I think NOT getting an abortion for a 14, 15, or 16 yr. old is child abuse

[ensho]

how mean of parents to force a child to become a mother. when said child still needs mothering.

[vadawg]

1. un recced because i totally disagree with you...

:)

[ensho]

you disagree because of your religion? or some other reason?

nt

[vadawg]

4. dosent matter what the reason is, i disagree with you.

someone who is 14, 15 or 16 isnt neccessarily a child...

[ensho]

12. what do you mean? "isn't neccessarily a child"

by every law they are children. (some states allow 16 yr. olds to marry even though they aren't 'finished
cooking' as Judge Judy would say.)

[niceypoo]

32. Legally they are children

Physically they are adults.

[vadawg]

39. and only legally in some societies, natural law will always trump mans law

if a girl can get pregnant then her body is mature enough to get pregnant whether people like it or not, and at what age does someone get to make decisions for themselves..

[CoffeeCat]

76. Yes, a girl can get pregnant...

...but that certainly isn't the marker for when someone is "mature" or even capable of
making decisions like this.

I'd just like to point out that very young girls get their periods. I got mine at ten. That
doesn't mean that they are emotionally mature. Teenagers brains are still developing, and they
lack the cognitive ability to make decisions as full-grown adults do. Their neurons are still
connecting!

This whole line of thinking is dangerous--because many pedophiles "adultify" children in order to
justify victimizing children. I'm not saying that you're arguing for that, but I feel the need to
step in and say that just because a young girl is menstruating, that does
not mean that she is mature nor is she capable of making very grown up decisions--especially
regarding sexual behavior.

And if there is a grown man in the picture--making erroneous assumptions and justifications for
victimizing young girls and teenage girls--then the situation is even worse. Adults understand
the ramifications of sex. They possess adult knowledge of sexuality and sexual behavior. Young
children can NEVER do that, and young teens certainly don't have the sophisticated knowledge
that a grown adult does.

Just thought I would make those points. It's never ok for an adult to "adultify" a child in their
own minds--in order to justify any sexual behavior with that child. It's illegal for good reason.
Children cannot consent, because they lack the intellectual, emotional and cognitive capacity to do so--whereas
adults have power with children because they have those capabilities.

Again, I'm not saying that you were advocating this. However, the conversation walks up to that line--and
just in case any adult wants them to delude themselves into believing that sexual behavior with children
is ok--they need to be corrected. Cuz it's not and never is.

[ensho]

79. nowadays we have the problem of man made hormones making girls

bleed at horrifically young ages.

that has to be taken into context. nothing about today is like it was yesteryear.

[vadawg]

87. lol yeah like no one ever had babies at a young age back in the day..

i hate to tell you but women were having babies for thousands of years at an early age, its only more recently that older mothers have become more normal.

[OrwellwasRight]

145. yep, and the culture was different then too.

There weren't laws against child labor and it was normal for 14 year olds to get married and live on their own. They were brought up to do that. Today's kids aren't. Do you not think that modern culture has had an impact on socio-cultural, economic, and emotional development?

[ensho]

187. before man made hormones it wasn't unusual for a girl to be 14 or

15 yrs. old when starting to bleed.

the age of bleeding as gone lower and lower down thru the decades.

there was the time in Mex. when beef breeders had put so much hormones in the meat infants were bleeding. really!.

[paulsby]

104. correct . however onset of menses at, for example 16

was common long before the advent of environmental estrogens.

a 11 or 12 yr old is another story.

the op referenced 14,15, and 16

[Fire1]

134. SO true! I've said that on this board many times. Not just

"bleed" but physically develop well beyond their years.

[arcadian]

136. Youngest pregnancy is at 5 years old

That was in the 1930s

[Fleshdancer]

168. how old do you think girls are when they start their periods?

Most girls get their periods around the age of 12. I was 10. No way in hell my body was mature enough to carry at that age. Just because a female is old enough to drop an egg every month, it doesn't mean the rest of her reproductive organs (and pelvis) are mature enough to safely carry and labor a baby.

[Hepburn]

217. +1

Having a baby at that young age can cause a lot of trauma to a young body...and that is besides the mental trauma that usually happens.

[OrwellwasRight]

71. Mentally? Emotionally?

Able to get a job and support themselves and their child? Asking an American 14 year old in 2010 to be an adult is asking a lot. The ones that seem to be the most like "adults" at 14 probably are not the ones getting pregnant or at least wanting to be pregnant if they were.

[ensho]

77. yes, smart, educated, mentally stable teens don't get preg. unless raped

nt

[proteus_lives]

197. That's just not true.

Smart and stable people make mistakes. Birth control fails. Lots of things can happen.

[blueamy66]

151. What????

just cause they "can" get pregnat, they are adults????

[Captain Hilts]

30. Call us when you get pregnant. nt

[vadawg]

34. i will without doubt....

[Captain Hilts]

37. I seriously doubt you will get pregnant. nt

[vadawg]

41. then why ask me to contact you if i do...

[Captain Hilts]

50. Because you don't have a dog in this fight. I'm sick of men in VA telling women

what to do.

[vadawg]

56. why not i have a daughter, i have siblings who gave birth at early ages

whos telling you what to do, seems its the original poster who is telling women or girls what they can do, and you seem to have a problem with people not doing what you tell them to do...

[Captain Hilts]

61. And I have kin that were drafted into the military. But I don't tell them what to do when

the call comes.

You'll never get pregnant.

I'll never get drafted.

[vadawg]

65. and that means that i cant have an opinion on something about birth in the same way as you cant have

an opinion on anything to do with war etc.. your reasoning makes no sense.

[Hosnon]

101. Wasn't there an entire thread the other day about abortion being a male issue too?

I think a big back and forth was whether any female DUers tell male DUers that it's none of their business either way.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

219. Why are you climbing all over this poster?

He's not the one telling women they need to get abortions based on his value judgements.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

46. Weird statement n/t

[vadawg]

48. why a wierd statement, simply put just because you are 15 or 16 it dosent mean you are a child

this is a very US centered thing, in a large swarth of the planet adulthood is achieved much earlier than in the US..

[spiritual_gunfighter]

52. It is weird

because it reminds me of something a child predator might say, not saying you are one, but your reasoning is similar. Weird statement.

[vadawg]

62. no its something that people the world over would say, most societies would consider a 16 year old

especially adult enough to make decisions for themselves and in some societies 14years old is old enough... and biologically humans mature at different rates by the time i was 15 i was the same size and development as i am now.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

67. Again

that kind of mentality usually is the kind of reasoning someone who preys on children might say. In our society teenagers are considered children until they are 18 or 17 in some states. You can get philosophical about it if you wish, but most people would agree that anyone under the age of 18 is a child. Our laws protect them for that very reason.

[vadawg]

75. as you said in your society, but your society is not the only society even within the borders of the

US, all im saying is that you can argue all day long but an arbitrary number like 18 does not mean that everyone under that age is still a kid, i get what you are saying that legally they may be but biologically and by the standards of a hell of a lot of other cultures and societys they are not..

[unabelladonna]

123. when in rome....

i don't know what YOUR society condones but when you live in the US you follow our laws and our customs. if you choose not to...then fine. leave.

[dsc]

102. It is also the reasoning that prosecutors use when the kids commit crimes

but that wasn't as sleezy an example so I guess that is why you chose not to use it.

[paulsby]

107. the age of consent is (used to be until recently ) 14 in hawaii

and is 16 in many states. in canada, it is 14.

if a girl is old enough to consnet to sex, then by definition it's hard to argue they were 'preyed upon'

regardless, i really take issue with you attacking this person because you think their reasoning is akin to a person who preys on children.

i've dealt with, for example,a 15 yr old who was a stone cold killer. he was as "adult" as anybody else.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

143. If you thought I was attacking this person

then your opinion means very little to me.

