Long-time cannabis use linked to psychosis: study

[UpInArms]

Source: AFP

WASHINGTON — The longer people use cannabis or marijuana, the more likely they are to experience hallucinations or delusions or to suffer psychosis, according to a study released Saturday.

The study found that people who first used cannabis when they were aged 15 or younger were twice as likely to develop a "non-affective psychosis" -- which can include schizophrenia -- than those who had never used the drug.

The research led by John McGrath from the University of Queensland in Australia was based on a survey of 3,801 people with an average age of 20.1 years, the US-based Archives of General Psychiatry reported.

"Among all the participants, a longer duration since the first time they used cannabis was associated with multiple psychosis-related outcomes," the study said.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5idu_xz8MDQA2O-nVNq4zzkCEWvSg

[wtmusic]

1. .

:popcorn:

[Donnachaidh]

15. can I sit with you? I bring more popcorn

This oughta be better than celebrity deathmatch :rofl:

[Suji to Seoul]

83. Can I bring the weed? I feel like going crazy! lol

[ixion]

2. BS

This was posted earlier. Why repost garbage?

[Renew Deal]

9. Why is it hard to believe that smoking marijuana would have side effects?

Do you also deny that cigarettes have side effects?

[Fumesucker]

13. Of course there are side effects..

But a lot of us wonder which is cause and which is effect..

In other words, does cannabis cause mental problems or are people with mental problems attracted to cannabis in order to self medicate?

That is clearly the case with cigarettes, a remarkably high percentage of schizophrenics and psychotics use tobacco products, far, far higher than the general population.

[liberal_at_heart]

45. I know too many people that have smoked it for decades to believe this study

[cherokeeprogressive]

68. Same here. Put 10 pot smokers who've never met in the same room and before too long you'll hear

"Oh my God I've DONE that!" along with belly laughs.

Psychotic? I think not.

[Wizard777]

135. I've been smoking it for 69 years. No problems yet.

[UpInArms]

10. did a search in LBN - no dupe found - link?

:hi:

[Fumesucker]

11. Link..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7809951#7810549

[notadmblnd]

3. Bullshit!

[Warpy]

4. Not this shit again!

Uh, guys, it's called SELF MEDICATION and kids experiencing the earliest signs of psychosis are going to use something to keep a lid on it.

Grass is less harmful than booze, anyway.

Grass will have to be legalized for a meaningful study of cannabis use and psychosis to be done.

[hootinholler]

77. Here ya go...

-Hoot

[boppers]

5. Cause and effect...

This link has been well known for a while, what *hasn't* been understood is cause and effect. Are people with abnormal mental conditions more likely to start self-medicating at earlier ages?

FTA:
"People who were vulnerable to psychosis, in other words had isolated psychotic symptoms, "were more likely to commence cannabis use, which could then subsequently contribute to an increased risk of conversion to a non-affective psychotic disorder," the research said."

[Truth2Tell]

30. Conflating correlation with causation.

One of the most common logical fallacies, and rampant in the so-called "social sciences."

Amateur hour.

[Swamp Rat]

95. Apparently medical doctors are capable of producing exceptionally flawed research too.

Professor John McGrath:
http://www.qbi.uq.edu.au/index.html?page=46387

He should be raked over the coals by colleagues in scientific journals for making such a dumb mistake.

[elocs]

6. As I said in the other thread, DU cannot stand to have one of its gods questioned in any way.

It can never, ever be admitted that there is anything negative about pot use otherwise that negates any of the good it does. Although people are usually defensive about their drug of choice, marijuana is untouchable here. You could say bad things about nearly any Democrat, and it has been done here, but never pot.

[clixtox]

7. I imagine you have considered why this reaction occurs?

It is because every one of these supposed "scientific" studies is not persuasive, for any number of reasons.

Mostly they are always anecdotal rather than actually science.

If any number of people were going crazy after years of cannabis use it wouldn't be a study like we see constantly proffered by those with an agenda that would indicate a problem(s).

[harkadog]

27. The reaction occurs because people smoke cannabis and

will defend their drug of choice

[liberal_at_heart]

74. I don't smoke it but I will defend it because I have seen my loved ones in pain

and I have seen cannibas help alleviate that pain, and I've never seen it hurt any of the people I know that smoke it. I have seen my loved ones addicted to pain medication prescribed by the doctor and the pain was so severe and they had to be on such high doses they came close to overdosing on pain medication. My loved ones have never come close to overdosing on cannibas. Do I fight ferociously for my loved ones' right to smoke? You better believe I do.

[RainDog]

76. people always assume if you care about issues of individual liberty and rights...

...you do only for yourself. that's an example of "conservative" thinking. also the fear of change is an example. also the desire to demonize one thing to justify another.

I'm never going to have an abortion but I will always fight for that right for women.

I never smoked pot until I was in college, quit soon after, eons later someone suggested it for a migraine and... I wish it were legal for that reason. I LOVE to be able to have a migraine and NOT THROW UP, not have sore muscles the next day or two simply from them tightening up because of the pain, not feel like my eyes hurt because there is light in the room, not be able to go to sleep because the pain is so bad until you finally go to sleep because you're exhausted by the pain.

what I found out was the cannabis eliminated that whole sequence of pain, stopped the nausea immediately, and made it possible for me to get back to work sooner than if I had to endure the migraine.

there are so many reports about the value of cannabis for MS, migraines, cancer side effects...

anyone who knows anything about the topic knows the lies are thicker than miracle whip on white bread... and about as compelling.

and life goes on.

[Juneboarder]

118. Cannabis users

will die from laughter WAYYYYY before they'll die from an overdose! :)

[RainDog]

145. there has never been a recorded case of a death from cannabis use in 5000 years

people have died from aspirin overdoses.

obviously aspirin should be illegal.

[Juneboarder]

149. Whatever!!

Cars kill way more than asprin... we should make cars illegal!!

LOL!!! :)

:hi:

[Mopar151]

12. And your point would be?

Almost everything the MSM, the government, and the medical establishment has told us about cannibas sativa, cannibas indica, and cannibas ruderalis since 1920 has been proved to be a giant pantload of shit.
Many psychoactive substances commonly in use - caffeine, sugar, alcahol, choclate, tobacco - have side effects, paychological, metabolic, or carcinogenic - proven far worse than pot. And last I knew, troubled kids under 15 who took up cigarettes and booze wern't doi'n all that shithot.

