Baptists, bibliophiles, and bibles, Oh My!

[Fumesucker]

http://www.floatingsheep.org/2009/11/where-is-intellect.html

Two powerful and often opposing forces within society are faith and reason. Regardless of the extent to which a cultural war exists, the balance between the two (e.g., teaching evolution in the schools, etc.) is a prominent feature of popular socio-political discourse in the United States. Thus, the topics makes a perfect subject of a map and leads us to ask which parts of the country prefer bookstores to bibles? What's the ratio of Baptists to bibliophiles?

Using the number of Google Maps directory listings<1> for "bookstores" and "churches" as proxy values, this visualization maps the spectrum of the faith and reason conflict. As there are an overwhelmingly larger number of churches than bookstores nationwide it is important to index each of these variables before comparison. The technique used in this map was to divide the number of churches (or bookstores) at a location by the national average of churches or bookstores. If a location had twice the number of churches as the national average it would receive an indexed value of 2. Similarly having only 50 percent of the national average of bookstores would produce an indexed value of 0.5. The church index was then divided by the bookstore index to see each locations relative balance of churches to bookstores. If each of the indexed values were the same, the faith-reason index would be equal to 1. But as in the case of the example above (church index = 2, bookstore index = 0.5) the faith-reason index would be 4. This indicates that this particular location has a much higher relative number of churches to bookstores. In order to exclude places that had approximately equal number of churches and bookstores, this map only includes locations where the faith-reason index was skewed more than 20 percent in either direction (i.e., values greater than 1.2).

For the most part, the relative prevalence of bookstores occurs in and around the big cities - Los Angeles, California is the site of the highest indexed value, and is joined by the megalopolis of the eastern seaboard as having the highest concentrations in favor of bookstores. Even cities such as Atlanta, nestled in the Bible Belt of the American southeast, tend towards a relatively large number of bookstores. On the converse, other large cities like Dallas, San Antonio and Houston continue to favor churches, with New Orleans (the largest city in Louisiana) having the highest relative concentration of churches in the nation. Suburban areas surrounding large population centers also show a near-universal favoritism for churches.

So while there appears to be no single variable determining the local trends toward faith or reason, it is evident that even some of the most common assumptions regarding the geographies of faith and reason have proven to be more complicated; not all large cities are necessarily bookish, but neither is the bible belt a homogeneous geographic unit.

[JackintheGreen]

1. If there are no bookstores, where do they buy their bibles? n/t

[Fumesucker]

5. It is the *relative* number of bookstores vs churches..

Which is why big areas of the map are blank.

The technique used in this map was to divide the number of churches (or bookstores) at a location by the national average of churches or bookstores. If a location had twice the number of churches as the national average it would receive an indexed value of 2. Similarly having only 50 percent of the national average of bookstores would produce an indexed value of 0.5. The church index was then divided by the bookstore index to see each locations relative balance of churches to bookstores. If each of the indexed values were the same, the faith-reason index would be equal to 1.

[JackintheGreen]

24. Farmout got it...

Humor FAIL. Now I am ashamed.

[Fumesucker]

27. Don't be ashamed... Anything but the most blatant humor is hard to convey on line..

And equally easy to miss..

;)

Edited to add: And if you read the rest of the thread you'll see I have had to explain the map multiple times already..

[pipi_k]

29. Like someone else said...no need to be ashamed...

At least you didn't have a whole gang of people calling you "stupid" or something.


:+

[pipi_k]

7. Don't know if you're serious or not, but...

it's not like there are no bookstores, just that there are more churches than bookstores.

[farmout rightarm]

17. Motel nightstands.

:rofl:

[Fumesucker]

19. Gideon checked out, and he left it no doubt

To help with good Rocky's revival..

[YOY]

2. I wonder how they counted those "Christian" bookstores.

The ones that sell books that I laugh at.

[Fumesucker]

6. Makes the results for much of the country even more pathetic, eh? n/t

[JHB]

9. From the explanation of methodology, looks like they counted them as bookstores...

...which would skew results in a survey using bookstores vs. churches as a proxy for reason vs. faith.

I would add that "New Age"-type bookstores would also skew results for the same reasons, though the geographical distribution would likely differ.

[pipi_k]

10. There was only one time I was thankful for the Christian bookstores

and that was when Mr P and I were trying to sell our home which had been on the market for a long time back in 1995.

So we went to a Christian bookstore and got a St Joseph statuette which we stuck into a coffee can and buried in the front yard, as per instructions.


:7

[RainDog]

14. omg!! a miracle

I always heard you were supposed to bury st. anthony.

(the baptists hate all those saints, btw, so you didn't get that at a baptist bookstore.)

[pipi_k]

28. Apparently, buried saints have the power to

attract people right off the streets.

That's how we finally sold the house...some people just happened to be driving by, and POOF!

