If Olberman had made a racist joke he would be gone or at least in huge trouble

[dsc]

but a transgender joke, not so much. Let's face it. Joking about LGBT people, even on MSNBC, is apparently perfectly acceptable. Ann Coulter is horrid human being. But she was horrid when Matthews repeatedly allowed her to appear on Hardball after she called Gore and Clinton a faggot on Hardball. She didn't become any more horrid lately. Nor is it acceptable to make swipes at transgendered people in order to hurt her. We deserve better from progressive commentators than that. Until hateful remarks about LGBT people get treated like the hateful remarks they are LGBT people will be second class citizens, it is as simple as that. Olberman needs to either apologize or resign.

[leftstreet]

1. K&R

[Forkboy]

2. K&R

[Luminous Animal]

3. K&R

[KingFlorez]

4. It was fair game

Coulter made a comment about Rachel Maddow looking macho and that was why Olbermann responded like he did.

[dsc]

7. So if Kenneth Blackwell had made such a remark it would have been perfectly OK to call him the

n word? I fail to see the difference.

[KingFlorez]

11. This isn't about race

Pulling the race card is these sort of situations isn't fair. It wasn't offensive what Olbermann said, people have been making androgynous and gender jokes for years and only recently has it become offensive. Olbermann did use a slur against anyone and he didn't bash any group.

[557188]

14. WHAT?

How is that not fair? Why is race more important? Give me a break.

[KingFlorez]

17. It's a weak way to make a point

Especially, when race had absolutely nothing to do with it.

[dsc]

16. and this is my precise point

it is perfectly OK to bash transgendered people on TV but not an ethnic minority.

[KingFlorez]

19. Whatever you want to believe

I don't get why race was even brought into this. It's really not that serious, so there's no point in me arguing anymore.

[dsc]

31. I realize that for many here racism is way, way, way, more evil

than homophobia and anti transgenderism. I get that, doesn't make it right, but I do get it.

[H2O Man]

28. Respectfully disagree.

I think the OP raises a solid point, and that the comparison is valid.

[noamnety]

60. WHAT (seconded)

sexism and bigotry against gays has been acceptable for years? Therefore it still should be?

[readmoreoften]

83. The fact that one trans person is murdered a month obviously doesn't mean shit to you.

It just doesn't have the "gravitas" of racial attacks. I remember when racist jokes were acceptable to the majority of whites. They only "recently" became unacceptable, in fact. And they got that way by other white folks saying: STOP IT. THAT'S NOT FUNNY. When are you going to do your part? Or are you too much of a self-serving opportunist to give a shit about the lives and deaths of people who are different from you?

[Toasterlad]

88. Seriously? This Is Your Argument? "People Have Always Been Bigoted Agaisnt GLBT, So It's Okay?"

Personally, I'm a lot more offended by what YOU said than what Olbermann said. But here's a little tip for you: you don't get to tell GLBT people what they should find offensive.

[readmoreoften]

93. I know, right. I'm more offended by the total dismissal than the stupid statement.

[KingFlorez]

101. You completely twisted what I said

I don't really care though, you don't get to tell me how to perceive things. Everyone who makes a joke about Coulter looking like a man isn't doing it because they hate transgendered people, that is my point that you failed to comprehend.

[Toasterlad]

103. I'll Agree That What You Said Was Twisted, But You're Wrong About Who Did the Twisting.

It's okay. No reason you should understand. It's not your problem, right?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

92. It still acceptable to many people to use racial slurs, they don't find it offensive.

[Jamastiene]

108. Correction:

"people have been making androgynous and gender jokes for years and only recently has it become offensive."

Correction: It has always been offensive. It didn't just all of a sudden become offensive. It has always been offensive.

[EFerrari]

5. That's right.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. If the Rude Pundit had told it, nobody'd bat an eye.

:shrug:

[Throd]

8. Back story?

[Raine]

25. Coulter made a nasty hateful comment about KO's dead mother

she also made remards about Richard Wolfe and Rachel Maddow's sexuality.

[DainBramaged]

43. But KO gets attacked and no one is calling for Coulter to resign the human race

Hmmmmmmmmmm???????


:wtf:

[onehandle]

9. Olberman has made this joke before.*

Why is it suddenly noticed?

Not defending him, just wondering.

*Unless, I'm wrong. Has he?

