentically liberal). It's also stupid as a tool for argumentation, because for one, it's false, and for another, the idea that we have all of these great services at our disposal but refuse to cover 50 million Americans should be a wake up call.

The quality of our healthcare is #1 for sure, but the efficiency and fairness of the system are horrible.

My dad works with a lot of Canadians in the oil buesiness, and he always tells me how they hate their healthcare system up there. A lot of these Canadians live in the US and they love the care down here. He tries to use this as an argument that our health care is great the way it is. I always just tell him that of course his co-workers love the healthcare here, because they are relatively wealthy, and if you have lots of money, the US, with a system that is geared towards serving the wealthy at the expense of everyone else, will be better for you, than, say, the Canadian healthcare system, where even a wealthy person won't have the opportunity to have much greater disparities in healthcare service than from the poor.

Many on here cite the WHO report which ranks us #37, but that same report ranked Canada #30. You would think from the way some people talk about the US healthcare system in comparison to all other developed nations, Canada's should be in the top 10.

[amborin]

62. great post!

"To deny we have the best doctors, medical technology, etc. is a stupid and actually false way for some to pat themselves on the backs as anti-American (and therefore somehow more authentically liberal). It's also stupid as a tool for argumentation, because for one, it's false, and for another, the idea that we have all of these great services at our disposal but refuse to cover 50 million Americans should be a wake up call."

+10000

[allincompassing]

69. Healthcare

With all do respect, the fact that we have some of the best trained medical practitioners in the world, say's very little about how we as a nation allow so many to die from lack of treatment each and every day.

I too, read the WHO statistics, with sincere alarm...it's unfortunate that our capitalist ambitions supersede our compassion for our fellow citizens. I don't post here often, but my significant other just got diagnosed with Cancer, and it's going to take almost two months to get the appropriate CT Scan and follow-up test, just to make sure that it hasn't spread to other parts of her body. This is not a political topic for politics sake, this is about life and death...yours,mine and many people we love.

Can anyone tell me why this should be allowed to happen in the richest country on earth? This is why I'm furious with Obama, and all the corporate sellouts that claim to represent the people of this country. I'll even wager that most of these corporate whores don't even remember that Blue Cross was started in Texas as a non-profit provider. The same good for nothing hypocrites that just proposed rate increases of up to 39% in California.

If anything, these a...holes should be very happy I'm not in the D.C. area, cause my honest opinion is that the Tea Baggers aren't the one's who should be pissed, it should really be the Democrats that elected these good for nothing, slimy, two-faced, lying, slugs...including the so called Messiah.
1% of 300,000,000 is 3,000,000...that's how many people actually get good healthcare. The rest of us get hand-me downs. Healthcare is a RIGHT, NOT A PRIVILEGE for only the oligarchial few.

[polly7]

73. Check the polls as to how many Canadians 'hate' our

health-care system. It's 87% that wouldn't trade it, last time I checked. Polls for the quality of care pts. said they received were very high also. Is your Dad in Alberta, the 'we got ours, screw you province?" trying so hard to privatize health-care?

[polly7]

75. Strange too that so many from down there wait to get their

surgeries done up here. Dual citizens. Some have told me the care is much better, it's not the money part that persuaded them. We believe what we want to, I guess. I'll take the word of those who've told me.

[yurbud]

63. I like it! too bad most people will never hear it.

[BlueJac]

71. we have the most expensive health care in the world....

which does equate to the best! People in this country are suffering for profits and wasteful wars!!!

[Froward69]

72. unreccers all over today...

found on greatest, reced at 3 to four...

FReepers are afraid of us having real knowledge or accurate counterpoints...

[Romulox]

77. I'd love to show you Annapolis hospital in Westland, Michigan.

NOBODY comes from other countries to go there--just poor people from the surrounding communities.