I have a question for owners of japanese cars and trucks

[DainBramaged]

Why is it I STILL see Domestics from the 70's and 80's on the road every day, but I never see Honda's, Toyota's or Nissan's older than the late 80's/early 90's?


We took in a 1982 Cutlass Supreme last week, garage kept. 84000 miles. Immaculate. The wholesalers and employees were fighting over the car. We took in a 1994 Honda Civic with 201,000 miles. Rusted, smoking, and we wound up selling it for scrap because there were no takers.

What's wrong with this picture folks??? You can find immaculate OLD Domestics all over the Country every day of the week and at car shows any night or weekend during the Summer, but you won't find japanese cars. And if you do, they are probably limited to the West Coast. A '66 Chevy Malibu (non SS) original (there are many) will still bring tens of thousands at auctions or private sales. Any Toyota's or Honda's around that can match that record?

[SoCalNative]

1. Likely because

they can wholesale the imports out for a premium to other countries.

But nobody outside the US wants to drive an American-made piece of crap.

PS: I'm still driving my 1998 Honda Civic with just over 70k original miles.

[dipsydoodle]

9. That's partly due to the fact

that outside of the USA gas guzzlers are not too popular and US cars had a reputation for being so.

[Kalyke]

43. Wow - the misinformation in this post reeks.

AMERICAN CARS IN EUROPE.; THEIR POPULARITY INCREASING IN ENGLAND AND ON THE CONTINENT: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9500EFDE123BE033A25750C1A9649C94639FD7CF


AMERICAN CARS STATUS SYMBOLS FOR EUROPEANS: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1N1-10853BB266BF06A1.html

Australians love them, too: http://www.americancarclub.net/

Sorry... nice try, but no dice.

And my 1996 Mustang was just fine when I traded it in with more than 150,000 miles two years ago. It needed a clutch. Big whoop.

[quiller4]

46. Actually, US made cars are selling extremely well in China where

Buick is the prefered brand.

[lbrtbell]

91. I have a Buick

And every other car around here seems to be a Buick, too. They're great cars. :)

[ingac70]

96. They top Lexus for quality. n/t

[ingac70]

84. The US gets hefty tariffs smacked on its cars.

Especially JAPAN. We essentially aren't allowed to sell our "shit" there.

[Statistical]

86. Who should fix that?

My guess would be US govt.
We could put up reciprocal tariffs. We can sue and seek fines from WTO?

Our govt doesn't, I don't know why but they don't. Who's fault is that Congress or Japan?

[ingac70]

90. Congress should fix it.

Make buying Japanese cars as expensive as American cars in Japan.

Japan has said nasty shit about American workers and unions for years, so they can all go to hell.

[704wipes]

143. Japan has talked smack about American engineering too

So who were the development engineers on the Toyota Surge?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[NoGOPZone]

108. The so called Chicken Tax is arguably a reciprocal tariff

It's got an interesting history. I'd link some articles but the OS on this shared computer is so restricted I can't even figure out how to cut and paste.

[Ganja Ninja]

115. Correct. Exporters buy up the used imports and export them to other countries.

That's why you hardly ever see really old Japanese cars on the road. And if you look around you'll see most of the remaining Japanese cars are the ones that were re-badged under an American name like Geo's.

[SoCalDem]

152. My husband's commuter car is our '91 Accord EX..250K +miles

and it still runs like it's new..

[Shell Beau]

2. I have seen some pretty old Hondas on the road.

Not sure what the stats would be, but Hondas last a long time. Mine is still kicking hard, and it is a 97 with 250,000 miles on it. I could sell it for 2 grand, which seems like a lot for a 13 year old car with that mileage. We are getting a new car soon, and I will go with Honda again because of the reliability. We did consider a Chevy though.

[vadawg]

3. better question is why do you care if i choose to buy a japanese. german, french or american car

surely it should be my the consumers choice to buy the vehicle that most fits my needs,

[Kalyke]

44. Because if you keep choosing Asian products, then Americans

will not have jobs.

:eyes:

[Statistical]

47. Americans do have jobs making Toyotas and Hondas.

[Kalyke]

69. Not for long.

Japan is losing jobs, so Toyupyours is moving it's plant in California back over to Japan. Tom Hartmann talked all about that yesterday.

And, our GNP suffers.

Not to mention, if we, God forbid, got into another world war, you really don't think the Japanese would let the United States convert their rice-burning plants into war machine makers like Ford and GM, do you?

[Statistical]

82. If we get into a war industry won't last the first salvo.

The human race has gotten about much better a killing and destroying stuff in the last 60 years and improvements in protecting stuff not so much. There will never be another WWII. There will never be massive beach invasions, or us building 20,000 tanks a month, or building ships faster than the Germans can sink them.

Modern war (between two major powers) is fought with the toys you have because when it starts because the ability to build new weapons can't be protected. War is about exploiting weakness and using a million dollars in bombs to destroy a billion dollars in industry is the mother of all weaknesses.

How do you defend a fighter jet factory full of precision equipment from ground hugging, precision guided, air launched cruise missiles fired 200 miles off the coast. Not only has the ability to destroy stuff increase the precision has also. In WWII they had to drop thousands of TONS of bombs to hit a factory (and 90% ended up hitting the city). Modern weapons have accuracy of meters, ranges in thousands of miles, can punch through virtually any defenses. Even if you could protect a factory against one what about 10, 20, 50. Now imagine not just that one plant but all plants. How would you defend them all at the same time against all attacks. The cost of a cruise missile is negligible compared to the value of the destroyed target (fighter factory).

Even if you could harden the factories what about all the parts suppliers, what about the railroads to deliver raw material, what about all the power plants? Hell eveen the power grid itself is very fragile. A moderate number of long range missiles delivering cluster bombs to keep substations would cause thousand of man-hours and hundreds of millions of dollars in repairs to our electrical grid in a matter of seconds with a million or two in ordinance.

The damage potential of weapons far exceeds their cost especially against vulnerable infrastructure. A million dollars in percision ordinance can cause hundreds of millions of dollars in damage. There is no reason not to use them. This is why we would target infrastructure and it is why our enemies would too.


Lastly the United States is a nuclear power. We will never fight a peer in conventional war. Do you think the US would ever surrender? That we would allow the US to fall to foreign power with 5,000 nuclear weapons in silos? Any major war between two nuclear states will ultimately end in either cease-fire of nuclear exchange.

Sorry to break your romantic view of domestic industry supporting a war effort aka WWII. It will never happen.

[Kalyke]

93. Sorry you think pissing away our economy is romantic.

Every single thing you just mentioned in trying to refute me would be better improved if we had American jobs, American manufacturing and people investing in America.

You just proved my point for me. Thanks.

[lbrtbell]

98. But the union jobs pay better

These foreign cars are cheaper because they save money on the backs of their workers.

I've rented Japanese cars--they're crap.

[Statistical]

121. Guess everyone is a sucker except you.

BTW I think labor only makes up about $500 in price of a car or at least that is what I remember hearing during GM Bankruptcy.

Also imports generally sell for HIGHER price than Domestics. Chevy often has $2K, $3K, $5K, even $7K rebates of vehicles. If you buy a Honda you are lucky to get $500 off.

[Romulox]

129. Almost every "fact" in this reply is simply incorrect. nt

[vadawg]

50. so i should buy a product i dont want rather than a product i do want

anyway though my truck was made in japan, toyota does employ americans making cars and in the dealerships etc.

[Kalyke]

77. I guess you don't read.

JAPANESE PLANTS ARE CLOSING AND TAKING THEIR JOBS BACK TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

There... was that loud enough for you?

[vadawg]

79. and even if they do i will still buy their product if its what i want or need

at the moment i drive a japanese made vehicle...

[Kalyke]

95. Then you should pay more for the luxury of pissing away our jobs.

Easy solution.

[vadawg]

101. if you like, but ill still buy from a company whose products i like,

why should i have to buy a product i dont want, rather than the product i do want. You do realise im still going to buy the toyota if thats what fits my need. Also im pretty sure as others have said that a lot of the so called american companies are now building cars in mexico and other places or do they not count..