[jgraz]

10. I'm not usually offended, but that was just beyond the pale

I saw the "joke" coming a mile away and I was just sitting there thinking "no, he's not really going to do it, is he?"

KO's seems like a stand-up guy. I expect he'll apologize within a week.

[Throd]

12. Seriously, what is the history here?

[backscatter712]

15. Keith called Ann Coulter "he"

insinuating he was transgendered, in response to him calling Rachel Maddow "macho".

[Throd]

18. He?

[Toasterlad]

91. I Hope He Doesn't Apologize.

He clearly meant what he said. And if I hear one more insincere apology from yet another famous clown who's forced to apologize only so his show/team/label doesn't lose a few sponsors, I'm going to hurl.


For the record, I wasn't offended. But even if I had been, I'm not interested in an apology. Actions speak far louder than words.

[jgraz]

112. Except with KO, it wouldn't be insincere.

And he'd resign before he'd be forced to do anything.

[Toasterlad]

113. If He Sincerely Regretted It, I Don't Think He Would Have Said It

He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who says things off the cuff; I think all his on-air remarks are carefully considered. I think he didn't think it was offensive, and even after he's told that some people DID find it offensive, he STILL won't think it's offensive (for the record, neither do I). If he apologizes, it will only be to make the people who are offended happy; it won't be because he's actually SORRY about it. Thus, it would be an insincere apology.

I agree that this isn't the kind of thing he'd let himself be forced to do, but I could see him apologizing because he's acknowledging that people are angry about it, but not because he believed he was wrong. I hate those kind of faux apologies.

[Mopar151]

13. It doesn't matter what you call Ann Coulter

It's gonna insult SOMEBODY. As in any being with an internal skeleton. If the SPCA catches up with her, she'll be humanely euthanized for agression issues. I've met nicer skunks.

[stevenleser]

20. Keith should apologize here. K&R n/t

[meowomon]

21. I was pissed too.

She doesn't deserve to be a part of our wonderful LGBT family. KO is wrong. wrong. wrong.

[Zomby Woof]

22. Olbermann is a pompous egomaniacal twit

No surprise to me that his legions of fans will miss your valid point because their god cannot be blasphemed. Sadly, it's not the first time Olbermann has made bigoted comments, and it won't be the last.

[Solly Mack]

23. K&R

[Bitwit1234]

24. I know people joke about Coulter

but in my heart of hearts I really truly BELIEVE that Coulter is a man who had the operation to become a woman. If you look at that person they have not one physical feature of a woman. The hands, the shape of the arms. The curve from the belly button to the stomach.

And I really believe that is why Coulter is constantly and incessantly making cracks and jokes about such things as faggots etc. It goes back to the old saying that "I think you do protest too much">

Let me go on. If a man feels he is a woman, that some how he was born into a womans body, I think it is perfectly ok to have an operation. Take hormones etc to make them feel as the opposite sex. But I get so sick and so upset when that self same person starts to attack everyone around them and make them self appear to be the now all and end all of that sex. I think Ann Coulter is pitiful.

[Bucky]

48. That is just delusional

If I'm missing your sarcasm or if you're being intentionally freeper-level stupid, I apologize. But how can you seriously think Coulter is a post-op transexual when there are people who've talked in the media about knowing her back in college? If you sincerely can't see her feminine characteristics, I suggest you broaden your understanding of human gender characteristics beyond the realm of made for TV cheesecake. If you're just using the notion of being transsexual as a way of insulting someone whose views you disagree with, I suggest you think about the people on the other side of that equation.

[EOTE]

76. I feel the same way.

I believe there's a good chance that Coulter was a man at one time. I know that women have Adam's Apples as well, but I've never seen a woman with one as pronounced as Coulter's. And as you've said, the way she lashes out at others using such derisive terms makes me thing she's very much compensating for something.

I would never use terms pertaining to transgendered people as a slur, and I don't really think that's what KO did. I think he was trying to make her mad, for sure, but in a way she would be helpless to respond against. She truly is a pitiful person.

[readmoreoften]

86. Ann Coulter is NOT TRANSGENDERED.

You can't assume someone is transsexual because of the size of their adams apple. That's simply ridiculous. Women do have adams apples, and sometimes they're as big as mens'.