[harkadog]

28. You just proved the poster's point.

It is a god on DU and the god will not be questioned.

[Mopar151]

52. Deites of all sorts are questioned here regularly.

There are emotions and personality disorders whose effects, and dangers, far surpass those of many drugs. IMHO (and of many others here) the interaction of self-righteousness and religious fervor are as addictive and dangerous as crack cocaine.
And, there are personality types for whom some psychoactive drugs are strongly contra-indicated. Authouritarians and paranoiacs should probably avoid cannibas, and definitely LSD. Narcissists should definitely avoid cocaine!

[dave29]

81. Pot is not a god. I smoke it, and I know there are ill effects

congestion, bad breath, and I know it is not good to burn my throat the way I have. There are much smarter ways to use than I have though, and I realize that.

But, the reason so many here defend it fiercely is because IT WORKS unlike so many other things for a whole host of medical issues. Does long term use lead to psychosis, schizophrenia, etc. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe more likely among those who remain stoned all day long for 30 years. I could say the same about just any medication. Most have more consequences and sooner.

And, for the record, my medical (and resulting mental) issues started well before my pot smoking.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

131. This kind of "argument" has a clear-cut, very simple structure.

- I don't favor X.
- You, and the majority of this forum, favor X.
- Therefore, you worship X and X is a god that must not be questioned. I am the reasonable person and you're the fanatic. Why? Because.

It gets old real fast. It's nothing more than flamebait. It's Pee Wee Herman level debating.

[LeftyMom]

19. I've never smoked (or otherwise willingly ingested) pot in my life, and I agree this study is crap.

Actually, I'm allergic or at least sensitive to the stuff- the smoke triggers my asthma and hemp oil causes skin reactions, so I have to give the stuff a pretty wide berth. So I'm not some self-justifying stoner by any stretch of the imagination. But this study is still crap, the reasons why are explained well upthread but basically it shows correlation but not causation, which is a big concern with mental illness because we know mentally ill people self-medicate. For example, people with bipolar disorder often self-medicate with alcohol and street drugs in an attempt to level out their moods prior to diagnosis and successful treatment, but nobody argues that the street drugs cause the bipolar- rather the abuse appears to be a common symptom of the existing disease.

Really, the only way to get a meaningful study that would demonstrate the sort of causation suggested by the OP would be to take two similar groups of teenagers and assign one to smoke pot and one to abstain, and then track their MI rates over the long term to see if the smokers had a higher rate of schizophrenia.

[liberal_at_heart]

65. I know too many people who have smoked it for decades without any bad side affects

Just like it is harder to hate someone who is republican or Christian if you actually know them, it is harder to hate somone who smokes marijuana if you know them personally also. It all comes down to personal relationships. When we get to know each other as people we judge them less and actually start treating them like people.

[Greyhound]

72. That's not it at all, it is the use of incomplete research and rare exceptions to portray MM

in an artificially negative light.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. Just as likely:

People who are extremely susceptible to suffering from depression, psychosis, or other serious mental illness, try to find solace, comfort, and refuge from a harmless natural plant that eases their constant suffering.

[RagAss]

14. Who payed for this half assed bullshit study?

[DefenseLawyer]

16. I won't go schizo, will I?

It's a distinct possibility.

[pipi_k]

17. Long term use of alcohol can do the same thing

My younger brother, who is not even 40, has spent nearly 3 weeks in the hospital...second time in three months...because his liver is failing and the doctor said he's way too sick right now to even think about going into a rehab facility.

And because his liver is failing, it's affecting his mind and the rest of his body.

His father died the same way, at the age of 44.


Scary thing is, after doing some reading on liver failure, I found out that even if a person drinks daily for 8 or 9 years but doesn't get intoxicated, he can still contract cirrhosis.


So. Booze...deadly. Destroyer of lives. But it's OK and legal. Socially acceptable.


Fucking booze...I HATE it.

[Writer]

18. Can I ask a straight forward question as someone who's never used marijuana?

If I were to take a single sip of relatively strong alcohol, I guess brandy or something, how would that differ from taking a single puff of a joint with relatively stronger THC levels? What would the effect of the sip of alcohol be in comparison to the puff of marijuana?

Edit to add: I am very, very sorry to read about your younger brother, btw. That's awful, and he's too young.

[Fumesucker]

20. It's hard to say..

As has been pointed out on these threads before, drug reactions are idiosyncratic.. Indeed to some extent drug reactions are learned, I understand that Japanese rarely get violent from alcohol and yet many westerners react in that fashion, I doubt the difference is biochemical.

Alcohol and pot are very different drugs and a lot of people who really like one often don't like the other much. Not to say that there aren't plenty of people who like both.

A single sip of even strong alcohol is unlikely to effect most people very strongly but a single hit of very strong cannabis can give you a pretty good buzz.

Cannabis tends to effect the sense of time and often enhances musical or other aesthetic experiences, even (or maybe especially) sex.

If you start really grooving on Grateful Dead music all of a sudden you might have a problem. :)

[Writer]

22. Based on that, I think I'd prefer to stick with liquor.

I like that I can regulate the buzz better, I guess.

Pot legalization? I don't care what others do.

[Fumesucker]

Very few people stick to a single sip of liquor..

And of course a hit off a joint or a pipe can be titrated, a tiny puff or a giant lungful.

Which is why I never liked eating pot, it's too easy to get way too wasted, the same problem you have with legal cannabinol pills.

[pipi_k]

48. I can do the limited amount of liquor...my addiction is...

sugar.

Don't even show me a birthday cake with thick frosting. OMG. I'm drooling all over the place. One taste....yeah, right. :eyes:

I'll actually fight people for birthday cake.

:+

[liberal_at_heart]

49. Sugar is my drug of choice too

[pipi_k]

50. Awful, isn't it?

I know a lot of people don't really believe how serious a sugar addiction can be, or the damage it can cause....

