Damn, just read the entire web post of the suicidal pilot, don't believe your TVs

[fan of the arts]

This guy was educated, not mentally ill and, got repeatedly screwed by our pathetic and failed predatory disaster capitalism. If all that language is over your head or too real, just read this guy's life story and it'll be quite easy to understand. Let is also be very, very clear, I DO NOT support what this guy did, I merely have the human capability to see why it happened:

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/internet_note_posted_by_man_li.html?cxntcid=breaking_news

[Oregone]

1. Wrong

He sounded sane until he let his other personalities contribute past the third paragraph. That fuckn thing was all over the map. It became beyond incoherant.

[depakid]

27. The very embodiment of teabagging, if you ask me...

[Toucano]

2. K&R for effort to understand something.

It's rarer than you might think.

[fan of the arts]

12. Thank you, I can just as easily understand the people who lost their sense of security

as in the people who worked in the building. Of course, the internet is a playground for outrage-release so I expect they'll be many screaming at me for simply using my mind. The backwards logic of people's faux outrage is actually expressed quite well in the suicide post when he expressed his intense efforts throughout his lifetime to make people aware of things that were ultimately met with pure apathy, greed and corruption.

About a year ago, several sociologists warned that the violence in the U.S. was going to increase exponentially as a result of our failed system of capitalism, typically lagging about 9-12 months after the collapse of the studied societies. These people aren't crackpots, they are the victims, just like most other people. It's a piece of knowledge that most of our propagandized population is not even capable of hearing, much less understanding. They are scared little people in their own minds, just waiting for someone to tell them everything will be OK.

[LostInAnomie]

3. He was a spoiled, self righteous, piece of shit.

Fuck him.

[Number23]

18. Your avator is the perfect image for this thread.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. Digby has a bead on the income tax non-payment scam he got caught up in:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/scams-by-digby-tv-is-obsessed-with-anti.html

IIRC, this group was one of those "common law" groups that set up mirror governments and declared that the "sovereign" state of wherever didn't have to abide by the US Constitution. They are also loosely affiliated with the Posse Comitatus white supremacists, militias and other garden variety Anti-government fringers. It's all part of that great American wingnut tapestry.

Obviously, I'm just guessing that one or both of these scams are what this guy was referring to, but it fits. If it was, then this fellow was not only an anti-tax loon, he was a victim of anti-tax loons, which makes him a double dupe.

[redqueen]

8. I knew it.

What I don't know is why there was so much bending over backwards to try to paint this greedy prick as some poor, beaten-down guy who would fit right in on DU.

[Solomon]

37. Well, was he white?

[redqueen]

52. Yeah... I don't like to think that's the reason, but...

*sigh*

[jobycom]

20. I'm not sure that was the same group.

There are groups who claim they can prevent you from having to pay taxes, and that they have discovered loopholes in the law so that you can do it legally. They hire tax lawyers who swear what they are doing is legal, and they claim they are just giving you the advantage that someone like the Catholic Church or major corporations has to avoid paying taxes. Or sometimes they claim there is some flaw in the law that the IRS and government wants to hide, so they won't prosecute you because they are afraid of making the flaw public and negating all income taxes. Stuff like that. You have to really want to be conned to fall for that one. Most people who hook up with them know it's a lie, but they are hoping they get overlooked when the bills come due, and that they create just enough plausible deniability to protect themselves if they aren't.

[redqueen]

53. It's still not about 'finding exemptions' as some have tried to claim

in an attempt to make this guy out as anything but a greedy bastard.

Why that's so important for some to do, I don't know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Scott Roeder was also in that group

He was arrested for having bomb making materials. 12 years later, he murdered Dr. Tiller.

[hatrack]

48. Roeder also sent letters to his kids, saying that he wouldn't pay child support . . .

. . . because the evil, EVIL government had no right to make him pay.

How is Cessna McVeigh any different?

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Roeder's ex-wife has been posting comments on The Star's website

My heart goes out to her.

[Cha]

5. I'm sorry he had a lot of bad luck(evidently)

but it is insane to set fire to your house and fly into an occupied building..he's a domestic terrorist and a selfish prick.

[Chemisse]

31. Just because people were scared doesn't mean he was a terrorist

He is no different than the guy who opens fire in the town hall because he doesn't like his tax bill. He just used a plane.

[MilesColtrane]

45. He was both a nut with an axe to grind, and a terrorist.

"Nothing (about the government) changes unless there is a body count...

-snip-

I can only hope that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less.

-snip-

...I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn't so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer."

McVeigh could have written that.

[Chemisse]

67. So he has a political objective which he thinks would be served by his actions

But he is working alone and his is a suicide mission, so there is no ongoing plan.

How can you terrorize people if you are dead and there is no network to continue your "work"?

[MilesColtrane]

70. He struck terror in the people who were in that building that day.

And, a lot of people who work for the IRS probably looked over their shoulders when they went to work the next day.

Per the law, a terrorist doesn't have to be part of a conspiracy.