[EOTE]

100. People can have gender reassignment surgery fairly early, you know?

And it's not JUST Ann Coulter's massive and prominent Adam's apple, it's a number of very manly traits I notice on her in addition to her extreme derision of people she doesn't like as transgendered. It screams to me of "doth protesting too much". I really don't know how you can say with any degree of certainty that she's not unless you happen to have known her as a child.

[readmoreoften]

85. Ann Coulter is NOT TRANSGENDERED.

And transgendered people don't need your damn pity. Ann Coulter is a skinny, middle-aged woman, not a transwoman.



As the partner of a transman, let me ASSURE YOU that SHE IS NOT a stealth transsexual.

*If she were male, her legal documents would've read "male" until she transitioned, which, given her age, would not have happened until she was an adult.
*She would have no pictures of herself as female in college or high school if she were transsexual.

She is simply not transsexual, so cut it the hell out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

94. The curve from the belly button to the stomach? What are you talking about?

[Maru Kitteh]

107. The median umbilical ligament perhaps?

But that goes to the bladder. Puzzling,

[Toasterlad]

104. "Let me go on."

I think we'd all prefer that you didn't.

[Maru Kitteh]

106. +1

[Biker13]

26. K&R

[DainBramaged]

27. Cue the Olbermann outrage..........

ANY one of us who defends Coulter is simply in need of much more help than she/he/it. I'm outraged that that human piece of shit is even acknowledged and defended here.......asking for Olbermann to resign is simply absurd. Your demands offend me. You should resign.

[dsc]

30. I would bet my next paycheck

that had say Clarence Thomas or Kenneth Blackwell been called the n word you wouldn't dare accuse a black poster who complained about that of defending either of them. I would love to hear the difference.

[DainBramaged]

37. look, you and I both go back a long time here, and you are one of the few people

whom I never disagree with. This time I do. You think he needs to apologize, fine, but asking for his resignation is over the top.


We have TWO advocates on the TeeVee, Rachel and KO. Let's just cut that in half because he said something tasteless and hasn't had the chance to apologize.

PS Coulter is still a piece of shit and doesn't deserve any attention.

[dsc]

105. I will say that it wouldn't be fair for him to be the first to resign over this

but that said, until these comments become as toxic as similar racial ones gays will be second class citizens.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Nobody Is Defending Coulter.

Suggesting a person is transgendered when he or she isn't in an attempt to demean, belittle, or insult them implies there is something wrong with being transgendered.

[DainBramaged]

38. You know for a fact Coulter isn't transgendered? Coulter, who demeans Gays at EVERY opportunity?

We have gone nuts here.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Who Cares Whether She's Transgendered Or Not?

It's not about her. It's about the use of the word "transgendred" as a pejorative.

[DainBramaged]

41. (sigh) Whatever, let's just throw the baby out with the bath water and

stomp our feet and hold our breath until Keith resigns while Glen Beck gets away with murder.


When was the last time you asked for Beck's resignation, or ANYONE on FUCKED news for that matter with the same intensity here on DU?


(crickets).


Energy, when it's wasted you can't get it back.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. I Don't Think KO Should Resign. I Just Think He Needs To Be More Sensitive To GLBTQ Issues

As for Glen Beck I would hope his advertising base disappears but there appears to be a market for his hate speech (SIGH)

[hedgehog]

63. I think it was less about using transgendered as a pejorative

than it was about mocking Ann Coulter for suggesting that anything connected with GBLT is a pejorative. Olbermann turned her own weapon against her and it backfired some.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I Think Keith Is Educable On This Issue

But it's disheartening to see so many DUers who fail to see how his comments are hurtful to folks who are transgendered.

[hedgehog]

79. I can see both sides. I think it's analogous to the controversy

over Family Guy episode featuring the girl with Down Syndrome. One person see no harm, the next is very upset. I would have to say that it's best not to use this technique. It's not worth hurting all the good people just to attack Ann.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

39. Nice personal attack, thanks for joining my ignore list

You keep attacking KO, in the end (no pun intended) we'll all suffer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Please Hear Me Out

Nobody here likes Ann Coulter. I pray she finds wisdom, compassion, and empathy but that's a lot to ask.


The problem is that the term "transgendered" is being used as a pejorative.


Also, to refer to a male to female transgendered person as a "he" is a form of bigotry. It's hurtful.