[liberal_at_heart]

54. You know sometimes I think we are just too hard on ourselves

I have been on a life long journey of self acceptance and with every year I get a little closer. Yes, I am addicted to sugar and if my doctor told me I was borderline diabetic I probably would try very hard to change, but my blood sugar levels are normal and frankly I'm tired of beating myself up over things I think are wrong with me, so I say bring on the cookies.

[Withywindle]

82. An while we're talking about effects on people--

I love booze and pot.

But I really have no sweet tooth to speak of. Of course I enjoy half a candy bar once every few months....but I can't say I crave it. At all. I would totally pass over your theoretical birthday cake for a beer. In a heartbeat.

(My real cravings are for things on the salty/savory spectrum. I'd punch people over both the cake and the beer to get to the BACON.)

[pipi_k]

47. That's why when I do have a drink, it's only one very small one...

because I can better regulate whatever "buzz" I'm going to get. The object there being that I absolutely hate to lose control and be all drunk and stuff.

I just like feeling the warmth and relaxation in my muscles for a little bit every now and then. Doesn't take much, either. Such a cheap date I am. :7

[bananas]

80. Astronomer Carl Sagan was a pothead

He wrote an essay under the pseudonym "Mr. X" about his own experience,
you should read it: http://www.marijuana-uses.com/essays/002.html

[Bluenorthwest]

137. Do you often have a single sip of liquor, really? Really?

And if not, why is that your selected comparison? If I had a single brandy, I'd be too fucked up to drive all night, the next day I'd be dragging, drained and cranky. One sip? No. One shot, hell yes. You can 'regulate your buzz' only because you are used to drinking alcohol in a way I never will be, because you drink far, far more than I ever have or ever will. It is obvious that this is the case. If that is your choice, drink up. But you can not regulate the fact that Skid Row is made of drinkers, and no such place exists for those who use marijuana. If you actually are a writer, I'd check into the history of drinking in your field, and tread with care. Many a writer regulated themselves to an early grave. Shall we make a list of those killed by liquor? Let's! But first the list of those killed by pot:

[pipi_k]

46. That's the problem I had smoking pot...

It caused severe panic reactions all by itself, and if I didn't want that to happen I had to have a drink with it. Which made the whole experience really bizarre...


That was when I was way younger than now, BTW. Haven't even been near pot since 1987, and I do have some special sherry and coconut rum around here someplace, but haven't had any in over a year, and even then it's less than a shotglass full.

[pipi_k]

42. I honestly don't know the answer to that for someone else...

For myself, either one would cause me to be under the influence rather quickly, because I'm very sensitive to drugs and alcohol and things like that.

Even a child's dose of daytime cold medicine, for example, can make my ears ring and cause terrible anxiety, and only a little caffeine can do the same.

It all depends on the person, I guess.


PS...

Thank you for the kind words about my brother. The doctor said that if he stops drinking now he has at least a 50% chance of living another five years. After the last trip to the hospital, he swore he would stop but he didn't.

[dysfunctional press]

73. the first time i smoked pot, i didn't really feel all that affected by it...

the SECOND time i used it, a couple days later- i got incredibly buzzed. i was sold. 1 was 17, and that was 30 years ago.

i honestly don't remember the effects of my first alcoholic drink, or even the first time i got drunk...but it pre-dated my first pot use by about a year-and-a-half or so...and wasn't nearly as pleasant.

[EOTE]

97. Self-titrating is pretty easy with pot.

Comparing a sip of high proof alcohol with a puff of very high grade pot, I can tell you this. For me anyway, a single sip of booze has never done anything for me. I need about 3 to 4 standardized drinks (1.5 oz liquor, 4 oz wine, 12 oz beer) before I can really feel anything much. The strongest bud I've smoked would get me slightly intoxicated with a single puff. But it's very easy to regulate with marijuana because it's rather simple to differentiate the schwag that takes a good sized spliff to get you high and the KB that can get you stoned with one or two puffs. Because pot tends to hit you fairly quickly, it's easy to know when you've had enough. Another great thing about pot is that it's really hard to "over do" it. I've never said to myself "Oh man, I smoked too much bud", where I've said to myself (in the past) "Oh god, I really drank too much", a number of times. If you smoke too much pot, you might end up eating a few more cheetos and getting to bed a bit earlier than normal, if you drink too much booze, you could throw up, black out, do any number of stupid things or even die.

[Wizard777]

139. Your body naturally produces both Cannabinoids and alcohol.

But your body doesn't start to naturally produce alcohol until after you're dead. You can take that for what it's worth. In the long run I think Pot is much better for you than alcohol. Alcohol damages the dendrites in your brain. Marijuana does not. I drink every once in a blue moon. I like to have the occasional drink or drunk to clear out the old lungs. But I've smoked pot for 69 years now. I'm 78 and I started smoking pot at about 9 years old. That was about 1940. You could walk right past a cop smoking a joint, even at 9, and they wouldn't blink. One of the people I smoked with was an 80 year old man who had also smoked it all his life. What I've found is the stress placed upon people for smoking pot does far more damage to their brain and health than marijuana does. I also think people should wait until they are at a minimum of 18 to start smoking pot. In a life choice between drinking alcohol or smoking pot. I would advise them to smoke pot.

[OnyxCollie]

66. I hope your brother can sober up.

My friend of 30 years died of liver failure less than a month after his 40th birthday. He couldn't stop drinking.

[Juche]

21. I like how we rag on the right wing for climate change denial

But you see the same anti-science attitudes about this stuff when we aren't being told what fits our philosophy.

There have been several studies on this subject. One even found a 5x higher rate among people with a specific gene. Another gene variant increased the risk by 1000% (10x higher)

http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/005066.html

http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001559.html

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html



It was reported today by New Zealand researchers that a double dose of a faulty gene could be the connection between cannabis use and the development of schizophrenia, according to the New Scientist report.

In the original New Zealand study used by researchers, people who had smoked cannabis on three occasions by the age of 15 had a 10 per cent chance of developing the condition by the age of 26.

Dr Mary Cannon's research team recently re-analysed the data from from this study, adding another variable - genetic predisposition to schizophrenia.

The gene they investigated, called COMT (catechol-O-methyl transferase), encodes an enzyme that breaks down a signalling chemical dopamine in the brain.

