I actually stood up to a "tax complainer" the other day

[MorningGlow]

This is major for me, as I don't do well with off-the-cuff debates. But I'd just had enough of people griping.

I was at my son's school, waiting for him to come down to the front doors (security measures dictate that all parents picking up kindergarten, first, and second graders at the end of the day sign them out). The same parents or grandparents are there every day, and most of us make innocuous small talk in the hallway while we wait for our kids to appear. The other day a little girl's grandfather decided to gripe about our high taxes. And for some reason I just didn't feel like hiding behind the nod-the-head-and-change-the-subject habit I've fallen into when conversing with my neighbors in this very, VERY conservative community.

So when it was my turn to talk, and he expected me to agree with him and start complaining as well, I said, "I don't mind paying taxes. That's the way our society is set up. Like club membership dues. It lets my son go to school; it paves the roads. And let me tell you, I'm darned grateful when I hear those plows coming down the street at 5 a.m."

And you know what? That completely stunned him. Not in a bad way (he's basically a nice guy, so I answered him calmly and with a smile), but in that "oh my God somebody opened the door of the echo chamber and let in a different idea" kind of way. I hope it got him thinking.

I've gotta say, the whole experience was pretty gratifying. I strongly recommend it! :hi:

On edit: speling

[mindfulNJ]

1. Good for you!

:yourock:

[-wulf-]

2. Not news

Every year polls show that the majority of Americans have no problem paying taxes or even more taxes for the reasons you cited above.

The problem people have is paying more taxes when they known that much of it will be wasted to go towards expenses other than what is advertised.

[daleanime]

8. Then become a little more involved..

and help solve that problem.

[-wulf-]

28. Actually

I saved tax payers in our area over $300,000 dollars in energy costs alone last year by eliminating wasteful spending (consumption) as a large portion of our budget comes from a local municipality, which can only come from tax dollars.

[MorningGlow]

10. But these kinds of folks don't make a distinction

between wasteful spending and spending IN GENERAL--spending AT ALL. They truly want something for nothing--they don't understand that they're paying for community services.

[-wulf-]

27. I'm sure

that there are those out there that feel the way you describe. I'm simply pointing out that the majority of Americans are more than willing to pay more taxes if they know it will be spent on the programs and projects that the tax is supposed to pay for.

[SalviaBlue]

31. I will gladly pay taxes for more regulation and consumer protection.

This is one main things republicans want to do away with. The other is helping the poor. They hate paying taxes to help the poor.

[Mopar151]

32. Or their beleifs are out of proportion.

When they find out where the money REALLY goes, they usually calm down a little. And some folks just ain't got a clue - Here in frugal NH, state salaries are typically 30% or more lower than the private sector, and private sector wages here are about the same 30% lower than in the Boston area. But the LTTE section, and the comments on newsboards, are filled with people decrying "cushy" state jobs.

[Mz Pip]

3. I seriously believe

that many of these people really do not understand how government works or how it benefits them. They are good at reciting talking points in a vaccuum but a bit dim when it comes to really backing up their talk with facts.

You did good. You gave examples of how taxes actually benefit him personally. He'll think about it.

[arcane1]

5. Exactly!

Like Bartcop is fond of saying: Just list the facts

[Jackpine Radical]

9. The prevailing belief seems to be that most tax money goes to "welfare cheats."

Most have no conception of how their money is actually spent, or which spending comes from which budget.

[CrispyQ]

33. Most tax money does go to welfare cheats.

List of United States defense contractors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_defense_contractors

Our Forever Wars are simply a way to siphon the Treasury into the wallets of the corporate elite.

How much longer will Americans tolerate this? Instead, they bicker & whine about a single mother getting food stamps. :eyes:

[lib_wit_it]

40. Meanwhile, ignoring that which goes to welfare states like Alaska. Then they have the gall to praise

Palin for doing such a great job with the budget up there. Ignorance: best friend of the Right Wing.

[daleanime]

4. That's how you change a nation...

working on one person at a time! Feels great to see they eyes get a little wide doesn't? :toast:

[sui generis]

6. just the same, I'm a lot more willing to pay more taxes

if they don't go to pay for useless stupid wars or unsustainable aid. The society I'd like to pay for is here, where I live, not in some atavistic tribal system that can't even grow their own food crops.

I'm also willing to pay more taxes HERE if none of it ever goes to religious (excuse me "faith based") organizations in any form, via government coffers.

Other than that, lets spend on healthcare, the common good, infrastructure, civil security, education, and on wisely managing our shared resources.

We don't need wars to set a human rights standard. We just need a human rights standard.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. Odds are, though, that the "atavistic tribal system"

is the product of colonial exploitation.

Check out the history of companies like United Fruit and our endless little Central American wars throughout the 20th century. Or consider Haiti, or Africa, or SE Asia, or wherever. Whenever they get t together to create a more progressive society (e.g. Ho Chi Minh in the 1940's-50's) they get smashed by the colonialists. Check out the British opium wars in China, the long-term rape of India, whatever.

[sui generis]

20. not really.

(cue theme from Deliverance)

When you put a bunch of people on a former trade and war route to supply caravans of marauders, raiders, and traders you end up with little pockets of highly interbred highly adapted people who don't have anything more than cultural identity to cling to, usually in the absence of jobs, arable land, infrastructure and trade economy.

Just the same colonialism is a ridiculous disease to cure generations later in a melting pot, made up natives from those same "colonies".

We cannot be responsible for the sins of someone else's forefathers - that is just the history of the world as unpleasant as it may seem. What we CAN do is open our immigration policies appropriately. We can demand a human rights standard for places that really never had human rights, colonies or not.

