US, China swap more tariffs

[FarCenter]

China and the United States cranked up the tension Friday as they exchanged new tariffs, underscoring the increasing sensitivity and fragility of the world's most significant bilateral relations, which have been strained in recent weeks.

China's ministry of commerce announced duties on imports of US chicken products Beijing believes are sold at unfairly low prices. In its preliminary ruling, the ministry asked importers of US chicken parts in China to pay deposits at customs – of up to 105.4 percent – starting Saturday, according to an online statement.

"Investigations showed that the US producers had dumped chicken products on the Chinese market, causing substantial damage to China's domestic industry," the ministry said.

Later Friday, the US unveiled its countermeasure by slapping initial anti-dumping duties of up to 231.4 percent on gift boxes and ribbons from China that it said were unfairly priced, Reuters reported, adding that the US slapped much lower duties of up to 4.54 percent on Taiwan.

China formally launched anti-subsidy investigations into US chicken products and auto parts in late September. That move came as the US imposed stiff tariffs on imported Chinese tires, adding to a growing list of Chinese exports that face US duties, including electric blankets and steel tubes.

As much as $7 billion worth of Chinese exports last year were made subject to Washington's trade protectionist measures, Yao Jian, a spokesman with China's ministry of commerce, said in January, with the steel and tire industries said to be among the most affected.
<SNIP>http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6889835.html

[OhioChick]

1. Show China what tariffs really are. n/t

[HeresyLives]

2. And they'll do the same to you.

Nobody wins a trade war.

[OhioChick]

3. Bring it on. n/t

[HeresyLives]

5. Last time it produced the Great Depression.

Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

[OhioChick]

8. We're already there. n/t

[HeresyLives]

10. You aren't even close.

[OhioChick]

11. Living in Ohio...I beg to differ n/t

[HeresyLives]

12. Ohio isn't remotely in a Depression.

[OhioChick]

13. You seem to be an "expert" on every thread involving China.

:eyes:

[HeresyLives]

14. I point out there are other countries in the world than the US.

China is only one of them...it's just the one Americans like to blame most.

I could just as easily discuss India or the EU, or any number of other places.

[OhioChick]

15. You seem to be doing a great job arguing with people here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4259604

[HeresyLives]

16. No, I'm pointing out there are 200 other countries in the world.

It's people here that are arguing about it. :rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

28. ROFL.

Most outsourcing shills will claim that protectionism worsened or prolonged the Depression but you're going whole hog by claiming it caused it. :rofl:

[HeresyLives]

30. Recessions, depressions are normal in

your business cycles, but in the 30's, just as 'green shoots' were appearing everyone went protectionist. That's what made it the GREAT Depression.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. Free trader revisionist nonsense.

Foreign trade was a miniscule part of our economy back then.

[HeresyLives]

34. Well it's not 'back then' anymore.

And the US was actually heavily invested overseas.

[Hello_Kitty]

40. No it wasn't

Look at the "net export" line.

[HeresyLives]

43. Apparently you've missed the huge scandals

over US companies selling to Germany, both before and during WWII.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. Which has fuck all to do with your assertions about foreign trade and the Depression. eom

[HeresyLives]

49. Then you've misunderstood the entire conversation.

[Hello_Kitty]

53. The red herrings haven't worked so now you're going for derailing.

Whatever. You've been busted for making a patently false claim about the Depression and rather than acknowledge it and move on you engage in distractions and condescension.

[HeresyLives]

54. Sorry, no herring and no rails.

The Depression has nothing to do with this topic...that was YOUR red herring.

The fact you don't know why it started, and what made it worse is your problem.

But none of that has anything to do with China and the US today.

[Hello_Kitty]

59. I prefer my history from credible sources, thanks.

BLS chart = credible

Globalization propagandist's revisionism = not

[HeresyLives]

61. Well, skip the historians and history texts then.

I guess they're not credible.

Or any of the court cases that are current, or even the Bush family tree.