:7



Not being a Catholic myself, I don't know much about what the various saints' jobs are, but some places actually sell St Joseph Home Selling "kits".

Here's one:

http://www.stjosephstatue.com/?g&gclid=COiksYeo_J8CFag65QodxVWfkg



Before I found out about what St Joseph can do for homesellers, I had always thought he was the Patron Saint of children's aspirin...

who knew...

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. That might be a better benchmark -

I know I never even saw a 'christian bookstore' before I moved to the south. And that was after living in Missouri and Nebraska, which are hardly hotbeds of liberalism.

Not the ratio of churches to bookstore, but christian bookstores to real bookstores.

[HillWilliam]

54. The thing that throws me

is that in NC any one of those Christian book stores is never more than a half-mile away from three dirty-book stores. Apparently, they buy their bibles to beat other people with. They go to those other stores to get stuff to beat their own... uh, not to lock the thread. :D

[mmonk]

3. One indicator not considered is diversity.

Some cities may have more churches due to a complex mixture of different types.

[Swamp Rat]

12. Like New Orleans

For example, on St. Charles Ave. you'll find a Catholic church next to a synagog next to a library next to a Presbyterian church next to another library next to an Episcopal church next to bookstore next to a Catholic church, all within 2 miles on a single street (not including smaller churches and cafes and school libraries on parallel and side streets).

Plus, the attitude here is way more tolerant than places 100+ miles to the North, also known as the South. :D

[mmonk]

16. Yes. That is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Fumesucker]

18. You would think quasi rural Georgia where I live would not have a diversity..

But we have churches in schools (yes, literally), strip centers and on damn near every street corner..

People have to be able to find a church that accommodates their particular kind of sinning..

[mmonk]

25. .

:spray:

Of course that isn't exactly what my point is. If a city has a large transient population with people from all areas of the US and different countries, there will be houses of worship geared to those populations as opposed to just an homogenous one as well as due to that diversity, there may be more churches or related houses of worship than book stores since bookstores serve the whole population as opposed to various segments.

[GreenStormCloud]

4. What about Amazon?

We rarely go to a brick-n-mortar bookstore, but buy lots of books from Amazon.

Also, many bookstores are specifically religious bookstores.

[Fumesucker]

8. What about the 700 Club?

Not everyone goes to church to worship, either..

[GreenStormCloud]

44. True. Almost every nursing home has church services, also. N/T

[The_Commonist]

11. I think that chart is bullshit.

I live in probably one of the 5 most liberal places on the planet.
Brooklyn probably has the highest percentage of writers and authors of anywhere.
All of my friends are readers, I've got shelves and shelves of books.
And yet... there are only 3 bookstores within a reasonable distance, and dozens of churches.
Same with the other neighborhoods in the boro that I'm familiar with.
A few bookstores, and a shit ton of churches.
In fact, I even have a project in mind that I might pursue this spring.
A book of photographs of every single church in Brooklyn.
I'm reluctant because it would be such a huge undertaking.
And there wouldn't be very many places locally that would sell it...

[Swamp Rat]

13. Same in New Orleans

We even share a dialect, dawlin'. :D

Edit: I have a couple vintage instruments I like to jam on too. ;)

[The_Commonist]

32. N'awlins, eh?

My wife is from Bogalusa.
If you find yourself on vacation from the Big Easy in the Big Apple, come on over and jam!

[Fumesucker]

15. The map does not purport to indicate "liberalism"..

But rather the difference from the average ratio of bookstores to churches in the USA.

Yes, there are more churches than bookstores (where I live damn near infinitely more) but what the map is showing is where the church/bookstore ratio is either higher or lower than the national average.

[PADemD]

20. Were libraries included in the study?

[Fumesucker]

21. Libraries were not mentioned so I assume not..

It's my guess that places with lots of bookstores tend to have a high concentration of libraries also.

[defendandprotect]

52. Libraries are underfunded and shorter hours - in Steinbecks' hometown, library closed!

My library thrives -- but over a dozen years, many religious books added to the

shelves -- we're subsidizing religion at the library!

And those books prevent $ being spent on other information which citizens need.

[d_r]

30. faith and reason

using the number of churches and the number of bookstores as proxies for faith and reason has pretty limited utility; I think they overpunted their coverage.

[Fumesucker]

34. I'm sure you can do better..

I'll be awaiting your map with bated breath..

[d_r]

47. OK

This isn't the same question, but it is using publicly available data. There is an obvious flaw to it, I'm sure you can find it, but I did do a better job of using openly available indicators.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/content_storage_01/0000019b/80/42/9e/5f.pdf

More recently I've done the same sort of thing with corporal punishments in schools, I'm a little happier with that actually, but I haven't put it out yet. But in that, states that allow corporal punishment have lower high school graduation rates are controlled, even when the percentage of economically disandvantaged and ESL students are controlled.

I just don't really think that the number of bookstores listed in the phonebook is that good of a proxy for "reason." But that's just me.

