How can you go 100 mph even in neutral?

[Chemisse]

WASHINGTON -- Rhonda Smith's story of six miles of interstate terror, as her Lexus suddenly zoomed to 100 miles per hour, will set the mood Tuesday for the first congressional hearing on Toyota's acceleration problems.

The Sevierville, Tenn., woman shifted to neutral. She tried to throw the car into reverse. She hit the emergency brake. Nothing. Then, her Toyota-made car miraculously slowed down before she crashed.

http://www.wmur.com/automotive/22640948/detail.html


I am wondering how this is even possible? How could she have continued to zoom out of control even after putting the car in neutral?

[SmileyRose]

1. The whole gas pedal thing is a ruse IMHO

Other manufacturers are using the same equipment, made at the same supplier, and not having this problem. It isn't the floor mats, it isn't the pedal. Most everyone is pretty sure it's either the electronics or the software. If her car continued to accelerate while in neutral, then either her shifting system was also not working properly, or else the computer in the car went haywire.

[Chemisse]

4. Indeed. I think they are using it to buy time and/or placate the masses.

[madokie]

9. Something tell me that the gear shifting is controlled by the computer too

and if thats the case someone needs to be tried for murder, simple as that.

[Raspberry]

2. According to Rep. Stupak

the electrical system was faulty. (That's in the article.)

I saw a story on a similar case involving a Lexus, in which four people died. If I recall correctly, the driver was a retired state trooper. I'm sure he tried everything he knew, and nothing worked.

[Chemisse]

5. That's what I keep wondering about

Until that mystery is solved, Toyotas will continue to pose a risk, in my opinion.

[seabeyond]

15. i wont forget that story. or the number of duers yelling idiot, put in neutral

acting like he deserved to die for being so stupid. that thread about disgusted me.

[Chemisse]

3. In this ABC news simulation

He shifted into neutral and it took care of the problem. They were triggering the runaway car with a single electronic short circuit.


http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio

Another thread here at DU cites someone as suggesting "at full engine power, putting the car into neutral takes far more effort than normal"


I guess I am still trying to figure out how that poor CHP officer and his family died in California. I cannot fathom an experienced driver like that guy not trying to put it in neutral. It's pretty obvious and fairly reflexive for those of us who have driven for many years.

[elocs]

6. I wondered that myself since the guy appeared to be totally helpless.

I could understand how someone else would panic, but not a CHP officer. I would think that putting it into neutral would work or even dropping it into 2nd or 1st would slow the car down. I drive a Scion, made by Toyota, and I would drop it into neutral in a heartbeat under those circumstances.

[madokie]

11. If it is a standard transmission it is

but with an automatic when you shift it you are only shifting a valve and that shifting effort won't change but with a standard you are moving the actual gears and when under load they don't move very easy. In a standard you push in the clutch to take the load off the gears then shift, (move) them or just hold the clutch pedal to the floor to disconnect the engine from the transmission.

[trotsky]

7. Some of the affected Lexus models have a complicated shifting mechanism.

It isn't just a series of stops on a line from P to the lower gears; you've got a middle stage where you can control the shifting up and down manually without having to engage a clutch yourself. Perhaps her Lexus had something like that, in which case "neutral" could be a little confusing.

But once again I find it fascinating that you blame the victim. Definite pattern.

[tech9413]

8. One more reason I'm happy with my 98 manual everything

The last time I bought anything that had an "automatic" feature was 77. That automatic was the transmission and it failed 1K out of warranty. I might get pissed pulling the door apart to crank up my window or having to touch buttons to change the radio, but I know they won't likely kill me.

[Barack_America]

10. When this happened to me in my Dodge Neon many years ago....

...I believe the problem ended up being whatever regulated the amount of gas flooding into the engine getting stuck into an open mode.

However, my problem was different; my car simply refused to decelerate, it did not accelerate past where I had taken it.