[Hello_Kitty]

65. Link to a legitimate historical source that backs up your claims.

And by legitimate, I mean not a free trade shill. So no CATO Institute, Heritage Foundation, or other Big Bidness front group.

[HeresyLives]

67. Bush 'trading with the enemy' has been posted many times.

You want to check out all your major companies of the time? They all sold to Germany, before and during the war. Many of them are in court right now over reparations.

I don't read right-wing sites, why do you?

[Hello_Kitty]

71. Which has nothing to do with the claim you made.

You said that protectionism caused the Great Depression. I asked you for links to back that up. You responded with red herrings about the Bush family and WW2.

Links please.

[HeresyLives]

73. Lefties use the same tactics as righties in an argument,

I've noticed. Misquoting is a major part of that gambit.

I said protectionism worsened an already existing Depression into the Great Depression.

Germany defaulting on it's debt caused the Depression.

Try and get it right, and not right-wing.

[Hello_Kitty]

80. Still can't come up with any links I see. It's okay.

BTW, there were multiple factors contributing to the Great Depression, Germany's defaulting on its debt being but one of many.

[HeresyLives]

82. Still can't argue for toffee I see.

I know what caused the Great Depression, so no red herrings please.

[Hello_Kitty]

84. You think you know. eom

[HeresyLives]

86. If myths make you feel better, go for it.

[rhett o rick]

38. What produced the Great Depression? you must be kidding. nt

[HeresyLives]

45. Germany defaulting on it's debt.

I said later, when 'green shoots' started to appear, everyone went protectionist and made the whole thing even worse.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Wrong. I put the numbers up for you.

The protectionism of which you speak (which only lasted from 1930 to 1934) had practically no effect on the U.S. economy.

And Germany's debt was not about protectionism. It was to punish them for WW1.

[HeresyLives]

52. Then I'm afraid you don't know history.

Nor do you understand this conversation.

I said nothing whatever about Germany's debt being about protectionism. I said they defaulted on their debt and that started the dominoes tumbling and produced the Depression. When countries later went protectionist it became the Great Depression.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. Pay no attention to that BLS chart! Don't believe your lying eyes!

:rofl:

[HeresyLives]

57. Ignore your own history, then. It's your choice.

Even Bush's daddy 'traded with the enemy'.

[rhett o rick]

37. Bullshitski. China, India and Japan are kicking our asses. nt

[HeresyLives]

50. Um...that's what I'VE been saying.

[rhett o rick]

55. Because we have 2% tariffs compared to their 30-40 % tariffs. nt

[HeresyLives]

58. Nothing to do with tariffs.

[Hello_Kitty]

62. Keep moving those goal post! Your first post in this thread was a response on tariffs. eom

[HeresyLives]

64. Actually it was about the devastation a trade war

would cause in the US.

[Hello_Kitty]

66. The trade war we're currently losing is already causing devastation. eom

[HeresyLives]

70. You're not IN a trade war. You just have competition.

And competition is a good thing, or so you've always assured everyone. Free markets, competition, self-regulating, all that jazz.

[rhett o rick]

95. It is not a competition when our government allows the huge trade imbalance.

We can not compete building computers because India has a huge tariff while we have near to nothing. Their is nothing fair about this trade. When our companies have to meet environmental standards and Chinese companies, they can sell cheaper. Not fair. If we can tell our manufacturers they have to build products safe, then we need to tell our consumers they are required to buy products that are safe. China builds products containing lead because it is cheaper. You call that competition? We cant compete with that.

[JCMach1]

60. Seriously, name one thing that India couldn't be producing for us cheaply

:sarcasm:

So seriously who needs China...

Who needs iCrap anywany! (serious about that one). If it's going to be that expensive, make the crap in America!

[HeresyLives]

63. LOL they could do so, but they are going in a

different direction.

[TexasObserver]

4. Recommend

We're buyers and they're sellers between the two nations. What they need from us is more essential than what we need from them. We can buy cheap consumer junk made anywhere.