[1gobluedem]

147. So, it's all about you, right?

And not the unfair trade practices and closed markets. That's all okay, as long as you get what you want, right? Just trying to clarify.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vadawg]

106. rofl well i gotta say my toyota looks and feels better made than the ford, dodges and chevys i drive

but its all down to our own opinions and preferences,

[Obamanaut]

112. I've had great success with riding non-domestic motorcycles. My

first was in 1961, with many in between. I trade at 3 to 5 years because I like new stuff, and I can.

I've never been stranded on the side of the road.

[Kalyke]

184. I guess so... if you like cars that look the Praying Mantis's they are.

Japanese cars look like Widow-makers... and, well... they are. And Widower-makers, too.

[Obamanaut]

70. Lift up your keyboard. Turn it over. Where was it made?

edited to add: unless it's a laptop, that will make it more difficult - but you can turn the whole laptop over.

[Kalyke]

76. And that has piss-all to do with anything.

You can't FIND American-made electronics, but you can find American-made cars.

I wish I could find American-made electronics. I'd be buying them.

My Dad used to design the molds for electronics in telephones and VCRs, now, no one does that in this country any more. It's pretty sad (FWIW, I kept my 1980s model VCR up until my son was about 2 years old and fed it a PB&J sandwich. It would have still been working - and I still have an old flip phone that still works. None of my Asian products have lasted that long).

[Obamanaut]

110. Maybe this will help

I googled ‘computer made in usa’ and came up with this. It may well be they are not telling the truth, but they advertise on their site the products are made in the US and they use union labor.

I’m not going to buy one just to check, but that is what's on their site.

There may be others, but I’m not gonna check that either, because I’ve never stated I will only buy domestic.




http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/home.php

My current motorcycle is a 1500cc Suzuki. The three before this one were Honda. I've also had Kawasaki and Yamaha. I trade them in after 3 or 5 years because I can, and I like new stuff. The only thing that ever failed on any of them was tires and batteries.

[Obamanaut]

134. It has piss-all to do with yes you can find American made electronics.

Perhaps people who suggest these products cannot be found just have not looked - or looked in the wrong places.

In another post I gave you a link to a computer advertised as made in usa

[Kalyke]

185. Did you actually look at the site?

Did you research it?

I work in the IT field in marketing and can take once glance at that site you gave me and tell you that's it's, well, in its infancy if it's to be believed.

I work in marketing and I can build a better web page in my sleep. I have a business REASON to call these folks and see how legit they are.

And I will.

[RB TexLa]

155. And can you give the reason why Americans are more deserving of jobs than people in Asia?

[Kalyke]

186. Because I live here.

Duh.

If they have problems with their role in their government, they should hack it out. Here... is my business.

[Bill McBlueState]

57. so...

I haven't read the *whole* thread yet, but is anyone actually arguing that consumers shouldn't be able to choose their cars?

[vadawg]

61. oh your allowed to choose as long as its ford or gm it seems

but what if the vehicle you like or want is a toyota or honda, my thing is buy what you like i certainly do...

[Kalyke]

78. No. But I think their choice of putting Americans out of jobs and

sending our GNP to other countries should be at their consequences and not at the behest of those of us who are trying to keep union members employed, build up our GNP and keep dollars flowing around the United States instead of overseas.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/2009/07/14/obama-drinks-friedman%E2%80%99s-kool-aid/

Just asking Americans to do the right thing, is all. :hi:

[lbrtbell]

94. Wow, did you ever miss the point

The OP wasn't telling you what to buy, but asking Japanese car owners why one sees so many older American cars on the road, compared to Japanese ones.

The obvious answer, of course, is that American cars were built better. I can attest to that, having owned American and Japanese cars. One of each was involved in eerily similar accidents. The American car received a large dent that was repaired, and the car was road-ready again. The Japanese one literally folded like an accordion. If our regular backseat passenger had been in the car that day, she would have been killed.

I've bought American-made ever since.

[vadawg]

109. no the whole point of the poster is the same as every post he posts

its foreign cars bad, cars made by his company good, never anything subjective. I am going to be pissing myself silly when the next big recall comes and hes on here defending GM for all its worth..

[Kalyke]

194. Got rear-ended by a Mack truck, literally, in a 1992 Mustang.

Other than the back window shooting out, I had no clue my car was totaled. A nurse on the road crawled into the back window and kept my head straight until the ambulance arrived. They covered me up because I kept straining to see the car.

When I finally went to claim it... the whole car had collapsed on itself EXCEPT for the passenger compartment. It was A-OK minus the window.

I will NOT own anything but a Ford. It fucking saved my life.

[havocmom]

4. recently heard my ol Corolla finally bit the dust

1971 model.

[SoCalNative]

37. And my family's 1979 Celica

was still going strong until Dad had to give up driving and donated it to charity.

[flvegan]

5. 70's to mid 80's Japanese cars are notorious for rust.

On top of that, most of them were simply horrible. While the 70's and 80's (1973 to 1985, is my call) is nothing but a vast wasteland of crap for domestics as well, they were much better than their Japanese counterparts. I think the trucks built by GM/Ford at the time were especially good.

[Statistical]

12. Exactly. In 70s imports were known for one thing only... cheap.

Nobody bought them for quality. They bought them because they were cheap.

What killed Detroit was the fact that the Import brands were able to pivot and begin building first quality engines (in crappy cars) and then quality cars. Most imports in 80s were pretty "cheap" material fit and finish wise but the powertrains were solid and gas sippers and a lot of consumers flocked to that after the oil shocks. The one two punch was when by the mid 90s the Imports had progressed to building quality engines and quality vehicles.

Detroit didn't answer back for long time and was finally getting back into the quality game by in mid 2000s but had 99% of their eggs in the SUV market when oil prices killed that off.

Today though I think Ford (haven't really looked at Chevy) builds vehicles better than any point in last 20 years. Which is great for the consumer! More competition, more quality products, more value. Isn't that what it is suppose to be all about?

[flvegan]

22. The gas crunch pushed the little econobox segment as well.

To me, the mid-late 70's were all about mileage and the Japanese really got a foothold with their miserly little shitboxes. NOBODY bought a Datsun B210 or Mazda GLC because they were good cars. They did point A to point B with all the horsepower and gusto of that Grinch sled pulling dog, easily bested by any hill or corner in the road. But, they did pass gas stations with regularity, parts falling off as you drove.

I agree with your sentiment about Ford. I also think GM is building more and more high quality product, and it's starting to show. Mindsets are indeed changing.

[Mopar151]

135. I'm with ya on the trucks

My '72 F-350 (O'l Homer) is still with me. "Nothin' lasts 'cept old Fords and natural stone" Willie Nelson.
Try restoring an Import to the level of the Mustangs, Dusters and Camaros you see at cruise nights - the prices of replacement parts (especially electrical) is shocking! Plus a lot of the new technology for domestics swaps easily into the older cars.
I can buy 3 brand new crankshafts for an American V-8 for the price of 1 for a Triumph. and I can go on.....

[leftofcool]

6. I will keep my Toyota, thanks n/t

[Missy Vixen]

7. We have a '94 Nissan Sentra and a '96 Toyota Tacoma

We'll be buying a Ford Focus or Fusion when we can afford to. Right now, though, we're making do with what we have.

[Juneboarder]

15. Ford Focus

That car will fall apart. My co-worker bought a brand new Focus with 7 miles on it three years ago. She has put more than $5000 into the car over the last 3 years. I, on the other hand, have been driving different toyota's over the past 11 years and have not had to do one mechanical repair; just regular maintenance.

[Statistical]

17. Why would someone pay $5000 in repairs for a car under warranty? n/t

[Juneboarder]

20. That's the BIG QUESTION of the day :)

I have yet to figure it out myself; however why would anyone lie about spending so much money in repairs on their new car?

[Barack_America]

26. Unless she's confusing repairs and maintenance.

:shrug:

[Juneboarder]

31. Her husband is an auto mechanic

So I don't think there's much confusion going on there. As well, do you pay $5000 over 3 years for routine maintenance? I would think you'd be getting ripped off if that were the case...

[Barack_America]

36. If you buy into the bullshit the dealership sells you, you could.

Easily.

But, I agree, with her husband being a mechanic, that is unlikely in this case.

[SoCalNative]

38. Because there are things not covered under that "warranty"

provided on new cars. It's usually just the powertrain that's covered, not bumper to bumper for everything that goes wrong.

