Weird to read 2001 words of Michael Pearl on "Biblical chastisement"...in light of recent events.

[madfloridian]

The fact that a child being subjected to such techniques recently died adds more meaning to the words Pearl wrote in 2001. Thanks to Shallah Kali for the post.

From Michael Pearl, Debi Pearl's other half, in 2001.

In Defense of Biblical Chastisement, Part 1

If you read the many published accounts of studies done on “violence to children,” it is clear that there is a crusade to wipe out Biblical child training. Opponents call it “corporal punishment,” which means punishment to the body. Their first argument against Biblical discipline is to call it punishment. The Bible calls it chastisement with a rod. We call it training. The spankings we give our children do not resemble punishment. We are not angry. We don’t lose control. We are not desirous to make children suffer for their misdeeds. Application of the rod is only a small but essential part of our training technique. You must first understand our position if you would fault us.

Those words sound very hollow now indeed.

More:

The scale of media opinion has tipped, and they now assume that Christians are guilty of some evil in their application of the rod. Propaganda has created the impression that our methods are the last remnants of a medieval practice that is certainly destined to go the way of slavery or restriction of women’s rights. They think it is just a matter of time before enlightenment filters down to put out the remaining shades of darkness. It’s tragic and amusing, but opponents assume they hold the moral high ground.

At the moment, the government usually takes a “don’t tell, we won’t ask” approach. But we read of frequent arrests where parents are jailed and children are removed from their homes for nothing more than parents spanking their children in the traditional Biblical manner. Spanking is still too widely practiced for the police to intrude into homes without cause, seeking out offenders. But those opposed to spanking are fully in the propaganda stage, trying to swing opinion to their side. By publishing stories of parents going to jail, they have driven believers underground. We are compelled to defend traditional Biblical practices.

Spanking, Mr. Pearl? Perhaps you meant beating?

Playing the victim may not help the family whose child recently died.

There is also a Part II to Pearl's defense of the methods used by him and his wife, Debi.

In Defense of Biblical Chastisement, Part 2

You must also condition their bodies to obedience by seizing many opportunities throughout the day to walk them through acts of obedience. As the military drills their soldiers, you must drill your children. We have discussed this many times, and since our subject is the rod, we will not go into the training aspect here, but we want you to see training and discipline in perspective.

The rod in training

Those who oppose the use of the rod view it as an act of violence. Even among those meek Christians who use the rod in moderation, there are some who view it as punishment—“whipping them back into line.”

Others have discovered the power of using the rod in training. If you would learn to use the rod in training, it is possible that you would never have to use it in punishment. If you put off use of the rod until the child gets crazy with rebellion, and you wait until you are thoroughly provoked, you are in danger of acting with a disposition to punish. By then, it has gotten personal with you. You are thinking, “How dare that child defy me; I will show that little brat!” Ugly indeed.

The "meek" Christians who use the rod in moderation? That is an alarming statement.

I would love for Mr. Pearl to explain how the rod feels different to a child when used in "training" and when used as "punishment."

This is scary stuff. And worse, he urges parents to be careful not to let others see them doing this. Pretty doggone sneaky.

Public or private?

Don’t be so indiscreet as to spank your children in public—including the church restroom. I get letters regularly telling of trouble with in-laws who threaten to report them to the authorities. Parents have called the Gestapo on their married children. Church friends who have noses longer than the pews on which they perch can cause a world of trouble. If you cannot get them trained before going out in public, stay home and read our four books again.

Get them "trained" before going out in public? Sounds like he is referring to a dog, not a child.

There is more given in detail at their website about the proper way to inflict pain.

