Teacher Emphasizes Old-Fashioned Etiquette

[cali]

(Feb. 21) – In addition to the three R's, boys at one Arizona public high school have spent the past year learning to open doors for girls, pull out chairs for their female classmates and stand when a girl enters a room.

Incorporating etiquette lessons into the classroom was the brainchild of Cord Ivanyi, a Latin teacher at Gilbert Classical Academy, a public college prep school 30 miles east of Phoenix.

Male students in Cord Ivanyi's Latin class at Gilbert Classical Academy high school have learned such etiquette techniques as seating the girls at their desks.

"I teach old-fashioned subjects," Ivanyi told AOL News, "so I don't think I'm doing anyone a disservice by promoting old-fashioned traditions."

A teacher for 14 years, Ivanyi said he was inspired to start demonstrating what he considers proper etiquette after witnessing the coarse behavior that some of the boys in his classes displayed toward the girls.

"Boys treat girls pretty roughly," he said. "And there was so much disruption, so I decided to do something about it."

The informal lessons began with Ivanyi standing up one day after a girl in the class had left the room to go to the bathroom. As she returned, Ivanyi held open the door for her.

"She had this funny look on her face," Ivanyi recalled. "And the other kids giggled a little."

Soon, however, Ivanyi was schooling the 10th-grade boys on how to seat their female counterparts at their desks, by pulling out their chair and sliding it underneath them as they sat. As a show of respect, the boys were encouraged to stand any time a girl entered the room.


<snip>

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/arizona-teacher-adds-etiquette-to-lessons/19355240?icid=main|htmlws-main-w|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fnation%2Farticle%2Farizona-teacher-adds-etiquette-to-lessons%2F19355240

[msongs]

1. those poor helpless girls, no value at all without boys to cater to them lol nt

[roguevalley]

59. I taught courtesy too. I would not acknowledge a kid who didn't use

please or thank you. I watched the clock once and a boy spent ten minutes before he figured out he didn't ask properly for something I had on my desk. He never forgot to again.

You would be AMAZED how many kids have no manners.

[RainDog]

2. institutionalized sexism n/t

[WolverineDG]

40. that was fast

:eyes:



dg

[RainDog]

42. I really don't understand your comment

do you have a point to make, other than inserting an emoticon to indicate you seem to have a problem with those who do not support institutionalized sexism?

please, do tell.

[WolverineDG]

44. Courtesy & respect are not sexism nt

[RainDog]

45. exactly. so they shouldn't be taught in a sexist manner

which is what is happening here.

if you are unaware of the long line of thinking on the issue of paternalism and the ways women have been oppressed by the same attitudes, you might want to look into it.

for you to assume someone is "against" manners and courtesy because of the sexist crap this school is doing is sort of stupid. especially when I note, further down the thread, that my own sons are polite and were raised to be polite to others REGARDLESS of their gender.

what's sick is that you seem to equate sexism with courtesy.

[WolverineDG]

56. You're the one calling it sexist, not me

Sorry, but I refuse to fall into the "woman as perpetual victim" category of feminism, as do many other women I know. And we find those like you who look down on us (see your 2nd sentence) to be elitist & condescending.

Obviously, these boys weren't being taught manners at home, so what's wrong with a male role model demonstrating how they should behave?


dg

[RainDog]

61. lol

this sort of "training" DOES fall into the trap of "women as perpetual victim."

I am opposed to that attitude. It effects women in the workplace, in politics, in language... in the stories we tell to ourselves and others.

but you just turned that whole issue upside down.

there's a huge difference between teaching courtesy, manners, table manners, knowledge of ways in which behavior may be acceptable in one venue but not another...

and teaching boys to stand up when a girl enters the room because... why? why exactly? to put those females in an unwanted spotlight? to make their comings and goings something to be scrutinized rather than incorporated into, you know, reality.. where no one is going to stand up because the princess enters the room?

but nevermind.

[WolverineDG]

78. You read sexism into that because you see women as victims

who are too weak & stupid to think for themselves & must be protected (by self-appointed cops like you) from such dastardly behavior as a man holding a door open for her or standing when she leaves or enters a room.

I refuse to see myself & other women as being such a weak & stupid creatures as you want (or rather need) us to be. I doubt very seriously that any woman is going to keel over & die or lose self-esteem or whatever because some man opens a door or stands when she enters or exits a room.

I chose to see this as respectful behavior, which it is.

dg

[me b zola]

91. Bullshit

I can't speak for the poster that you are responding to, but I am offended by this and I do not view it as "vicitmhood". Rather, that bullshit that they are practicing in that classroom teaches girls that they are dependent upon men, that men should always be there to do things for them. :argh:

[WolverineDG]

98. It doesn't teach girls they are dependent on men

:eyes:


dg

[Maru Kitteh]

123. Those paternalistic rituals are exactly the opposite of respectful.

Born in the thankfully vanquished era of the Antebellum belle and the Victorian lady - placed in her invisible cage high atop her pedestal where she can't be expected to do too much - the poor dear - she's only a fragile and weak woman after all.

