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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:22 PM
Original message
On health care
If the Obama administration really wanted to get something related to health care passed without changing for for profit system in this country, they should have been truly incremental in their approach. (There was a meme that Obama's plan was "incrementalism" but this was only used to fight against single payer advocates.)

True incrementalism would have been to have made small but significant changes: decrease the Medicare age from 65 to 60, then to 55. Extend programs for children, pregnant women. Put money into the roving health clinics (the ones Olbermann got his viewers to sponsor) and have them more able to reach the public. Put a percentage cap on annual insurance increases. (And here's where the threat of single-payer could have been useful: you either accept some form of price control or we will take the industry out from under you.) I'm sure there were other fixes that could have been done, even in the bad economy. One might have been to reduce medical school costs so that doctors didn't have astronomical debt and could afford to charge less, or to put a cap on malpractice insurance for the same reason.

But if you're going to do a major overhaul of healthcare and the true end result of that major overhaul is a consumer mandate to spend money consumers don't have on a product with no price or quality controls, then your overhaul is a sham, since to most people, health care reform would involve LOWER prices, BETTER care, LOWER profits and bonuses for Wall Street, and SOME government involvement at very least. So logically, if you want to win the Congressional elections in 2010 and you want to win the WH in 2012, you want something to get to the President's desk that has lower prices, better care, fewer profits for Wall Street and some government involvement. You also want something that the average person does not perceive as a threat, and a mandate to purchase health insurance under penalty of fine or even jail time IS a perceived threat. In fact, it's the only real enforceable threat, and the only part of the bill that has remained invariant through this entire process.

I am sure the WH and Congress had thought this out. I'm sure they knew what the people would perceive as helpful or effective. Surely, if many of us could see what was workable, their Ivy League educated brains could figure it out.


That's why, the only way their Health Insurance Industry-Big Pharma giveaway bill makes any sense is if the real goal was to get the mandates--mandatory customers, a captive public, a Wall Street bonanza. The rest was negotiable window dressing, political theater, and it had to be rushed through the House and Senate in record time to get it to Obama's desk before the general public realized what a crime was being committed under the guise of reform. The only decent thing the GOP did was slow down the progress of the bill, and they did this for their own political purposes, not for the public: my guess is the GOP wants a GOP Congress or president to put through the same thing so they can have all that big Insurance and Pharma money for their political coffers.

In the end, Obama spent most of his considerable political capital trying to pull a fast one on the American people. The mandates made him the enemy of working people everywhere and a clear friend of Wall Street. Add that to his choices of Geithner, Summers and company, and you have a sadly clear image of who Obama is working for.

And in the end, these people--the Geithners, the insurance industries, Wall Street--want no competition from the goverment on basic services like healthcare and education. (Or, in CA, many others. WATCH California and what happens with basic services--we're the test case for the new Milton Friedman world order.) Wall Street wants to make money off your every move, your every breath. And they don't want government run programs to interfere with their scams to take every last dime you have. Meanwhile, they will feast on our tax dollars, money we have to BORROW FROM THEM: we end up financing our own debt.

God help America.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. ..
..
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thanks.
>
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. KR
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. K/R
Can't be repeated enough, God help America.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you all for your recs.
I have about 5 or 6 by now, but you know how it goes.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Very sad,
but that is how it goes here.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yup
Especially if you are female. I have noticed that progressives are no different from conservatives when it comes to slamming women.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Company Store -- that's our future.
Cannon fodder for wars when we're young. Piggy banks to pay for fixing everything else while the rich get richer and get tax cuts when they snap their fingers.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Did you see Jon Stewart last night?
The skit with Samantha Bee really brought that point home.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. no -- I'll try to catch it tonight - thanks! n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Also make sure you see the Ricky Gervais interview
OMG! I never saw Jon lose it so much.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. k/r
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. The interesting thing is most people don't know about the mandates yet
Which is odd. The Republicans could hold the majority for DECADES if they got on the M$M and started screaming it out. But, nada.

Makes me wonder if the Democrats floated the 'mandate' talking point to the base, to see what would happen.