While spanking your child and she cries and is upset about it (very obviously if you are hitting your child with supply line, they are going to be in pain and not happy about it), Michael Pearl says this:

"When she screams or flees, calmly follow through by physically subduing her. Sit on her, if you have to, and slowly explain that you will not tolerate this resistance. Explain in a normal tone (She will eventually stop screaming and listen) that you are going to give her, say, five licks for the original offense and an additional two licks for the fit. Slowly apply the five licks, counting out loud. When I say slowly, I mean with a thirty second gap between each lick and a calm explanation to the screaming child that you are not the least impressed except that you are going to spank harder and she still gets the additional two licks plus one more for her ongoing screaming. When you have finally arrived at five well- anticipated and carefully counted licks, say, “OK, your spanking is over; that is the five licks you got for hitting your brother, but now I must give you two more for trying to run away.” Give her one lick and say, “Now, that is one of the licks for running away; you have one more coming.” Give the second lick, and then calmly and slowly explain that all her licks are over now, except for the one additional lick she incurred for continuing to scream during the spanking. After you have finished, tell her that you are going to let her up now, if she stops screaming, otherwise you are going to give her one additional lick. If she stops, or at least makes a great effort to, then you have won. You may never have to go through this horrible time again. But, if she is continuing to scream in defiance, you have the option of continuing to warn and spank, or of ceasing here with a parting warning: “Next time you better not run and throw a fit; for if you do, you will only get more licks and harder ones.”

This is alarming. It does not seem "Christian" to me, it seems harsh and ugly. The result of following a punitive God instead of a loving one.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. OH. MY. GAWD.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin18.htm
The pro-spanking position of
authors Debi and Michael Pearl

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/05/25/the_pearls/index.html
Spare the quarter-inch plumbing supply line, spoil the child

:puke: :wtf: :wow: :nuke: :scared: :banghead:

[madfloridian]

10. At your link: "The pursuit of flawless children is a cruel sort of domestic idolatry"

It is infuriating to read about hitting kids with a rod when they are so little.

Flawless...a dream

[alfredo]

15. It's called "beating the Devil out of Children." I can see

where a parent might think the devil has possession of a two year old, but that doesn't give them permission to beat their children.

[Richard Steele]

2. Corporal punishment helped make me the man I am today.

If there's a better argument against it, I haven't heard it.

There is no sane and loving parent on this planet
who ever wanted their little boy to turn into me.

[REP]

3. I'm NOT arguing for corporal punishment/beatings/abuse at all but

unless you're completely different in Real Life™, you seem like a fine and decent person to me. Perhaps despite your upbringing.

[Richard Steele]

6. I am a bit different in real life. I am COMPLETENTLY different inside my head.

Yes, I "seem" like a fine and decent person...
but it takes me alot of effort to SEEM that way.

Five minutes inside of my head would give you nightmares.

[REP]

8. Oh yeah?

I think that's true of all of us. Or maybe I just want to believe that....

[Richard Steele]

9. I tell myself that I'm just more in touch with my subconscious mind than most people....

If you need to tell yourself things, that's a good one.
Feel free to use it.

[madfloridian]

4. Heh heh

I consider the Pearls tactics more than corporal punishment....it is cruelty.

I survived some spankings, and few thin switches on the legs.

[Richard Steele]

7. I agree- it is cruelty. nm

[JDPriestly]

31. Children thrive on love and patience -- just like all other living beings.

[crikkett]

11. .

:hug:

i hear you.

[girl gone mad]

12. I had a close friend with very abusive fundie Christian parents.

They're lucky to be alive, really, because she came pretty close to enacting revenge on more than one occasion, but was persuaded against it. She was pretty screwed up, but has really turned her life around the longer she has been away from home. I don't think she communicates with them anymore.

[donco6]

13. I had fundie friends back in the day -

And they used this all the time. I remember hearing them spanking their daughter and really wondering if I should do something . . . ? I didn't see them much after that. I always wondered how she turned out - she'd be grown by now.

[JDPriestly]

32. You should report child abuse to your local authorities.

You could save a child's life.

[donco6]

35. Yeah, I know that now.

But I was a kid and he was my teacher. So it wasn't that simple. And in my town, "it's just a spanking" probably would have been accepted as a-ok.

[Control-Z]

17. And the woman I am.

This OP has triggered such vivid flahbacks for me that it's difficult to even respond.