What a bunch of crap. That's not manners and it's certainly not respect.

Genuine manners are gender neutral.

[OregonBi]

129. Exactly!

If anyone (me) portrays Women as equal to men, we do NOT need the "poor me, I am the perpetual victim" bullshit hung around out neck!
I can do ANYTHING a man can do in the professional sectors usually better, in less time, and cheaper for the company. I can pee standing up too if needed. If someone opens the door for me, I see it as a courtesy and GET THE FUCK ON WITH MY LIFE! I have better things to do other than worry about some insecure male wannabe!
So, stuff that up your poor loser ideology and rotate on it!
If you want the Democratic party, Democrats in general, and the DemocraticUnderground.com to have more respect, then act as though you are worthy of it.

[OregonBi]

128. Last time I checked...

...you were late for work today.
Why?

[lib_wit_it]

74. "Elitist" and "condescending"? Really?! Really???!!! In what way?

[WolverineDG]

79. "if you are unaware of the long line of thinking on the issue of paternalism

and the ways women have been oppressed by the same attitudes, you might want to look into it"

So only you & those who think exactly like you (ie, hyperventilating over a class in manners) are aware of such things.

dg

[lib_wit_it]

89. Well, that's one hyperventilating, sensationalistic way to interpret what the poster was saying.

[RainDog]

90. lol!!!

because I note that my concerns are grounded in something rational, you take that to mean someone is elitist?

it's ELITIST to expect women and men to receive equal treatment?!?!?

first time I've heard that one.

others have articulated the problem of "the other" that is apparent in this sexist way of teaching respect for others.

this sort of teaching is doing a DISSERVICE to the females in the class.

[WolverineDG]

99. Equating courtesy & respect to sexism is not rational nt

[RainDog]

113. do you have a problem with comprehension?

or are you purposely misunderstanding the point?

in either case, you seem incapable of understanding issues that deal with larger societal issues and how to empower women.

I hope you don't have daughters. If you do, I truly feel sorry for them.

[Threedifferentones]

114. Please and thank you are good

Holding the door for other PEOPLE is nice.

Standing up when a woman walks by and holding doors only for women seems pretty sexist. Those traditions were most popular when women were publicly described as helpless and weak, and when women were not allowed to achieve in most fields.

Teaching kids to respect other people is cool, teaching kids that ladies should have their doors held open because they are sooooo much frailer than gentlemen is not so cool. It's hard to say just from the article just where the teacher stands on this, but I can see why people are beginning to bicker here.

[OregonBi]

127. Really? Common decency and good manners are bad?

I bet you are ugly.

Is it any fucking-wonder this web site and the Democratic party in general gets such a bad name from the MSM? YOUR comments give them plenty of ammo to demonize us all!

My partner holds the door open for me EVERY time and quite frankly, it neither diminishes my education, professional stature, nor values to society at all!!!
He even did this in Dubai where that type of behavior could cost your job!

Get with the times, be considerate, and be more tolerant of those that are respectful of others.

[seabeyond]

130. i bet you are ugly? then lecture on being respectful of others? wow. nt

[LWolf]

3. Must old fashioned etiquette automatically be sexist?

I don't stand for anyone to leave the room. I hold doors for other people of any sex, but have never waited around for someone to open or hold a door for me.

I fail to see the value.

To teach old fashioned etiquette like using "please" and "thank you," like saying nothing if you can't say something respectful, like leaving politics and religion out of social conversations, like waiting for one's turn in any situation, like abolishing name calling, bullying of any kind, and socially excluding some while including others....I'm up for that.

Although not all of those courtesies are "old fashioned."

[cali]

4. exactly. it's entirely possible to teach etiquette without embedding

sexism in it.

[shiriko32]

26. I completely agree!

I agree 100% with you. I hate it when people teach others to favor a sex and consider it correct! How do they not see the problems with what they teach? Teaching kids these things allows them to believe that respect should only be given to those of the opposite gender.

I also would hold doors to anyone no matter what their sex is. That idea doesn't even come up into my head. It's like thinking, "oh a man is coming, I won't hold the door" and, "oh a girl is coming, I have to hold the door!" It's so stupid. Society today is so messed up and they don't even realize it.

It's about the kindness of your heart towards others as a whole, not just towards one sex because the rules say so.

[surrealAmerican]

32. Welcome to DU.

I agree too. The kids ought to be taught to respect one another without the sexist subtext.