[HeresyLives]

6. Actually they don't need anything from America.

[TexasObserver]

7. That's ill informed.

You'd be surprised what they need from us.

[HeresyLives]

9. Sorry, they need nothing from the US.

They can make anything they need, and they have a whole world to sell it too, without the US.

[TexasObserver]

17. That's very naive.

If China didn't need US markets, it wouldn't be holding a trillion of US securities. If China didn't need US technologies and business acumen, it wouldn't use US companies for designing and building plants, or providing other services.

Your position is patently ridiculous.

[HeresyLives]

18. Sigh. There is a whole world out there for the Chinese

to sell to. They don't need the American market, it was just the easiest one to start with because Americans are big on consumerism.

China has a trillion in foreign reserves, however they own companies and resources all over the world. China is diversified.

[TexasObserver]

19. Yeah, they're surging into the 1970s.

Your propaganda efforts fail.

Next you'll be telling me that Falun Gong threatens China, but US trade sanctions don't.

[HeresyLives]

21. Are you always this suicidal?

Because if you don't face reality, you're cutting your own throat.

[TexasObserver]

24. The topic is the US and its relationship with China.

We're talking about how the US isn't going to tolerate more of China's unfair trade practices and how they need the US markets. If you can't stick with the topic and not to resort to these personal attacks, you should take a break from posting for a while.

[HeresyLives]

26. Yer the one arguing, I'm not.

[TexasObserver]

27. Ever since the Opium Wars the West has dominated China.

That's a simple fact. Pretending it is not true doesn't make it untrue.

China will likely be one of the top world powers within the next 40-50 years. It's advancing, slowly.

[HeresyLives]

29. Until about 1500 CE China had the largest GDP in the world.

Then they ran into a couple of lousy emperors, and fell into a mess. Europe and then NA moved ahead.

China went thru hell, absolutely...but China's been around for over 5000 years, and learned a lot along the way.

In the last 20 years China has gone up the ladder again by leaps and bounds. China stats are freely available.

China is already one of the world's top powers, and to deny that is to ignore reality.

Never underestimate the competition....isn't that an American maxim?

[TexasObserver]

31. The more China abandons Mao's principles, the better it does.

China may one day reclaim the glory of ancient dynasties. It will have to shake off the last vestiges of what Mao inflicted on the country, however. The human rights abuses, of course, are paramount.

[HeresyLives]

33. Mao was a passing problem.

And in a history as long as China's, soon forgotten.

However, China has never been a democracy, and isn't likely to be. Human rights abuses exist in every country in the world.

[TexasObserver]

35. You give China a pass on human rights violations.

They're oppressive. From their mistreatment of Falun Gong members, to their mistreatment of Christians, to their repression of dissent throughout the internet for their citizens, it's still a tyranny of communist party goons and the military.

[HeresyLives]

36. I give no one a pass on it, I said everyone is guilty.

And none of that is relevant to your current economic situation.

[proteus_lives]

88. 50 million+ graves.

Forgotten? Who says it should be?

[HeresyLives]

90. The world is full of graves.

Including graves of long-forgotten famines, wars, and disasters.

[proteus_lives]

93. Wow. China uber alles huh?

I will say this though, you're quite the tap-dancer.

[TexasObserver]

99. GAS is a passing problem. Mao was a mass murderer.

Mao was the one of the top two murderers of all time. Only Stalin can rival Mao.

Your willingness to slough off his murderous Reign of Terror pegs your point of view.

Do you really think anyone believes the propaganda you're spreading?

Do YOU even believe it, or is it simply the answer you've been trained to give about Mao?

[rhett o rick]

39. Bullshitski. They need our money. Duh!!. nt

[HeresyLives]

42. Actually, you need theirs.

[rhett o rick]

44. That's not apparent from the trade deficit. nt

[HeresyLives]

46. It's apparent from every stat available.

[jdp349]

20. Agreed

and this China hysteria has gotten out of hand.