I would be a better person today had I been beaten by a stranger every day of my youth rather than the by the "loving" parent that did it for my own good.

The emotional damage - the shame, isolation, and fear - lasts a lifetime.

[Monk06]

5. The Pearls should be in jail for conspiracy regarding every child abuse case related to their books.

[smoogatz]

14. These are some sick, sick fucks.

Here's the basic flaw in their thinking (if you can call it that) in a nutshell: "As the military drills their soldiers, you must drill your children."

Great plan. The military trains people to kill without hesitation or remorse, and that's the model parents should follow with their three-year-olds. Every one of these kids is going to be completely crazy by the time they hit adolescence.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. You may think of it as child abuse.

I think of it as job security.

As long as there are survivors of brutally abusive childhoods, psychologists will be in demand.

[smoogatz]

18. Bingo.

Kind of the way my mother-in-law the pediatrician feels about Gymboree (aka Germboree).

[BrklynLiberal]

22. and that kind of insanity is DEFINITELY passed down to the children.

Hard to imagine that the next generation treats their children any better.

From the description at their site, it sounds more like a sect than anything else. The kids are all
kept very close..and I would assume, very much under control.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. The rod wasn't meant to be used as punishment

those herding sheep would use it to guide the sheep, not to hit them.

This passage is just used as an excuse by those who think it's fine to do violence to children.

[RayOfHope]

20. This whole thing is disgusting. I noticed he used a girl in his example of training.

They start quite early with their subjugation of women, don't they.

[ladym55]

21. Every time I think American "Christians" can't go lower ...

Wow. Wow. Wow. :wow:

There is NOTHING in what they are doing that REMOTELY follows the teachings of Jesus, the person they claim to be their lord and savior. JESUS was the guy who asked the little children to come and sit with him (and apparently didn't see the need to beat the snot out of them to make them "obedient"). JESUS talked of turning the other cheek and loving your neighbor (and honoring your family). JESUS opposed violence of all kinds.

Amerikun Kristians are all about obscure hate-filled passages of the Old Testament that they twist to meet their own warped prejudices and hatreds. Is it any wonder their children grow up to be pliant, unquestioning zombies.

[Guilded Lilly]

23. "then you have won"

with all due respect Mr.(and Mrs.) Pearl (and I mean that in its literal translation, i.e. NO respect is due) you have NOT won anything. You are a gigantic loser.

You have lost something precious, the trust of your child. I doubt much respect will ever be given with this kind of cold, ice in your veins approach to raising children. Oh excuse me, private, Biblically influenced training of children.

You lose.

But this kind of reasoning would be totally lost on what appears to be the words of a man who is into power control via bullying...not to mention the very perversion-tip-toeing sexually Dominant male syndrome flavor of his calculating brutality.

I understand *their position* quite well. And it is wretched. Violence prone, control freak, borderline abuse is not acceptable behavior toward children. Period. Towards your own children is even more abominable.

And those who practice this *style* of abhorrent chastising behavior are simply foul.

[Shallah Kali]

24. Spanking a 7-month-old?

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=48&tx_ttnews=144&tx_ttnews=28&cHash=f3fce758a9





I am a pastor’s wife and have a question for you. Is it right to spank a 7-month-old for crying when put down for bed? I grew up with just ignoring the child, thus training them that they will not get their way. My husband wants it to stop all together. I know all the verses for training a child, but I am not sure how to approach this situation. I know you will give me a straight answer.

snip


The above question is loaded. Since we do not know your attitudes or the details of your circumstances, it is impossible to give a yes or no answer. But I do caution: A 7-month-old is too young to be spanked as such—too young to be punished. They do not have any understanding of good and evil (Deut 1:39; Is 7:15-16; Romans 9:11) and cannot reason weighty matters. But the 7-month-old is already learning the dark art of self-will, and must be wisely, gently, and firmly constrained to yield to authority.