[AsahinaKimi]

70. Welcome to DU

And don't forget to come and visit the DU Lounge! :D

[JJM]

51. Must old fashioned Etiquette be automatically sexist

LWolf,
"Although not all of those courtesies are "old
fashioned."" 
I am in my late forties though look in my thirties. I have
taught my children the same thing and sad to say courtesy is
old fashioned. I work with a wide variety of people (over 300
at my job). The old guys (over 50) are always courteous with
the Good Morning, doors, etc.  The young (under 25) spanish
and black males are also very courteous. But the white guys
under 40 are all rude. As in literally knocking you out of the
way to get off the elevator...No clue that you hold the door
for someone carrying packages...or 2 feet behind you... Saying
Hello to someone who works in the same building (though not
specifically with you)...Waiting their turn at the copy
machine is a joke ... Dumping food in the communal kitchen
sink and cleaning their mess out of the drain is an unrealized
dream me and many of my female co-workers have. Likewise, the
40 and older white women seem to have this same rudeness. 
One of the idiot white women I work with actually said they do
hold the door because they do not wish to be considered
sexist. Give me a sexist instead of these rude j*****s and I
am carrying boxes, my hands are full and it is a pull door. My
mother, aunts and grandmother would have beat us children for
this type of behavior. I am happy to see someone teaching
courtesy as it is lacking in today's professional world. As my
dad used to say, being nice counts more than any college
degree. He was a doctor so probably knew what he was talking
about.     

[LWolf]

57. Being nice does count.

The point is that courtesy should be exercised by all, regardless of gender, age, or color, towards all, regardless of gender, age, or color.

[Dorian Gray]

96. That is true

I appreciate courtesy when shown by anybody. If someone holds the door open for me (whether it is a female or male), I am much appreciative. (I am female and 38.) I was taught to be courteous to others, so I appreciate it when people are such to me.

[PassingFair]

5. Yuk. I would object to this if it were happening in MY kid's public school.

It is fine for the teacher to set an example,
it is NOT fine for this type of arcane deference
to be REQUIRED.

Women need cooperation, not fake deference.

[Catshrink]

13. This is a charter school

it's near me. Arizona is very charter-friendly.

[stray cat]

6. I'm not against civility and repect - I prefer respect for women compared to locker room talk

however, I would not do it by pulling out chairs and standing for females.

[noamnety]

7. Ugh.

Like others here I would prefer that basic respect toward all people be taught, instead of paternalistic rituals.

[prairierose]

8. Yes, that is exactly what I was feeling but you expressed ...

it so well. Thank you for that.

[Gormy Cuss]

10. But that wouldn't be old-fashioned, would it?

Props to the teacher for wanting to instill etiquette. Knocks for doing it by using a wayback machine.

[Greybnk48]

11. LOL. Well put.

[Greybnk48]

9. Ahh, chivalry. Defined in part as "a willingness to help the weak."

Why can't we teach respect for one another without paternalism/ paternalistic rituals. I like it when someone holds a door for me, but I do it for others as well--when their hands are full, not as a sign of my superiority.

[w8liftinglady]

12. ok-maybe I'm old-fashioned

I've taught my sons to hold the door for older folks and women,people with their arms full,to offer their chair to a woman or elderly person,to allow people in front of them with fewer items,and to NOT use sexist terms regarding women.We have many elderly handicapped individuals in my apt-they help them carry in groceries,etc.Does that make me ageist/sexist?

[a la izquierda]

14. What you've taught your sons is very common in...

Latin America. When I'm on the bus or metro, men will usually get up and give me their seat (or any other women). Younger women occasionally offer their seats to the elderly, regardless of sex. I was lugging back a bunch of books and bags to my apartment, and a construction worker from next door helped me carry them around the corner.
I'm a progressive woman, but it's a pain in the ass to drag a bunch of crap around or stand for an hour on a packed metro when I've been hunched over in a stuffy library all day.

[w8liftinglady]

15. maybe because I was raised in an Italian household-very traditional.

[a la izquierda]

43. possible...

my mom's family is sicilian and apparently spanish (just found that out). my cousins are all like that.

[RainDog]

16. my sons and I also open doors for people

I taught them to treat the elderly with respect. my sons are very polite.

this is far different than having a classroom in which women are "put on a pedestal" in the Victorian sense - the point is that these polite actions are not limited to females.

I am a female and I help people ALL THE TIME.

I do not want a school to teach that it is males who perform while females receive politeness.

it's stupid.

[Book Lover]

95. Depends. What did you teach your daughters? (nm)

[madmom]

109. I have a son and a daughter, they were both taught the same. I think it's called respect. :)

[Tailormyst]

100. I have also taught my sons the same

They also use please and thank you and always ask before taking something. I think manners can take you far in the world.