[ensho]

81. some societies still have dark ages ideas about females

nt

[vadawg]

89. not as dark as your belief that the girl should have no choice or say in the matter...

[Scout]

178. probably not something to brag about.... n/t

[Control-Z]

181. Oh, that explains it.

I'd always wondered if you were a 15 YO boy.

[vadawg]

186. rofl good zinger, but the answer is not anymore....

[OrwellwasRight]

113. But we live in the US.

So why pretend our 14 year old girls are the same as Maori or Masai girls. They aren't. I don't think the OP is talking about his/her opinion of the planet. Just what happens here in the US. If the DU is about world politics, why do we waste our time on Obama and why not debate Berlusconi instead?

[vadawg]

133. i did note the difference between legal and biological age, also these cultures are in the USA

as it is, i run across all cultures from all over the wworld here in NOVA, if you are talking about the US then you are talking about every culture under the sun...

[OrwellwasRight]

144. yes, and people from other cultures who live here

are not supporting themselves at 14. It is silly to say they should be treated as an adult at 14 because they have genes from a culture that is nothing like US culture. American 14 year olds, of any ethnic background, do not think like adults, act like adults, have the emotional maturity or economic wherewithall of adults. They just don't. Biologic adulthood is not the same as emotional, mental, or economic adulthood. Just because one can get pregnant doesn't mean one should. If that was the test, all menstruating 10 year olds should go get themselves knocked up, I guess. What is so problematic about saying that kids shouldn't be having kids?

[vadawg]

146. yeah because there are no 14 years olds supportig their families in the US

you live in DC you for one should know that there are families where the breadwinner is 14, 15 and 16 years of age... not saying its a good thing, but its just a fact of life. People mature at different rates and one person who is 15 can be more mature and self sufficient than someone twice or three times their age..

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiranon]

200. Sex with children isn't ok here or in other countries. It can be prosecuted here and abroad.

Beware of those who think 14, 15 and 16 year old girls think like an adult and rationally enter into sexual relationships whether resulting in pregnancy or not. Do these same people want their sons marrying at 14, 15 or 16 or taking care of a baby at 14 or would they have married at 14, 15 or 16? I doubt it. It is usually older men (over 18) who get the young girls pregnant and then do not want to give up their lifestyle to help the girl take care of the child. I do not want my 14, 15 or 16 year old daughter or son having a child or getting married. Then need to have the time to grow up and decide who and want they want to be and to be old enough to take care of a child when they have one and to be able to pick a life partner who will be a helpmate and lifelong companion. Casual sex at an early age can harm children and the children that result from it. Do not want to go back to third world standards for women.

[gleaner]

176. If you bring up your disagreement ....

Should you not be willing to explain your reason? Otherwise your statements taken in a vacuum can have any interpretation applied to them. If your reasons are compelling, why not state them?

Kids who are 14, 15 and 16 are most certainly children. That is why most states make the age of consent 18 and have laws against even consensual sex with children younger than the age of consent. Usually that is referred to as Statutory Rape and the sexual partner can be prosecuted.

Girls that young may be able to get pregnant, but their bodies are not necessarily mature enough to take them easily through pregnancy and childbirth. Most doctors advise against becoming pregnant at that age to protect the health of both mother and child. Many of the babies born to girls that young have problems that can last their whole lives.

If the girl wants the child it presents a whole new dilemma. I am pro choice, but I don't think forcing anyone to have an abortion they don't want is any better than forcing someone to have a child they don't want. The best answer is for parents and schools to inform children of 14, 15 and 16 and even younger about all of the methods of contraception available and to create an environment where they can get contraception easily and without stigma if they decide to become sexually active. It also would be an excellent idea for parents to raise their young sons to respect girls and to understand the consequences to the girls and themselves of both pregnancy and STDs.

If we practiced our separation of church and state as it is laid out for us by the founders, things like this would be possible instead of the climate of fear, shame and punishment we have let religions we don't practice create around sexuality and the education of our vulnerable children on how best to manage it. People tend to forget that this is our country and not their church.

[CBR]

2. My mother had a choice. That is what I want for all. nt

[ensho]

3. a 14 yr. old doesn't know enough to make such a decision

nt

[CBR]

6. My 15 year old mother did. nt

[vadawg]

8. so you think that an adult should make the choice for the 14 year old then

no matter what they want...

[ensho]

13. yes

nt

[proudohioan]

68. Well, my teens don't "want" to go to school...

have a curfew, abide by the rules, etc.....

Should I allow my almost 15 year old son to just stay home from school every day just because he doesn't "want" to get up?

Yes, of course we parents are going to make choices for our kids, regardless of what he or she "wants"! There are a lot of things that teenagers "want"....

IMO, that argument just comes off sounding ridiculous.

Fortunately, I haven't had that particular problem with any of my 3 kids, however, in light of the fact that I would probably be the one who would be ultimately raising that child, I suppose it would be more to the point of whether or not I myself was ready to have another child to raise and support. In that case, yes, the choice should be mine.

Now, if my daughter stated to me (at 14) that she was pregnant and had plans to marry (or co-habitate with) the child's father, that they had a place of their own, etc..... well then I would consider her to be emancipated and at that point she would be acting as an adult and free to make her choice.

Not saying that young parents make bad parents, nor that it can't be done, but really, simply stating that it should entirely be the choice of a 14 year old to have a baby just because "she wants" to is nonsense.

[cali]

10. so you believe a parent should be able to legally compel a 14 year old to have

an abortion over the kid's preference to bear the child?

[ensho]

14. yes

nt

[Schema Thing]

22. I was with you until this heinous feckery emerged in your argument

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. Wow - I have to unrec, then

There's no way I can agree with a parent forcing a child to have an abortion. Even it was a medical matter - if the child would be at huge risk of significant harm or death, for instance, but is still determined to put herself at risk - then it should be a matte for a combined medical and legal decision, not a parent.

Choice includes the choice to have a baby, remember.

[anonymous171]

43. What if they were forcing her to keep it? Would you support a parents' right to choose then? nt

[blueamy66]

152. I agree.

It's in their best interest...or have them give the baby up for adoption.

[rd_kent]

49. Not that I agree with your statement, but parents make medical decisions for their kids

all the time. Many of those decisions are contrary to what the child wants, so whats the difference?

[paulsby]

109. here's the irony

i would bet that many of the people who belkieve a parent should be able to compel a 14 15 or 16 yr old to have an abortion would ALSO support the right of the girl to CHOOSE an abortion WITHOUT the paren't knowledge or consent.

iow, they are old enough to choose to get one, but NOT old enough to choose to keep the baby

just sayin'

[Warpy]

40. Some might, some might not

The question should be whether or not her young body is developed enough to survive pregnancy and childbirth. That's where the doctor's opinion comes in.

Otherwise, her body, her choice.

Yes, even if she's a stupid teenager with no idea what she's getting into.

[ensho]

82. that doesn't make sense

nt

[Warpy]

100. Honey, if you haven't managed to teach the kid

about the consequences of having a kid by the time she gets pregnant, then it's too late. Forcing your choice onto her will destroy any chance of a relationship with her in the future and might destroy her, as well.

Again, if her body can take the stress, it's her choice. You might not like it. I might not like it. However, at some point the line has to be drawn, and that's it.

[Christa]

5. Agree 100% nt

[cali]

7. I believe choice means choice.

[ensho]

19. 'choice' if for a grown woman, not for a child

nt

[niceypoo]

35. So, if a 14 year old gets pregnant

...and wants to keep their baby, you would force them to abort it? Really?

[ensho]

83. yes

nt

[niceypoo]

114. Bizarre

IMHO

[paulsby]

110. so, by that logic, do you support the right of a "child"

to make a choice to HAVE AN ABORTION at 14,15 or 16 WITHOUT parent's knowledge or consent?

if they are too young to say NO to an abortion forced by the parent's, then aren't they too young to agree TO an abortion without the parent's knowledge consent?