[DainBramaged]

44. I always hear you out

:hug:

Calling for KO to resign is just nuts.

[w8liftinglady]

50. for the record,I agree with you

Letterman's comments were in poor taste.Move on,people.Dave is one of the 2 people on network TV that calls these people out,and you want him to resign?Then we'll have Rachel as our lone TV presence.

[DrCory]

54. Now you are being offensive...

"ANY one of us who defends Coulter is simply in need of much more help than she/he/it"

she/he/it? Do you believe this to be acceptable on DU?

An apology is in order I'd say.

[QC]

70. Cue the fanboyism.

Oh wait, someone already has.

[Prism]

29. As this thread shows, it's one of the last acceptable bigotries

Notice how freely and openly people will go to the mat over this kind of slur. That tells us just how widespread and socially acceptable even liberals find this sort of thing.

Can you imagine the outcry if it had, instead, been a racial comment?

Instead, we get defenses and jokes about it, not a care in the world, daring people to take umbrage.

I see no difference between those attitudes and a racist right-winger taking joy in his bigotry.

There is joy for too many with this bigotry. It's just awful.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Transphobia , Unfortunately, Is Still An Acceptable Form Of Bigotry

~

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. Pretty common even here on DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/searchresults.html?q=%22man+coulter%22&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&sa=Search&domains=democraticunderground.com&client=pub-7805397860504090&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrCory]

55. The Point Being I Think...

Is that it SHOULDN'T exist on DU. Yet it does, and this is an excellent example of the persistance and depth of GLBT bigotry in our society.

[AngryAmish]

36. You are 100% right. It is sickening.

There are a lot of bigots among the poo throwers around here.

[deacon]

46. If murdock signed his paycheck he'd get a raise. n/t

[VMI Dem]

47. The Democratic party is chock full of LGBT bigotry.

It starts at the top and goes all the way down.

[Bluebear]

57. When you're right, you're right.

[Captain Hilts]

59. Sexism is okay with too many. nt

[Ian David]

49. I hope Keith apologizes before I have to rename my space ship.

Behold, the mighty USS Keith Olbermann!
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Ian%20David/7215

[CBR]

52. You can't even convince people on DU that the teabaggers are

racist so I am not sure about that.

[mitchum]

53. As a male, I am offended that someone would refer to that harpy as "he"

[Shagbark Hickory]

56. It'd be nice if these opinion journalists stopped poking at other journalists and instead started

shedding more light on how the politicians and corporations are ass raping each and every one of us.

[Captain Hilts]

58. Sexism is perfectly okay on DU and in our society. nt

[kiva]

61. Apologize, yes - resign, no.

If he doesn't apologize it shows he is totally tone deaf to a sizable chunk of the liberal community and his ratings and show will suffer accordingly - and I say this as someone who isn't a 'My Keith right or wrong' person.

[mzmolly]

62. What'd I miss?

:shrug:

[hedgehog]

64. Olbermann listed a number of attacks Ann Coulter has

made against him and Maddow in which Coulter stated he dressed up in his (dead) mother's clothes and Maddow was the most masculine person there. I think Coulter also named other people.

Olbermann then used Coulter's animosity toward GLBT people against her by implying she is transgendered. It's a controversial tactic.

[mzmolly]

67. Seems that

controversy should find a better home?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. KO Implied Ann Coulter Was Transgendered

Folks are taking umbrahge that being transgenderd is something to be criticised.

[mzmolly]

66. I've heard her referred to as "Man Coulter"

here on several occasions. :shrug:

[cbayer]

75. If you see it, please send the moderators an alert.

From Skinner:

"...we think could use some improvement is in our treatment of transphobic postings, specifically, we will change our enforcement of the "Ann Coulter is a man" posts. I had given moderators instructions to leave them on the board because this particular joke is so pervasive throughout the progressive blogosphere that many people don't realize it is inappropriate. We made this choice because we thought the individuals who post it would be more likely to "get it" if others explained the problem to them, rather than if their posts disappeared. That may be the case, but I now believe that the harm of letting such posts remain on the board outweighs the potential learning that could come from it remaining on the board.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=75173&mesg_id=75173

[mzmolly]

89. Will do.

:hi:

[hedgehog]

69. It's a tricky weapon. Years ago, someone took note that George Wallace's

hair was kinky.

After that, he kept it cut very, very short.