[Maru Kitteh]

17. One can easily encourage respect and good manners WITHOUT sexism.

Teach the kids to open doors for each other.
Teach the kids to pull chairs out for each other.

It sound disruptive to me with large groups to have people standing every time a new person comes in, but if it is taught as a sign of respect, teach the kids to stand for each other.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

18. I believe in good manners and have taught my sons, but to me this is definitely

sexist.

[justanaverageguy]

107. It's really not or

I am the world's biggest sexist.

I have 2 sons. Why is it sexist to teach them the following?:

1. You (my son) and a woman are are approaching a door to enter a building. Manners and respect dictate that you should open the door and allow the woman to enter first. If it's you and your best buddy who is also a male, then whoever gets their first can open and enter, with the second person to follow.

2. You (again my son) are having dinner with your girlfriend's parents. Her mother comes to join you at the table where you are sitting. You stand and then sit as she is sitting. Optional if it is her father. If everyone is basically sitting at the same time, like being escorted to your table at a restaurant, then you do not sit until each woman has done so.

3. Always refer to women older than yourself as Mrs or Ms Smith. Never by their first name. Again, depending on the type of relationship with the an older man the same for him is optional.

4. No matter how hard a woman hits you or why she hits you, you NEVER hit her back. EVER!!!! If some dude takes a swing at you feel free to knock his friggin block off.

That's very similar to what this teacher is teaching, why are these lessons sexist? There is no assumption of inferiority by the male in these situations. In fact it's just the opposite.

[madrchsod]

19. i used to have those classes in the 50`s

i guess it must have totally fucked up my generation....:rofl:

[pokerfan]

20. George Washington's Rules of Civility & Decent Behaviour In Company and Conversation

http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/manners/rules2.cfm

2d - When in Company, put not your Hands to any Part of the Body, not usualy Discovered.

7th - Put not off your Cloths in the presence of Others, nor go out your Chamber half Drest.

10th - When you Sit down, Keep your Feet firm and Even, without putting one on the other or Crossing them.

What a tight-assed little priss he must've been...

[melm00se]

102. number 41

Undertake not to Teach your equal in the art himself Proffesses; it Savours of arrogancy.

[asdjrocky]

21. I think it's cool

I like etiquette. I like opening doors for women. I like standing up when they come into a room.

There are some lessons learned that just helps us be nicer people.

I see young boys saying things to girls, and treating them in certain ways we would have never thought of when I was a boy, I know that makes me sound like an old coot, so be it.

I have a daughter who is 20 years old, and I want her treated with respect.

Call me old fashioned, but I say bravo.

[shiriko32]

27. I don't

If I had a son, I wouldn't want him to be nice to EVERYONE, not just girls. I like opening doors for EVERYONE, not just women. In order to be a "nicer person", you must treat EVERYONE with respect, not just someone who you consider to be so weak that they can't even open a door for themselves.

I hate how women are being portrayed as these weak figures who can't do anything for themselves. WOmen are strong figures in society, and I believe that they are also capable of helping men out to hold a door if they're holding a stack of books and can't get it themselves.

[asdjrocky]

31. I have a stepson.

We taught him to be nice to and to respect everyone.

I worked at a school for a year, my step sons school, and I was flabbergasted at the things the boys would say to the girls.

Guess I'm just old fashioned.

[MattBaggins]

36. Teaching kids to be respectful to each other

does not predicate treating girls differently then others. Kids being mean to one another doesn't mean girls need to be treated as a "fairer sex" that needs doors opened for them and their chairs pushed in.

Teaching respect and consideration is crucial for children; this however, is down right silly.

[XemaSab]

92. I think that a basic lesson in civility carries over to other spheres

Ok, so the boys are taught to be nice to women, but I would guess that an atmosphere of politeness and gentility in the classroom carries over into other spheres.

I think teaching kids basic politeness and manners cannot possibly have a bad outcome.

[customerserviceguy]

35. I say bravo, too

It beats the other extreme of listening to rappers telling boys to think of girls as bitches or ho's.

[Obamanaut]

53. I also say bravo. n/t

[Arkana]

22. What is this, Victorian England?

[Mari333]

28. yeah, I have the vapours already!

I may swoon anytime now.

[Iris]

38. Apparently not, according to the article. Although, I'd like more information on what "treating

girls roughly" entails.

[Odin2005]

23. I don't get the problem with this.

Too many of my fellow young males are rude assholes. Then again, I grew up in a rural area where good manners were expected.

[PassingFair]

24. How does it actually HELP women to "pull out their chairs" or stand up when they walk into a room?

Should the girls be shunted off to the powder room
while the boys enjoy a smoke after lunch?

These ridiculous "manners" being learned here
do more harm than good, singling out women
as "others" who are fragile and in need of help.