The very nature of authority is the power to constrain to obedience through enforcing negative consequences. “A child left to himself will bring his mother to shame” (Proverbs 29:15). Leaving the child in the bed to cry herself to sleep is indeed a negative consequence, and may be used as a last resort, but it is a result of a failure to train and is not the most effective training. Obviously, we wouldn’t want to see her crying herself to sleep on a regular basis, any more than we would want to spank her every evening. Difficult measures and unpleasant con-sequences should be thoughtfully employed so as to effect a positive change very quickly—in two or three nights. If negative consequences are not soon productive, they become counterproductive. So before I would resign to allowing her to spend her evenings crying, I would try other measures first.

Arrange circumstances so as to lull the child to sleep in a peaceful and natural manner. Don’t keep her up until she is exhausted. Don’t try to put her to sleep when her heart and respiration are racing from excitement. Be consistent in the details of how she is put to sleep each time. Create a thirty-minute “unwinding” ritual that ends with laying her down to sleep. Once you condition her to expect to yield to your overtures, she will lie down and sleep with only minimal suggestion, and even in more distracting circumstances.

When you have taken the child through her night-time paces and left her to sleep, never, never allow her to come out of the snooze mode and become active again. To do so is to leave her with the belief that time and place of sleep is left to her discretion. Humans are made by God to operate according to stimulation. Things that activate any of the senses are stimulating and pleasurable. Children love pleasure, and they love to be stimulated. They so love excitement that they will fight going into the “shut-off” mode. Wind them down gently so sleep comes naturally.

If the child has been mistrained, or if you have failed to provide a good prelude to sleep, and the child rises up to fight and resist, you should evaluate your whole procedure so as to improve your pre-sleep ritual for tomorrow night. But for the moment, you must constrain the child to obey authority and remain lying down. As a last resort, you may have to prove the power of your word by enforcing it with one or two stinging licks (applied with a small flexible switch) to the child’s leg that says to the child, “There is no reward for getting up; Mama means business; she is not going to give over to my demands; the path to greatest pleasure is to go to sleep; there is no alternative; my parents always get their way; what can I say? Good night.”

Commands are not negotiable; authority must be obeyed. The soul of the child needs that kind of authority in her life to be stable emotionally and to develop a will to accept discipline.

Finally, if you are angry or frustrated, do nothing more than allow the child to cry herself to sleep. You are momentarily unfit as a trainer. Get your head and heart together and do better tomorrow night.

[JDPriestly]

34. Interesting. Not one word about holding the crying child in a prayerful or

meditative, worshipful state. What religion did you say these people claim to be practicing?

Not one word of that advice had spiritual content -- of any religion that I know about.

[Brickbat]

25. I have to say that the idea of hitting a baby while being "not angry" and "in control" is even more

disgusting and reprehensible than hitting a baby in anger or having lost control. I mean, it's not cool to make a continuum of "disgusting" when it comes to hitting children. But to coolly read a book, look at the clock, look at the baby in the crib and think, "It's time for me to whap the baby now, so he loves God, I better get my husband to hold him down" makes someone a monster, IMNSHO.

[daleo]

26. That's creepy to read

The writer sounds like a psychopath.

[Echo In Light]

33. +1

[provis99]

27. wasn't Christ "chastised" in Passion of the Christ?

I hope these so-called Christians aren't following the example set by Roman torturers as a model for how to raise children.

[Hekate]

28. The need for secrecy goes hand in hand with the emphasis on home-schooling...

... where no one can see what you are doing to your children, if you happen to be inclined to these violent methods.

God help those children.

Hekate

[Shallah Kali]

29. groups like these are creating doctors groups that approve of methods that would get them reported

a woman who broke away from her abusive religious upbringing that writes under the name dogemperor wrote of this in her post here:

Dominionism and child abuse, part 3: Why they aren't in jail
http://dogemperor.newsvine.com/_news/2010/02/20/3925456-dominionism-and-child-abuse-part-3-why-they-arent-in-jail


a) Kids subject to "Bible-based" child abuse are, increasingly, being isolated from practically all mandatory reporters who are likely to actually report abuse.