[Fumesucker]

48. I doubt there is any perfect proxy for "reason"..

But I'd be willing to bet a substantial sum that you'd have fewer evolution and global climate change deniers in areas that have a substantial number of bookstores than you will in areas with a dearth of bookstores.

And once again, this map does not relate to the absolute number of bookstores but rather to the bookstore/church ratio as compared to the national average.

It's well known that political orientation of a state has a correlation with education as well as divorce rates and unwed pregnancy.

But then correlation does not imply causation, does it?

[d_r]

49. OK. I"m sorry but I just don't get the point then

And that's probably just me. Here try this link, I think maybe this is consistent with what you are looking for also:

http://religions.pewforum.org/maps

[Fumesucker]

51. I'm not sure there really was a point but it's an interesting observation...

To note the radical regional differences in bookstore/church ratio, I think it correlates fairly well with things like evolution denial.

I've seen the Pew maps you pointed me to before, but thanks for the effort anyway..

[spoony]

37. Indeed, a failed study from a failed presumption. nt

[Fumesucker]

38. And what is the failed presumption?

[spoony]

39. Why are you sitting on this thread with that chip on your shoulder?

Are you so heavily invested in this crap that you must lambaste everyone who disagrees with it? The failed presumption is that the number of churches versus bookstores is indicative of anything about the people in a location, and that is on the failed presumption that churchgoers don't read or vice versa. It's preposterous silliness.

[Fumesucker]

41. Umm.. It's my thread..

And your own chip is considerably larger than my own..

So you think the number of bookstores in a community has no bearing on the intelligence of that community?

I live in the deep south in a very red county, we have *zero* bookstores in my county and more churches than you can shake an entire forest at.

Edited to add: And this thread is yet another example of how faith and education are often (not always by any means) at odds with each other.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7739537

[The_Commonist]

33. Yeah, I see what they're trying to do.

The metrics are complicated and arbitrary.
It also completely ignores the internet, which might be where most people buy their books.
I wonder if there's a better way to chart "Faith vs. Reason"?
Probably not...

[Fumesucker]

35. But internet buying might be fairly evenly spread..

I honestly don't have any idea but when I talked to the single bookstore owner in my county about ten years ago, shortly before he went out of business, he said opening a bookstore in a county with a 40% illiteracy rate was not a smart business move.

[8 track mind]

22. I have to agree

Looking at the location of my home town in Texas, it doesn't even show up on the map. There is a church on almost every street in a town of 25000. This chart is waaaaaay innaccurate.

[Fumesucker]

26. All that means is that your home town is close to the average church/bookstore ratio..

For the entire USA..

This map is representation of where the church/bookstore ratio *differs* one way or the other from the US average.

[8 track mind]

42. Ooohhhh ok

8 track mind regrets the error

[Fumesucker]

43. I love your screen name..

I'm a reel to reel mind in a digital world myself. :)

[8 track mind]

55. Thanks!

I have a couple of functioning reel to reels. A 1966 mono Sony Tapecorder, and a rack mount pioneer

[PufPuf23]

31. Should have added libraries to bookstores

and subtracted Christian and bookstores of other faiths.

Books for me; I'm a book junkie, best jones of my life.

[Fumesucker]

36. Perhaps, although I think that most areas with many bookstores also have many libraries..

And visa versa..

This was an automated search and map, keeping Christian bookstores out would be difficult because they don't always have "Christian" in the name..

[Javaman]

40. Keeping them dumb to control them.

"what floats?"

"little rocks?"

[cbdo2007]

45. I don't really think this map tells us anything.

Just that there are more bookstores than churches in big cities I guess? Seems like just a population study or even a study of where Applees Restaurants are located would turn out the same way.

Of course there are less bookstores where there are churches. Churches typically only serve 100-500 people probably whereas bookstores will be positioned to serve many thousands.

[Fumesucker]

46. Dallas, Miami, Orlando, Tampa and New Orleans are not big cities?

And you missed the fact that this map is of difference from the average church/bookstore ratio of the USA, blue spots means more bookstores than the average and red ones means more churches than the average.

Note that the only place with a higher than average bookstore to church ratio in the entire state of Florida is in Gainesville, which is hardly a large city, but it does have the University of Florida there.

[defendandprotect]

50. We subsidize CHURCHES -- we don't subsidize bookstores -- !!

Bookstores are disappearing even in the NE --

there isn't one bookstore in the Short Hills Mall any longer, for instance!

We have a neighborhood bookstore which will get you any book -- without discount --

but stocks very little of interest.



PS: And my library, beginning about 12 years ago, seems to have been taken over by

religious interests -- with the religous books increasing year after year.

Many of us seemed to have pushed for a counter opinion, but we're still spending $$

on religious books vs other non-fiction which deprives citizens of information, of course.

[Fumesucker]

53. That's all true..

And unfortunate.

And sad.