I usually go shopping by myself...I'd say 95%
of the time. If my husband goes with me, I'm
expected to stand back while he packs the eggs
first and the cans on top.

He can get crabby about this...I've had to remind
him..."Who do you think carries the dogfood when
you're NOT here?"

It's pro-forma nonsense.

[Odin2005]

29. Yes, because slamming doors in a women's face is SOOO anti-sexist!

:eyes:

[MattBaggins]

37. False Dichotomy much?

Not slamming doors in peoples faces is a common courtesy to all people regardless of gender. No need to be going backward to what is in fact an old fashioned form of chauvinism and run around pushing in chairs just for women.

[WolverineDG]

41. Yeah, I love showing how liberated I am

by refusing to enter doors held open for me by men. :eyes:

dg

[kevinbgoode]

48. Shouldn't a woman be taught to open a door for a man?

What if a guy is carrying too many books? Manners should be PRACTICAL - not some ceremony devised by some heterosupremacist dating ritual which supports the idea that one sex is generally helpless and should be put on a pedestal while the other one must constantly look around for ways to accommodate.

[StandardEE]

25. I definitely agree that teaching manners is a good thing and more teachers

should consider doing it since many parents may not have the time
or children get the wrong idea about how to behave from TV. But to quote the person
before me is this "Victorian England"?

I mean this makes it seem like girls are these extremely fragile things that need
so much "special attention." So it would be regressing to act that way.....it goes
in with the same pattern of thinking that girls shouldn't do anything "too physically demanding."

This won't encourage girls to compete with boys in anything. What should be encouraged
is healthy competition and mutual respect. I also think it's kind of degrading and ridiculous to ask the boys to "stand up" every time a girl walks in the room. Is that even necessary?

I don't think boys are that stupid so that would be the only way they could "learn"
how to treat people. I dunno, maybe I am naive, but I think
it’s kind of exaggerated. I understand the teacher is trying to protect the girls, which btw girls can be really nasty towards boys as well.

Why is it always the boy's fault and the girl is an innocent little angel? I'm not saying that cuz I am a guy, I'm a girl and I know. Making the boys walk on eggshells around them is a bit much. That’s just my opinion.

[Number23]

30. After riding the DC Metro too many times and seeing teenaged boys sit obliviously while 90-year old

women with walkers are flying around the train car trying to hold onto the rails because the young men won't give up their seats, I think this is a pretty good thing.

[MattBaggins]

39. Perhaps a different light

"seeing teenagers(boys or girls) sitting while elderly (man or woman) were forced to stand".

All the kids should be taught basic manners. Teaching the boys old fashioned sexism isn't going to help.

What would you suggest the girls be taught with these manners? Should they be taught to curtsy and giggle politely when the boys speak to them?

[Number23]

52. You think it's sexism, I'm a woman and I don't.

Not only that, I still think what the teacher is doing is great and I applaud him. Wish more would do it. I'm happy to include 90-year old men as the recipients of such gentlemanly behavior as well.

Should they be taught to curtsy and giggle politely when the boys speak to them?

Yes, that's exactly what I think should happen. Saying merely "thank you" when a boy opens a door for them or simply responding when spoken to would IMMEDIATELY throw us back to the Stone Ages and the time of being barefoot and pregnant, I'm sure.

[Stephanie]

85. No, the girls should be taught to defer to their elders as well.

There are rules to a civilized society that help it run more smoothly. There are certainly plenty of etiquette rules for girls. I have ingrained in me certain rules I was a taught as a Brownie - how to introduce people by telling them each something of interest about the other, how to take the cookie that is nearest to you on the tray rather than reaching for the biggest one. Girls who are raised with good manners will do their best at all times to make others comfortable, and that would include giving up their seat on the train to an elder.

[kevinbgoode]

49. Unless it is a 90 year old man.

Then, what is being taught is that the old guy would be on his own.

[Ratty]

50. Basic civility needs to be taught early nowdays (but without the corny, insulting sexism)

Why bring the need to bring sexism into it? There isn't enough civility to teach without teaching girls are delicate and need to be protected an d put on a pedestal? Your post is a great example of the kind of thing that can and should to be taught. The teacher is using valuable class time and it should be used wisely. I bet we could all put together a list a mile long of actually useful things that should be taught.

I'm not saying the teacher is a monster, he should just prioritize.

[surrealAmerican]

33. Is anybody else here reminded of ...

... "To Sir With Love"?

[Tim01]

81. Absolutely. nt

[woo me with science]

34. Does that include not putting remote-activated cameras in other people's houses? nt

[proteus_lives]

46. This is good. I was taught manners growing up. It helps.

And I don't think good manners are sexist either.

[Stephanie]

86. My brother used to be sent to his room for refusing to put his napkin in his lap.

My parents were sticklers for table manners. Served us well.