You know the segments in my "dominionism's parallel economy" series on dominionist medical associations http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/26/02727/6516 and especially dominionist alternatives to mainstream mental health groups http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/27/24620/9073 ? You know how increasingly there is a heavy, heavy push for dominionist parents to pull their kids out of the public and even private school systems in favour of dominionist correspondence-schooling promoted as "Christian homeschools"?

Those aspects of the dominionist "parallel economy" take on a very, very frightening aspect in that schools, mental health professionals, and pediatricians are often the three main groups of "mandatory reporters" (outside of the church) that a kid in a dominionist household is ever likely to see in their childhood...and all three are being very systematically shut out, with "parallel economy" alternatives explicitly promoted in dominionist circles as ways to avoid prosecution for child abuse.

We've already seen (to a frightening degree this week) how "Bible boot camps" and other dominionist "parallel economy" alternatives to mental health facilities are extremely abusive in practice http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/12/131327/478 (some responders actually compared the conditions to Abu Ghraib); pediatricians in dominionist circles aren't much better. From the post on dominionist "parallel economy" alternatives to the legit American Academy of Pediatrics:

[JDPriestly]

30. California Welfare & Institutions Code section 300

CALIFORNIA CODES
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE
SECTION 300-304.7




300. Any child who comes within any of the following descriptions
is within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court which may adjudge
that person to be a dependent child of the court:
(a) The child has suffered, or there is a substantial risk that
the child will suffer, serious physical harm inflicted
nonaccidentally upon the child by the child's parent or guardian. For
the purposes of this subdivision, a court may find there is a
substantial risk of serious future injury based on the manner in
which a less serious injury was inflicted, a history of repeated
inflictions of injuries on the child or the child's siblings, or a
combination of these and other actions by the parent or guardian
which indicate the child is at risk of serious physical harm. For
purposes of this subdivision, "serious physical harm" does not
include reasonable and age-appropriate spanking to the buttocks where
there is no evidence of serious physical injury.
(b) The child has suffered, or there is a substantial risk that
the child will suffer, serious physical harm or illness, as a result
of the failure or inability of his or her parent or guardian to
adequately supervise or protect the child, or the willful or
negligent failure of the child's parent or guardian to adequately
supervise or protect the child from the conduct of the custodian with
whom the child has been left, or by the willful or negligent failure
of the parent or guardian to provide the child with adequate food,
clothing, shelter, or medical treatment, or by the inability of the
parent or guardian to provide regular care for the child due to the
parent's or guardian's mental illness, developmental disability, or
substance abuse. No child shall be found to be a person described by
this subdivision solely due to the lack of an emergency shelter for
the family. Whenever it is alleged that a child comes within the
jurisdiction of the court on the basis of the parent's or guardian's
willful failure to provide adequate medical treatment or specific
decision to provide spiritual treatment through prayer, the court
shall give deference to the parent's or guardian's medical treatment,
nontreatment, or spiritual treatment through prayer alone in
accordance with the tenets and practices of a recognized church or
religious denomination, by an accredited practitioner thereof, and
shall not assume jurisdiction unless necessary to protect the child
from suffering serious physical harm or illness. In making its
determination, the court shall consider (1) the nature of the
treatment proposed by the parent or guardian, (2) the risks to the
child posed by the course of treatment or nontreatment proposed by
the parent or guardian, (3) the risk, if any, of the course of
treatment being proposed by the petitioning agency, and (4) the
likely success of the courses of treatment or nontreatment proposed
by the parent or guardian and agency. The child shall continue to be
a dependent child pursuant to this subdivision only so long as is
necessary to protect the child from risk of suffering serious
physical harm or illness.
. . . .