[Statistical]

41. What cars are you buying that don't have at least 36,000 miles bumper to bumper?

Some have longer (60,000 or 100,000 miles) powertrain warranty but I don't know a brand without a 36K b2b warranty.

[quiller4]

62. Actually, Ford warranties are very comprehensive and cover

lots of the small stuff, too, if you take it to the dealership. A local shop hungry for business won't necessarily tell you that. I have plenty of Ford warranty experience. Spouse worked at a Ford-Toyota dealership from 1979-1990 and we've owned a 1985 Toyota truck as well as 1984, 88 and 92 Tempos, 1986 Ranger, 1992 and 1995 Thunderbird/Thunderbird SC and 1995 F 150.

One of the reasons we sold the 1985 Toyota truck and got the 1986 Ranger was the better Ford warranty and that was when my hunsband was an employee of the dealership that served both vehicles.

[vadawg]

18. yup i drive fords every day at work and thats the reason why i buy toyota for personal use

and keep away from chryslers, gotta be even worse than skoda or lada..

[quiller4]

51. Sisters' Ford Focus has 125,000 and no major repairs. We have

a 1995 F 150 with 175,000 that got a new clutch at 165,000 and has had a few brake jobs and sets of tires but no other repairs.

My sister's Focus makes the Tacoma-Seattle commute 5 days a week and gets better mileage than her son's Civic. Her son is trading his Civic on a Focus when he finishes grad school this year.

My other sister has an Escape Hybrid and has put 85,000 miles on it with regular trips from Portland, OR to Vancouver BC to see the grandchildren. She says it is the best car she has ever owned. Her daughter just traded a 2007 Prius in for 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid and is thrilled that she is getting better mileage than EPA estimates.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kalyke]

99. Doubtful.

The Focus gets a 9.9 quality rating out of 10.

Someone, somewhere is making up crap.

[Juneboarder]

105. Yea...

A Ford Focus getting a 9.9 out of 10 (almost perfect)?!? Who created the rating... Gallup while polling their rethugs?:rofl:

[Kalyke]

188. No - real people.

You know, American-job, union-supporting people.

BTW, Ford's kicking everyone's ass right now. Deal with it.

:rofl:

[Juneboarder]

203. How so?

By leading the industry in total recalls?

[CBR]

199. My brother had a Ford Focus for 8 years... until he crashed it.

No major or minor problems with his car.

[Statistical]

8. You knew the answer.

Quality of Imports didn't start matching Domestics until late 80s.

However the idea that any car is an investment (by a cherry picked set of examples) is silly.

Cars depreciate and most people aren't looking to keep them 3 decades. Even if they could they don't want to. The goal would be to find a car that loses the least amount of value in the timeframe you will own it.

Despite your anecdotes the 5 years and 7 year residuals on many Domestics was downright horrible a couple years ago. They are improving which is a good thing but Toyota and Hondas still hold good value after 5 years.

[vadawg]

10. yup i figure my truck will be scrap by the time its 5 years old, just due to the punishment it takes

im not looking to recoup anything on it when i replace it, for me its getting a vehicle that fulfills my needs and for the price i want to pay.

[lbrtbell]

103. You didn't get the memo, then

Frugal living is king now, and people are choosing to keep and repair their cars, rather than buying new ones to keep up with the Joneses.

My Buick is about 20 years old, and the most $$ I've put into it is what I paid for new struts. It's only got 80,000 miles on it, and I plan on keeping it for at least 10 years, or until it's beyond repair, whichever comes first.

People should be trying to keep their vehicles and other items out of scrap heaps, not adding to our planet's waste by forever buying new things before the old ones are worn out. :)

[Barack_America]

11. Can we just call a truce and admit that Detroit was disconnected from American...

...consumers for a long time, but that there is now no reason that Americans should not strongly consider American-made cars?

I'll admit my shame, I am from Detroit and I own a 2000 Honda. Ironically, I bought that Honda after my Neon's throttle stuck and it almost killed me. I wanted a simple, reliable sedan and all Detroit had to offer me at the time was SUVs, minivans and sedans with more attention to the plastic spoilers attached to them than the engine life or gas mileage. My next car, however, will be American-made as Detroit now leads the pack in cars suited for my needs.

[wuushew]

13. Ancient low mileage sedans are often granny cars

you're just seeing the echos of previous decade's demographics and purchasing choices.

[ParkieDem]

23. Go to Dubai.

I have never seen more older Hondas and Mitsubishis in my life. They are particularly driven by the South Asian working class -- once they get to Dubai, they don't last long in the heat, humidity and salt air, but they are very popular overseas.

[theoldman]

14. Here are two reasons you do not see a lot of old Japanese cars.

They are very difficult to maintain because the parts are very expensive. They were very difficult to work on. The older Japanese cars were also very unreliable. I bought a new 1974 Datsun. It was the worst car I ever owned. I had to repair it about every 90 days. The motor and transmission were good but even the paint was junk.

[Mopar151]

160. I gotta say

The wiring on 70's and 80's Toyotas, Mitsubishis, and Isuzus is wierder than a snake's underwear.

[Kalyke]

189. Jeesch... you ain't kiddin'!

Try finding a solenoid on one of those m-fers!

[c brand]

16. The Honda owner got over 200K miles out of it

It's very typical of every Japanese car owner I know. My neighbor is driving a Camry with 250,000 mi. A friend of mine put - at least - 300,000 mi on his Nissan pickup before it quit.

[Ozymanithrax]

19. There are several 240z's around the neighborhood, and lots of...

70 and 80 vintage Japanese cars on the road here. The SUV craze of the 90's outmoded most of them, because they tended to be small.

I have a 2002 Honda Odyssey with half again more mileage than that Cutlass. It is driven every day. What shape would that Cutlass be in if it was driven every day, through snow, salt, bad weather. If Children vomited in it, ate in it, lost their toys in it, and if people banged it up in parking lots. It would probably be a rusted pile of junk. A garage doesn't put much mileage on a car.

What you are talking about is the collectors market. Many of those cars have been extensively repaired. (A friend of mine has a 57 Caddy. Sweet.). Most cares, including the Japanese variety, are work cars, used constantly, and driven until they are dead.

On the other hand, my in laws h ave a 1986 BMW that is a dream to drive. It has never been babied, bu it has received every bit of maintenance ever required at a BMW dealership.

[LuvNewcastle]

21. I have a friend who has a 1984 Nissan pick-up,

but he never drives it. It just sits in the yard and accumulates rust. That's the oldest vehicle I know of in my area that is of a Japanese make. I think people don't save the Japanese cars because they don't have as much style as the American cars and German cars. People tend to use Japanese cars as work horses and just drive them into the ground. I drive a 1996 Nissan Altima and as soon as something serious goes wrong with it, it's going to the junkyard.

[beevul]

24. The way I see it...

The way I see it, "built to last" has different meanings depending on which car company you apply it to.

The japanese cars, and trucks for that matter, may run "forever" but they are rust buckets more often than not - unless you live somewhere without winter weather.

My little 25 year old s-10 pickup having lived its entire life in nebraska has no real rust to speak of, while a fella I work with has a toyota pickup thats 3 years old and has no rocker panels left.

Theyre rusted GONE.

American cars were, up to a point, built so that the owner - if he or she cared to - could maintain and repair it themselves.

Less so with the japanese cars.

I say this as someone thats been involved with cars since I was big enough to pick up a wrench, and now days can do his own datalogging and ecm tuning on almost any American made computerized car or truck - as well as about anything mechanical.

FWIW my s-10 blazer accrued 240k before I put it out to pasture - literally - as a parts truck for my pickup.

[hobbit709]

25. Here's my list for the last 25 years

1980 Datsun pickup-finally wore out at 375,000 mi. Used for newspaper delivery on bad county roads.
1987 Ford pickup-transmission blew up after 110,000-used also on paper route.
1986 Toyota Camry- bought for $500 at auction-lasted 190,000 until creamed by a drunk.
1990 Misubishi Axxess-I totalled that one after 130,000
1992 Pontiac Transport-110,000 until computer crapped along with tranny.
1997 Ford Taurus-110,000 until engine blew up while driving down Mopac
1992 Toyota pickup- bought it 6 years ago-now has 120,000 on it and all I've spent on it is for tires and oil changes.