[madokie]

12. That would have simply been a stuck throttle

whether at the pedal end, the mechanism between the two, or at the throttle body is anyones guess now though

[Barack_America]

14. I think it was the throttle body.

It got stuck at 70 mph on a freeway that ended into a downtown street in less than a mile.

Scariest experience of my life. I never did drive that car again.

[revolution breeze]

17. 1995 Neon here!

I had just picked up my wedding dress and was coming home when the car would not decelerate. Thankfully we lived in "the country" at the time, I shifted into neutral and turned off the engine and stood on the brake. The whole time I was thinking "I did not spend all this money for a dress I am not going to wear." The tow truck pulled it to the dealership, they found nothing and it never happened again.

[Barack_America]

19. Yup. '95 Neon.

Glad you were okay too!

I did the same: neutral or parking brake (I can't remember which I decided on), stood on the brake and turned off the car. I was fortunate enough to be on a recessed expressway and coming up the ramp ate up a lot of speed as well. A country road would have been better though, for sure.

[WillieW]

13. This happened to me in my car - not a toyota.

It was scary not having control. Fortunately, only damage was done to my car (had to junk it) and three other cars. I am still mourning the loss of my beautiful car.

I was waiting for the parking ramp to open after taking my ticket. Then removed my foot from the brake. The car shot out like a rocket in a parking lot hitting three other cars. My mechanic could not find a problem and suggested that the floor mat was the cause.

[prole_for_peace]

16. I have read that the best way to overcome these acceleration problems

is not shifting to neutral or using the emergency brake but to use the foot brake. The braking system on a car is stronger than the acceleration system. The man being interviewed (some safety expert whose name I cannot remember) specifically said NOT TO use the emergency brake.

[Fumesucker]

21. The foot brake will stop the car if you get on it hard and fast..

But there are a couple of points to be made about that..

First, almost all cars with power brakes use engine vacuum to activate the power assist. At full throttle there is very little engine vacuum and the power assist may be minimal or entirely absent which will make it much harder to stop.

Second, brakes heat up as they are used, once they get beyond a certain temperature they lose effectiveness and it takes greater and greater pressure to make them stop you..

Most people are not going to get on the brakes hard enough and fast enough to stop the car before the brakes overheat, we just aren't used to operating a car that way.

[Statistical]

18. Traumatic event I doubt she has photographic memory of the event.

At some point the car was accelerating. = A
At some point she put car in neutral. = B

In her mind it was B before A but it could have been A before B.

In every car I have seen shifting to Netral brakes linkage between engine and wheels. So while the engine will be roaring (and if you are already going fast it may feel like you are still going faster) the engines power isn't being delivered to the wheels.

When people are in a traumatic event often details are obscured.

[Trillo]

20. So, we all know how computers are maliciously hacked at times,

Why not cars?

I've certainly read in past decades desires of U.S. police agencies to be able to remotely kill a vehicle in the event they need to stop it and the driver wants to high-speed escape. Whether any of that has been implemented in any of these *black boxes* we can only wonder, given such things as non-disclosure agreements and national security. Thus, the following is only a hypothetical.

IF there are such backdoor control systems, besides any deliberate shenanigans that might happen that could later be blamed on driver error, besides any accidental intrusions that might occur by the agencies that could have over-ride control over them, such systems could also be subject to malicious hacking by third parties who wish to remain undiscovered.

It may be that the safest route for manufacturers to follow would be to open-source all their design circuitry so that interested parties may examine it for flaws as well as suggest safer options. Otherwise, we, as humans, may be safer riding manually operated bicycles.

Since this latest Toyota issue, I'm so glad I still have a 1980s vehicle. Manual transmission. Cable operated clutch. While it's a 4-cyl, it doesn't get as much mileage as some of the newer cars, but at least, as a driver, I have the additional ability to inspect those systems and determine for myself whether they are operational, rather than believing some corporate types, or their employees, who may have too much money at stake to be honest.