The Chinese own about $800 Bil in US Treasury Bonds. Somehow people have it in their heads that China is the sole financier of US Public Debt and have some sort of magic button that lets them suddenly demand payment in full sending our economy into a tailspin. Even if they flooded the market with bonds it wouldn't do anything unless it was for fundamental reasons. All that would happen otherwise is a bunch of bond traders would be filthy rich very quickly.

Another favorite one of mine is that China manufactures everything and the US doesn't produce anything more...

It's like people spot a trend and then jump to the conclusion that the trend will continue indefinitely leading us to an inevitable extreme without even considering the limitations of the dynamics supposedly responsible for the trend in the first place.

[HeresyLives]

22. I don't know of anyone who's hysterical.

However it's simple fact that China has moved ahead by leaps and bounds, and is still showing major growth while other countries are in the ditch.

Pretending that isn't happening won't solve any problems.

[rhett o rick]

41. So you a big fan of Ayn Rand? nt

[HeresyLives]

48. What do your literary tastes have to do with the economy?

[rhett o rick]

96. Wasnt talking about literary tastes, but philosophical tastes.

I loved Ayn Rand when in high school. Then I entered the real world and found out that John Galt was a complete myth. Capitalism, unrestrained will implode. The big fish eat the little fish until there are no more fish to eat. Wealth gets concentrated in a smaller and smaller numbers of people. You end up with conditions like Haiti. Capitalism runs best with a dictatorial rule.

[TexasObserver]

23. The myth that the US doesn't manufacture any more is a common one.

It's amazing how often one sees an allusion to it.

As you say, if China dumps their US securities, cool. People will buy them up cheap and sell them in a more orderly fashion thereafter.

China holds a small percentage of US obligations. If we stopped buying their cheap products, ten other countries would gladly fill the need.

[HeresyLives]

25. True, the US still manufactures products.

However US manufacturing hit it's highpoint in 1943, and it's been downhill from there.

Next time you go to the store and read 'country of origin' labels. You'll find there are lots of them over and above China.

[Hello_Kitty]

68. Yep. That's what 30 years of "free trade" will get ya. eom

[HeresyLives]

72. You don't HAVE free trade with China.

Or any of the other Asian countries.

[Hello_Kitty]

74. Um yeah, that's why I put the quotes around it. eom

[HeresyLives]

76. Free trade would help, this trade is hit and miss.

[On the Road]

78. I Agree with You About the Debt

and that the US manufactures roughly as much as China does. (It also exports roughly as much as China does, although China has a lot more of the bilateral business.)

I do not agree that other countries would pick up the slack if the US put up trade barriers. China markets their goods to every country now -- reducing US demand doesn't increase anyone else's.

Whether putting up trade barriers would help the economy, hurt the worldwide economy, or just move the imports to producers other than China is another matter. Chomsky is fond of quoting a statistic that 40% of US imports are intra-company, meaning they are not bought from foreign sources but just made in offshore plants of US companies. (I suspect that may have changed in the last decade, though, due specifically to the Chinese.)

[HeresyLives]

81. China could sell a great deal more elsewhere

if it needed too. However they have their hands full already.

Trade barries are a known impediment to all economies, it's protectionism, and we don't want to go thru that again.

The world has globalized, everything is intermingled and interconnected. Road blocks here and there cause worse messes that the financial crisis we're already in.

[On the Road]

87. I Would Like to See More Substantiation

that China could make up anything close to the volume of exports they send to us.

The US is not only the largest market by far, it is also one of the openest, and the trade and business relationships have been well established for years. Here were China's major export partners as of 2007:

Mainland China’s largest trade partner for export shipments is the United States of America, which consumes about 21% of global Chinese exports. Other major clients for Chinese exports include Hong Kong (16% of total Chinese exports), Japan (9.5%), South Korea (4.6%) and Germany (4.2%).

To replace the US, China would have to increase exports to its other leading trade partners by about 2/3. That is a process that will take years, and still wouldn't leave them nearly as well off as maintaining trade ties with the US. There is a robust mutual dependence between the two countries.

[HeresyLives]

89. Check world population. Check world income.

Check China's population, and those available for work in factories as fast as the Chinese can put them up.

You think they can't sell that 21% elsewhere?

With all of the EU sitting there? And Russia and India and Brazil?

Of course it would be work, and cause problems, but such is life.

[On the Road]

92. In 2007,

China's GDP ws $3.4T. Their exports to the US were roughly $250 billion (21% of $1.2T), or 8% of their economy. Losing that would be like the US losing 90% of the construction industry.

[TexasObserver]

98. Utter nonsense.

Only a propagandist would make the ridiculous claims you're making.

China desperately needs US buyers for their cheap exports. That's the reason they'll carp and they'll whine, but they'll end up accepting US trade actions. Sure, they'll talk as if they won't, but that's just old world pride trying to save face.

Unlike you, those in charge of China have to deal with reality, and reality is the US is their biggest customer, so they'll do whatever it takes to keep shipping their cheap junk to the US.

[TexasObserver]

97. Yes, it's absurd to suggest China could suddenly find a new market for its goods.

Even China wouldn't suggest such a ridiculous possibility.

China needs the US markets. It's as simple as that.

Maybe the other poster never heard the old American adage "the customer is always right."

[ddeclue]

69. EXCELLENT! They need us more than we need them!

Tariff away.. it can only help American jobs and our ridiculous trade imbalance!

:applause:

[HeresyLives]

75. China can sell to 5 billion other people.

They don't need the US. However if you cut off Chinese goods, you'll produce massive American unemployment.

[ddeclue]

77. Nope.. China needs us to buy their cheap crap and actually it will CREATE massive numbers of jobs

in America as American jobs come back from China.

[HeresyLives]

79. China can sell to 5 billion other people in the world.

But huge numbers of Americans are involved in selling their products in the US, and they will then be unemployed.

There are no 'American jobs'...there are just jobs, and they may go on from China to Viet Nam to Africa and then to robots, but they aren't 'coming back'.

[ddeclue]

83. That's insane...those American people will NOT lose their jobs..

they'll just be selling AMERICAN made goods instead. China can't sell to 5 billion other people, because 5 billion other people don't have the money to buy the goods. There ARE AMERICAN jobs and perhaps you would be more comfortable blogging at FR.

[HeresyLives]

85. Those jobs aren't coming back.

So they'll have nothing to sell.

There are several billion people in the world quite capable of buying goods. You think everyone is Somalia?

Perhaps you could stop chest-beating long enough to consider the actual topic.

I personally am neither left nor right, and consider questions on their merits

[HeresyLives]

91. The US does big business with Saudi Arabia every day.

It is a militant theocracy that represses everyone, even it's own 'princes'.

Gays, women, Christians, Jews, everyone. It is isolated by choice, you can't visit there. The prisons are a scandal of torture, and they flog and behead people publically...for things that wouldn't even get a traffic ticket here. The whole world knows that.

Yet for some strange reason...oil...Saudi Arabia is never a villain. China is.

India will be as well when you discover they are more than a call-center.

China and India are also huge, population-wise, geographically, militarily and in every other way.

The point is, you'll have to deal with them and their societies whether you like their 'values' or not, the same way you do with Saudi Arabia. So calling them names and fussing over their cultural practices is irrelevant.

It won't solve the competition problem between them and the US.

[Cali_Democrat]

94. How much does China export to the US and how much does Saudi Arabia export to the US?

The reason why people are angry at China is because many of the exports that China dumps on our shores are manufactured goods that we used to create. China is now dumping them on our markets using cheap labor being paid slave wages.

Saudi Arabia exports mainly petroleum products and that was never a threat to our labor force.

China exports much more to us than we export to them. The US can make much more slapping tariffs on those goods.

Can China find markets other than the US? Sure, but right now the US is by far the biggest consumer of Chinese exports and China would be hurt big time.

[Hello_Kitty]

100. I'm not the slightest bit interested in hurting China and am not afraid of them either

I support tariffs on imported goods that we could be making here.