[kevinbgoode]

47. For godsakes...so what does this 50's style teacher do with the

gay and lesbian kids? Stereotype their gender behavior in the opposite manner?

Why not teach the boys and the girls to just open doors for EACH OTHER? And this stand and respect someone based on their sex is just...weird. Why not stand to respect each individual when they walk into a room?

[Caretha]

54. This is a short article

that emphasizes respect for women and seems to have several DUer's panties in a wad. I like to think that this teacher is also expanding "his manners" classes to include other things that will further both male & female awareness of etiquette & good manners. The article also stated that parents were concerned that their female offspring also return the courtesy with a thank you. I liked that alot.

I like to think that he is teaching both his male & female students:

How to introduce people to one another.... this will teach inclusion and less emphasis on "the me" attitude

In what order to introduce people to one another... this will teach them respect for the elderly

How to shake a persons hand and look them in the eye... this will give them self confidence and teach them self respect

When to refer to someone with an appropriate title or to call them a familiar name instead of Mr., Mrs., Ms., Mam or Sir... this will teach them boundaries and make them good neighbors instead of someone who believes its okay to rip political signs out of one another's yards

I'm sure there are many who can think of more ways to teach/incorporate this in an educational institution that would be advantageous vs detrimental.

I believe instead of yelling SEXISM we need to dig deeper into what an innovative teacher or curriculum could do to improve the awareness of young people and teaching them how to show more consideration for others. I think this is what, as so many DUers like to say...."this is what Jesus would do".

It has to start somewhere, and if not in the home, then where will they learn it?

[RainDog]

58. jesus would teach sexism?

tell that to Mary Magdalene.

[Caretha]

60. I believe you missed my point

[RainDog]

62. or maybe not

[Caretha]

63. You may have the last word :)

[Odin2005]

67. No use arguing with people that think good manners are un-PC.

I don't care what other people think. I hold doors for women. If they don't like it that's their problem.

[Caretha]

75. And if you hold the door for me

whether you are male or female, I will respond with a thank you. That just seems to be good manners to me. :)

[GreenArrow]

111. Good manners and basic respect are essentially what PC is.

If someone did not wish to have me open the door for them, and communicated that to me, I wouldn't do it for them. For everyone else, woman or man, I would.

[PassingFair]

104. Jesus would happily allow the women to wash his feet with their HAIR.

How mannered!

[Caretha]

105. You are talking about

cultural norms & traditions of 2000 yrs ago and a story that was meant to send a message in that day & time. Please stay on topic here.

[PassingFair]

106. Hey, you asked WWJD, not me. n/t

[Caretha]

120. No

Please re-read my post. I said: "that's what some DUers would say". Thank you for playing...have a good day.

[PassingFair]

124. You said "I think..."

"I THINK this is what, as so many DUers like to say...."this is what Jesus would do"."


But whatever.



Have a good day.

[Mike 03]

55. Somebody here said, "How does this help women?" I think it helps men more than females.

I don't see the problem with this. It is not a program aimed at women, but men. Something as simple as holding the door for a female has a positive effect on how those males think of women, I believe.

Rec.

Females don't need the retraining most males do.

[noamnety]

66. Having a go at explaining the problem

Many women would prefer to be treated as equals. That's what we need, in fact, to be able to compete in the work force for equal wages and equal respect.

When we reinforce gender roles so strictly that even normal interactions (a woman walking into the room, a woman sitting down) are overlaid with GENDER!!11!1! as the primary lens, it prevents people from seeing us primarily as professionals. When we walk into a room full of men, we don't want them to be focused on "Look, a woman has walked into the room!" any more than a black person walking into a room of white people wants conversation to come to a halt while everyone comes to attention because a black person has entered.

Are we really so different that we need all of our interactions, even in an academic setting, to denote us as The Other?

[AsahinaKimi]

71. +!

agree!

[Odin2005]

68. Bingo!

[maynard]

77. It does help women

As a Middle School teacher, boys are always being inappropriate with the girls (verbally and physically) and the girls begin to think this is the way things are supposed to be. This is where domestic violence issues begin to develop........girls assuming that this is the way things are supposed to be. During one of his concerts, Tim McGraw had security throw out a guy in one of the rows closer to the stage because he was becoming physically aggressive to the woman he was with. Tim has three daughters. He said he does not want them to ever think that this type of behavior is acceptable from any man. Toby Keith has thrown out men who physically abuse women during his concerts.

I always compliment any man, young or old, for opening a door for me and assisting me. When a male student holds open a door for me, I thank him and I also tell him to thank him mom who is raising her son right.

Common courtesy is lost to the younger generations. So sad.....No one should treat rude behavior as common behavior.