(e) The child is under the age of five years and has suffered
severe physical abuse by a parent, or by any person known by the
parent, if the parent knew or reasonably should have known that the
person was physically abusing the child. For the purposes of this
subdivision, "severe physical abuse" means any of the following: any
single act of abuse which causes physical trauma of sufficient
severity that, if left untreated, would cause permanent physical
disfigurement, permanent physical disability, or death; any single
act of sexual abuse which causes significant bleeding, deep bruising,
or significant external or internal swelling; or more than one act
of physical abuse, each of which causes bleeding, deep bruising,
significant external or internal swelling, bone fracture, or
unconsciousness; or the willful, prolonged failure to provide
adequate food. A child may not be removed from the physical custody
of his or her parent or guardian on the basis of a finding of severe
physical abuse unless the social worker has made an allegation of
severe physical abuse pursuant to Section 332.'
. . . .

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=4695162527+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

Report child abuse to your local authorities.

http://ag.ca.gov/childabuse/forms.php

[Shallah Kali]

36. I wrote the Nancy Grace show asking them to cover this

anyone who advocates hitting infants deserves the Nancy Grace treatment!

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?81

[Shallah Kali]

37. Pearl on 11month old refusing spinach mush: "She was fomenting the sins of Lucifer"

Plowing under weeds
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1995/september/12/plowing-under-weeds/


After about half of a jar, the little girl shoved it away. The mother pushed it back in front of her and said, “Don’t you want some more, are you through?” Again the child shoved it away, this time with a little more force. It was one of those whole-body shoves, not violent, but determined. Her body language said, “I have had all of this I am going to tolerate. Get it out of my sight before I throw it in the floor.” She didn’t voice any protest, and she was not mean spirited. She was just practicing being independent, demonstrating her ability to enforce her rights.

Most mothers would have simply accepted the child’s actions as a statement that she was through eating. However, this little mother was wise beyond her years. She picked up her little enforcer, which was lying on the table, and spatted the child’s hand, while she once again placed the jar of green slime in front of her. Suzzie tried to shove it away, and received another spat. The mother spoke so quietly and so without emotion that no one else at the table even noticed, “Suzzie, are you through eating?” The little girl did not cry, but she got the message that she is not in control—Mother is. I could see that she wanted to push it away, but she looked at the little switch and restrained herself. The mother further enforced her victory by leaving the jar in front of the child.

I loved it. It was beautiful. It was the making of a well disciplined, self- controlled, balanced teenager. In that little girl’s heart, the seeds of rebellion were just germinating. She was fomenting the sins of Lucifer: “I will be..., I will ascend..., I will exhalt... (Isa. 14:13-14).”

snip

I must encourage those of you with small children, train up your children now. Do not wait until they are one-year-old to start training. Rebellion and self-will should be broken in the six-month-old when it first appears. Take this young mother’s example and think of ways you can train your child.

[Jefferson23]

38. Conditioning babies/toddlers through torture, plain and simple.

The author makes clear, this is about control on a level that is inhumane, and in direct conflict to healthy human development.

I stand opposed to any form of corporal punishment, but what he is specific to advocate moves far beyond any traditional approach to the term.

I do not understand why he is permitted to teach parents to perform sadistic rituals that produce serious physical and emotional harm to our most innocent population.

I suppose my understanding of free speech must be compromised, as I would like to see this bastard in jail.

[Taverner]

39. Someone needs to whip Pearl around with a lead rod

Show him how it feels

[Prof Lester]

40. Funny how sadists always look for fancy sounding excuses

Sickos like beating children. It makes 'em feel good. But they found out if they go around saying so folks get mad so they dress it up with hooey. The bible is perfect for that. It's full of meaningless hooey that can be used for any purpose you like. Hate black people? It's in there. Hate gay folks? Yeah, in there too. Hate unions? In there. Want to beat up helpless little kids? In there. Etc., etc. etc. Course it's all the OLD Testament where the good grade hooey is. Jesus said he was boiling the law down to do unto others, ie., what we call the Golden Rule. Maybe these sickos are saying they want to get beat up with a rod, ie., a stick. Suppose if we got ahold of 'em and clobbered 'em with a stick they'd like it? Or would they more likely go screamin' for the cops? I vote B. :evilgrin: