Folks, if you get angry and just can't take it anymore, don't take innocents with you

[Taverner]

I just read Stark's suicide note, and if true damn he was screwed over. His ire may have been pointed to the IRS, but he blames capitalism just as much.

But any sympathy I may have had for him has gone up in flames now that he has taken innocent lives.

SO...Do you want to make a statement? I got a statement - one that practically ended a war:



Yep, no innocent lives taken. Of course that's a horrific way to go, and about as painful as flying a plane into a building.

Now I'm not saying we should all commit suicide like the Vietnamese monk did.

BUT if you're going to make a life-or-death statement like Timothy McVeigh and Stark did, keep it to yourself.

And if you're not up for sacrifice, there's always this method:

[Ozymanithrax]

1. It appears to be a new form of suicide by cop...

[vadawg]

4. yup and if you wantto die dont make me be the one who has to whack you

just find a bridge somewhere and jump into an unoccupied area, thanks..

[Arctic Dave]

12. Suicide by cop? How were the cops involved in this? Other then to cordon of the scene.

[KansDem]

13. I think Ozy was referring to individuals who commit suicide..

...by pulling a gun on a cop. The cop fires and kills the "perp," only to discover the gun wasn't loaded, or it was a toy gun, etc.

I think the meaning is: if you're going to commit suicide, then don't pull someone else in with you, especially if you want that person to do it for you...

[Arctic Dave]

20. This is more of a murder, suicide.

The rational is, I'm going to take as many as the offending party as possible with me.

[KansDem]

30. True,

The rational is, I'm going to take as many as the offending party as possible with me.

With the economy the way it is, perhaps it's time to reinstate the mental-health programs cut some 30 years ago. I have a feeling a lot more people are having similar thoughts as Mr. Stack.

[seabeyond]

2. i have been on like 8 threads and looked at cnn hearing nothing about deaths

people in the building died? gonna keep looking. thanks

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Last I heard they're still fighting the fire and trying to account for everyone

who was supposed to be there. No reports of bodies found yet, thankfully.

[seabeyond]

8. ah, thanks. took a nap. almost refuse to turn on tv. appreciate. nt

[Control-Z]

61. Same here.

Haven't heard about any deaths. There is also a thread about him lighting his house on fire with the wife and daughter inside. I heard from many new sources that they had left the house very early that morning, after a fight.

[Ian David]

3. See also: Malachi Ritscher and Andrew Veal

See also: Malachi Ritscher and Andrew Veal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3058107&mesg_id=3058194

(Chicago activist) Malachi burns himself alive to protest Iraq war
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2766634

[uppityperson]

9. RIP Malachi

[arcadian]

5. You got a link?

To the report that people had died.

[seabeyond]

6. so no one died. i jsut got up to this story and was looking and not seeing

could not believe no one was talking about deaths that happended. can believe they werent talking about it if deaths didnt happen. amkes more sense

[Blue Diadem]

23. I've been hearing one person who worked in the building is missing.

Two were injured with burns from what I gathered.

[seabeyond]

36. thanks for the info. nt

[Posteritatis]

62. If someone flies a plane into an occupied building they're trying to kill people inside it. (nt)

[Arctic Dave]

10. You're right. You should just take i the rear like a good worker bee and when

you finally get pissed off at the people doing it to you, go in a corner and off yourself.

It sounds like this guy tried to work inside the system and got nowhere. I am not condoning his actions but at some point someone will snap at this is just one way of it happening.

[Spazito]

14. No, he wasn't working inside the system...

He was a rabid anti-tax advocate who didn't pay his taxes, got caught, blamed it on everyone and everything but himself and then did his best to take as many lives with him. POS asshole, period.

[Arctic Dave]

18. You know this how?

From his post he makes the clam that he tried to work in the system. That is what I am going off of, were are you getting your info?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. It's in his manifesto.

[Spazito]

22. From his post...

"My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them."

He didn't pay his taxes, belonged to one of the rabid anti-tax organizations of the 80s, got caught cheating, his "little lesson in patriotism" cost him $40,000+. Cheating on one's taxes is "patriotic", really?

[Arctic Dave]

31. He is saying he used the same codes that large corporations use and was

denied.

"We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done."

[Spazito]

35. No, he didn't pay his taxes, the usual scam was to insist they were tax-exempt...

like the churches, hence the rant against the Catholic Church, and because the scam didn't work he is a 'victim', hardly. Again, he was a rabid anti-tax advocate who got caught cheating at least once, probably more re his wife's income, etc, and decided to take out as many people, including his own family by setting his house on fire while they were IN it.

Nothing but a POS. The good news is the teabaggers are claiming him as someone just like them! Good!

[truedelphi]

40. Please show me the law that states that we little, ill-earning

Wage slaves are legally liable to pay our wages to this corrupt monster called the United States Treasury Department?

The amendment that involves the income tax was never fully ratified. And the wording in the "law" is such that you see clearly stated: Income tax is a voluntary tax.

And although the "official" interpretation of the word "voluntary" means: pay up or we will put you in jail, or force you to pay such heinous penalties that you would be better off dead, that doesn't mean the law is legal.

I side with Ron Paul on this one - "Pay your taxes, not because they are legally mandated, but because you will be in trouble BIG TIME if you don't."

[Spazito]

43. Wow, your post is a postcard for many of the arguments put forward...

by the rabid anti-tax advocates! "wage slaves" "never fully ratified" "voluntary tax"

Damn, I just researched the arguments the rabid anti-tax advocates use and found your post's arguments with all the 'key' words:

Anti-Tax Law Evasion Schemes - Talking Points

I. Compensation Argument

Wages, tips and other compensation received for personal services are not income because there is allegedly no taxable gain when a person "exchanges" labor for money.

The Truth: The Internal Revenue Code defines gross income as income from whatever source derived and includes compensation for services.

II. Internal Revenue Code Arguments

(1) There is no Internal Revenue Code that imposes taxes;
(2) Only "individuals" are required to pay taxes; or
(3) The IRS can only assess taxes against people who file returns.

The Truth: The tax law is found in Title 26 of the United States Code. The requirement to file an income tax return is not voluntary and it is clearly set forth in the Internal Revenue Code (IRC) Sections 6011(a), 6012(a), et seq., and 6072(a). Our system of taxation allows taxpayers to determine the correct amount of tax and complete the appropriate forms "voluntarily" rather than have the government do it for them. However, any taxpayer whose income falls below the statutory amount, does not have to file a return.

III. Sixteenth Amendment Argument

The Constitutional Amendment establishing the basis for income tax was never properly ratified.

The Truth: The Sixteenth Amendment was properly ratified in 1913, and it states "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

IV. Constitutional Argument

Filing a Form 1040 violates the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination or the Fourth Amendment right to privacy.

The Truth: The courts have consistently held that disclosure of the type of routine financial information required on a tax return does not incriminate an individual or violate the right to privacy.

V. Religious Arguments

Individuals invoke the Freedom of Religion clause of the First Amendment by taking a vow of poverty or by fraudulently claiming charitable contributions of 50% or more of their adjusted gross income.

The Truth: Taking a purported vow of poverty or claiming fraudulent contributions to filter income through a church is not legal. Many fraudulent religious organizations use funds for personal expenses.

VI. Forming a Trust Argument

Forming a business trust to hold your income and assets will avoid taxes. A family estate trust will allow you to reduce or eliminate your tax liability.

The Truth: Although there are legitimate trusts and legitimate reasons why individuals establish trusts, establishing a trust, foreign or domestic, for the sole purpose of hiding your income and assets from taxation is illegal and will not absolve you of your tax liability. The underlying claims for many "untaxing" trust packages rely on other frivolous arguments--arguments that have subjected promoters, as well as willing participants, to criminal penalties.


Some American citizens use these and other clever arguments advocating non-compliance with the tax laws. Don't be misled. Inspect their promotional material carefully. Aside from being false and misleading, you will notice the materials often contain elaborate disclaimers such as "this report is offered as vehicle for discussion and debate and for general informational purposes only. It does not constitute legal or professional advice and should not be relied on as a substitute for proper research and inquiries into original sources of authority." Actually, many of these promoters don't even follow their own advice but choose to pay their own taxes.

The IRS will:
(1) Assist taxpayers who have been misled to correct their returns; and
(2) Vigorously pursue prosecution and prison sentences for individuals who violate the tax laws.
Note: This page contains one or more references to the Internal Revenue Code (IRC), Treasury Regulations, court cases


http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106509,00.html

[truedelphi]

50. No where in my post did I say I was establishing a trust or doing anything to

Avoid the taxes that I will be forced to pay one way or another should I not pay,.

I simply said that the tax law is not legal.
Watch the Aaron Russo "From Freedom to Fasiscm" video and then get back to me.

And by the way, the people who I have met who are so fervently set out to talk about the tax law as if it is legal, and as if it is a fair tax, these people fall inot several small groups

1) They live in California,and they paid fifteen cents on the dollar for the mansion that they now live in - but owe nothing much in way of taxes cuz Prop 13 is the law of the land here in California. (And everyone knows that real estate, even in these depressed times, is one of the few real sources of wealth.)

2) They receive their yearly max on gifts from a legal trust or from relatives, currently up to 12K.

[Spazito]

51. LOL, if you will note I stated "many" not 'all' of your points were to be found...

in the scams attempted by the rabid anti-tax advocates. I am relieved you found ONE of the cases I cited didn't 'fit', lol. The vast majority of Americans pay their taxes, albeit with grumbles, and do NOT try to evade them or consider them illegal. They consider them too high instead which is a whole other argument and not related to the anti-tax (taxes are illegal) advocates, imo.

[truedelphi]

60. Peopkehere in the USA do not simply grumble because the taxes are high

They grumble because they are unjust.

For instance, not only is the USA the only "civilized" nation in the world that does not provide Universal Single Payer HC for its people, unless the payments that you make for your medical bills exceed seven percent of your income, you don't even get to deduct them.