COMT comes in two forms, one of which is marginally more common in people with schizophrenia and is thought to be a risk factor for the disease.

The results were crystal clear.

The team found that in New Zealanders with two copies of the "normal" version of COMT, smoking cannabis had little effect on their mental health. In people with one normal and one "bad" form of the gene, smoking cannabis slightly increased their risk of psychosis.

But for people with two copies of the bad gene, cannabis spelled trouble: smoking the drug as a teenager increased their likelihood of developing psychosis by a factor of 10.





So if you are at risk of psychosis, don't smoke pot. Also, if you are prone to violence, don't drink. And if you are prone to falling, don't go mountain climbing. And if you are prone to passing out, don't drive. However don't outlaw any of those things (pot, alcohol, mountain climbing, driving, etc).

However some people have genetics that make their dopamine system's prone to problems. And taking drugs like pot (or meth or cocaine for that matter) can greatly increase their risk of psychosis.

[depakid]

24. To some of us, it's more a matter of what the data shows- and doesn't show

and what reasonable conclusions one can draw from these studies without hard clinical evidence to refute the epidemiological inference:

Namely: since there was a rapid increase of teen pot smoking in certain cultures and areas in the decade spanning the 60's - 70%, one would have expected that if a modest causal factor existed, a corresponding spike in psychotic illnesses would have followed, and the effect could have been plotted and identified.

All I've seen from any of the studies is a confirmation of comorbidity (which we've known all too well since at least the time of mad Lord Byron).

[Juche]

25. There are studies on individuals with specific genes showing 5-10x higher risk of psychosis

That is a serious issue. And it needs to be addressed. If a person has genes that predispose him/her to psychosis, they shouldn't use pot. If they do not, it doesn't seem to matter.

The study I posted showed how people who have a certain version of the COMT see almost no risk of psychosis from pot. People who have one allele see a slightly higher risk. People with both alleles see a 10x higher risk.

It isn't a mistake. I think you guys just want to believe its a mistake because you worry it is going to be used as an excuse to criticize pot (the same way the gov. tried to use terrorism as an excuse to crack down on pot in 2001-2002). However the psychosis/pot link is credible and needs to be taken into account when people use.

However I think if you are over the age of 18-21, and you do not have the genes that can screw up your dopamine system, your risk of psychosis from taking pot is extremely low. However if you are 14 and have certain alleles, your risk skyrockets.

[depakid]

35. The study cited is interesting

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15866551?dopt=Abstract

I'd be interested in reading the entire study and having a look at the methods used.

Any idea what the prevalence of the"bad" combination is in the general population?

[Juche]

36. I think 25% have both alleles with the mutation

There was talk on schizophrenia.com about creating a gene test to test for genes like this, so people at higher risk of psychosis could start doing neuroprotective things (lower their stress, take omega 3s, multivitamins, selenium, etc) so they do not develop full blown psychosis.

However I know age is another factor. I think if you are over 21 or so, and even if you have both alleles, smoking pot may not really make a difference by that point in your life. The impression I got was it was both having the alleles and being young.


http://depts.washington.edu/wwpweb/COMT.html


Nearly half the US population carries a polymorphism of the gene for catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) that results in substitution of methionine for valine at position 108 of the soluble form of the protein (s-COMT) and position 158 of the membrane-bound form (mb-COMT).

A common polymorphism in the COMT gene results in substitution of methionine for valine at amino acid 108 of the soluble protein and position 158 of the membrane-bound enzyme. Approximately 25% of the US population is homozygous for the 108/158Met allele. The Met variant has markedly lower thermostability at physiological temperatures, and individuals who are homozygous for this allele have a 3- to 4-fold lower level of enzyme activity in their erythrocytes. Purified 108Met human s-COMT was found to lose about 80% of its activity in 30 min at 37o, while the activity of the 108Val enzyme was essentially unchanged. In patients with velocardiofacial syndrome, having the 108/158Met allele on the non-deleted chromosome could compound the effects of loss of the gene from the other copy of chromosome 22. In line with this reasoning, hemizygosity for the 108/158Met variant is strongly associated with some of the most severe neuropsychiatric manifestations of VCFS. In the general population, homozygosity for 108/158Met is associated with increased risk for obsessive-compulsive disorder in males, "ultra-rapid cycling" bipolar disorder, late-onset alcoholism and depressive disorder, and with aggressive, homicidal and suicidal behavior in schizophrenics. Although the 108/158Met variant of COMT is clearly not the cause of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder it evidently can intensify these disorders. In a mouse model, disruption of the COMT gene leads to increased aggression and behavioral changes indicative of increased anxiety. The less stable form of COMT also has been associated with increased risk for breast cancer in humans, although other investigators have found no such association

[safeinOhio]

41. That seems to be the consensus

of all the voices in my head.

:crazy:

[Mopar151]

57. I don't beleive in the voices

But they have some great ideas!

[depakid]

51. Assuming that's the case, it certainly begs a question

as to why the effect hasn't been observed in the epidemiological data over time. Schizophrenia is a profound illness- unlike something like, say, "soft" bipolar where the numbers could be inflated through more accurate reporting and expanded diagnosis.

So we should see some very sharp indications between populations where early use is highly prevalent- and where it's not.

To my knowledge, we haven't seen such effects among separate populations or over time- though logically, that would be the first thing one would look for in further study. Indeed, that's often how research narrows down to the specific areas of study like this.

[freeplessinseattle]

75. so the premise of the study is inaccurate

long-term pot use isn't the issue-it's pot use under a certain age for at least a few years.

I've been smoking the green for nearly 20 years but didn't start until I was 19, so hopefully should be ok. In all seriousness, I did hear voices when I was a child around age 10 but that went away eventually. They weren't imaginary friend type voices either, they really bothered me and interfered with my concentration. My dad said the same thing happened to him when he was that age. Not sure what that was about, but I know my dad smoked pot when he was a young teen and while he is kind delusional in his own way (Limbaugh fan, etc). he turned out unscathed.

Just anecdotal, maybe we dodged a bullet, but just the plain fact that title of the study is misleading makes me skeptical (but maybe that's my delusional side talking).

[Fumesucker]

26. After poking around your links for a couple of minutes I found this...

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

Experts estimate that between 8% and 13% of all schizophrenia cases are linked to marijuna / cannabis use during teen years. It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use (by a factor of four).