[cali]

119. nope. bzzzzzt. I think girls should be able to make the choice themselves

and the idea of forcing a girl to have an abortion is as disgusting as forcing her to bear a child. sick shit, dear.

[rd_kent]

55. does a 14 year old have the ability to make other medical decisions?

Don't parents make those decisions for their kids?

[MineralMan]

88. Actually, when it comes to reproductive decisions, the 14 year

old does get to make those decisions. It's a matter of law in most jurisdictions. They can get prescription contraceptives without parental permission, along with other reproductive health care, including abortions, if they choose.

The thing is that parents cannot control the sexual behavior of their adolescent children, unless they do not allow them out of the house and supervise them constantly. Because of this, adolescents are independent in their sexual choices.

In fact, it is not a criminal offense in most jurisdictions for adolescents near each others' age to engage in sexual activity. Those laws are gone. In many states, the age of consent is 16. In some states, it used to be 14, including several southern states and Hawaii. No longer, but 16 is widely recognized throughout the world as the appropriate age of consent.

The bottom line here is that adolescents will and do engage in activities that can result in pregnancy. They do this, in most cases, of their own free will. If they are capable of making the decision to engage in sexual activity, then they must be able to control the results of that activity. Parents have a role, but they cannot force abortion or carrying a pregnancy to term. That decision is that of the adolescent who is pregnant. It is, after all, her life and will be her responsibility to care for the child, in the long run.

Neither denial of choice is proper on the part of parents. I do not believe that any medical professional would perform an abortion against the will of a pregnant adolescent, in any case.

[niceypoo]

115. The ability, yes

They arent four year olds.

[thunder rising]

9. un-un-recced because I totally agree with you. With no equal penalty for the penis forcing continued

pregnancy for underage girls is a crime. There are complications.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

162. So you believe in forcing the abortion? Not giving the girl a choice.

[Yurovsky]

166. Found out today that a good friend's grandson knocked up his 15 yo gf...

and yes, it's TWINS...

The boy is 18 and lucky the parents of the girl aren't pressing charges. In fact, the girls parents are very excited about becoming grandparents, even though their daughter is STILL IN FUCKING MIDDLE SCHOOL. Yep, mommy & daddy get to play with a pair of new babys! And when the novelty wears off, this girl will have her hands full, and little hope of realizing her potential academically or professionally.

Sad...

[Blue-Jay]

11. .

[MineralMan]

15. No parent should be able to force a girl that age to carry a

child to term. Neither should they be able to force her to have an abortion. It's not a simple thing, and the girl's choice needs to be protected.

[Lost-in-FL]

58. +1, nt

[anonymous171]

16. I support a woman's right to choose. nt

[ensho]

20. are you considering girls as adults?

nt

[MadBadger]

21. 16 years is the age of consent in many states.

[anonymous171]

28. What if the parents' want the girl to keep the baby? Should she be required to comply?

[MineralMan]

60. Not necessarily, but they are thinking, functioning human beings.

Your suggestion removes all aspects of choice from these young women. Forced abortion is no different than forced pregnancy. No different at all.

In most cultures before the industrial revolution, 14-year-olds were treated as, and acted as adults. The menarche has long been the mark of adulthood in human society. We're an aberration in treating adolescent people, fully capable of giving birth, as children.

Now, I don't think kids that age should be getting pregnant, but it happens, since they're adult enough to engage in the activities that produce pregnancies.

No choice is no choice. It's not right.

[OrwellwasRight]

17. At least we can post this type of thing on DU.

There ought to be more discussion in this country about having an abortion can save a life. Everyone seems to focus on how it is the end of life, when it may just be a rescue that someone needed to continue living.

[ensho]

23. kick

nt

[Lars39]

31. Quality of life, too.

Pregnancy is damn hard on the body, especially minors.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

18. You are absolutely right.

Children have NO business having babies.

They are not yet adults and they need a lot more time to mature, both physically and mentally, before they should even consider having a child.

Period.

K&R

[stanwyck]

45. Agree. We don't like to talk about the consequences of unwanted

children but the stats are clear. In areas where abortion is more readily available, crime is less. A teenaged mother is less likely to increase her standard of living; her child is more likely to grow up on poverty. There are real effects for society when children have children. Taxpayers will bear the burden for the mother and her child. You'd think the teabaggers, those no tax/low tax zealots would be all over this issue. More abortions/lower taxes. The fetus is sacred to those opposing abortion, the child is not. What kind of life is left to the teenager, her child, and society is met with a shrug. It's all about the domination of the female body and mind.

[cali]

121. you k&r'd a post that is advocating forced abortion for minors.

that doesn't seem like you.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

148. Maybe it doesn't seem like me...

But you know we're all more complicated than we appear here.

I do not believe that children should be having babies. There are laws about sex at that age, where we call it statutory rape.

I agree it's a hard question. But for me, kids having babies at that age is just plain wrong.

[cali]

157. to me forcing a pregnant girl to have an abortion against her will is just as morally

bankrupt and sick as forcing her to have the baby. No difference at all. You believe you know best and have no problem running rough shod over the wishes of the kid, just like them.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Disagree. I am pro-choice...for ALL females.

[ensho]

29. how can you want a child to bear a child?

nt

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Please show me where I said "want?"

Don't throw up strawmen, they burn easily.

[Lost-in-FL]

42. +1, nt

[DevonRex]

26. It's up to the girl. Period. nt

[ensho]

33. so parents should let girls do whatever they want?

or just when it comes to pregnancies?

[MadBadger]

36. What part of my body my right dont you understand?

[Captain Hilts]

27. Yep. nt

[pitohui]

44. it makes a clear statement that yr parents don't give a damn abt yr schooling & yr future

whether or not that's child abuse is a matter of opinion, it isn't legally child abuse for parents to hate and despise their own unwanted children but it sure crosses a moral line when a parent who hates her child then forces that child to carry ANOTHER unwanted baby to term

it creates a long lasting intergenerational legacy of self hate and failure that is highly unlikely to ever be escaped

using religion as cover to punish one's child by destroying her future is pretty passive-aggressive and you know the passive-aggressives -- they are the evil in this world that never gets called on the damage they do

it's far more than "mean" in my book, it is in fact evil

unfortunately, you can be evil and still be within the law and apparently such parents are within their rights

"choice" is a nonsense word when the 14 year old is under control of domineering parents who are sure they're right cuz God Said So

they should start taking DNA of all babies born to minors and tracking down the fathers WHEREVER it leads -- this would cut down on a lot of bullshit because, so often, the father turns out to be mommy's new husband/boyfriend

[ensho]

91. kick

nt

[Lost-in-FL]

95. ...

"they should start taking DNA of all babies born to minors and tracking down the fathers WHEREVER it leads -- this would cut down on a lot of bullshit because, so often, the father turns out to be mommy's new husband/boyfriend" :rofl: :rofl:

This will definitely stop human beigns especially high schoolers, from having sex. :rofl: :rofl:

[SallyMander]

47. "how mean of parents to force a child to become a mother"

But forcing her to have an abortion is a-ok, as per your subsequent posts.

Okaaaayyyy :crazy:

[pitohui]

59. abortion is minor surgery, having a baby changes your body, your future, your life forever

to equate the two is ridiculous

a 14 yr old should not be having a baby, and if she is having a baby, somebody needs to go to jail real damn bad

a 14 yr old having an abortion is just not the same situation, she still has a chance to save her life

seriously, have you ever met any women? the difference between what abortion does to your body and what pregnancy does to your body is night and day

[SallyMander]

64. Ok, got it, you are anti-choice. nt.

[pitohui]

204. got it, you're illiterate

those who choose not to read are no different from those who cannot read

forcing a 14 yr old to carry a baby is rape, and if you think rape "choice," then i guess i AM anti-choice because i'm never going to be in favor for raping someone for 9 months or for 18 years or for their ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE

[MadHound]

51. So you're essentially taking the other end of the anti-choice spectrum

That a girl must get an abortion, and she therefore has no choice in the matter. What makes you any different then from the those at the other end of the anti-choice spectrum, those who say the girl must keep the child.