My brother had a 1974 Toyota Corolla that he drove until it finally fell apart-in 2001. All he ever did to it was routine preventive maintenance and tires. He bought it new for $2500.

[uncle ray]

27. the same reason that clapped out old truck still on the road has a

BUSH 04 bumper sticker.

[Greyhound]

28. Probably because you live someplace wet. Why don't you find old Ford trucks

all over the Chicagoland area? Because Ford doesn't/didn't use galvanized steel for the oil pan and the salt eats them in a couple of years.

I have a Datsun B-210 that's been one of our 'farm cars' for over 30 years. 300,000+ miles, hasn't seen a paved road since the early 90s, doesn't burn a drop of oil, starts even after sitting for months in the arena and being a jungle-gym for goats. Is she typical? No, but then neither is a 30 years old K-car or a Vega.

[uncle ray]

40. the only foreign car i ever owned was a datsun 210.

i got as much hoonage out of it as any of the domestic cars i've owned. i can't fault datsun's engineers for the rear control arm breaking off after i jumped my driveway and got a couple of feet of air.

[Greyhound]

42. LOL! They are/were ugly little tanks weren't they? n/t

[madmom]

29. I find it highly ironic that at the same time there is a thread about...

how good foreign cars are and how we buy what we want and need yada yada, there is another thread trashing people for shopping at walmart. Only in America, only on DU.:banghead:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7774613&mesg_id=7774613

[Statistical]

45. Many "foreign" cars are made in US. Many "american" ones are made overseas.

GM is building one of the largest auto plants in the world.... in China.

Anyone who thinks there is "loyalty" from American companies apparently hasn't been looking around for last 10 years.

Corporations exists for the sole purpose of maximizing wealth of shareholders. Period.
Nearly 20% of American stock is owned by foreign entities. So GM shareholder in Dubai clears some nice coin because people buy into the myth of "American company".

The idea of "American" companies is quaint and doesn't fit the times.

Corporations are corporations and exists to maximize wealth for shareholders.

[madmom]

53. One of the biggest complaints against walmart is their ..

non-union stance and how they treat the employees. Why is that not a factor with the foreign car companies? They are non-union and have sub-par pay and not much in the way of benefits, kinda like the argument against walmart wouldn't you say?

[blue_onyx]

73. What exactly is "many?"

"GM is building one of the largest auto plants in the world.... in China" to build vehicles they sell in China.

[Statistical]

85. Within 3 years GM will sell more cars in China than in the US.

They all will be made in China not helping American GM employees 1%.

The idea that there are good "American" companies and "ebil" foreign ones is silly. It has no basis in reality.

Corporations ONLY care for maximizing profits for shareholders.

If GM could figure out a way to do maximize profits and fire every single American tomorrow without consequence they would. Toyota and Honda would too. It just turns out between PR value (made in America), shipping costs, and tariffs it is still worth it to build cars here so they do.

There is no loyalty to the American, so the American doesn't owe any loyalty to the corporations.

[blue_onyx]

92. Care to answer...

my question about exact how many vehicles GM makes outside the US for the US market?

[Bill McBlueState]

63. this is only a conflict if the same poster takes both positions

Otherwise, I'd just chalk it up to a diversity of opinion on DU.

[madmom]

140. There are many posters on DU who think

if someone shops at walmart, they are the scum of the earth, but think it's ok do buy a foreign car.

[Kalyke]

72. I don't buy Japanese crap and I don't shop at Wally World.

I also have a (still working) American television set and I try to buy as many clothes as I can from American companies.

I work very hard not to be a hypocrite!

:hi:

[madmom]

141. You are a rare breed, I'm sorry to say.

[RobinA]

166. Well, I Guess

I'm going straight to hell. I shop at Wal*Mart AND drive nothing but Japanese cars. Oh, wait, I did have a Jetta a few cars back.

[TheCowsCameHome]

30. Not counting cruise nights, I don't see many daily driver older domestics.

I drive an '85 LeSabre a few times a week, and it's a real dinosaur.

[jdlh8894]

39. I'm with ya

On daily basis - 1982 Chevy Chevette (80,000 miles)
for when needed - 1983 Chevy 2000 Van (79,000)

[ztlore]

32. Got over 200000 mi. out of every Japanese vehicle I've owned

since graduating from high school. I drove them until I got tired of looking at them. I just changed things like tires, fluids, brake pads. Plus one time items like new battery, plugs & CV joint. American cars I've driven and borrowed simply did not have the reliability of Japanese vehicles.

[Walk away]

33. My Corolla was on the road for fifteen years and I didn't need to be a backyard mechanic...

to keep it on the road. I now have a Rav4 2005. My Mechanic says it's one of the most reliable cars on the road. At 70,000 miles it has only needed fluid changes and new tires and a break job. It's fun to drive and gets great gas mileage. If Toyota cleans up it's act I'll be happy to buy another.

It's a bunch of crooks in corporate that are the problem. The cars are fantastic.

[leveymg]

34. Old American cars are owned by old Americans, old Japanese cars by Salvadorans (5th owners)

Old Hondas and Toyotas are driven to death, while old Buicks are garaged until their first owners die.

That's why you can still find cherry domestics from the '80s - they tend to be owned by people in their 80s who only drive them once a week.

[DainBramaged]

52. (sigh) right, OK you have it down pat.

:eyes:


You few folks here who own old japanese cars are the exception, and no matter how you try to justify your response, the fact of the mater is simple. People CARE about their American cars, they could give a shit about preserving japanese iron, period.


Any car auction any week of the year, you see American cars from all eras. japanese cars, uh no.

[Lerkfish]

58. I normally like your posts, but you're being a bit myopic and hard-headed about this issue

you have a foregone conclusion that your maintain in spite of anyone's responses. Since you asked for our responses, it seems pointless.

[DainBramaged]

68. Sorry, at work, difficult to concentrate

will try harder......

[leveymg]

74. I've owned American and Japanese (and UK, German, Italian, French, Swedish). Loved 'em all.

The high-milage champion is our '92 Volvo 740 wagon (270,000 miles). Still with us. The '86 Camry had 210K, the '77 Dodge Aspen about 185,000 when we passed them on. The others we didn't keep as long.

The one I wish I still had was the car I bought in High School. '67 Mustang Fastback with a Shelby 289 and a 4-speed - lowered, Koni shocks, swaybars, - a lot like Steve McQueen's "Bullitt" car, only butter yellow, similar to this one:



The only one I couldn't keep running was the damned French car. It just didn't seem worth the trouble to fix the Renault 4CV:



RIP. Never bought another French car.

The "one that got away", that I wish I had bought was a '56 Aston Martin DB2/4 with a Ford 289 in it. Sort of a back-yard Cobra. Could've had it for $1200 in 1974:

[RobinA]

168. I Cared About

my '73 Duster, but it rusted out around 120,000. Not that that is relevant to much of anything. I REALLY cared about my '73 TR-6. Still have it, in fact, blown engine and all.

[LeftinOH]

35. There are precious few 80s vehicles on the road in the rust belt -

-and that's "rust belt" in every sense of the word. As for car shows, nobody expects to see a mint condition '71 Datsun or an '85 Cressida -and you probably won't; those econo-cars got used, not pampered.

[Mopar151]

159. There are a few Japanese "cult cars"

The Datsun 510, and 240Z. Mazda RX7 and Miata. Old Toyota Land Cruiser. The Nissan Skyline/240 SX may get there.
2 of my friends took Datsuns to the SCCA Runoffs this year!

[Fla_Democrat]

48. On my second Tacoma

Gave up the first after 270K miles, (needed a rear end), current one has over 150K. My father still drives an Isuzu PuP, which has over 400K miles on it, (lot of driving between Miami and Valdosta). I'll stick with what I know works, thanks. :hi:


We took in a 1982 Cutlass Supreme last week, garage kept. 84000 miles. Immaculate. The wholesalers and employees were fighting over the car. We took in a 1994 Honda Civic with 201,000 miles. Rusted, smoking, and we wound up selling it for scrap because there were no takers.