[varelse]

64. Kids should be expected, and even required, to treat other people with respect

but teaching them gender-based roles is outside the scope of the public school teacher's responsibility - and his authority.

[RainDog]

65. thank you

it's sad to see women on this thread applauding gender stereotyping.

[KonaKane]

69. You can do that without going back to the Middle Ages

maybe they should wear capes and learn how to throw them in the mud before a woman too. Sheesh.

[varelse]

121. I agree

the emphasis should be on respect, consideration, and compassion for others, not on gender-based roles.

[Forkboy]

72. I avoid the argument by just being rude to everybody.

:P

[Shell Beau]

73. Men opening a door for women in the south is common practice.

I don't expect it, but it always happens. I always say thank you, of course (and I don't mean car door, but if a man is walking in front of a woman to go into a store, he will open the door and stand back so the woman can go in first). I don't get the standing when a girl enters the room though or the pulling her chair out for her. That definitely seems outdated. But, we also say "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" in the south still to anyone that is considerably older if you are an adult, and if you are a child, you pretty much say it to anyone over 25 or so. :shrug: I think I see where this man is coming from though. A lot of music today seems to put down women, and it seems this man is trying to teach respect for women. Although, I think the most important thing to teach is respect for humans.

[Skittles]

88. I live in Texas and I don't see much of that

guess I need to go to the "south" to see it

[seabeyond]

97. i do. but then it is equally gender door holding up. but lots of men hold door for women

here and let them go in ahead. i get it often.

you must be big city, wink

[Shell Beau]

112. I don't know. It is common practice in the places in MS where I've lived.

[Skittles]

122. that would not make up for having to live in MS

I was stationed there in the Air Force

[Shell Beau]

125. I happen to love MS. I guess it isn't for everyone.

[Missy Vixen]

116. I don't object when a man holds the door open for me

or offers to carry something heavy. I also don't think he views me as a lesser person because he makes the offer. Speaking of the South, when the yearly professional conference I attend is located there, male behavior is markedly different than in Seattle. In other words, women are ladies, and are treated as such, at least by those in the hotels we stay in. I'll never forget the waiter at our luncheon telling the table, "Twenty-two hundred beautiful women here for lunch? They should be paying ME." :woohoo:

It is amazing how many people in retail businesses, restaurants, etcetera, are shocked when anyone offers the most rudimentary evidence of manners (saying "please" and "thank you", asking for whatever is needed in a polite manner, treating someone else with courtesy). It costs nothing, and makes things nicer for everyone.

[seabeyond]

117. when a man offers to carry a heavy, awkward suitcase for me, i say... thank you

doesnt hurt my feelings at all. easier for him, than me. i appreciate.

[Missy Vixen]

119. I guess I didn't get the memo re: "good manners" now equals "antifeminist"

I went to Bible college. (It was a mistake. LOL) It was amazing how fast the guys got the "manners" religion when they saw other guys opening doors for females, offering to carry heavy items, etcetera. It seemed women liked to be around guys who treated them with courtesy.

Of course, IMHO.

[KonaKane]

76. The way to show respect to women....

* Talk to them like you would any other intelligent human, and don't talk down to them.

* Don't hold them in less esteem because of their physical difference from men.

* Don't pass them over for a promotion, or refuse to hire them, because they are women.

* Don't assume their femininity precludes them from doing a physically or emotionally demanding job.

* Don't assume they cannot think rationally because "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus".

* Don't assume government should get control over their bodies just because they can gestate and bear children.

Oh, and finally....don't assume that some antiquated throw-your-cape-across-a-mud-puddle chivalry is an adequate modern expression of showing respect to women. This is the year 2010, not 1010.

[wickerwoman]

84. Amen on your number 5.

I was once lifting a computer in a box at work and a guy body-checked me and grabbed it out of my hands so he could impress a prettier girl who had just come into view. And then he had the nerve to look at me like he expected a thank you.

I've also had guys get super-pissy when they tried to grab luggage out of my hands and I told them I could manage it myself.

It's really pretty simple. If someone (regardless of gender, age or attractiveness) looks like they need help, *ask them*. If they say "yes", help. If they say "no, thanks", back off.

How would you feel if a complete stranger walked up and, without saying anything, tried to grab something out of your hand? And then got pissed at you because they were "just being polite"?

[Lilith Velkor]

110. Oddly enough, they don't get pissy when you punch them in the face

That's what I do whenever a complete stranger grabs at me. "Oh, I'm sorry, I was just trying to..." "...be mistaken for a mugger? That's a good way to get your ass shot, now get the fuck away from me before I change my mind about not pressing charges."

[seabeyond]

101. and as long as following those rules, then free to objectify, dehumanize, and see them as things to

hit. (as in fuck, not physically hit, but interesting how slang works so well for both)

i think part of the problem is our males are seeing one thru five, so implementing my 6 they say wha? wha? i am a feminist.