Sorry, but if you are for choice, then you have to be for choice for everybody. There is no grey area, there is no age restriction, choice applies to all women, regardless of their age or mental capacity. You're viewpoint is dangerously close to those in the eugenics movement of one hundred years ago, people who thought that they too knew what was the best thing to do with a woman's body.

[OrwellwasRight]

90. Some people aren't for choice . . .

It is a label adopted by the abortion rights movement because it tested well. So everyone that wants abortions to be legal is labeled "pro-choice," whether that is what they really think or not. So there is no need to criticize somebody for not being "pro-choice" when maybe they never actually claimed to be pro-choice at all.

And no need to guess what I am: I'll tell you. I think that 14-year-olds who get pregnant should have abortions. Would I advocate bringing them kicking and screaming into a clinic against their will? No. That's ridiculous.

But it should be openly discussed in our society as the right choice, and not some dirty little secret they have to be ashamed of because they were raped or molested or their condom ripped or they couldn't afford to buy their pills that month. That's just also ridiculous. It is not shameful. It's a legal option and often the best option. You've seen what happens to unwanted kids, right? Or even some wanted kids whose parents are too young and lack the skills, experience, and judgment to be good parents.

[MadHound]

99. Oh boy, semantics games, my kind of fun.

I am not going over the mind numbing history of the abortion rights movement, I don't have that kind of time.

However one thing that I will say is that if you are for a woman's right to choose, whether she is young or old, black or white, bright or not so, then you have to be absolutely, utterly consistent in backing that right up.

Apparently you and the OP are anti-choice. You are at the other end of the spectrum from the fundies, you want to force women of a certain age to have an abortion whereas the fundies want to force them to have the kid. Either way, the fact of the matter is that you want to take away a woman's right to choose.

You cannot make that choice for them, not you, not the government, not their parents. It is their life, their body, their choice. Sure, if the young woman wants advice, it should be provided. But forcing a girl to have an abortion because you think that you know better than her, that you're more mature, etc. etc. is just as bad as what the fundies do. It isn't your body, it isn't your life, it isn't your choice.

Yes, I've seen what happens to unwanted kids. I've seen what happens to the kids of young parents. I've seen the good and the bad that results from both. And yes, good does result from those situations. If you are simply going to set criteria saying that young parents can't be good parents, then you're going to have to start busting parents in their twenties, thirties and forties as well, because they can be just as much, if not more so, bad parents.

Furthermore you have absolutely no clue as to what an abortion can do to some people. It can be an agonizing, life changing decision that can cause depression, despair and suicide, especially if it is done against the woman's will. Is that what you're proposing to do with these young women, ruin their lives?

What this whole "must abort teenage babies" smacks of is the eugenics movement of a hundred years ago, when a bunch of people thought that they knew better than the individual person, and thus went out and sterilized over two hundred thousand people in this country against their will and many times without their knowledge. It is the same sort of "I know better than you what to do with your life" attitude that is exhibited by the fundies who want to force women to keep their kids. It is all so much paternalistic bullshit!

Again, if you are pro-choice, if you believe that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, then you have to apply that right across the board, no matter the age, race, or other circumstance. Otherwise you are anti-choice and no better than the fundies. It's that simple.

[OrwellwasRight]

108. Boy you missed the whole point of my post.

I asked who ever claimed to be pro-choice? Do you know if the OP did or I did? die we? if we did, tell me where. My point is that just because a person is for abortion rights does not mean they are or claim to be pro-choice. It is a label society gives them. So quit criticizing people for not being something you don't even know that they claimed to be or want to be.

Let's find some more mistakes in your post, shall we?

How do you know I don't have a clue about what abortion can do? You don't know my life or my history.

I never said "must." I said "should." Two different words and two different meanings. In fact, I specifically said I was against forced abortion, so I think the implication there was that I do NOT believe we "must abort teenage babies."

So thank you for playing, but you don't win the lounge suite or the $500. G'night.

[MadHound]

165. Again, you are trying to make an argument using sophistry and semantics

If you are for abortion rights then de facto you are pro choice. Why? Because that is what the issue of abortion rights boils down to, whether a woman has the choice to carry a child to term or not. If you are for women having abortion rights, then you are, by default, stating that women have the right to make that choice. It isn't a label that society gives out capriciously, it is the logical essence of the matter.

However you're right, I did make an assumption about your knowledge of the effects of an abortion. I don't know your life or history, but given the cavalier manner in which you treat this subject I made the assumption that your knowledge base is small. Perhaps you can correct that assumption by demonstrating something other than a callous and cavalier treatment of the topic. Otherwise I'll be forced to stick with my assumption.

Yes, you did indeed said "should", as well as stating that you don't believe that a pregnant fourteen year old be dragged kicking and screaming into a clinic to get an abortion. Yet the word should has almost as much weight as the word "must". Let's look at the definition shall we (you want to play semantic games, then by all means let's play them.

<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/should>

I think that both the second and fifth meanings are the most relevant here. Thus you are expressing that you think that a fourteen year old is obliged to get an abortion. Why are they obliged to? Who is that obligation to? You? I think not. Society in general? Again, I think not. This is their body, their life, their choice. A fourteen year old is no more obliged to follow the dictates of society in this matter than a thirty year old, and if you have an argument that proves otherwise let's hear it.

The fifth meaning simply states that you are stating a request in a polite manner. Well, polite or not, this matter is none of your business in any way, shape or form, and again, if you have an argument to the contrary I would love to hear it. Because quite frankly it looks to me like you're simply wanting to impose your will, your values set, your morality upon an free and independent human being. You simply don't have the right to tell another person what they should, or should not do in this matter.

But I do find your backpedaling amusing. In your first response to me you do state that, "I think that 14-year-olds who get pregnant should have abortions." Contrast that to your second response to me, "I do NOT believe we "must abort teenage babies." This is a huge contradiction on your part, and frankly one that you're stating because even you realize that you're on tenuous moral and ethical grounds.

So tell me, why do you think that teenager women should get abortions? In fact tell us just how far you're willing to go in order to bring this about. Do you want to pass a law? Forced compulsion on pain of legal repercussions? Furthermore, please tell me why we should care what you think? After all, you've stated yourself that you're not pro-choice.

Just another person who thinks that they have the right to interfere in others' lives.

[OrwellwasRight]

182. Abortion rights = the right to an abortion.

Anything else you want to say about anyone who supports abortion having to fit into the "pro-choice" box is YOU putting a label on others. Not everyone who believes in abortion is pro-choice. Case in point: the OP. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

I like how people who don't fit into your vision of the world are "cavalier" and have a "small knowledge base." And how exactly does one "prove" to you that they have sufficient experience with abortion to justify earning your respect? Give a list of the people they know who have had them? That's nobody's business, especially not the business of someone as "cavalier" as you who can't even respect another DU member's statement. What, am I lying about having sufficient experience with abortions? This isn't the Freeper Board you know. You could have a little respect for DUErs who do not agree with you. I even think you should have such respect. But I don't say you "must" because there is no way for me to enforce it and I have no desire to either.

Must does not equal should. Should means ought to, must means there is no alternative. Children should eat their vegetables -- that is different than saying children must eat their vegetables. One is aspirational. The other implies consequences and punishment. People should not eat trans fats. But I don't say that people must not eat trans fats, and I do not propose a law and punishment if they do not do what they should.

I think people should think before they type. I think children should get more recess. I think people shouldn't kill each other. I think people should be nicer and not call someone they don't even know "callous" and with a "small knowledge base." It is kind of funny how you have to insult somebody who doesn't agree with you. That insult is what is "small."