If you read Stark's suicide note you'll see that he was hoping to inspire similar attacks.

He wanted to be the spark that ignited a full on war against the government.

[Chemisse]

71. If it continues to cause fear, even though he is dead

Then perhaps it can be called terrorism.

I am just tired of people (and governments) flinging the word about as a tool to frighten people, and bend them to their will.

[Chemisse]

68. McVeigh could terrorize people because he did not die in the attack

The potential for it to happen again - anywhere, anytime - is what induces terror.

[EFerrari]

6. That's not enough information to draw the conclusion you draw.

[Born_A_Truman]

7. BS!

The guy had two businesses in California that were suspended by the SOS for failing to pay taxes (and it was just a little over a grand); owned his home, a business in Texas and an airplane. He failed to file taxes and then had unreported income. Is that the fault of the government?

[PassingFair]

54. He blames government base closures for his business failures in CA....

But he doesn't want to pay taxes.

These "gung-ho" guys don't think things
through, do they?

This guy reminds me of my oldest brother,
who NEVER got over the fact that the
world isn't "fair".

I would bet money that this fellow was
a first born.

[LoZoccolo]

9. "Not mentally ill"? WTF?

It's not rational to fly a plane into a building to protest his taxes. The IRS will still be there tomorrow and people just think he's a selfish jerk. He did nothing to benefit anyone or deal with his problems by this.

[AllentownJake]

11. not being rational, is not a sign of mental illness

There are plenty of irrational people who choose to do irrational things that are not suffering from any mental imbalances, nor do I think he was a sociopath, and I don't think he had a personality disorder.

Sometimes perfectly "sane" individuals do some fucked up shit.

[Political Heretic]

16. See my post below. There is actually a concrete definition for mental illness.

And this happens to be directly in my field.

[sendero]

40. I dunno...

... I've always held the view that anyone that kills another human being on purpose and not in self defense is by definition insane.

Thankfully, the courts don't agree :)

[AllentownJake]

13. not being rational, is not a sign of mental illness

There are plenty of irrational people who choose to do irrational things that are not suffering from any mental imbalances, nor do I think he was a sociopath, and I don't think he had a personality disorder.

Sometimes perfectly "sane" individuals do some fucked up shit.

[paulsby]

10. are you ominiscient?

how do you know he was not mentally ill?

did you conduct a psychological workup?

what you mean is - doesn't APPEAR mentally ill

[blogslut]

14. He wasn't screwed

He chose to evade paying his taxes and joined some "I don't owe the government nuthin'" movement in order to justify his actions.

[Schema Thing]

21. yep

[KonaKane]

25. Exactly.

I'm getting a little tired of the hand wringing for him here. I have had to pay my goddamned taxes all my life. Yes sometimes it was inconvenient and sometimes it hurt a bit. But that goes with the benefits that come with living in a democratic society. Just because Joe 16th Amendment didn't agree doesnt mean he gets to fly a plane into a building full of innocent people and be declared a fucking saint.

[laughingliberal]

65. Not excusing his actions at all and a firm believer in progressive taxation

I will say the tax codes have been skewed towards the wealthy at the expense of the middle and working classes since Reagan. It does get frustrating, at times.

[Political Heretic]

15. Someone willing to commit murder suicide is, by definition mentally ill. And I'm an MSW

Masters of Social Work.

I'm telling you that by the DSM-IV and Clinical assessment practices, if you are ready to harm yourself and others you are suffering from mental illness.

I think too many people think mental illness just means schizophrenia or something. That's a narrow misconception of what mental illness entails.

Likewise, being mentally ill does not mean you are incapable of rationality or coherence. His suicide note was clearly coherent and rational, whether one agrees with the content or not.

[upi402]

24. I said that too, for a minute

and was surprised at how I was challenged. I had to use the term 'troubled' I think to move on and discuss what his political leanings may be. You're not healthy in the mind if you do that, full stop. I figure people want to be kind to folks with mental illness and can't separate this from classical mental illness.

Then a thread of mine got locked! People had been calling him a freeper and teabagger. I asked if part of his diatribe couldn't be more of a DU post than a Free Republic post. POOF! Flames and a lock, lol.
Ted Bundy was mentally ill and that Judge in Florida was about gushing over him, before he sentenced Ted to die of course. Bundy was highly functional and very sick too.

[crispini]

41. A voice of reason. Thank you.

Is it possible to be mentally ill AND a jerk? Because torching his family's house just shows his selfishness on top of all the rest, IMO.

[jobycom]

17. He screwed himself and blamed others for it.

I don't think he was mentally ill at all. he was just a selfish piece of shit. The only tragedy is that he took other people with him.

[TwilightGardener]

19. Amazing how people bend over backwards to try to understand a murderous loser--

IF he spouts just the right political bullshit.

[dionysus]

60. ding..

[REP]

22. Commit/attempt mass murder = fuck you, no sympathy, hope hell exists so you burn

Suicides who have to take someone with them are among the worst cowardly scum. I don't care what kind of screwing-over he felt he got - his family and his victims deserve sympathy, not him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. LOL

The guy was a murderous fraud.

