Why Liberals Must Distance Themselves from Policies That Aren't Liberal.

[mmonk]

I wasn't going to post for awhile and take a break (per this thread). But I thought I would express why I think it is imporatant for Liberals to distance themselves from both Republican and Third Way Democratic policies. My reasoning is not one of division or disloyalty. But rather one where I think it is imperative that failures stemming from these policies must not falsely be hung around our necks. If we are associated with these failures that do not improve the lives of the average working American, these failures will still be laid at our doorstep when it comes to blame due to present propaganda and will hinder our efforts to affect policy in a positive way in the future. Therefore, I believe we must remain absolutely clear of what we want if we want to increase our numbers. We must afford every opportunity to define what we stand for and why and reject any association with policy that does not reflect our views even if at times that policy is implemented by our party. Otherwise, we will continue to be rolled in the resulting confusion that propaganda brings forth. My apologies to any third way Democrats here, it isn't personal. We just differ and my feeling is when the third way wins, it is usually followed by Republican victories that were not necessary. We liberal progressives are fighting for survival and relevance.

[pipoman]

1. #1. Abandon Free Trade Agreements With Third World Governments

#2. Abandon Gun Control Legislation at the national level.

Done..

[mmonk]

2. Many of those "free trade" agreements have hollowed out our economy.

All because those multi-national interests want unfettered control of economies and labor.

[pampango]

6. Wrong. European countries have more "free trade" than we do. Their economies are not "hollowed out".

Canada and Australia are similarly progressive and, like European countries, trade more than we do.

What had decimated out middle class is tax cuts for the rich (making our tax system regressive), deregulation of business and the financial industry, the weakening of unions and workers' rights, the shredding of the social safety net, the lack of national health care, and a host of other issues. Every progressive industrialized country in the world trades more than we do and yet their quality of life is higher than ours.

If our economy is "hollowed out", it is not because of what foreigners have done to us (trade), but what we have done to ourselves.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. But the "free" trade agreements made it easier for businesses to dump American workers

Besides, until the Eastern European countries were allowed in, the Western European countries had cmoplementary strengths and weaknesses and living standards more evenly matched than, say, the U.S. and Mexico.

The absorption of Eastern Europe has caused problems, such as British companies using Polish workers in the same way that U.S. companies use illegal Latino workers (to crowd their own working class out of entry-level jobs), and the interconnectedness of the euro economies means that Greece's gambles with "modern" financial products are now everyone's problem.

[mmonk]

15. I disagree in that the same companies that ship our jobs out here

do not leave Europe even though there are more rules for doing business there. Europeans have decided to concentrate on the rules of the game where here, we have no rules for doing business in this market. We conduct our trade on the idea our companies can go to third world countries and the debt will be paid directly to them and they can operate rules free.

[ixion]

3. End the so-called 'war' on drugs and terror

neither one of those is a progressive position, IMO.

[Union Yes]

4. corRECtamundo! nt

[jaxx]

5. What exactly are "third way Democrats"?

Is this a new category?

[vadawg]

7. its probuably the majority of people who vote democrat, i wonder how many votes the party would get

if it totally abandonded the middle, probuably enough to come in third...

[jaxx]

8. So the third way Democrats are the real base of the party?

I've not heard of this category before and it's baffling according to what is usually said on here.

Thanks for the answer, by the way.

[vadawg]

10. no proble, they may not be the party workers and donation givers but they have the most important

thing, their votes

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Do they really have the most votes?

Or is it that the party establishment runs only DLCers and sabotages progressives who try to run against them? Several such stories have played out with commentary from DU.

When was the last time the party mainstream actually sponsored a left progressive populist and promoted him/her with the same vigor that they promote their pet DLC types?

Oh, wait, they have this a priori theory that "voters don't like liberals." They're sort of like parents who say, "My kids don't like fresh vegetables," when they've never even tried to feed their kids fresh vegetables.

Do they really think that anyone outside the small population of talk radio zombies loves having their jobs shipped overseas (something the DLC actively promoted), having their children die in useless wars, or any of the other aspects of the status quo that create hardships for ordinary people?