I also think babies should not be having babies.

Unfortunately, I learned a long time ago that the world isn't that way I think it should be. There is also no way to control people so that they MUST act the way I think they SHOULD act. I know exactly what I typed and there is no contradiction. A lot of things "should be" some way. That doesn't mean that I am Stalin and want to use or have any power to use authoritative powers to make the world the way I want it.

Saying that should and must are different is not semantics. Understanding the difference is a basic skill that will help you to understand other people's arguments. Especially your fellow DUers.

Welcome to ignore.

[MadHound]

189. LOL! So you can't make a good argument for you position, so you're going to get all huffy

And put me on ignore. Sad, really.

Again, let me explain this to you. The essential right that is being expressed in the right to an abortion is that a woman has a right to choose, that she has a choice to do what she wishes with her body. Again, it comes down to a matter of choice. If you don't believe me, go to your local college or university, talk with one of the professors in the women's studies department and tell her that "choice" is just a label. These aren't labels being tossed about like so much confetti, they are basic, bedrock ideas and philosophies.

As far as assuming that your knowledge base is small, based on your cavalier attitude towards this subject, I did admit, I was assuming this, and asked you to disprove this. Instead you decide to go off on a tirade about how I was "insulting" you. So again, since you refuse to disprove this, I must assume that your knowledge base is small. Anytime you care to disprove this, please feel free.

Concerning the semantic argument regarding the word should, I showed you the precise definition, yet you're trying to twist it in order to fit your own agenda. This in and of itself shows that you have a weak argument and that you know it. I'm not going to rehash it all again, I'll just let it stand in mute testimony.

But you are more revealing in this particular line, "I also think babies should not be having babies."

First of all, fourteen, fifteen and sixteen are not "babies". They are young women, who are fully capable of making their own decisions concerning their own bodies without the input of some paternalist person like yourself who thinks that they should have an abortion, or from a paternalistic person like an anti-choice fundy who thinks that they should give birth to the child.

And it is a good thing that they are fully capable of making their own decisions in this regard because otherwise neither you or I would probably be here since it was quite common for young women that age to have children even as recently as fifty, sixty, seventy years ago.

As far as you putting me on ignore, whatever. All that it means to me is that you are unable to carry on a coherent or cognizant debate in a non-emotional manner and choose to flee instead of fight. My guess, you would make a horrible lawyer because you take such debates entirely too personal. But hey, that's me.

Peace:hi:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

53. then the parent should also be able to force them

to wear a chastity belt or use whatever means necessary to prevent them from having sex...if THAT is your position.

sP

[Lost-in-FL]

54. Forcing a child to have an abortion is child abuse.

Every woman has the right to choose and that include 14, 15 and 16 years old. If it was my daughter I would support her decision "to continue" or "NOT continue" with a pregnancy.

[Nikia]

73. I agree

I know woman who were forced by their parents to give up their child for adoption or have abortions. As adults, some of the are still upset about this and feel it has negatively affected their lives.

[pitohui]

206. they have the luxury to whine about their feelings

the women i know who had children as babies don't have to have "feelings" about how it has negatively affected their lives, their lives are destroyed, they are drug users/sellers as are their children

having "feelings" that it might have been a bad thing to have an abortion is a pleasant wistful luxury

raising a child in hell isn't just a "feeling" it's reality

i wish i lived in your world where it's all abt feelings

[liberalhistorian]

57. So you are only for "choice" if that choice is what YOU

agree with? I don't fucking think so. You have no right whatsoever to make that decision for anyone else, including another family. And believe it or not, there are plenty of teens that age who are capable of making their own decisions and just because they don't choose to abort doesn't mean it isn't the right decision for THEM. How arrogant of you to presume that YOU know what is best for ALL teens that age, period.

Too many people claiming to be "pro-choice" can be as bad as those who claim to be "pro-life" in that they really only believe in freedom for what THEY think should be done and, if you don't have an abortion, that that is wrong. And that's pure unrefined horseshit of the highest caliber.

[katmondoo]

63. 16 may be an exception otherwise I agree totally

[Xithras]

66. My wife was 15 when she became pregnant with her first child.

She now has a 16 year old daughter, a college degree, and a successful career. Choice is choice, and an unplanned early pregnancy isn't the end of the world.

Are you aware that, according to ACTUAL research on the subject (rather than mindless hearsay or cherrypicked statistics), the future success of a teen mother has MORE to do with her educational ability and family support network than it does with her age? Teen mothers who come from supportive families and who are doing well academically at the time of the pregnancy only have slightly lower earnings potential when they're younger, and tend to live better lives when they're older because their children are already out of the home and they get to devote more of their incomes to themselves.

Teen pregnancy statistics tend to get horribly skewed by the fact that the overwhelming majority of pregnant teen girls come from unsupportive households and are academically failing in the first place. The statistics about most teen mothers never graduating are skewed by the fact that more than half of teen mothers dropped out of school before becoming pregnant. For most, the pregnancies are a result of a poor environment and failed academics, not the cause of it. When you remove those teens from the statistics, the outlook for the rest brightens dramatically.

So, if your good grade getting, non drug using, well adjusted daughter comes home one day and says "I'm pregnant", don't jump her ass if she refuses to abort it. Help her, support her, encourage her to remain in school, and above all, TELL HER YOU LOVE HER NO MATTER WHAT, and the odds are pretty damned good that she'll be just fine in the long run.

[SallyMander]

69. Your last paragraph -- A+. nt.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

72. damned right! n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

74. +1

FANTASTIC response!

[CBR]

112. Thank you Xithras.

My Mom had me when she was 15. I am getting my Ph.D. today. She is a wonderful strong woman and a great mother.

[EFerrari]

118. I agree to a point. But what of the child's success?

At 16, you barely understand relationships, let alone, how to foster your child's impulse to bond or how that turns into successful attachment and later, successful relationships There's a lot more to having a baby than pushing it out and feeding it -- even with love and best intentions.

I guess if I had a 16 yr old daughter who made the decision to have that child, I'd do exactly as you suggest AND it would behoove me to watch out for the quiet things that are so crucial in those first years, the barely visible process of a mother teaching a child how to relate in a good enough way to other people. (On the third hand, lol, I suppose you could have this same worry about a new mom at any age?)

[cbdo2007]

185. So, wait...instead of you being intrusive and annoying about your daughter

being on birth control BEFORE she were to get pregnant, you would rather wait until after she chooses to have the baby to start being an attentive and overbearing, know it all parent?

That seems to be the problem in a lot of these situations. The parents aren't around when their 14-15 year old kids are out until 2 in the morning smoking and drinking with their friends and having sex. They're probably a single parent themselves who has a boyfriend that they spend the night with and leave their pre-teen kids at home alone, or they work too much and the kids are ignored and void of any rules or responsibilities....

then the kid "accidentally" gets pregnant and suddenly the parent is paying attention and thinks they know what's best?

It isn't all that crucial some of the "quiet things" in the first year your kid wont' know about raising a kid, all of that will come naturally. What is crucial is that parents don't just shut off paying attention to their kids when they're 14-18 years old and think they are old enough to start making their own decisions, especially if it's just so they can have their own sex life and be out partying with their own friends. We all know plenty of people like that, in fact that's more likely to make a 14-15 year old girl WANT to have their own baby, is so they can have their own mother/child relationship they're missing out on.

[EFerrari]

194. What? Did you misplace your post?

My mom helped me get birth control when I was a teen and I did the same for my sons.

Btw, attending to your kids needn't be intrusive, overbearing or "know it all". :wtf:

You have some serious fact deficits about single parents which you seem to fill with unsupported negative assumptions. And no, not all the skills parents need come "naturally".