Wow, they are almost the same car. I'm surprised no one wanted a rusted, smoking pile of metal with almost 2.5X the mileage of the cutlass. WTF is wrong with some buyers? :smoke:

[ingac70]

87. Be sure to keep an eye on that undercarriage of that Tacoma. n/t

[Fla_Democrat]

118. So far, so good

but a word to the wise is sufficient. :hi:

[Obamanaut]

49. An older domestic 'garage kept' such as the 1982 Cutlass will last

a very long time in the garage.

An import, such as the 1994 Civic with 210,000 miles, is usually driven (not garage kept) and thus suffers the rigors of use.

[Lerkfish]

54. seems like a loaded question, but

I"ve owned both domestic and japanese cars.
in general maintenance, japanese cars ran with less repair needs, with the exception of a toyota I owned that had bizarre acceleration problems (interesting now with current events), but I sold it over 12 years ago. It had the opposite problem of current model lemons -- it would DEcelerate while going down the road and then inexplicably shut down cold dead. A couple of times this was in the middle of a busy road and almost caused an accident.

but the domestic cars I owned were in the shop contstantly. and usually for high ticket items: starters, carburetors, etc.

The most successful cars I've owned have been a Subaru, a Mercury Villager (current), Isuzu sylus, Honda Accord, Honda accord (current), Kia Rio

the least successful have been an Impala, a gremlin, a Toyota, and another impala and a cougar.


btw, your post includes collector automobiles, which are a different category ('66 chevy Malibu, for example). if you're going to do that, don't forget collector BMWs and Mercedes, which also fetch high numbers

I would say that your question is a loaded rhetorical. Cars are cars. Some are lemons. I would say that there was a surge of quality for a while about 13 years ago when the japanese car makers were making superior products but nowadays I don't think there is a great deal of difference.

I like Hondas. so sue me.

[ceile]

55. My first car was an 82 Civic

Bought in 1992 with 95K miles on it. I drove that car until 1999. Back and forth to Houston every weekend my freshman year of college. Not sure how many miles it had at the end (odometer was out for a few months before I could get it fixed), but I'm guessing 165K. I firmly believe that I would still have that car today if I'd actually taken care of it. I miss that car. I think I only had the oil changed three times in the years I owned it....

[Skidmore]

56. I only recently gave up aToyota Corolla which I purchased new

in 1987. I drove that car many miles and it was the third Corolla I had owned. Don't even get me started on my experience with American made cars as a young driver owning a Pontiac Phoenix. Piece of crap car that I was ready to burn if I couldn't sell it for scrap to get a little money to purchase my Corolla. I have also owned cars made by Dodge, which were not bad. My own opinion is that there is not a whole lot of difference in the quality of cars across brands these days and just as many foreign brand cars come off the same assembly lines as the American brands. Just because it's made here doesn't mean that quality is there--the same urge to cut corners and improve profit margins exists everywhere and is acted on.

[Bill McBlueState]

59. have you considered all forms of observer bias?

I certainly wouldn't be comfortable making definitive statements about the age and manufacturer distribution of cars on the road based on nothing more than personal observation.

[Robb]

60. ...

[Orsino]

64. Because fewer Japanese cars were sold in the US back then.

Not complicated.

[TheCowsCameHome]

71. Ding,Ding!

No more calls please, we have a winner.

[kestrel91316]

65. My Chevy Citation was a junk heap after only 6 years of moderate driving.

My 1988 Honda Accord lasted 22 years before it got stolen.

Please explain to me again why I should buy American and not Japanese cars?

BTW, Ford Focus is supposedly a great little car and so it's on my list for consideration, but NOT BECAUSE IT'S AMERICAN. Because it's well-made, period.

[Mopar151]

161. Your Citation was junk the day it left the dealer

Sorry to say - Like the Vega, and the Chevette. GM does too much testing on its customers, and tries way too hard to cut production costs. When they get a car into it's 3rd generation design, it's pretty good.

[tekisui]

67. I drive a 1977 Toyota pick-up. It runs like a champ.

[TheCowsCameHome]

75. Remember the old jokes about Vegas and Dusters rusting on the showroom floor?

One joke I recall was about the salesman that scolded a customer for resting his hand on the fender of a Duster while negotiating a sale.
:rofl:
Those were the days.

[NoGOPZone]

80. The Duster's replacement, the Aspen, was also a notorious ruster

On the positive side, the slant 6 engine both used was tough as nails

[TheCowsCameHome]

117. Oh man, those slant 6's were bullet-proof.

I remember we had a taxi fleet in our town that beat those engines like rented mules.

[leveymg]

81. Plymouth Dusters were great cars!

We had one for 8 years. Slant-six, auto. Cost $2400 new in '71. It got 24 mpg, did 115 mph. Never had any mechanical problems. Carried six stoned teenagers in reasonably comfort and safety. What more could you ask from a car?

P.S. - after nearly a decade of Connecticut winters, only a little rust behind the rear wheels. But, every car rusted in the rear quarter panels back then.

[Codeine]

133. I had a 1972 Plymouth Duster.

Insane speed and power in a straight line -- god forbid you had to turn! :rofl: Loved that car even after it had been wrecked a few times and the reverse gear had gone out.

[leveymg]

144. Yours must've had a 340

The 225 cid (3.8 liter) Slant-6 hardly had insane power. It was adequate, but not a drag racer. I had the car around Lime Rock for a few laps in an informal road race with, of all things, a Toyota Corolla SR-5. A fairly even match on a tight track. The handling of the Plymouth wasn't really that awful on a road course. Understeered, but very predictable and stable in transient maneuvers. I never spun it or ran out of road. It actually was surprisingly quick and safe in the rain and snow - drove it 100 mph on the New York State Thruway early one Sunday morning in about an inch of snow. The car tracked completely straight - it was like flying just above the road.

(The really amazing thing is that I survived my teens. O8) Particularly in the '67 Mustang, which I bought with my own hard-earned mullah. :evilgrin: The Duster was the family hack.)

The 340 V-8 version of the Duster was a lot more nose-heavy (and fuel thirsty), but it had real balls. One of them blew away my 289 Ford small block in the straight line, but didn't corner as well. MOPAR made some nice cars in the early 70s - the 340 Duster is underappreciated American muscle. The 6 cylinder version was simply good, durable, economical transportation. A classic in its own right. Too bad Chrysler Corp. seemed to forget how to make basic cars.

[Mopar151]

163. Chrysler kept making the same mistakes

And kept making good engines & transmissions! I've raced a 340 for a long time - currently an ex-NASCAR North "W-2" engine. The big-blocks were fuel hogs, but torque monsters - I drove an old 440 cop car once, and the acceleration and top end was just insane! The 2.2 Ommni and variants were pretty good cars - my friends raced then for a decade, though they had head gaskets down to 3 hours and a case of beer... And they only quit buildin' Neons 'cuz Daimiler thought they were undignified.
Crummy alternators, noisy starters, fall-apart dashes, factory anti=freeze that would rust the barrel it came in, rump-sprung seats, and crappy gas mileage - these are NOT my favorite things.....

[RobinA]

173. My Duster

was my college car, a job for which it was well suited. Total vinyl interior so that when my passenger dropped an open can of beer on the floor and picked it up upside down, no damage was done. It dried nicely in a few days leaving only a yeasty smell behind. Huge ash tray. Lousy in snow, but pushable when stuck, reliable even when neglected. Would tolerate very little oil if required to. Didn't like that time it was asked to function with a dry radiator, but no harm was done once water was added. It had a good two inches of play in the steering wheel, but nothing a driver couldn't get used to. The front end would shimmy if asked to go over 60 mph, but the speed limit was 55 then and the shimmy just served to keep the young, inexperienced driver safe when driving across the state to school.

[DainBramaged]

83. I gave away my 95 Cavalier last month with 236000 miles on it

original engine, NO rust, 25 MPG every tank of gas. In the past year I put $300 into it for a rebuilt AC compressor and used chromed wheels. Oh, and it passed inspection in November. I bought a Cobalt SS.



Anyone who says American cars don't last needs to rethink their spiel.

[TheCowsCameHome]

119. Junked my mother's '87 Cavalier last month, 78K, and holes the size of

grapefruit all over the body. We teased her about never having to sweat getting locked out, you could reach inside from almost anywhere.

I was afraid the ramp truck would rip the front off winching it up.

[spanone]

88. i've had great luck with toyotas, hondas, mercedes and less luck with chrysler, chevrolet

you tell me?