Isn't it interesting how the research showing alcohol may be four times as likely as cannabis to predict psychosis never, ever makes into DU, let alone the M$M?

[grahamhgreen]

55. " It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor!!!!!"

[Hippo_Tron]

33. This was a survey, nothing in it is backed by hard science

[Juche]

34. The studies I posted named the genes that increase the risk

Basically if you have genes that make your dopamine system faulty/vulnerable, and/or you are under 21, then you shouldn't smoke pot.

However I get the impression that if you do not have those gene variants and you are over 21 (and your brain is matured and not as vulnerable) then it really doesn't make a difference for the development of psychosis.

[jbnow]

78. Studies aside, as a counselor I absolutely agree that pot is a bad mix

for those with an underlying psychosis or a tendency towards paranoia.

Pot doesn't cause schizophrenia or psychosis but it can bring it out. I'd also say that it is so unpleasant when it does happen many don't continue using it. They blame the pot... and luckily pot isn't addictive. They might try it to self medicate but the purpose of self medicating isn't to feel worse! There are exceptions to this but that's the short story.

I've known some non-psychotic people who had bad reactions too. I figured it might have been laced or something when they told me about it until it came to my mom. She was getting chemo and got so sick that she'd just quit eating and was miserable. The drugs they gave her to help were pills thaqt she would promptly throw up. No help. I'd heard about pot being helpful so found and bought some and took it up to her. I never did learn to roll a joint but college had taught me something and I made a pipe from an apple. She smoked a little a few times a day while I was there and I couldn't believe the difference it made for her. She did quit feeling sick and she could eat and drink and was up and around again. She got a little giggly from it but it didn't interfere with anything. She got back to her loves of playing piano and voracious reading. Life felt good to her.

But when I left a sister and her husband and my mom's husband all took part or sat with her and she had a really bad experience. They didn't do anything to cause it, I'd guess it was a matter of trust. She got so paranoid and fearful, even when she left them and went back to her room. It was horrible. "Terrifying" she called it.
She didn't want to ever smoke again but decided to try it again on my next visit and I couldn't say no to her. Despite her fear of it she had the same pleasant experience...
Unfortunately I lived a couple hours away...
Anyway it was the same mom, same mind, same pot...yet she had the same panic experience as others described that I thought was laced pot.
so I would guess some of it is also situational.

I'm generally a defender of pot use in society. When I worked with delinquents I'd be relieved if their drug of choice was pot rather than alcohol (though I'm very much against the regular use of any mind altering drug for the still developing brain) Pot can be somewhat demotivational but it is not near the threat alcohol is for teens. You don't have to be an alcoholic to get in serious trouble drinking.
Not that I'd encourage them getting high! One of the best ways to discourage use was to casually bring up gynecomastia. Male breast development. Something like asking the guy if he'd noted any changes in his breasts yet...they'd always ask why and I'd say something like"No big deal, after a while daily or frequent users might develop gynecomastia so I like to ask as a clue if you've been a heavy smoker very long. They'd nervously ask what that was and I'd tell them it isn't dangerous or anything, it's just male breast development.
I'd keep switching subject and they'd bring it back. We'd talk about how it related to pot, stuff like that. I'd suggest if they had more questions they could read the studies and I'd jot down the study/authors/journal name for them and suggest a trip to the library.
I hadn't thought of that for years. Look it was a lot more effective than lectures or normal warnings and there really were studies tying it to regular pot use, especially in teens.

As far as long term effects...
When my son was a teen I found a pipe in his room. One consequence was making him write a paper on the long term effects of pot use and he had to use footnotes and he knew I would check them.
One I did check was from Merk manual about the long term use

Later there is blunted emotion with a counterfeit impression of calm and well being and an illusion of recently developed insight and emotional maturity

Ok there were definitely negative things but when we talked about it later at some point I couldn't resist saying something like "What do you think would happen if everyone ran around acting all calm and mature and insightful?" and bursting into laughter.
We did discuss it more seriously too but imagine how different "Reefer Madness" type scare movies would have been had they shown all these people having psuedo-intellectual discussions and going around all mellow instead of the psychosis and tragedies, manslaughter, suicide, rapes and so on.
"Reefer Counterfeit Cool" just wouldn't give same impression.

From all of my work and research...and just life experience if I was the boss and had to make either booze or pot illegal... pot would be the legal drug.
I am not the boss.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

132. But you gotta admit the anti-science started at the other side of this issue.

Re: "Reefer Madness" and other idiocies.

[Juche]

142. Yeah, I agree

And if you are over 20 and/or do not have certain genes that make your dopamine system vulnerable, then things like pot probably won't make a difference for psychosis.

However if you do, anything that can screw up your dopamine system should be avoided, including prescription meds like wellbutrin.

So IMO pot is no more dangerous than wellbutrin. Both, when given to people with vulnerable DA systems, might make them more likely to develop full blown psychosis. But neither should be banned. However people at risk of diseases like schizophrenia should be aware of the risk of these things.

[Bullet1987]

23. I was waiting for there to be a new reason to keep it illegal

Whatever happened to 'Weed gives you lung cancer?' That study popped up 2 years or so ago before disappearing.

[Hippo_Tron]

29. CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION

This claim is about as "scientific" as Andre Bauer's claim that free lunches cause lower test scores.

[grahamhgreen]

56. Bingo!

[Soylent Brice]

31. big deal. i can claim the same thing about being married.

[t0dd]

32. ..

:rofl:

[tekisui]

37. This is a weak stud[y. If you read the actual report, the

connection is drawn on some 30 individuals. It is a tenuous connection, at best.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

38. shhhhhh

too many people here enjoy feeling self-righteous about their pharmaceuticals....

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

39. so cannabis was the ONLY drug these kids took, right?

Because if they took anti-depressants, smoked cigarettes, drank booze, snorted coke, rolled E or even drank cough syrup on a regular basis this "study" is total garbage.

Some of you are so fucking gullible it's astonishing.