:shrug:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The mandates are actually in the Senate Bill. They will be in the final bill because
the only way the numbers work is if they are. No mandate, the system falls apart.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yet... *crickets* from the M$M and the (alleged) opposition party
hmmm
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Because, in the end, all parties you mentioned want the mandates
They are all working for the same corporatist agenda. So they are keeping mum because, in the end, if nothing else passes, the mandates will and they don't want anything to mess that up.
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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Massachusetts has mandates.
Yet the Republicans haven't made big gains there (Scott Brown notwithstanding). Polls indicate that Americans didn't mind the idea of a mandate until the public option was stripped out.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Scott Brown WAS a big gain.
And MA is in trouble. The system is costing far more than anyone thought it would. The difference will be made up by taxpayer dollars. So you get screwed either way. You might as well not have the risk of going to jail if you're going to be financially screwed anyway.
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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Well, since the Senate bill is modeled after the Mass. plan
I guess we can expect similar results on a national scale if it passes.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. That means many cost overruns
and taxpayers having to foot the ultimate bill.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. That is exactly right.
Mandates with a strong public option is one thing. Mandates without a strong public option is something else altogether. I told the Administration there is only one reason for not having a strong public option, that is because THEY caved to the insurance industry.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. and what percentage of thier income is the Mass mandates?
Bet it's not 10% of income.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. K+R well said. I wish this was not true.
God help us.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. At this point I am trying to pretty much ignore the whole HCR efforts
Edited on Tue Feb-23-10 03:55 PM by truedelphi
And be thankful for what did happen in my lifetime.

If LBJ had been as ineffective about Civil Rights as this Administration has been about HCR, Obama would not be President right now - he'd be shucking peas somewhere.

But LBJ pushed effectively for an entire sweeping reform.

He didn't run around with segregationists asking them how and what they felt they wanted and needed from Civil Rights reform.

He pushed on everyone in elected office and by the first week of JULY 1965 was signing the Civil Rights Act into law.

But when you have a Wall Street President, then you are not going to see anything but total ineffectiveness as the main, on camera activity. (We will, I guess, have to ignore all the back room WH deals with Big Pharma and Big Medical Interests, cuz we don't know what got said there.)

Strongest public statement all summer from Obama on HCR was this mealy mouthed statement to a Univ. Of Colorado student, "Well, uh, no one knows what will be in the final Health Care bill. But the public option is only one tool in a whole list of tools. And it might be that the public option won't even be in the final bill."

Boy did this Administration ever get that final sentence right:
"And it might be that the public option won't even be in the final bill."

And it took him until August of 2009 to come up with that!

On the credit side - it was totally difficult for Obama to keep his pledges to the Big Medical Interests, and he didn't waiver on keeping those pledges - he persevered, no matter how long it took.

It was hard for the President to keep his pledges and to create such a giveaway - after all he came into office with a 62% mandate for real change, and with 76% of all Americans wanting some form of public option. But his perseverance paid off - Big Time.

It just didn't pay off for We the Average People.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Never thought of LBJ asking segregationists "what they felt they wanted and needed from Civil Rights
reform"

Good Lord! That puts it in start relief, doesn't it.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I think that Obama' s main supporters are those who were born in the seventies,
Edited on Tue Feb-23-10 04:02 PM by truedelphi
Or who were little kids or infants during the LBJ Presidency.

As those of us who remember the last great truly liberal Presidents and what did get accomplished, as we grow older and pass off this mortal realm, the nation's control by the Right Wing politicans and policies will not have any opposition.

George W and Cheney's Administration moved this nation so far to the Right that Obama came as a relief. Yet he is so far Right Wing that Nixon would blush if reading about Obama's Big Industry giveaways. Nixon after all, instituted price roll backs when inflation in certain industries jumped FOUR PERCENT.

Obama has ignored the 50% price increases in Insurance premiums that have spiked the consumers' costs over the last four years.

And it was not Obama but California legislators that pressed for investigations into Anthem's recent attempts to have 29% this year increases in premiums.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That's right. CA's assembly rightly understands that the more money to Anthem, the less to state
services.

I hope they get something accomplished.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Those cost spikes are
just natural adjustments in a free market.



















:hide: :sarcasm:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Thanks for reminding me.
It's one lesson I keep forgetting!

:headbang:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Heh!
What a fucking joke.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. it's a good theory
good as any to explain the bot mentality that still exists for Obama
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kudzu22 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
47. You know something's wrong when
Richard Nixon is the voice of reason.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. I know that feeling. For me, all through
1968 till he left the Wh, he was the voice of treason.

But it's funny how times change how you view things.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
49. I must commend you
for those two posts, truedelphi. These are the facts, no reasonable way to ignore them.

I would like to have a camera on President Obama's face when he read them. I wonder if he has ever even considered where the black community would be if not for courageous choices made in the 1960s.

I am so fed up, beyond fed up.

When I voted for Barack Obama, I was duped.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. I was going to mention the name of someone here on DU
Who has kept me well instructed, but it would probably embarrass them. However the lights for me didn't go on till some 3 weeks after my vote was cast of the man who duped us.

But Tolkien said it fairly well decades ago "One ring to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them."

Of course he didn't know that the darkness would include endless hours of reality TV and little analysis of real news events.

You cannot bring about a totalitarian state unless you keep people misinformed. (And thus in the dark.)