[eridani]

80. Geez. I guess they can either hold the doors open for us or slam them in our faces

There just can't possibly be some middle ground here. :sarcasm:

[Tim01]

82. Good. nt

[Stephanie]

83. I've noticed a resurgence in gentlemanly behavior in NYC since 9/11.

It's quite dramatic. I first noticed immediately after 9/11, like in the weeks after, that the men had sort of deputized themselves and were guarding the doors of the subway car. You could really see them doing it, checking each other out, forming silent posses of subway protection squads. The attitude grew and now I find NYC men routinely hold doors, give up seats, wait for the women to enter the elevator first, all sorts of gentlemanly behavior that was extinct here up until 2001, now in full force, regardless of class or race. I find this adjustment universal across the city, most noticeable on the subway but also at the office, out shopping, etc. It's nice, it's pleasant, and having a few rules for civilized society makes a hectic city run a little smoother, and makes everyone feel a little better. Kudos to the teacher, those boys will have a smoother time in their future endeavors. Good manners say a lot about a person.

[dustbunnie]

115. I noticed it too! :-)

[HillWilliam]

87. I remember the signs in the buses in Germany 30 years ago

that read "Wen es um den sitzplatz geht, das alter sitz, die jungend steht!". That is (roughly), "if there is any question about seat, the older sits, the younger stands!".

Since I'm southern and was raised in a sternly traditional southern household, to me that was considered common courtesy. A poster up-thread indicated his grandmother and aunties would have beat him if he didn't adhere to that modality. Let me tell you, my grandmother and aunties would have blistered my behind as well. We younguns would be polite in and out of the house.

Or else. In the country or in our small town SOMEbody's mama would get word back before we got home. Hoo-wee!

To this day, I would still offer my seat to someone less able, open the door for anyone with their hands full or for an elder (I'm 53), and I still use "ma'am" and "sir" in speech. It's only polite, period, full-stop, end-of-story. I expect it in return, but it's seldom returned. The behavior of most people walking around these days is of a sort my parents would consider rude, uncouth, uncultured, and "plain bad raisin'".

The same still goes in our office of six people where we routinely say "yes ma'am", "no sir", "thank you, ma'am", etc to one another because we're quite close. In the 50+ crowd of southerners, that says more than just courtesy, more than just respect, it says "I like you" and "I care about your feelings". It's not love, but it's more than like. We're a very small company, so it's a way of indicating we're buddies.

I think the younguns these days just don't know how to make any human connections and that's rather sad.

[RainDog]

93. the problem with the supportive responses on this thread

is that those who post them assume an either/or false dichotomy.

either society instills sexism as part of etiquette or society is totally horrid.

there is a third way that emphasizes courtesy to ALL.

I and others here have noted that we have been able to teach manners without injecting sexism. There is enough sexism already. Parents and teachers don't need to teach sexism along with common courtesy.

it seems that some here have so internalized the sexism in their society that they deem their region's courtesy superior to courtesy that is based on equality.

As a former southerner, I always find it ironic to hear the ways southern sexism is lauded. ah yes, the good ole days.

As noted above, it is 2010, not the 1800s.

[Book Lover]

94. He's only addressing one side, if that, of etiquette

Etiquette is about so much more than getting boys to treat girls of their age (or any age) with respect; but heavy etiquette theory (http://bit.ly/aR6zzJ especially page 38) is hardly this teacher's point, I'm sure.

on edit: misspelling

[Vinca]

103. Table manners next. And don't forget the part about

removing one's baseball cap inside a restaurant. Apparently my geezerdom has overridden by feminism because I appreciate a door held open.

[ChickMagic]

108. My husband would have driven this teacher into insanity

Really.

[dustbunnie]

118. No big whopdeedo at all. It's nice that the kids are learning how it was once done.

As the teacher says, it is a latin class after all. And it seems to be keeping the heathen, bugger-faced, testosterone-exploding boys in check when they are dealing with the girls in class. Less disruption, better relations. What's wrong with that?

The boys will absolutely lose these manners the second they graduate from class, but they'll remember the sentiment. That is, respect. The girls too.

BONUS ETIQUETTE TIP OF THE DAY FOR BIG MEN: It is generally considered polite to hold open a door for others. If you are a strapping, brutishly large guy and are headed for massive office tower revolving doors, do NOT magnanimously wave smaller women through first. This is the only time where it is more polite to plow ahead and do the heavy pushing so the woman can ease through behind you. Same goes for men, younger women versus older folks. Don't wave them through first.

[frustrated_lefty]

126. "Are you holding that door open for me just because I'm a woman?"

No, I'm doing it because I am a gentleman.