[shireen]

43. Yes. And there's also creative statistics.

if you chose a small pool of subjects using a biased selection criteria, you could make a case for pot being linked to a higher incidence of head lice in left-handed teens. :evilgrin:

[opihimoimoi]

40. What about the percentage that gains from long term use...the artists, composers, authors, designers

architects, engineers, etc etc

Look for the Good too....

[VPStoltz]

44. Yeah? So is my job!

[grahamhgreen]

53. What other drugs had the subjects also used? Cocoa, coffee, aspirin, alchohol, Prozac, SSRI's, Benzo

????????????????????

[liberal_at_heart]

58. Could you imagine what this country would be like if coffee were illegal?

There would be riots in the streets. See I think the reason that marijuana is still illegal is because it makes you mellow. When the government took alcohol away there was blood in the streets. They take marijuana away and you get a non violent resistance that simply refuses to quit using it whether it's legal or not. It's taken longer but this simple refusal to stop using it whether it is legal or not is working. Viva la resitance!

[CBR]

59. So what...

:shrug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

60. OMG!

;rofl:

[Lorien]

61. Hardly news. A colleague of my father's came to similar conclusions 30 years ago

which is the only reason my dad ever cut back drastically on his cannabis use. However, dad still is a strong supporter of medical marijuana, citing that despite the effects of excessive or long term use, reefer is STILL safer than most prescription pain killers.

Everything in moderation.

[BlueIris]

62. What a shock. In other news, water is wet. nt

[rufus dog]

63. you are full of shit!

Now can someone get the helicopters to quit circling my house.

[cherokeeprogressive]

64. In my 32 years of near constant cannibis use, I can assure you that at no time

have I ever been (wait, did you hear that?) psychotic. I've never missed a (whoa! there it was again!) day of work because of my smoking, and I know dozens of people who've been too (these voices are going to drive me crazzzzy!) hungover from alcohol to get to their jobs the day after. If anything, I've been more laid back (gun? what gun?) than I was before I ever discovered (mayor? why the mayor?) the stuff.

On the medicinal issue, I suffer from arthritis (shoot the mayor? whatever for?) after having both ACL ligaments reconstructed (stop it stop it I won't I won't!) and a few tokes make a 24/7 pain go away simply because I (no no no no!) forget it's there for a while. I've known this for a very long (you leave my fucking wife out of this!) time. I don't understand why people who've never (I don't even HAVE an axe!) tried it have such a hard time with it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go wash this blood off of me, and it's OFF TO THE MAYOR'S HOUSE! My great-great grandfather tells me she's been a verrrrry bad girl, just like my wife. This needs to be taken care of. Don't worry, my wife didn't suffer...

Psychosis my ass.

[liberal_at_heart]

67. Viva La Resistance!

They can talk their trash all they want. There will always be those who know better that refuse to stop using it whether it is legal or not because they know from personal experience that it works.

[EFerrari]

69. Doug used to say, nobody ever smoked a joint and climbed up a tower with a rifle.

:)

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. Isn't that the truth! I'd add that almost NONE of the crime associated with MJ is due to

those who smoke it. It's because those who SELL it are defending their territory. Legalize it, and their reason for poppin' caps in each others' ass would largely disappear.

[old mark]

84. The "crime" associated with smoking pot is that it is illegal.

Legalise it.

No crime.

I believe there could be some effects from heavy smoking long term, but there are much worse effects from long term heavy alcohol use.
The onset and or severity of any effects has a lot to do with the individual involved.

I have experience both as a consumer and a person who worked in D/A treatment programs.


mark

[Wizard777]

141. 69 years here! Refer Madness is a psychotic delusion suffered by people that have never smoked pot.

[Ex Lurker]

71. it's probably not a great idea to use any mind altering substance over a long period of time

that's not the issue. The issue is what is it costing us to keep this stuff illegal? Any non-psychotic person would conclude that the societal cost of prohibition is too high.

[canetoad]

79. Smoking weed hasn't affected me

[howard112211]

85. Again the armchair scientists on this board who never wasted the time to get an actual degree

in something scientific are dismissing this as junk based on personal distaste for the outcome.

[Fumesucker]

86. But alcohol abuse is four times as likely to predict schizophrenia than cannabis abuse..

And yet we never, ever hear about that on DU, let alone in the mainstream media..

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

Experts estimate that between 8% and 13% of all schizophrenia cases are linked to marijuna / cannabis use during teen years. It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use (by a factor of four).

The upshot of that is that 32% to 52% of schizophrenia cases are linked to alcohol abuse..

[Mopar151]

87. And who the hell are you?

I've worked for several heavily degreed scientists, eminent in their fields. Most require one or more strong "nannies" in their lives - lab assistant, secretary, wife, business partner - to keep them alive and to keep most limbs attached. And you've never seen a group of people worse for concluding reality does'nt apply to them.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[howard112211]

91. I know as much as I need to. And thinking that facts are facts is not authoritarian.

Pot should be legalized for adults. But the risk of schizophrenia being triggered or induced in some people is real. The "it has never done anything bad to me" argument is about as sensible as the "we had a damn cold winter this year" argument against climate change.

[Mopar151]

93. So the response to several posters who dispute the conclusions

Of one reader of a small sample study, is to insult them, and never reply directly to the issues that they raise. That does'nt sound very scientific to me. There are those with degrees who use this tactic - but they are hardly acting scientifically when they do so.

[howard112211]

102. When this thread was posted, the first ten responses

were things like "bullshit", "not this shit again", "pot has never done anything to me so this study is wrong" and some along the line of "paid hack drug warriors" and "mixing correlation with causation". How is one supposed to argue with people that have so obviously already made up their mind about this study?

The "mixing correlation with causation" thing is my favorite. I am amused that these people really think that a study would get funded if it mistaked correlation with causation in such a blatantly obvious way. Many scientists happen to know the difference between the two quite well.

As for the schizophrenia-weed link, I am tired of trying to convince people of it. I happen to know someone who suffers from this. And it is not, as people have stated here, a coincidence that stems from the fact that this person is trying to self medicate. It is more like an on-off switch. This person will be perfectly fine and without any symptoms for months or years. But if you give this person only a few hits of weed this person will exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia and take about a week to recover.