[vadawg]

14. i think its pretty obvious that the hated moderate democrats have more votes than the liberal base

look at who wins the primaries, whether you like it or not you couldnt even get the liberal base to agree across the board do you really believe that if the party went hard left then the votes would be there... Id be interested in seeing how you could get the votes in order to win..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Look who wins primaries?

Look who gets party and corporate FUNDING in primaries.

[vadawg]

28. and who do you think would get the votes, do you really believe that the people who voted in blue

dogs would vote for a far left in their perception candidate. I dont get the reasoning that you believe that if someone from the perceived far left only had a chance then they would carry the same number of votes as someone like the president who i think most will agree is not far left but more of a cenralist..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. The local parties nominate only Blue Dogs

because of their preconceived notion that voters in Republican-leaning districts love having their jobs outsourced.

It has been so long since anyone nominated a REAL leftist in any of those districts that the voters, most of whom are thoroughly disgusted with both parties, would welcome such a person as a refreshing change.

Oh, and you have to DEFINE "far left" before you can use it as a credible epithet.

Apparently to the DLC it means anyone who doesn't think distribution of shareholders' dividends is a holy sacrament.

[vadawg]

40. i think the party understands it better than you, they get blue dogs for a reason

yeah the jobs might get outsourced, but the alternative is a whole lot worse in the eyes of the voters who vote for blue dogs, would you really want bernie sanders running the country or kucinich, i can guarentee most people wouldnt...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. Considering that an awful lot of people don't like either the Republicans

or the mainstream Democrats, Bernie Sanders running the country might be a refreshing change.

Would you rather have Ron Paul running the country? Now that WOULD be nightmare.

[mmonk]

17. People vote for them because they have NO CHOICE in the matter

as Democrats in some races.

[vadawg]

18. and you really think that the same moderate democrats are going to vote for someone who is way left

its not going to happen, you try running a far left candidate in the majority of districts inthe US and they will lose, why do you think that the party has to have blue dogs running throughout the country as it is..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. How often has it been tried?

Your very use of the term "far left," which should be reserved for Communists and radical Socialists, is a dead giveaway.

Dennis Kucinich, Russ Feingold, Peter DeFazio, Marcy Kaptur, Keith Ellison "far left"?

Aside from the fact that DLCers never define "far left" (they use it in the same sneering way that the radio guys use "liberal"), only in the upside down world of American politics, as redefined by the Republicans and the DLC working together for the past 30 years to make the nation safe for unbridled corporate power, would these people be considered "far left."

In the rest of the world, the political figures mentioned above would be considered, at most, center-left.

It's an indication of how far we are on the road to fascism (and I don't use that term lightly-- I used to hate it when people overused it in the 1960s), that common sense, compassion, and a concern for the welfare of the ordinary American over the interests of corporate shareholders are considered "far left."

[vadawg]

22. yup i would say that the people you mentioned would be considered far left to most of america

whether you like it or not, and do you really think that someone like kucinich who you think is center left but god love him i would say is pretty far left could win the presidency...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. What does "far left " MEAN?

Define "far left."

What EXACTLY about these political figures is so all-fired "far left"?

If you can't define "far left" exactly, then you come off like one of those talk radio listeners who refers to Obama as a "Marxist," i.e. just repeating what your role models say without thinking about what it means.

If "far left" politicians are rejected by the voters (and so few have run that it's hard to get a statistically meaningful sample), just who has done the most to demonize politicians who hold positions that everyone considered centrist 40 years ago? Why is the DLC playing the Republicans' game and telling the public that what are essentially New Deal Dems are "too far left"?

[vadawg]

41. okay where you are is the center and anybody way over there is far left

and over that way is far right, its all a matter of where you stand, for you someone like webb of VA might be right of center to me hes left of center, its all down to perspective and the way voters look at the politicians, sanders might get voted in in his district but he would lose in a monumental landslide in mine, though a blue dog may win in mine...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. If you think Webb is "left of center," that says more about you than about Webb

Webb, "left of center"? Wow.

[mmonk]

23. Depends on how you define far left.

Many define far left as what used to be mainstream in America. Things like living wages, fair trade, civil liberties, unions, etc.