Coming soon: Cap and Trade Bill, that will continue to tax the little people while offering Trillions for mechanical "trees" that are supposedly more efficient at carbon dioxide transformation, and the end to real trees. (Wish I was making this up, but the geo-engineering of our planet is at hand, and real trees, bushes, crops etc are a thing of the past if we let the One Big Money Party continue in its duplicity.)


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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I could see the start of this
in the 1980s with Reagan. My buds thought I was a bit off in the head when I ranted about this then. Unfortunately the fears I expressed then have come to fruition.

The election in 2000 was a huge blow to me. Here we were coming into a new century yet the PTB decided on corporate interests to light the way.

The whole thing makes me sick.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Spooky Tolkien quote
Although some would say he took the whole thing from Wagner. ;)
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. OMG what an astounding comparison
:thumbsup:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. And so right on!
The whole post is good.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
61. great post!
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. This twitter has been popping up all afternoon:
dailykos

Gibbs: Public Option Via Reconciliation Can't Pass http://bit.ly/d5HDB8 14 minutes ago via twitterfeed
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It "can't" pass, even though most of America wants a public option.
That means TPTB WON'T pass it. That's all. They never wanted a public option. They wanted mandates.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. knr - thanks, that just makes sense :) n/t
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
36. K&R
Dead on.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
37. K&R
The last paragraph says it all, :(
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Sadly yes.
:(
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-23-10 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'm curious---what, specifically do you believe is motivating this "betrayal"? One of your unrecs
was from me. I don't unrec often, but I always do it openly.

I have certainly not been happy with the health care debacle, but you basically are saying that this Democratic president has---what?
Been bought?
Is a "Manchurian Candidate" for Big Insurance?
Is just basically an evil or greedy man?

Is there anything in your post that wouldn't be enthusiastically welcome at---THAT site? It's the kind of thing they like: no facts or links---just opinion and speculation.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it quoted or reprinted "there".
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Money. Big Wall Street Money.
Boom.
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Is THAT all you got?
Bada-boom!

Any of those detail thingys?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. That's all you need.
That's all you asked.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. Deleted sub thread?
Interesting.
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I agree. Mods?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Dupe deleted.
Edited on Wed Feb-24-10 12:04 AM by Nikki Stone1
..
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. Don't you get it, Mr. Finch?
Obama is a public servant.

Problem is, he does not serve the electorate, or the American people, or anyone other term you might pick to describe the masses who are getting royally screwed in this process.

He serves his corporate overlords, the ones who control the government, who pay for legislation to be passed or be blocked. who use the federal coffers as an interest-free lending source in times of trouble.

some senators have begun to admit, in public, that the bankers won our government.

Add the insurance companies and Big Pharma to he equation, and you have your answer.

The only political leadership or movement that could ever hope to stand up to these entrenched powers would be a dedicatedly progressive, thoroughly principled one.

That is not what we have now.

What we have instead is an administration controlled by the "business" wing of the party. and they want their cut of the action.

End of story, end of health care reform, end of hope. For now.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. +1
.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
63. It took time for you to post this explanation
Edited on Thu Feb-25-10 03:26 PM by truedelphi
For which I sincerely thank you.

And I am not sure why it is that there are always about 20% of either party who do not want the truth. They just want to be left alone in their blind support of whomever from their party is now "representing them."

This is why I had to quit discussing the Iraq war with Republicans friends who believed that the "Mission Accomplished" banner was correct because after all, would George W lie to us?

And this is why I have certain Democratic friends that I no longer discuss politics with either. They love Obama, and he is personable and smart and charismatic -- and why, why can't I understand that he is playing fourteenth level inter-dimensional chess?



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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #40
62. lots and lots of hard evidence!
much has been posted by many on this site, and other places on the web

just look at O' prez campaign contributions, for starters:

Health

Obama, Barack $19,462,986
McCain, John $7,389,547
Clinton, Hillary $6,397,849
Romney, Mitt $2,283,350
Giuliani, Rudy $2,075,197
Paul, Ron $828,483
Richardson, Bill $778,170
Edwards, John $587,941
Thompson, Fred $537,429
Huckabee, Mike $491,202
Dodd, Chris $339,850
Biden, Joe $283,880
Brownback, Sam $108,580
Thompson, Tommy $67,811
Nader, Ralph $62,251
Kucinich, Dennis $54,357
Vilsack, Tom $32,800
Tancredo, Tom $31,600
Hunter, Duncan $27,930
Barr, Bob $22,550
Gilmore, Jim $15,600
Gravel, Mike $11,721
Keyes, Alan $11,600
Baldwin, Chuck $6,050

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/sectors.php?sector=H

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
51. K & R
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
52. K & R
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-24-10 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
53. God help America, indeed, Nikki! Rec'd. nt
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-25-10 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
60. K & R nt
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