[Mopar151]

140. And your continuation of insults and defective logic is supposed to?

FYI, "Scientists" are quite adept at tailoring conclusions to the ends of additional funding. Just because "scientists" understand the difference between correlation and causation does not mean they won't blur the two to expidite continued funding. The phrase "in such a blatantly obvious way" is quite telling.
FWIW, "I am tired of trying to convince people of it" may mean that you are WRONG, or that your logic and methodology are not up to snuff. Your evidence is purely anecdotal, and there are too many variables unspecified to make it proof of anything!

[howard112211]

143. To prove a positive one example is sufficient.

That is why your complaints about "anecdotal evidence" are unfounded.

I am saying a link exists. All I have to do is present a single instance of it to prove that. I never argued about how likely it is that such a connection occurs.

I would tell my story but I don't think it would go over well here. There are too many people lined up who will accuse me of lying, just because my story doesn't fit their worldview.

[Swamp Rat]

144. N=1 is not sufficient.

Your logic is flawed and your methods are unsound.

[howard112211]

146. To prove that something exists, yes N=1 is sufficient.

One black sheep proves that black sheeps can exist. How often they occur is another question.

One rabbit fossil in the praekambrium would prove evoltion wrong.

[Swamp Rat]

147. EUREKA!! That proves your "schizophrenia-weed link" theory!!!

:rofl:

[montanto]

114. Those "non-scientists" us who

know how to read have read plenty to counter the OP. The OP even says that the results are inconclusive and that there could be pre-existing causes of psychosis. So? what are we left with? BS.

[LeftishBrit]

88. It's possible...

that people with a tendency to develop psychotic illness are more likely to choose to smoke cannabis as teenagers.

I certainly don't think that it's a good thing for young teenagers to use cannabis - or any drug that they don't strictly need medically; but as with many studies, it's hard to distinguish cause from effect.

[panzerfaust]

90. On the other hand, alcohol and tobacco are good for you: Which is why they are legal.

Right?

People have always used something to blunt the edge of reality. To me it would not be surprising that those who are closest to the edge might be more likely to use any type of mind-altering drug they can find.

On correlation, my current favorite: The more churches a town has, the more pimps and pushers it has.

[Mopar151]

94. I might suggest that your correlation metaphor could use an update

While pimp is in the current lexican, "pusher" is quite outdated, and does not differentiate between the multi-level marketing approach of pot user/dealers and the considerably more destructive methodoilgies of hard-drug distribution.
I would suggest that "meth lab" or "crack house" is a better fit in the current lexicon, depending on regional tendencies, i.e.

"The more churches a town has, the more strip clubs and meth labs are present."

[Lagomorph]

92. I don't know a damn thing...

...but as a wild guess, may I suggest that some marijuana users might be using pot to mask long time psychosis that simply grows out of control after years or decades of self medicating.

As I age, I grow more convinced that our western style society is a counter-intuitive, unnatural state that will eventually destroy our minds and bodies.

[Zhade]

96. Once again for the scientifically illiterate: correlation is not causation.

No matter how many bullshit studies are repeated, you're not fooling anyone. Marijuana is a medically-proven beneficial plant. No amount of lies and distortion will change that fact. Ever.

[Dreamer Tatum]

104. You'd have been a great "expert" for Big Tobacco nt

[Johonny]

111. when it correlates with medical benifits it gets rec'd up

when it correlates with long term negative results it's rec'd down. It's not like these two concepts are mutually exclusive. Even Aspirin has negative effects, yet no one denies it also has medical uses.

[TransitJohn]

98. These stories are psy-ops against the growing decrim/legalization movement. n/t

n/t

[Echo In Light]

101. +1

[RainDog]

99. Cannabis use before first onset of psychosis has health benefits for the psychotic

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0920996404003986
Cannabis use prior to first onset psychosis predicts spared neurocognition at 10-year follow-up.

(this article is behind a subscription wall because it's an academic paper. if you want to read the full study you can go to a university library that has a subscription to this journal.)

Scientific study demonstrating the value of cannabis for the treatment of various mental illnesses.

Cannabis, in controlled studies, not the b.s. of this one, results in NEUROGENESIS - or the production of new brain cells in the hippocamus.

The endogenous cannabinoid system controls extinction of aversive memories.

Marsicano G, Wotjak CT, Azad SC, Bisogno T, Rammes G, Cascio MG, Hermann H, Tang J, Hofmann C, Zieglgänsberger W, Di Marzo V, Lutz B.
Molecular Genetics of Behaviour, Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry, Kraepelinstrasse 2-10, 80804 Munich, Germany.

Acquisition and storage of aversive memories is one of the basic principles of central nervous systems throughout the animal kingdom. In the absence of reinforcement, the resulting behavioural response will gradually diminish to be finally extinct. Despite the importance of extinction, its cellular mechanisms are largely unknown. The cannabinoid receptor 1 (CB1) and endocannabinoids are present in memory-related brain areas and modulate memory. Here we show that the endogenous cannabinoid system has a central function in extinction of aversive memories. CB1-deficient mice showed strongly impaired short-term and long-term extinction in auditory fear-conditioning tests, with unaffected memory acquisition and consolidation. Treatment of wild-type mice with the CB1 antagonist SR141716A mimicked the phenotype of CB1-deficient mice, revealing that CB1 is required at the moment of memory extinction. Consistently, tone presentation during extinction trials resulted in elevated levels of endocannabinoids in the basolateral amygdala complex, a region known to control extinction of aversive memories. In the basolateral amygdala, endocannabinoids and CB1 were crucially involved in long-term depression of GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid)-mediated inhibitory currents. We propose that endocannabinoids facilitate extinction of aversive memories through their selective inhibitory effects on local inhibitory networks in the amygdala.

In other words, there is MORE EVIDENCE that cannabis is neuroprotective. There is no evidence that cannabis promotes psychosis from the study posted in the OP. There is evidence that those who already suffer from mental illness find that cannabis helps to relieve some of the symptoms, and in the case of brain damage, also helps to heal the brain.

[LanternWaste]

100. and on tonight's menu...

Oh-oh. Grill's on, coal's are hot, condiments are ready, and on tonight's menu...

[L0oniX]

103. A GOP controlled government can also do the same thing ...and what about Sara Palin followers?

Might I mention that worshiping Sara Palin can also do the same thing or listening to Rush Limpballz or watching Fux snews. Oh ...and how do you explain the tea baggers? Smoking tea maybe?