[emilyg]

177. +10

[pitohui]

205. that's one in a million

that's saying, well, what if you aborted mozart? guess what, your baby wasn't going to be fucking mozart, there was one mozart in 300 yrs and it wasn't yr baby

i'm glad (assuming this story is true, which i doubt) that things worked out for yr 16 yr old wife having a baby BUT it's a biological fact that for all other 16 year olds who weren't the sainted mother mary who gave birth to jesus -- their body is changed forever, their education is changed forever, and they have a life of failure to teach the child to also live a life of failure and/or drug selling

you want to say one time in a million yr child is jesus, that's just cruel

it's like saying, well, there's michael jordan so racism doesn't exist, every black dude should have been able to make a brazillian dollars

i believe in math and you don't, and the trouble w. people who prefer fairy tales to math is that to save one child you condemn a hundred thousand to hell

[cbdo2007]

209. You think every 15 or 16 year old who's had a baby goes on to lead a life of failure?

I think you would be surprised here in the real world if you actually knew which of your neighbors, acquaintances, coworkers, etc had babies when they were teens and they turned out just fine.

Then your argument also implies that everyone who has babies later on in life never turn out to be failures. Again, in the real world here that just isn't the case.

[WillyT]

70. Ok... Here's A Monkey Wrench... What If...

The parents accept the girl's decision/choice to have the baby, but cannot afford to house, clothe, and feed BOTH daughter and grandchild.

What if they tell her she can have the baby, but not the support?

That she has to find another place to live, and fend for herself.

Now I know that this might seem/be highly unlikely, but...

We knew a girl in high school that got pregnant, and when the father found out, he threw her down the stairs in hopes of her losing the pregnancy. It didn't work. So after she recovered from her broken wrist,and separated shoulder, he smacked her in the abdomen with a baseball bat. That time it worked.

Just like no tall girl's parents are going to support the decision to abort, not all parents are going to support the decision to keep either.

:shrug:

[The_Commonist]

78. Unrecc.

So now you want forced abortions?
Isn't that just as bad an idea as forced births?
Don't you think that could cause just as much, if not more damage, depending on the circumstances?
We were designed to make babies at that age, and through most of our history, that's exactly what we did.
You can't force that not to continue.
I don't believe you have thought this through...

[petersjo02]

80. I totally agree with you.

100%. Children should not be forced to have children. Speaking as one who knows all too well the heartbreak involved in such decisions.

[Dappleganger]

84. I disagree and it totally depends upon the child.

A 14 yr. old is a heck of a lot different than a 16 yr. old (physically AND emotionally). If the girl was in the under 13 yr. old range I would tend to agree that it's medically dangerous and much more on the parent or caregiver to make that decision. BUT I really do believe that our now 18 yr. old daughter at those ages was very capable of being a successful parent with the right kind of support, even more so quite capable of deciding whether or not she should have an abortion. Our 14 daughter is also physically able to do this but emotionally, no freaking way. I would never want either of our daughters to feel they had to have a baby at that age with their lives ahead of them, but we have made it clear that we will support them no matter what THEY choose. I have also told each girl on a number of occasions that while I support them being able to get an abortion on their own if they are teens, that as their mom I really want to be able to support them through the process if they want me to. But once again, that is THEIR choice.

BTW, I really don't agree with forcible abortions unless the girl isn't able to bear it or mature enough to make that kind of a decision. Having an age cutoff is really inviting trouble, too. IMO freedom to choose goes both ways and kids' maturity levels are not the same across the board.

[whistler162]

85. Correct and then we should force females whose IQ's fall

below X to have abortions. After all they can't make their own decsions due to their mental age/IQ.<SARCASM>

[ProdigalJunkMail]

92. +1

[GreenPartyVoter]

122. No, no, no. Just sterilize them so we can avoid the sticky religious issues.

[Lil Missy]

86. adoption is also a choice

[LWolf]

93. What a can of worms you've opened.

I support responsible choice. While I firmly support the right of a woman to end an unwanted pregnancy, which IS a responsible choice, I don't support choices that harm others.

Which means there are circumstances in which I do not support the right to have babies.

In this case, I think the choices for underage pregnancy should be abortion or adoption.

[cali]

126. that's some sick shit.

I can't believe the contempt you're expressing toward minors.

[LWolf]

184. You can't believe it, because it isn't true.

That post expresses no contempt towards minors, or towards anyone else.

It just gives you an opportunity to spew venom.

[muriel_volestrangler]

192. You're saying you'd force either an abortion, or an adoption, on the girl

Either way, you could inflict huge mental damage on her. I think you are indeed showing contempt for her. Underage pregnancies aren't good, but to say a 15 year old (or older?) must never be allowed to bring up a child, even if she has supportive people around her, is draconian.

[LWolf]

193. No, I'm saying I'd allow her to choose between the two. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

196. Exactly - either way, you'd never allow her to have and bring up the baby

It's an extreme authoritarian attidude. At what age would you allow her her human rights?

[LWolf]

198. Rights end at the end of your nose, or finger tips, or whatever body part

you choose; they end with yourself, and do not cause harm, or impede the rights of, others. What rights do infants have to a safe, nurturing, stable environment, and to good parents? Under-age parents are only one small facet of that bigger question, of course.

I am the daughter of that girl, and I WAS that girl. Given the choice, I would have given my child up for adoption, rather than having a forced abortion. That's why I support choice. Having tried to raise me when she wasn't prepared...that's why my mom forced the abortion.

I've spent a couple of decades working with that girl's children, dealing daily with the problems kids have when their parents weren't ready to be parents, which is why I'd like them to be adults who have finished growing up and found their place in the world before they become parents.

[muriel_volestrangler]

201. You are claiming a girl under 16 can *never* be a good parent

(I'm saying 16, because you still haven't specified, and that's a typical legal age of consent for sex. Say what age you put your dividing point at, if is isn't the 16th birthday, and say whether that's for conception or birth).

We have DUers here with examples of mothers under 16 who have been good parents. You are saying they shouldn't have had the chance to do that. You may have wanted to give birth and use adoption; I'd fully support your right for that, and wouldn't allow your mother to override your choice. But others may feel ready to be a mother bringing up a child; some, at 15 or younger, are mature enough to be able to make that decision, and to be a success.

I'd never give the parent the final say; if someone is so emotionally immature that they could be a danger to their child, then that decision should be made in the same way it is done for certain adults who are deemed incapable of taking care of an infant - by the state, with many people making a collective decision. But we know that many under 16 can be good parents. To restrict their rights, just because you know of cases where people haven't been good mothers, is lazy authoritarianism.

[LWolf]

202. No, I didn't claim that.

Why do you continually rely on falsehood and hyperbole to make your case? It seems more personal than relevant to the topic.

If you think maturity, experience, and having established some stability in life are not important characteristics for parents, we really have nothing more to argue about. My experience tells me that you are wrong.

If you don't give the parent the final say for an underage pregnancy, do you give them the final say for other medical treatment? If not, who gets that final say?

Are you suggesting that children are qualified to make medical decisions for themselves?

You yourself point out that there is no arbitrary age number that determines one to be qualified for parenthood. That, I agree with. Of course, that same argument holds for everything else that we attach age limits and adult status to. Why do we have an age for legal adult status instead of some other criteria? Is there another criteria we could use to establish legal adulthood and independence? If so, what is it, and what are the pitfalls? I'm certainly willing to explore that idea.

In reality, there is no such thing as perfect parenting, as anyone who has parented or been parented understands. We hope that every infant will have parents who balance their shortcomings with enough love, nurturing, and common sense to keep from harming the physical, social, emotional, and intellectual development of the child until such time they can take responsibility for themselves.

I've spent my life working with other people's children. I am grateful for the strong, positive parents that I've worked with. I am empathetic, and mostly not judgemental, with those parents whose parenting skills are weak, but still demonstrate the same passionate caring about their children. I am appalled by parents whose ego, whose neglect and abuse of their children, have left them scarred and with dysfunctions that will hold them back as adults.