[ellenfl]

89. i drive a '95 camry v6 le that's in primo shape.

i was involved in an accident a few years ago and the car protected me like a tank. very little damage even though i rear-ended a toyota that cut me off on a rain-slicked road.

ellen fl

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. I drove my 83 Honda for 15 years. Hubby is driving a 93

If you were here you'd see these foreign cars on the roads.

[RedstDem]

102. I notice the same thing

I got a Jeep Cherokee from 1992 that refuses to stop, it thrives on neglect.
I'm gonna get another when it dies, but it will have to be the wrangler..

my buddy at work got a new Nissan, its been back to the shop 8-10 times last year..lol, poor bastard,
he bought into the whole US brands are crap meme just like the younger generation..

[One_Life_To_Give]

104. 70's Imports had Rust issues

Whenever I think of an old CVCC, Civic etc. Rusted tops of the front fenders comes to mind. Truth is many of the japanese imports of that period did not stand up to Rusting at least here in New England. Difference is their manufacturers have responded to the issue. Unfortunately while my 2000 Silverado is much improved over it's 1970's counterpart. It still is showing way more body rust than my 97 Accord.

[ecstatic]

107. Don't know... but most people cringe at the thought of driving a car that old

So I'm not sure that it matters... :shrug:

[Hekate]

111. Our Toyota Tercel lasted 24 years. Our Camry is 21 years old. Our Honda Accord is almost 3 y.o. ...

Strange, but when we needed to replace the Tercel, it was a tossup among 3 brands: another Toyota, the Accord, and I now forget the other, but my extensive research and Consumer Reports told me they were equivalent. I went for one final test drive and put my foot down (hubby can delay forever) -- and took the Accord.

Damn, that was lucky.

We buy cars new very seldom, and keep them forever. This Accord may be my "last" car, as I am now 62, and if it lasts 24 years I'll be (do the math).

Toyota was a very good choice for us for a lot of years. I bought that Tercel when I was a single mom, doing my research not just at the car lot but at Consumer Reports. Again, it was a tossup -- there was actually a car I liked better, but the dealer lied to me and I walked.

I know SOME American cars were built like tanks, long before the excessively large SUVs came along. They were engineered to last, be easy to maintain, had good engines -- but they were gas guzzlers, and they were NOT the majority. The majority of 25 - 30 - 40 y.o. American cars are NOT still on the road in this country, as far as I can tell.

For way too many decades American cars were engineered not only to be gas guzzlers but for planned obsolescence. Screw that. I have other ways to spend my money.

Now Toyota has betrayed the public by behaving like an American corporation -- if our American Toyota CEOs had any sense of honor in the old Japanese style, some of them would have committed hara kiri by now; but American CEOs have no sense of honor.

Hekate

[DainBramaged]

113. So now that American cars are on a par with the vaunted japanese, you'll still buy japanese?

The UAW thanks you for your concern for the American auto industry.

[emilyg]

120. When I used to

buy chevy or ford - they spent more time being repaired than driven.

[DainBramaged]

123. Then and now.......

And with all of the problems inherent with Toyotas now I assume you'll continue buying them....

[emilyg]

125. My Camry should be good

for another 10 years - unless it goes crazy on me.

[Kalyke]

191. It will... it will.

[Hekate]

137. Dain, I did say that the Accord is likely to be my last car, given my age and how long we keep them.

Okay with you if I drive it till the wheels fall off when I'm in my eighties?

Hekate

[Statistical]

138. Not good enough. It is your fault if you don't live long enough to buy another UAW vehicle.

You exist for no purpose but to buy Union goods even if you don't like them, they are inferior, or they aren't what you need.

Even death is no excuse.

[DainBramaged]

145. I hope I am right there next to you, shotgun....

:hug:

[Hekate]

149. ~*~

:thumbsup: :hug:

[Mopar151]

165. Every Accord in the world is built in Marysville, OHIO n/t

[Touchdown]

172. That the same UAW that builds Mazdas in Flat Rock Mi?

:shrug:

[LWolf]

198. +1

[Urban Prairie]

114. Obviously most people here are attaching emotion to the vehicles that they

have owned or are owning, unlike their other mechanical possessions. Fact is the Chinese and Japanese governments have always supported their manufacturers, but in the US, it is socialism to do so, even if it is only supposed to a LOAN!!!

People here forget about all of the TAX BREAKS and long-term incentives that the Japanese vehicle manufacturers get to build and locate plants in certain US states.

Made by American workers indeed!!


Just wait until the Chinese/Indians begin importing their vehicles in the US, their market share will inevitably balloon due to the much lower prices of their vehicles, albeit cheaply made, but they will be affordable to the credit crunched middle and lower classes. The Japanese US market share will plummet, so they will call sayonara to the US and shutter their factories here.

[1awake]

116. My grandfather, then father all worked in steel mills,

And it was considered almost an unforgivable offense to buy a foreign car. Regardless if their was a tie between American auto's and American Steel mills or not.. that's how it was in my house growing up, and most everyone else I knew. Beyond that, I grew up seeing nothing but rust covered foreign cars; all that I happened to see.

To date, I have never owned a foreign car. Partly because I think my grandfather would come back to life and kick my ass, but mainly I never found a reason to. I have owned a Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, and Buick in my time, and had no problems with any of them. Most trusted was my Chevy s-10. My favorite was my 1997 Mustang convertable (which I had to trade in once kids started coming).

Now I'm not against people buying what they want, nor preferring foreign cars, but I must admit I do not understand how people can by Toyota with their practices and comments towards American workers etc. I won't fault you.. just don't understand it.

[Urban Prairie]

131. They need to take a look at how Japanese autoworkers are treated in Japan

Low wage temps: a full one-third, or 10,000 Toyota assembly line workers, are low wage temp and subcontract workers who earn less than 60 percent of what full time workers do. Temps have few rights and are hired under contracts as short as four months.


Overworked to death: Mr Kenichi Uchino died of overwork at Toyota’s Prius plant when he was just 30. He was routinely working 14-hour shifts and putting in anywhere from 107 to 155 hours of overtime a month—at least 61 ½ hours of which were unpaid. Toyota said the hours were “voluntary” and therefore not paid. Mr. Uchino left behind his young wife, a one-year-old son and a three-year-old daughter. The Japanese people even have a word for being overworked to death: “karoshi.” An estimated 200 to 300 workers a year suffer serious illness, depression and death due to overwork.


Sweatshops and human trafficking: Toyota’s parts supply chain is riddled with sweatshop abuse, including the human trafficking of tens of thousands of foreign guest workers—mostly from China and Vietnam—to Japan, where they are stripped of their passports and forced to work grueling hours seven days a week, often earning less than half the legal minimum wage. Sixteen-hour shifts, from 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 midnight are common.


Linked to Burmese Dictators: Toyota—through the Toyota Tsusho Corporation which is part of the Toyota Group—is involved in several joint business ventures with the ruthless military dictators of Burma, which put revenues into the pockets of the dictators who use it to repress Burma’s 50 million people.


Toyota criticized by the ILO: The UN/International Labor Organization points to Toyota’s suppression of freedom of association at its plant in the Philippines as “an illustration of how a multinational company, apparently with little regard for corporate responsibility, has done everything in its power to prevent recognition and certification of the Toyota Motor Company Workers Association.” (ILO Working Group, December 2003.)

Toyota leads the Race to the Bottom: Toyota, now the largest auto company in the world, is using its size and success to impose its two-tier, low-wage model at its non-union plants across America, which will result in a race to the bottom with wages and benefits being slashed throughout the entire auto industry.





The Toyota You Don’t Know

But most won't bother...

[c brand]

146. Toyota employees in US plants collected full pay during layoffs

last year and earlier this year

[tranche]

122. 70's and 80's Japanese vehicles weren't top level quality.

Will you be asking where the Pontiac Aztecs are 20 years from now?

[DainBramaged]

124. They'll still be on the road, becoming a 'cult' car now

20 years from now most of the people here who support japan will be wondering where the jobs went....

[Statistical]

126. No they won't.

They went to the South East.