[DainBramaged]

26. And Stalin just wanted to send people on vacation...........

I smell pizza, hot and cheesy.............

[EFerrari]

28. You use "educated" and "mentally ill" as if they're opposing terms.

They're not.

[Skidmore]

34. No, they are not.

But this was not the act of someone who was thinking rationally.

[EFerrari]

56. Right. Apparently, his wife and her daughter had left the house

because she was afraid of him.

[CTyankee]

39. Yes, look at Amy Bishop's resume. One of her degrees is from Harvard.

nt

[Forkboy]

29. No, I think he was mentally ill.

I'm curious as to how mentally ill, what signs were there to his family and friends before this, and did he ever seek any help of any kind (or if that a concern to those around him). I sense some paranoid schizophrenia in his manifesto, to be sure, but no more than I see from some posters on online discussion forums at times, including this one. But if he was P/S then getting help and admitting himself into the system would be the last thing he'd do.

[meowomon]

30. I don't want to waste my time perusing the ramblings of a mad man.

Life is too short. Leave that for the investigators who do this for a living. EEW.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. He's just another violent teabagger who hates America

and deserves no defense whatsoever.

[NNN0LHI]

35. Did you admire the 9/11 hijackers too?

[stray cat]

36. I guess he also got "repeatedly screwed" by his wife and child as well?

He may not have been mentally ill - but he isn't a poor waif.....

[spanone]

38. he was a tax dodger who was pissed cause he got caught NOTHING MORE

[MineralMan]

42. Yup. That's it.

It is that simple.

[blondeatlast]

58. Precisely. And the cretin took others with him. I can't muster an ounce of sympathy,

try as I might.

[MilesColtrane]

43. .

[NoPasaran]

44. He might have had more effect

If he had posted his "manifesto" in the form of one of those "Hitler learns that time you spend feeling sorry for yourself isn't deductible" videos on YouTube.

[NNN0LHI]

46. If flying an aircraft into an office building full of people isn't terrorism what is?

[lpbk2713]

47. He should have never listened to his radio.

That way he would not have been compelled to do what he did by Beck or
Limbaugh or Hannity or any of the other lying RW Media Hatemongers.

[earth mom]

49. Joe Stack made some of the points that many of us have made here on DU...BUT

many of what went wrong was his own fault.

Yeah, the IRS sucks and taxes are illegal and are bleeding the middle class dry, BUT you pay your taxes or those bastards at the IRS will come after you and make your life a living hell.

The only way to fight the IRS would be for EVERYONE in the country to stop paying taxes en masse.

Just like the only way to fight the corruption in Washington in DC is for EVERYONE in the country to find a way to shut it down-be it "pitchforks" or to stop working and shopping for as long as it takes.

Joe Stack THOUGHT he did the right thing to wake people up, but he went about it all wrong.

[Fire1]

55. Got to agree with ya, earth mom. Good points. n/t

[dionysus]

50. LOLOLOL.. he was a serial tax evader, and a greedy idiot to boot...

thankfully now a dead idiot...

[sinkingfeeling]

51. No, this educated guy was repeatedly trying to screw us by not paying his taxes on his privately

owned businesses. How much do you think he owed, if he was hit with a $40,000 fine? He wanted to be an 'independent' contractor so that nobody could withhold federal taxes.

[kentuck]

57. This little snip sums up Joe Stack, in my opinion..

in his own words:

"We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse."

He was an anti-tax crusader...

[fascisthunter]

59. to do something this extreme you have to be off your rocker

sorry

[Ganja Ninja]

61. No thanks.

He was an anti tax, anti government loon.

[Juche]

62. That was a good letter

The impression he painted was that he was being fucked over by plutocracy and had lost all his retirement savings due to it.

However, the counterimpression some DUers have is that he was well off, but just didn't want to pay taxes.

I don't know which is true. But at least there was some dialogue on what happened instead of knee jerk reactions.

[krabigirl]

63. I agree about the letter, but he crashed a plane into a BUILDING. wtf

[leftynyc]

64. What a crappy OP

Educated and mentally ill are not mutually exclusive. It doesn't matter what he's been through - let him put a bullet in his brain. Taking a plane and smashing it into a building (after setting his home on fire with his wife and child inside)erases any sympathy he may have garnered for having to pay taxes like the rest of us. Hope he rots.

[Canuckistanian]

69. It's remakably lacking in specific details of causes of his problems

He COULD have included examples that proved his point. But he didn't. Legislation, legal actions against him, his own specific actions.
Nothing.

I come away with a feeling that he had a great disgust with the system, but not knowing exactly WHY.

[Tx4obama]

72. He was educated so what, he was still mentally ill....

anyone that would fly a plane into a building that contained people of VARIOUS businesses I believe is INSANE.
Sure he had a gripe against the IRS but that building was not 'only' IRS employees, that building had several businesses within.
Anyone that burns down their house and then crashes a plane into a building of innocent people has to be NUTS.