That's the real issue for me; somewhere along that continuum, bad parenting hurts kids. Bad parenting is certainly not limited to the young, but in my professional experience, many more of the most damaged children come from parents who were too young, without having finished their education, established themselves as independent and able to function responsibly in the real world before they became parents.

Until there is a better solution to address the kids harmed by those lacks, I don't think kids should be parents. For every situation that turned out well, there are more that did not.

There is a whole other topic of discussion that this touches on: the emancipation of young people. When should legal adulthood begin, and what supports should be in place in our society to make that happen? Should we emancipate them from parents before they are done with their general education? Should we overhaul the education system to allow more specific focuses at a younger age? Should we support them in dorms to finish their education after emancipating them at younger ages? Should there be some other qualification/s to earn that emancipation, other than age?

That would make an interesting discussion for those who are curious, who wanted to explore ideas without necessarily endorsing any, who could do so without hyperbole and personal attack.

[muriel_volestrangler]

203. You said "I think the choices for underage pregnancy should be abortion or adoption"

You gave no choice of bringing up the baby.

Yes, maturity, experience, and having established some stability in life are important characteristics for parents; But I would not say that a 15 year old can never have sufficient of them to be a good parent.

I don't give parents the final decision on medical treatments if refusing them puts the life of the child at severe risk (eg blood donations for Jehovah's Witnesses), and I don't give parents the decision on birth control, either - any girl should be able to get that confidentially with the parents having no knowledge, if she wants.

The rest of your post shows you see how complicated good parenthood is, and that there aren't hard and fast definitions of who can be one. So why not allow pregnant underage teenagers the choice to be one unless there are particular circumstances for a girl of why it would be a disaster? You must know that giving them the choice of only adoption or abortion could be very harmful to them psychologically.

[LWolf]

208. Yes. I said,

"I think the choices for underage pregnancy should be abortion or adoption."

That is not a statement on the statistical probability of underage parents being good parents.

I'm not sure that limiting their choices to two, instead of three, could be psychologically harmful. I think people can be accountable for making responsible reproductive choices; if giving up a child is psychologically harmful, we might want to consider prevention of pregnancy until we don't need to make other choices. In any case, any harm is directed towards those responsible, not the innocent child.

I'd err on the side of the innocent, in this case.

I do owe you an apology, though. This is the first time I've noticed that you aren't the person I was replying to originally, so the hyperbole and personal attack comments aren't accurate.

I did say I was willing to look at the larger issue, which I think is the place to look for actual changes in the way we look at adulthood and under-age rights.

[MineralMan]

94. Uh, what medical professional would perform an abortion on

an unwilling person? Seriously. I cannot imagine such a situation. While some medical professionals refuse to perform abortion procedures, I doubt there are any who would be willing to abort a fetus if the person carrying that fetus objected to the abortion.

On that basis alone, you are totally off base. Somewhere along the line, you have to enlist the aid of a doctor to perform the abortion. If you can find one who will abort if the girl or woman objects, I'll be very surprised.

[grasswire]

96. Did someone FORCE this girl to have sex??

If she had sex of her own free will, then SHE is the one choosing to become a mother. Any other decision is secondary to that one she made.

[anonymous171]

97. Just because you know the consequences of an action does not mean that those consequences are rght

[Raspberry]

98. So, I guess

you're all for parental notification laws, too?

[JustAVet]

103. I can't agree or disagree until I'm clear on what you're saying

Are you saying that the girl shouldn't be forbidden from having an abortion or are you saying that the girl should be forced to have an abortion?

I agree with the former, but not with the latter.

[Not Me]

105. I'm a gay man, and I am staying FAR from this thread.

nt

[quiller4]

106. If my mother or father had mandated an abortion for me at 14,

15 I would have run away as far and fast as I could. By 16 I was already on my own, finishing high school, working and paying rent. I went to court and had myself declared an independent juvenile two months after I turned 16. I wasn't pregnant. I didn't even have a steady boyfriend. I just knew that I would be safer if I excaped from an alcoholic, abusive father.

I know that some 14 year olds have a maturity and wisdom that other 30 year olds lack. Children raised in homes with an alcoholic or addict parent often become the adults in their dysfunctional family while they are still in middle school.

I would hope that most pregnant teens could consult with parents and make a choice but the choice belongs to the pregnant teen--not the father of the child, not the parents of the teen and not the courts.

Nobody should force the teen to be a mother but neither should anybody force the teen to have an abortion.

[blueamy66]

167. Wow.

Good for you.

I could have never survived.

:-)

[slackmaster]

111. A teenager who has made a choice to have sex is mature enough to decide whether or not to abort

K&U

:nuke:

[pipi_k]

142. I have to disagree with this...

a teenager who has unprotected sex has demonstrated a total LACK of maturity. Mature people don't do things without considering the consequences.

If a girl thinks she can raise a baby in her early teens, with no job, having to go to school and perhaps forcing her parents to care for the child while she goes to school, then she's not mature.

If she believes she can have sex and then give the child up for adoption and not have that decision affect the rest of her life (as well as her child's life), then she's not mature.

And that's not even taking into account the issue of diseases from unprotected sex. If she's not thinking about that, she's not mature enough.



Which isn't to say that I believe young girls should be forced to have abortions, or whatever.

Just that "making the choice" to have sex doesn't make someone mature enough to decide the future (or non future) of another human being...

:shrug:

[OrwellwasRight]

147. Couldn't agree more!! nt.

[ensho]

188. baloney

nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

116. K n R because you are RIGHT!

a million kudos to you for saying it!!

anyone who doesn't see the abuse of forced reproduction is terminally dense.

[cali]

127. the op is advocating forced abortion.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

128. I disagree.

I'd love to see eye to eye on this, but since I think equating it with a call for forced abortion is a far stretch, I doubt we will be able to find common ground here.

[cali]

129. Disagreeing won't change the FACT that in post #10 I asked the OP

if she was talking about compelling (that means forcing) a minor to have an abortion.
She answered with one word in post #14: Yes.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

158. well there you have it then.

I didn't see that post.




well, regardless of that, I still think forcing little girls to bear children is abuse. Safe legal abortion is a blessing.

[unabelladonna]

117. i agree with you

however, i'm sure you'll get alot of flak from others.

[fishwax]

120. I support the right to choose.

I don't support forcing a female to carry a child to term. I also don't support forcing a female to have an abortion.

[CBR]

124. This thread makes me feel worthless.

I know I am being overly sensitive about a stupid Internet thread but it enrages me. As the child of a teenage mother. I was not abused and I am successful in adulthood. My mother did not even come from a well-to-do or middle class family that gave her money or support.

ARGHHHH....

[cali]

130. well, don't. anyone who wants to force a girl to get an abortion against her will

is a sick little fuck, no different than the pro-lifers who want to force birth.

[CBR]

135. Thank you cali!! nt

[Fire1]

141. There are lot of "sick little fucks" in this thread. Count me in! n/t

[etherealtruth]

132. I got pregnant as a teenager ....

My oldest celebrated his 28th birthday yesterday. I consider having him one of the three best "things" that have happened in my life (his little brother and sister make up the other two).

There are idiots out there .... just let the OP serve as evidence of this.

[CBR]

137. Thank you so much. Your children are blessed

to have such a wonderful mother.

[Scout]

179. if your MOTHER had not been burdened with a child at a young age,

perhaps she would have achieved "more" for herself, and had the good life you have had.

:shrug: would that have been a bad thing? you would never know if you had never been born.

[CBR]

180. Perhaps my MOTHER got her college degree, has a successful

career, owns a home, has been happily married for 30 years, just got back from a cruise today... PERHAPS you shouldn't stereotype and make assumptions.

Maybe we could say the same about YOUR mother.

[Scout]

216. undoubtedly my mother would have been more successful had she not had 5 children

the first at age 17, when she had to drop out of school.

abortion was illegal until after all her children had been born, so she didn't have a choice.