But we don't. Similarly, going to war to "fix things" just doesn't.

[MorningGlow]

14. This guy was complaining about local taxes

because one of our tax bills just came due (village, town, school, I forget--it's folded into my mortgage so I don't notice which gets paid when). And that makes it all the worse, because this village is PHENOMENAL when it comes to services. The roads are kept clean, the parks are tended, the garbage is picked up on time without fail--we even have our lawn waste, Christmas trees, and leaves recycled instead of thrown into a landfill. We don't have overlarge police, fire, or ambulance services (hell, we've only got four police officers total), but all emergencies are responded to in record time. Dude has NOTHING to complain about locally. But when a bill that large arrives in the mail, suddenly it's something to complain about.

[sui generis]

21. oh heck yes I'm for that.

I live in Dallas and have to replace all four tires and spare on both cars every single year, but we're proud we don't have a state income tax!

Nevermind the city's damn near broke, the ISD's have multimillion dollar shortfalls and budget overruns, and our firefighters and some city employees are so underpaid that most of them work multiple jobs just to make ends meet.

I'm all for a state income tax here, even if it's just 1 percent - it would change everything in this state.

[MorningGlow]

24. That's a great example of the alternative

New York Staters have always complained about being taxed to death (there are some state taxes I wonder about), but we have no idea what it's like when some services aren't covered.

[4_TN_TITANS]

25. Same here in TN...

People are so proud that we don't have an income tax, but I get tired of the wife having to worry every year about whether she will have a teaching job. Music teachers are some of the first on the chopping block when sales taxes are down.

[LeftHander]

7. nope you are dirty liberal now....

he'll probably get your kid kicked out of school...and his conservative buddies in the school district will start chunking his grades.

[MorningGlow]

15. LOL

This is a pretty small town--that would be easy to "make happen"!
:rofl:

[pleah]

11. Good for you!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hi:

[The2ndWheel]

13. Not that it would matter if you did mind

You make it sound like it's a choice with no threat of penalty if you don't comply. A club membership by default, which you support, under that threat of penalty, whether or not you agree with whatever that club does.

[MorningGlow]

16. But it's not like we don't have a say in where our taxes go and how much we pay

Sure it's tough to be heard, but it's not impossible.

"This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia."

[raccoon]

17. Good for you! If one can do that in a nice way, as you did, maybe

that will let in a different idea for some people.

[gratuitous]

18. Nice

It doesn't have to be confrontational or angry, just a simple declarative sentence, with some supporting facts. Well done. Of course, not every tax dollar collected is spent to everyone's satisfaction, but at least part of the system is designed to allow for citizen input, either through electing public officials who are truly representative or by voting for or against local initiatives and ballot measures. The more participation and the more understanding by more of the population, the more better.

[safeinOhio]

19. I use this

Paying taxes is my patriotic duty as an American. I want the best roads, schools and police and fire protection in the world. To not pay for it would be cheap of me..

[NNN0LHI]

22. Do teabaggers having symptoms of a heart attack refuse a ride in a gubmint subsidized ambulance?

On the gubment subsidized roads? To the gubmint subsidized hospital? To be treated by all those gubmint subsidized doctors?

Know any that would refuse?

Don

[jwirr]

23. Way back in the 50s my Dad would talk to us kids about taxes by

telling us all the things we had because of taxes. Not a one of us are complaining and most of us used the same practice with our children. One of the many blessing I have received from the taxpayers of this nation is the life of my severely disabled daughter. She would not be alive without the medical services you have paid over the years. For that I am very grateful.

[MorningGlow]

26. Taking care of one another/the community

Exactly what the Founding Fathers intended. (Oh wait--that's socialist Marxist fascism--I forgot. :P ) And I'm sure none of your neighbors would begrudge one cent that went toward your daughter. To the ones that would--well, that's what the coercion is for--making sure they participate in helping their neighbors. :evilgrin:

[PHIMG]

29. Lets' call them "Tax Whiners"

Let them go live in libertarian paradise where the taxes are very low - Somalia.

[CrispyQ]

34. Or they could move to Colorado Springs.

Colorado Springs cuts into services considered basic by many

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_14303473

snip...

This tax-averse city is about to learn what it looks and feels like when budget cuts slash services most Americans consider part of the urban fabric.

More than a third of the streetlights in Colorado Springs will go dark Monday. The police helicopters are for sale on the Internet. The city is dumping firefighting jobs, a vice team, burglary investigators, beat cops — dozens of police and fire positions will go unfilled.

The parks department removed trash cans last week, replacing them with signs urging users to pack out their own litter.

Neighbors are encouraged to bring their own lawn mowers to local green spaces, because parks workers will mow them only once every two weeks. If that.

-more at link

[SalviaBlue]

30. Good job!!

[CrispyQ]

35. Good for you for speaking up.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Maybe he will give your comment some thought.

[MorningGlow]

37. It's all I want, really

Just for these people to THINK before they regurgitate the talking points.

[whathehell]

36. "Taxes are the price you pay to live in a civilized society"....My message too. n/t

[varelse]

38. What do you know?

sometimes people will listen to reason :)

[felinetta]

39. Excellent. People have to stop thinking of taxes as a "punishment".

[JBoy]

41. The guy is going to go home crying now, because you debunked the snowplow fairy.

Way to go.

:evilgrin:

[Common Sense Party]

42. "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes

I'm not sure how civilized ours is...

[bear425]

43. Good job! n/t

[femrap]

44. Good for you!!!!

I am not a tactful person like you (could you give me lessons? lol). I tell them to give me their damn money and then they won't have to worry nor complain about paying taxes.

I actually think they're bragging about how 'rich' they are. F*ck 'em. See? I have lost all my tact.