Our tax system right now is totally regressive. The hedge fund managers pay 15% of their income, while making tens of millions, while the school teacher and garbage collector pay 18% or more.

Due to how high the purchase prices of homes are these days, many
And like Kurt Vonnegut was fond of saying, "and so it goes..."

[CBR]

16. Somehow most of us manage not to off other people... nt

[Arctic Dave]

19. Most do, as you point out. Him and others, don't. n/t

[CBR]

26. That is why he deserves NO sympathy... nt

[Arctic Dave]

32. You are a good little worker bee.

We know we don't ever have to worry about any waves from you.

[Maru Kitteh]

24. What an asshole . . .

this guy was. He certainly was not trying to "work inside the system" PLUS he tried to off his wife and a 12 year-old LITTLE GIRL in his grand flame out.

Fuck him. I hope his death was very, very painful.

[Taverner]

33. Didn't hear that part

Not that I had any sympathy for him, but WOW - that's fucked up

Got a link?

[Arctic Dave]

34. He probably died instantly. Sorry to disappoint you.

And yes, the guy went off the deep end.

[xynthee]

38. According to MSNBC, wife and daughter weren't in the house, thankfully.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35460268

snip:

House fire
Elbert Hutchins, who lives one house away from Stack's home in a quiet, tree-lined middle-class neighborhood, said the house caught fire about 9:15 a.m. He said a woman and her teenage daughter drove up before firefighters arrived.

"They both were very, very distraught," said Hutchins, a retiree who said he didn't know the family well. "'That's our house!' they cried 'That's our house!' "

[Oregone]

11. Auto-erotic asphyxiation is the ONLY way to go

:)

[Mnemosyne]

25. Oh,

:spank:

[cbdo2007]

15. Luckily this guy couldn't even do THAT right!! I'm amazed there weren't more injuries or

deaths due to this but thank God there wasn't.

[Better Today]

17. "innocents" unfortunately is defined individually, and it is

up for debate, imo, whether this guy considered those he put at risk as "innocent".

[Maru Kitteh]

28. And the 12 year-old little girl he purposefully attempted to murder today?

How about this then? If you must kill yourself leave other human beings out of it. Period.

[Better Today]

39. You're free to your opinion, and I'm sure you and I would relatively

agree as to who is an "innocent," but it is nonetheless an individual judgment call, so simply suggesting leaving innocents out of it is shallow. Your response "leave other human beings" is more to the point and not open to individual judgment.

[Maru Kitteh]

27. Recommended. If you must end it all, leave others out of it.

[Better Believe It]

29. If you can't take it anymore and can't fight back just leave the country and go someplace

where you think you'll be much happier.

Canada, Cuba, Venezuela, France, wherever.

Just pick up and go.

But, don't kill innocents or engage in any kind of terrorism. That's plays into the establishments hands.

[Spazito]

37. Ummm, don't suggest Canada to followers of this piece of rabid...

anti-tax advocate. I did find your suggested list of countries to be rather....telling. Why did you choose the countries you did?

[Better Believe It]

53. And what do you think the list told you about me?

[Spazito]

54. Hmmm, nowhere in your post do I see your rationale for choosing...

those particular countries. I do, however, see a glaring red herring. I will repeat my question why did you choose those particular countries?

[Better Believe It]

55. Ahhhhh .... now I understand .... a "red herring"! Well, I'm not a fish so I must be one of

those red pinko lefties!

Why else would anyone suggest moving to the comminist nations of Canada, Cuba, Venezuela, France and wherever?

[Spazito]

57. Still no rationale for choosing those countries I see...

only even more red herrings, not surprising.

[Better Believe It]

58. Why do you hate France, Canada and Cuba?

:)

[Spazito]

59. Very pathetic attempt to change the subject....

I don't blame you under the circumstances.

:rofl:

[Better Believe It]

63. I like Canada, France and Cuba.

But I'm not leaving.

[Better Believe It]

56. Ahhhhh .... now I understand .... a "red herring"! Well, I'm not a fish so I must be one of

those red pinko lefties!

Why else would anyone suggest moving to the comminist nations of Canada, Cuba, Venezuela, France and wherever?

[Fuzz]

41. If you want to start a revolution, target the guilty?

[Taverner]

42. Sure, if you want lots of dead and mailmed people afterwards

But if you want a change of power, do it without violence

[lpbk2713]

44. You're talking to the wrong crowd.

Tell it to BeKKK's listeners.

[heli]

45. Good thing he didn't attack the regional IRS office across town

There are thousands of IRS employees working in that huge complex off IH-35 in South Austin.

[Taverner]

48. Why didn't he attack that office?

[heli]

49. Perhaps because it looks like a fortress?

[BootinUp]

46. This country has far too many of these incidents

our society and its priorities are just f'd up.

[Taverner]

47. Violence is the problem

Just have to stop the violence...of course that in itself is impossible

[Mike K]

52. Such a tragic waste of murderous rage.

Like McVeigh, this fellow could have put his suicidal rage to considerably destructive use without harming any innocents. But their frame of mind doesn't seem to harbor any such concern, which is interesting.

Anyone have any thoughts about why?