[pitohui]

207. lots of us had teen aged mothers and were abused

you want to take the one in a million event and put a million kids in hell because it worked out for you?

why can't you accept that you were lucky, breathe a sigh of relief, and try to avoid the near accident from happening to other kids?

instead we have this strange phenom of the one kid in a million saying "well why don't all the rest of you play basketball for a million bucks? i don't understand why you're bitching abt the economy? jobs? who needs a jobs? just shoot hoops..."

yes, you turned out well, there are people told they would never walk again in an accident who are walking now (and not just soap operas, i know such a man) -- they don't feel obligated to say OKAY LET THIS TERRIBLE ACCIDENT HAPPEN TO EVERYONE IT AINT SO BAD!!!

how does this thread impact you at all? most children of teen age moms will suffer abuse and poverty, and to pretend that it isn't so because YOU escaped is fairly fucking selfish, k?

[Taitertots]

125. They are already bad parents if they have a pregnant 14, 15, 16 year old daughter

To refuse to allow an abortion is just the icing on the abuse cake.

[etherealtruth]

131. I rarely unrec anything ....

....but, this post is truly deserving.

I am the mother of a beautiful, vibrant, popular straight A (all AP and honors classes)16 year old daughter .... let me assure you, it would be abuse not to allow her to make her own choices and support her in her choices ... regardless of whether it would be my choice for her or not.

I am sickened by those parents that force their children to carry a child to term against her wishes and i am equally sickened by your view.

[uppityperson]

138. Unrec, not for personal story the alternative to forced abortion not "force a child to become a mot

I don't see the alternative to a forced abortion as "force a child to become a mother".

We all "need mothering" throughout our lives.

I understand the issues involved with 14 yr olds having babies, but forcing abortions is the wrong way to go about dealing with the problems involved.

Unrec.

[Hello_Kitty]

155. But the OP is about forcing girls to give birth.

Which is what you are doing if you refuse to let your daughter get an abortion.

[uppityperson]

164. I read the OP otherwise. Forcibly impregnating a 14 yr and and denying access to legal abortion is

wrong. Legal right to chose is right to chose remain pregnant or get an abortion. Forcing someone either way is wrong and abusive.

[muriel_volestrangler]

171. The thread starter's replies #13 and #14 make it clear she would force an abortion on the girl

if the girl wanted to continue the pregnancy. I think she's saying the ultimate decision would be up to the girl's parents (what would happen if they disagreed with each other, I'm not sure), but if the parents didn't force the girl to have an abortion, it would be 'abuse', though presumably not counted as an actual crime, since no penalties for the parents allowing the pregnancy to continue have been discussed.

A very worrying attitude, if you ask me.

[Quantess]

139. I agree with you!

Nobody should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy. And in cases where the girl says she wants to have the baby, a responsible parent would present the arguments in favor of her getting an abortion.

[Fire1]

140. I don't know how "mean" it is or even if it's child abuse but I

definitely don't think teen-agers that age should be forced to give birth. Absolutely not.

[blueamy66]

150. 14 and 15, yeah maybe..

but I'm partial to the 16 yr. old, as my sister in law gave birth to my oldest niece at the age of 17...got prenant at 16...and I love my oldest niece to death...

I feel for the children of children....

[Geek_Girl]

153. I agree but I still think ultimately it is the mother's decision even if the mother is a child

But the child should have the right to one regardless.

[Hello_Kitty]

154. It's how they handle it in Japan.

When a girl gets pregnant her mother takes her to the abortion clinic and gets it done.

[rocktivity]

156. No one should be forced to have either a baby OR an abortion under ANY circumstances

If I had a daughter that age who wanted to have the child, I'd grit my teeth and let her. But then I would exercise my right to act in her best interests by placing the child in foster care with supervised visitation until she turns 18.


rocktivity

[marshall]

159. Where's the choice in your scenario?

If it's child abuse not to proceed with an abortion on a minor, the parent obviously doens't have a choice in the matter. But does the pregnant girl have a choice in the matter? If she decides to forego an abortion is she guilty of child abuse on herself, in the same way girls who deliever nude photos of themselves via email are guilty of child pornography?

[hayu_lol]

160. I think that many are jumping the gun here...

I am pro-choice by the way.

The way this used to be handled(back in the old days)would be for the girl's parents to talk to her. Determine what she wants to do. If she and boyfriend want to be a pair, then get together with the other family involved.

Let the two get married, have the child, and live together in one home or the other until they become self-supporting before trying to do it all themselves.

No, this is not perfect but it might have better life results than forcing a young woman to do this, or that, or something else. Keeping the pair together might make more sense in the long run. Another alternative to a very touchy situation.

If it was just a casual contact, then another option would appear better.

A 15 or 16 year old might be better off with her partner and just helped until they can go out on their own. What else are families for? Rape or incest or the like...I'm sure the girl can make her own decision with the help of medical experts/counselors.

I know of a lot of such marriages that have now passed their 50th anniversaries and are quite happy with each other.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

163. The OP is advocating forced abortions not choice. See post #10 and 14.

[flvegan]

161. This thread has surpassed expectations.

Well done everyone!

[JetCityLiberal]

215. Not really, same old same old right wing boy crap posts

the usuals.

[Withywindle]

169. Getting an abortion FOR her?

Weird phrasing there. An abortion isn't something you pick up on a business trip at a souvenir shop and bring home for a present. An abortion is an act that takes place within the body of a woman or girl. It's invasive. It's painful. It's sometimes necessary and desired, sometimes not.

I think "forcing" a child to become a mother, i.e.m forbidding her from getting an abortion when she wants one, is indeed child abuse.

Forcing a girl who DOESN'T want an abortion to have one is also child abuse. And because it's an invasive act on her body against her will, I think there's a strong case for calling it sexual assault as well. Which is why, I hope, no reputable doctor will do it.

[Iggo]

170. So they should be forced to get abortions instead of being forced to have the baby?

:shrug:

[Fire1]

173. Pretty much. n/t

[Toucano]

172. Unrec.

I am pro choice, but I dislike your logic.

[JonLP24]

174. I'm not sure what you're saying

I'm against a parent forcing a person at those ages to keep the child but I don't think they should be forced to have abortions. I only feel this way because my ex-wife had her first child when she was 16 and he is healthy, taken care of individual and her mother had her when she was 14 and she grew up as a stronger, self-confident person than I could ever hope to be.

However forcing a person at those ages to carry the child is child abuse.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

175. It's HER fucking choice. nt

[Jennicut]

183. My cousin had an abortion at 15 and is now married with 3 children as an adult.

For her, it was the right thing to do. But it was her choice.

[cliffordu]

190. My sister had a baby at 13, gave it up for adoption and eventually they

found each other.

They have a lovely and productive relationship.


Your opinion in this matter is almost completely useless.

:eyes:

[crazyjoe]

191. So you want the government to start to "force" abortions?

some of the posts i see here are just incredible.

[MadBadger]

195. It's Disgusting that this Appears on The Greatest Page

[EmeraldCityGrl]

210. +1

[Control-Z]

213. Actually, I think it is good.

This is a conversation that needs to take place up and center for all to see and to be part of, if desired. I'm not fond of a lot of what I'm reading but it is better than not talking about it at all.

[MadBadger]

214. I dont think forced abortion is a conversation that needs to take place.

[proteus_lives]

199. Disagree 100%

Choice is choice. What you're proposing is just as bad as the laws pro-lifers would have.

Shame on you.

[rebecca_herman]

212. Agreed

Forced abortion and forced birth are both WRONG.

[Bettie]

211. Forcing someone to have an abortion

is just as bad as forcing someone to become a mother when she is not ready.

The key here is being informed and making a decision based on the realities of individual situations.

The point of pro-choice is the word CHOICE.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

218. Si I guess there are "pro-abortion" people.

Oh, well.