[Urban Prairie]

127. USA: Land of the disposables

Ministry - Over The Shoulder



Big size, small size,
any size, round and round
We need, we take, then
burn it all to the ground
Started over and learned to walk
We teach you how to talk
Please try and understand
We're helping all mankind

We use them a while then it's over the shoulder
We use them a while then it's over the shoulder

We are serious
Oh, so serious
Dollar here, dollar there
Dollars flying everywhere
We're only here to please
Stop the killing, trust me
We'll only be a while
Big while, big big smile

We use them a while then it's over the shoulder
We use them a while then it's over the shoulder

We have in our hands,
every woman and every man
Things are gonna go far,
driving a real big fast car,
and what you see is what you get
Keep 'em hungry, you bet!!
You need security,
to keep you from the enemy

We use them a while then it's over the shoulder
We use them a while then it's over the shoulder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4DNb4nDfiM

[Romulox]

128. It's simple: the bodies on these cars can't survive road salt. See e.g. the Toyota Tundra.

:hi:

[JVS]

130. You're comparing across classes. A Cutlass supreme is not what the Civics were in competition with.

The Chevette was what GM was selling in the economy class, and you don't see any of those cruising around.

[taught_me_patience]

132. I have a Honda now but I'll consider a Ford for my next car

I like to make apples to apples comparisons. My next car will either be a camry, accord, or fusion... all very similar cars.

[Statistical]

136. I am interested in Chevy Volt but will want the 3rd or 4th model year to get some reliability data.

[Romulox]

139. Toyota's new "mea culpa" ads say they've been in this country for 50 years

Seen many 1960 circa Toyotas lately? :wtf:

[DainBramaged]

142. No but there are LOTS of 1960 Chevys around

[NNN0LHI]

148. About 99% of it is how well the owner takes care of them ... or not

And at the price of cars I take care of mine. Something breaks I get it fixed.

I recently drove two nearly identical late model Mercury Milans. Roughly the same mileage. Same year. Same options. Even the same color.

One was like driving a new car. The other was like driving an old junk.

Lot of variables. A woman driver is generally much easier on a car than a man. Some people keep their cars in a heated garage which helps extend the life considerably. Some keep them well maintained.

Its how you take care of them mostly. Or not.

Thats been my experience anyway.

Don

[c brand]

150. The FDA-approved diabetes drug Avandia is currently responsible for 500 heart attacks and 300 cases

of heart failure each month.

[DainBramaged]

153. And what's your point? Do you think that you're going to change anyone's mind?

You're late to the game pal, and you can't stop the flood of reality as to how your company fucked over the American people for profit.


There are other message boards that would love to hear your crap.

[RobinA]

174. I Test Drove

an Avandia, but it was too small and wouldn't start. Or is your point that the Avandia is a Japanese product?

[KillCapitalism]

151. My vehicle history

I'm 34, but have over 1,000,000 miles of driving experience under my belt & I'll post the vehicles I've owned in the past.

1986 Nissan 300ZX - Bought used, engine crapped out at 315,000 miles
1997 Chevy Cavalier Z24 - Bought new, transmission crapped out at 212,000 miles.
2001 Nissan Sentra - Bought new, was rattled apart by midwest roads (whole suspension shot) at 225,000 miles
2005 Dodge Neon SRT-4 - Same problem as above car, hit a massive moon crater in the road which blew all 4 tires and shattered all 4 rims, car was fixed, but just never the same again, sold at 176,000 miles.
2008 Mazda3 - Still have it, running great at 48,000 miles.

So in my experience imports and domestics have treated me fairly well. Either I got lucky with each car, or it had something to do with meticulous maintenance on all of them. Some of these cars I was driving 8,000 miles a month. The problem here in the midwest with the nasty freeze/thaw cycles on the road is that the terrible roads will usually do your car in before the engine or tranny gives out. Can't wait to move to Florida where this is not a problem.

[deaniac21]

154. They are hiding. Waiting to attack.

[hunter]

156. I hate cars.

My stupid cars, foreign and domestic, don't die just to spite me.

Or maybe it's me keeping them alive because I never want to buy another fucking car so long as I live. Every tick of the odometer is time I've wasted. Hundreds of thousands of miles, endless hours of my life wasted in a cramped metal hell.

If giant metal robots invaded from space and ate all the cars on earth it would make me happy.

[madville]

157. Funny how the situation flip flops depending on the timeframe

The domestics went way downhill in the 90's. For every one Chevy, Ford, Dodge, etc you see built from 1990-1999, you see about 10 from Honda, Toyota, or Nissan still rolling around. I'm referring to the passenger car market, the Cavalier and Escort were junk compared to the Civic and Corolla of the day. Same thing for the Taurus/Lumina vs. Camry/Accord or whatever match up you want.

It's nice to see some of the domestics turn it around in recent years. Ford especially has pulled even with the foreign cars. Chrysler's reliability is still perpetually in the crapper as always and it seems the Chevrolet brand has improved somewhat.

[Statistical]

162. Ford is the clear leader among the three.

GM will survive simply because the sheer size of government investment. GM demise would mean the bailouts were "bad idea". So even if it means loan guarantees, or access to low cost capital, or special deals GM will survive.

Chrysler is neither too big to fail, nor is is particularly spectacular. It may not survive the next decade.

Ford IMHO is firing on all cylinders. If they keep focusing on "green" cars people like to drive and maybe come out with the EV focus they will likely gain marketshare. That is even before the Toyota news.

[ingac70]

171. The only thing that brought Ford down was that tire recall.

Ford made the most profit of any car company throughout the 90s.

[DainBramaged]

175. Totally wrong, but that's OK. The number of Domestics from the 90's

still registered outnumbers Foreign. And that's a fact. Unless you're from California. ANY Rust belt or Mortheastern State kills cars with salt on the road, and the Foreign iron doesn't stand up.

[SmileyRose]

181. 90's Taurus was winning awards hand over fist and selling like hotcakes

2 plants were working 2 10hr/6day shifts at 70+ cars an hour and could hardly keep up with demand for Taurus. Ford stopped giving it any REAL updates in 1995 and focused on the Explorer instead.

And junk or not - I see a lot of 1990's Escorts around here. I'm beginning to see more and more Civics and Corollas from the 90's. The kids are buying them to "pimp" them out.

[REP]

158. Because Nissan used to be badged DATSUN

Ever heard of the Z? It's been around for a while...

[DainBramaged]

176. See lots of them on Nick repeats.

[RobinA]

164. Your Are Kidding, Right?

What's wrong with this picture is that you are comparing a car with 84,000 miles to one with 201,000

[DainBramaged]

177. You missed the point, but that's ok.

[Touchdown]

167. I know you ignore me because your an Apple hater and like foreign computers

I guess you never heard of this little car.

http://www.classiczcars.com/photopost/

[johnaries]

169. Several reasons. First of all, you're prejudiced because all you notice

are the old "classic American" cars.

Further, people tend to "restore" old American cars because of childhood memories. More Americans are willing to put in the work necessary to restore the "classic" cars because it is a sense of pride to them. It doesn't mean the cars themselves are "better", just that people are more willing to put the time and attention needed to keep them running.

Finally, and this is something people don't like to talk about, but the philosophy of car building has changed. If you look carefully at the "classic" cars you mention, there is a large gap. You will find very few American cars on the road that were built after the concept of "built-in obsolescence" was introduced.

How many 1980's American cars do you see? How many 1990's American cars? Yet I see lots of Japanese clunkers still chugging along from those years. Maybe you don't see them, but that's probably because yo don't recognize the year or you just ignore them completely.

In the past 20 years, I've owned several Japanese cars and 1 American car. I bought the American car because I thought they finally "learned their lesson" and started building good cars again like they used to. I was wrong.

I'm hoping that the latest crisis has been a wake-up call for American car companies. This is not a "Union" thing, because most Japanese cars are built in the US by US workers.

Actually, if you study the history of Japanese auto-making you will find that it was Americans that taught them how to build better cars. American car-maker fat-cats just didn't want to listen. They just wanted a quick profit.

Sound familiar?

[DainBramaged]

179. I notice way more than the American classics, it's my job

And you're right, people don't have a sense of pride when it comes to old japanese cars.


Your wake up call needs a sledge hammer. Your perception is typical of Foreign owners on this board, but that's OK. The Domestic auto industry thanks you for your support (LOLOLOLOL).

[Lerkfish]

200. If you could, reread your post here, dain

then imagine someone else had posted it to you.