[vadawg]

24. yup it depends on what the electorate define as far left, lets be honest

we know that someone like kucinich would never win the presidency due to his politics, not to mention the alien stuff but you know what i mean, you would lose a big chunk of the democratic vote id you tried to run someone on the perceived far left.

[mmonk]

29. People can be convinced of just about anything here.

That is not my concern. My concern is being honest, not saying conservatism is centrist or a middle.

[vadawg]

30. and the honest truth is that neither you nor i define what is the left and right

its done by the electorate and where they believe that line is, and everyone has a different idea of where that line is, and we got to remember that the line changes depending on what the subject matter is and also where in the country you are... i guess what you see as middle left i would see as far left depending on the subject matter..

[DisgustedInMN]

46. Utter nonsense.

You are absolutely incorrect. No sir, "the electorate" does NOT define what is "left, right, or center." Policies of said party or candidate define it, period, end of debate. The only people who buy into the crap you're peddling are low information, easily fooled marks. You clearly, know not of what you speak.

[Raineyb]

34. No it doesn't. Just because the definition of what is center has been

pulled to the right doesn't mean that this definition of the center is correct. You can put a can on your head and call it a hat. It doesn't make it a hat.

[vadawg]

35. no but your definition is going to be different than someone else

cause i dont see some almighty being that decides where that line lies do you. how do think the center should be defined at which point is it left and at which point is it right...

[JoeyT]

45. It would sort of depend on the platform he/she ran on.

If they ran on a "Get rid of free trade/Kill or scale back the war on drugs/End abuse of civil liberties" platform, they could march around flying a flag with a hammer and sickle on it and probably still win in a landslide if they could convince people they meant what they said.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. You are absolutely right

A platform that understood and met people's real needs (instead of playing to their prejudices as the Republicans do or putting forth a wonkish yuppie platform, as the DLC does) would be a winner.

Parties in Senate and Congressional districts should do an honest assessment of the biggest problems in their districts, brainstorm on feasible ways of alleviating two or three of those problems, and devise a publicity campaign with every candidate and party official repeating those two or three points in the same simple language at every opportunity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Having seen a bit of politics from the inside in my life

I KNOW how DLC types ostracize, browbeat, and in general make life miserable for anyone who challenges them, whether for elected office or local party activism.

[Raineyb]

31. The third way Democrats are the ones whose interest lies in the money.

They're the ones who kowtow to corporate interest while paying lip service to the base. Once in office they end up voting like Republicans and the sycophants on the board expect us to pretend that these DINOs are actually Democrats.

[Edweird]

9. DLC'ers. Republicans that call themselves Democrats.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. It's what the DLC sometimes call themselves

It's like Tony Blair's "third way"--pretend to be Labour but don't undo anything the Tories instituted.

[jaxx]

16. Really? They call themselves that?

I thought we were all Democrats and didn't know there was a caste system in the party.

Who's on first?

[Starry Messenger]

32. It's on their website:

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=128&subid=187&contentid=895

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ka.cfm?kaid=128

[jaxx]

33. Thanks, I really had never heard it before.

I don't like the terminology, but some of it isn't bad. If this was there since Clinton, why is it just coming out now...the usage?

[LWolf]

25. "When the third way wins, it is usually followed by Republican victories..."

I agree.

[xchrom]

26. Recommend

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. I don't vote for Republicans, even if they have (D) behind their names. K&R

[omega minimo]

36. Are "third way Dems" the ones who sold the nation to corporations?

[laughingliberal]

39. Agree 100%. HCR is a case in point

Republicans have painted the HCR bill as a 'government takeover' of health care. Now, if it truly were a government takeover many people would be helped by it and it would be popular once it was instituted. However, it is a huge serving of American public to private industry and people will hate it. Having convinced the public this is a government takeover it will further turn people against social safety nets and the meme of 'government can't do anything right' will persist.

[Greyhound]

44. K&R, but the 'enter' key does not bite.

Please use it once in awhile.
:D
:kick: & R

[Echo In Light]

48. In my view, moderates are often like the spouse who knows the other is abusing a child...

... yet does nothing to stop it, and goes to great lengths to downplay the seriousness of the situation.