[asdjrocky]

105. Not this shit again.

Fake! Untrue! A bald face lie!

[Romulox]

106. Now do alcohol, nicotine...

:hi:

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[montanto]

109. Dude, there is all kinds of evidence out there.

You'd just have to look for it.

[Romulox]

110. Alcohol continues to be the most destructive drug in our society by a factor of 1000.

I await your impassioned (and "science based", no doubt!) plea for temperance. :hi:

[Echo In Light]

115. True...although greed, superficiality and competitive pride are still the #1 killers

[Dreamer Tatum]

119. So, Mr/Mrs Head of the FDA, your approval of Drug X is based entirely on what you guess

...is its favorable comparison to Drug Y.


Senator Jones: "Mr/Ms Romulox, is it your testimony before this Senate Panel that cannabis is completely safe and poses no serious long-term health concerns for anyone, ever, under any conditions?"

FDA Chief Romulox: "Look, alcohol is worse, so, hell, what's the difference?"

Senator Jones: "Is that really how you make public safety decisions?"

FDA Chief Romulox: "Yes."

Senator Jones: "I see. How empirical. Thanks for your testimony."


:eyes:

[Romulox]

122. But I thought this was all based on "Science"--now it's based on political expediency?

You're not making a whole lot of sense here.

[Dreamer Tatum]

123. I'm making perfect sense. I leave open the possibility of long term ill effects.

You swept it under the rug by bringing up alcohol.

You call that "science?"

[Romulox]

124. Right. But that's not "science"--it's just propaganda.

Remember that "science" was supposedly the basis of your authority. Once you've abandoned that, you're just another moralist, and since you cannot deal with the issue of alcohol's relative risks, a hypocritical moralist (is there any other kind?) at that!

[Dreamer Tatum]

125. So...appealing to a scientfic approach that MIGHT poke a sacred cow makes me a moralist?

Man, oh man, do we ever need a cheat sheet here to know the correct side of each issue.

My approach begs for study and empiricism. Your approach is to point at something else and cluck your tongue.

I say again: rejecting out of hand the possibility of long term ill effects of any alleged medicine is unempirical and stupid.

[Romulox]

126. No, insisting that the relative risks of substances is "not relevant" to the discussion of risk does

"My approach begs for study and empiricism."

Except as to the subject of the relative risks of marijuana vis a vis common every day substances which are not regulated by the FDA at all, you surely mean.

Because arguing that alcohol's risks are irrelevant to our assessment of the relative risks of marijuana is not "empirical" despite all your self-flattery to the contrary! :hi:

[Dreamer Tatum]

127. Boy, is that ever silly

I mean, staggering.

Drug X is fine because Drug Y might be more dangerous.

Sweet Lord. Thank heaven that real-world decisions aren't made the way you'd make them.

[Romulox]

128. You've conceded that alcohol is far more harmful, but cannot give up demonization of pot.

Frankly, you need to be staggered from your ossified form of thinking. Sorry that I had to be the one to do it, however! :silly:

[Dreamer Tatum]

138. I'm not demonizing pot. I'm questioning its long term effects.

Big difference. But I don't think you're arguing from a tenable or honest point of view, so whatever.

[asdjrocky]

112. As opposed to the all mighty bogus study being posted again and again.

The study is bad. It's kind of strange that you knock people who understand cannabis, when you so obviously understand so little about it.

A bad study is still a bad study, and that is what we are reacting to.

[Dreamer Tatum]

117. Suppose the study is bad

Does that completely negate the possibility that sucking the unfiltered smoke of a burning weed into your lungs for decades might in some instances cause negative effects?

No.

By "understand cannabis," I think you mean that you "like cannabis, and see its benefits as a medicine." Unless you have long-term, controlled studies of your own of its long term effects, you actually don't understand cannabis at all.

[asdjrocky]

130. Obviously you don't know that many people ingest or vaporise their cannabis medicine.

That's what I mean when I say you don't understand, because you don't.

Ignorance is understandable, why not educate yourself? The benefits for many, many medical symptoms is well know and well established for thousands of years. It's also a lot of fun and far less harmful than many of the other pastimes people enjoy. I feel that you are portraying cannabis bigotry because you don't know the full story.

Consider having a brownie and mellowing out.

[Echo In Light]

133. Ha...hey, I can envision your avatar pic espousing your last sentence there!

:smoke: :thumbsup:

[asdjrocky]

136. I always knew I liked you.

:smoke:

[montanto]

108. Blah blah, blah

"People who were vulnerable to psychosis, in other words had isolated psychotic symptoms, 'were more likely to commence cannabis use, which could then subsequently contribute to an increased risk of conversion to a non-affective psychotic disorder,' the research said."

Blah,blah . . . people with a predisposition to psychosis self medicate with all kinds of stuff, including pot. Some drink booze, too. Others shoot up. Proof again that there isn't PROOF that pot is harmful in that way.

[Romulox]

113. Without even googling, I guarantee there is a far higher correlation between ALCOHOL, TOBACCO use

and psychosis. Guarantee it! :hi:

[librechik]

116. ...you say that as if it's a bad thing

besides, I don't think 20 year old, more susceptible to psychosis in general than at any other age, can claim to be long time users. This study lacks a lot in credibility. What everyone else said about association and cause and effect.

[DainBramaged]

120. NO IT ISN'T no way, don't look at me like that.

[yellerpup]

121. How long term can 20.1 year-old people have been smoking pot? n/t

[Blackhatjack]

129. Funny, no mention of psychosis link to long time use of TWINKIES.

[immoderate]

134. Slowly I turn -- step by step -- inch by inch...

:smoke:

--imm

[Swamp Rat]

148. Wild Hyacinth?

woobwoobwoobwoobwoob... woob!!! :D

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ucAE_GrFrfM/SEmlQvj2dzI/AAAAAAAABnU/VQiMplR85iQ/s320/Three+Stooges.jpg

[immoderate]

150. Toledo, Ohio.

On edit: Check this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1375093

--imm

[The Revolution]

151. Full article

The full article is available for free, if anyone is interested.

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/2010.6?home