[Mopar151]

170. A lot of it comes down to "carachter"

People want a car that reflects their self-image - but self-perception is a tricky lens. Datsun 510 owners are up there with Chevy II loyalists in terms of devotion, for instance.
The thing is, there seem to be some cars which appeal to certain market segments because they don't like cars all that much. Older Subarus and Camrys definitely fall into this category, as do Chrysler minivans and the old K-cars. They want reliability, and they need the acknowledgement of Consumer Reports, or another non-car-nut source. Performance issues, like braking, handling, and durability at high power levels are a long way down the list of their priorities.
On the other hand, many of the "carachter" cars have spawned aftermarkets full of solutions for their original shortcomings. Some can now be completely built of aftermarket replacement or upgrade parts, and many newer upgrades retrofit back for decades. and there is an evolution of sorts at work - the nice, most desirable ones continue to be well-kept, and fixed, upgraded, or modified. The average '57 Chevy or "B" Mack of today is considerably better than the average when new!



http://image.superchevy.com/f/17632032+w750+st0/sucp_0904_01_z+1957_chevy_nomad+front_view.jpg

[DainBramaged]

180. But not the japanese cars, which lacked character from day one

scrap or parts, that's all they re worth. and NOPI be damned, finding suitable cars for rebuilding is no comparison to American iron.


http://nopi.com/

[Mopar151]

182. Well, I know some Datsun 510 fanatics - for good reason

And Datsun roadsters are what MG's wish they were. There are some fast, good looking Hondas - but the ratio of nice Hondas to wannabe shitboxes is about 1/100. The Subaru STI and WRX models are pretty neat, especially when done up for club racing. But these are exceptions to the teeming masses of bland, anonymous Asian cars.

[DainBramaged]

183. the ratio of nice japanese cars to wannabe shitboxes is about 1/1000000

One question and one question only;

How many japanese cars race on either Pinks all out or at any NHRA national event?



I rest my case.


http://www.speedtv.com/programs/pinks-all-out/pinks-events-schedule/

[Mopar151]

187. Most of my friends are SCCA roadracers or hillclimbers

There is more to life than drag racing... I would not be surprised if the 510 has a bigger following in the US than overseas. But - I agree with you about the gangsta wannabees that plauge the "import drag" scene, and give all of us in the hobby a black eye with stupid street racing.
IIRC, this crowd was bounced out of Carlisle, PA, with a comment "They want to drink, and then they want to fight, but they ain't no good at either one!"

[DainBramaged]

190. Of course there is more to life (racing) than drag racing

but japanese iron isn't suitable for any of it.

[Mopar151]

192. Actually, their iron is quite good

The sheet steel and copper, not so much.

[DainBramaged]

193. Their iron is ours, that's why it's good.......

But it's a major part of their problem. Recycled steel. They are required by US law to use X percentage in manufacturing. Domestics use it in rear axle housings and brake rotors (hence the constant problem of roto wear), the japanese use it to excess in truck frames and engine blocks (they ain't all aluminum).

[Mopar151]

195. Correct in concept, details not so much

Brake rotors are actually very good iron generally. The problem is that the particular alloys, carbon content, %slag, etc that resist corrosion better are full of hard spots, which help the rotor crack and warp - at least that is what a GM metallurgist told me.
Steel is the most recycled material on the planet - the problems are not in the use of recycled material, but in the quality of it's refining and finishing. Hot rolled material ends up with a layer of slag and corrosion on it right from the start, while cold rolling removes that layer from the billet or casting strip.
The real difference in Japanese and American cars is in coatings, paint, and design. Those rotten Tacoma frames are made in the US - but they are a box shape without adequate drainage or internal coating, and a big lap seam on the bottom side for the rust to start in. Rust goes much faster with a little moisture - especially with an electrolyte like salt in the water - trapped in a confined space, or kept wet by mud or wheel spray. The Yankee standby of yearly oil undercoating works so well because it displaces water and protects the metal from exposure to water.
American car makers pay a lot more attention to things like 2-side galvanized steel, wheel blast protection, and the like - and full body electrocoating, so that there is anticorrosive primer in every nook and cranny. And heat accelerates corrosion - part of the problem with brake rotors! Paint is a whole other can of worms. We've been trying to get nasty solvents out of paint for 40 years or so, as well as lead, arsenic, and cyanide. We've gotten the waterborne stuff to where it's pretty good, but it's harder to make it stick without the agressive solvent to cut through oil and other contaminants.
I'm betting that nice old Cavalier of yours was'nt all dinged up, and got waxed once in a while - paint chips to bare metal, which are not sealed by wax, allow the corrosion to get under the paint - viola` - rust hole!

[DainBramaged]

196. Sorry about your concept, I know for a fact about the content in our brake rotors

and rear ends, and it's been that way for over a decade. Most of the time they need replacing because the centers rust out and they no longer can support the pressure of the pads causing them to warp. And my little cabbage (purple she was) didn't have a spot of rust but the paint was fading.


My new flame is getting drilled and slotted zinc-plated rotors next week as a matter of fact...............


:hi:

[Mopar151]

202. Recycled Iron has a bad reputation - undeserved

It has to do with how much refining it gets, with flux and gases. Most Pre-1930 steel is crap, because it has so much crap in it - it will get "intergranular corrosion", like some aluminium plate is prone to.
Early '70's 3/4 and 1 ton trucks are very prone to rotor collapse (I've had 2 while driving!). When I worked for a manufacturer of metal spraying equipment, I used to spray the inner surfaces of vented rotors with aluminium. I tried to sell the process to a GM metallurgist, and he copped to the alloy change, right around the time brake rotors got to be prone to hard spots. They may have been changing to a higher silicon content in the iron - Silicon, like GM, is nuthin if it ain't cheap.
Part of the deal with castings, is that one way to make them ductile is to leave some slag in the ladle (that's what makes "wrought iron"), or to burn enough carbon out of the ladle to make it, technically, cast steel. It does not matter if some rust (iron oxide) gets in with the scrap - when found in nature, it's called iron ore! My buddy with a scrapyard is paid a serious premium for brake rotors.

Gray iron is what Wilwood makes really good brake rotors from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_iron
More on cast iron here :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron
and still more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meehanite

[beam me up scottie]

178. Bf drives a 91 Tercel with 319,000 miles on it.

It's our regular means of transport even though we both have newer domestic vehicles.

ymmv

[LWolf]

197. My '79 Toyota truck was still running great in 1999

when my bone-headed youngest son ran it into the side of a mountain and bent the frame. It had 365K original miles. We pulled the engine for my BIL, who still uses it to run equipment at his home-based shop today. The rest we sold for parts.

It survived a decade as a construction truck, hauling things it was never designed for; then it did another 5 years doing long daily commutes, and passed on to 3 years of abuse from my oldest son, who then passed it on to the younger, who it served faithfully for 2 years before he ran it into said mountain.

It was so faithful that I bought another in '94, (turning the old one over to my high-school age son,) drove it a decade, and turned IT over to the bonehead, who had finally grown up. It has somewhere around 225K miles, and is still running great. I gave it a tune-up, new brakes, and new hoses and belts at 150K. I think the bonehead had some work done to the radiator and timing chain last year.

I'm very happy with my '04, which has, unsurprisingly, been trouble-free for the first 6 years and 60K.

It's a good thing, since I may not be able to buy another vehicle in this lifetime, the way the economy and my finances are going.

[onenote]

201. non scientific survey results

So on a lark, I went to my local newspaper's classified section (on line) and did a search for used vehicle from between 1970 and 1990.



I found that virtually all of the domestic vehicles from that era for sale were either SUVs, pickups, or vans or were "classic" cars like the Corvette, the Camaro, Mustang or the Dodge Challeger. The situation wasn't that much different for Japanese cars -- the only Datsuns were 280Z's and the Mazdas included a miata and a RX-7.

But when I narrowed the search to basic sedans -- y'know, accords, camrys, taurus, fairmont, etc., I found that the domestic cars had nothing on the Japanese. Specifically, searching Chevy's I found 1 Nova, 1 Caprice, 1 Malibu.
Searching Toyota: 4 Corollas, 2 Camrys, 1 Celica, 1 Supra.
Given that there were more Chevy's being sold in the 1970s and 1980s than Toyotas, it would seem that the Japanese cars are holding their own.