[rbixby]

68. So who is it okay to joke about these days? NT

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. Duno

But you should stay away from race, nationality, religion, sexuality, gender orientation for starters

[Catherine Vincent]

78. People that are fat. nt

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wryter2000]

80. It's not a matter of protecting Coulter

It's a matter of showing respect for our transgendered members.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. I Thought About That

If somebody dissed my deceased mother who I thought was a saint I'd want to kill him or her or say the worst thing about them that I could. So the worst thing KO could say about Coulter is that she's transgendered. That's where the controversy comes from because it suggests being transgendered is a shameful thing to be.

[Toasterlad]

95. Don't Look Know, But the Point Just Zipped Past Your Head at 800mph.

[Overseas]

74. I expect that he will apologize to the transgender community for that remark.

It really stood out from his normally much more intelligent commentaries.

[wryter2000]

81. Exactly

We all put our feet in our mouths from time to time. I'm sure he'll make this right.

[Catherine Vincent]

77. First off let me say that I do not like Ann Coulter

What comes out of her mouth is trash most of the time. But I actually thinks she isn't bad looking at all and she does not look like a man. She is very ugly on the inside though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. She's Contemptible But There Are Better Ways Of Putting Her Down Than To Suggest She's Transgendered

I'm surprised so many otherwise progressive folks miss this. It has everything to do with the sensibilities od transgendered folks and nothing to do with Ann Coulter.

[Catherine Vincent]

96. You're right.

He responded in kind to Ann Coulter unfortunately.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. Think About It

Making fun of somebody's sexuality or gender orientation is not a progressive value. That's why a contemptible person like Ms. Coulter obsesseively engages in it. When "one of us" engage in it we are descending to their level. But we are not "fighting fire with fire" because by engaging in that behavior we are suggesting such things are target for ridcule.

That's the problem I have with this.

[hedgehog]

82. You know, all in all, Olbermann would have been better off

if he'd just used the "coals of fire" technique (Romans 12:20).

For example, imagine him broadcasting the video of Ann Coulter making her remarks, then just mentioning his mother died last year, and asking what harm Rachel Maddow has ever done to Ann? Or maybe ask what Maddow's orientation has to do with anything?

[TransitJohn]

90. facepalm facepalm facepalm

Why do people persist on not critically examining what Keith actually said, and realize it wasn't a bash on the transgendered?

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

99. Yup, gay people and Homeless people are fair game!

Heaven forbid anyone would be BOTH gay and homeless!

Oh wait... there are Many who are both....:(

[madinmaryland]

102. Do you have the transcript of what he said. My wife muted the TV

just as that came on, and I never got back to watching it.

Thank you.

[Political Heretic]

109. I stand with my LGBT brothers and sisters on this (and hopefully everything else)

:patriot:

Oh how I wish that little guy had a rainbow flag :D

EDIT - I guess I have to add... I stand with you about the hypocrisy of standards. And I think Keith should apologize, or better yet CHANGE his MO, seeing as how sexism of jokes at the expense transgendered persons are nothing new.

But resign? I'm not ready to call for that step.

[Kitsune]

110. I'm glad to see that people are still talking about this.

I'm not so glad to see that there are still a lot of people, even here, that don't seem to understand why this sort of 'humor' isn't acceptable.

I wrote a not-angry-but-pretty-disappointed email to the show last night. Here's hoping they got enough to convince them to offer a retraction or at least steer well clear of 'jokes' like this in the future.

[Maru Kitteh]

111. K & R

[bliss_eternal]

114. hmmmm, apparently i missed something....

....last i checked o'reilly, limbaugh and coulter have made careers out of saying incredibly bigoted, insensitive things about ethnic people (racial jokes). sometimes they aren't even jokes, but broad brushed comments (stereotypes) they believe to be fact. not one has been in "huge trouble" for what they say in this regard (to my knowledge). do correct me if i'm wrong. in fact, isn't imus employed again (as many predicted he would be, after the controversy died down)?

i agree that lgbt issues in the media are *not* treated appropriately. this definitely deserves attention.

but kindly (and respectfully), the premise of your op is flawed (and rather divisive), imo. it's unnecessary to compare society's handling of slurs against other groups. the fact that any one would say something insensitive about a human being that is glbt *is* offensive. period. 'nuff said.