Are the recalled Toyotas from the wonderful non-union factories down South?

[goodboy]

Are they coming from factories in those great "right to work" states?

Just wondering...

[joeybee12]

1. Kicking...good question....anyone? n/t

[joeybee12]

2. Kicking...good question....anyone? n/t

[SKKY]

3. A GREAT question!!!

[trotsky]

4. If it's a software problem, as rumored...

the folks on the assembly line have absolutely nothing to do with it.

But a good thing to keep in mind.

[itsrobert]

9. Correct. The pedal excuse is bullcrap

Parts don't wear out in a few weeks as they are trying to say.

[shadowrider]

5. The problem

Would exist if they were made in Detroit by UAW members. The problem isn't craftsmanship, it's design and last I heard, they're designed elsewhere.

[napi21]

6. I don't know, but I did hear that the problem only affected

Toyota's made in the US, which makes me very sad! I don't recall the article well enough to give a link, but I did read that if your Serial # bagan with a J, it was made in Japan & doesn't have the problem. I know the gas peddles were made to Toyota's soecs, or at least that what the Co. said, but I view this as a black cloud over American Workers!

[Walk away]

8. Why? It's not as if they did a poor job installing or programing a perfectly...

good part or program. It's pretty obvious that it's the design that is the problem not the people who installed them. Why blame the folks on the line?

[napi21]

14. I didn't say I was blaming the folks on the lin! I'm actually blaming the

US co. that made the product. IF it's a design problem, and the peddle's they made were to Toyota's specs, WHY is it only affecting the US made cars? I don't understand????

[divideandconquer]

16. The Lexus that drove off the cliff killing the California state trooper family was

made in Japan.

[napi21]

19. Sorry. That was in the report I read a few days ago. Guess it IS

a worldwide Toyota problem!

That's the problem with stories dribbling out like this. Some people hear some of the stories but not ALL of them!

[rufus dog]

60. Correct

It is likely incorrect to state that the problem is in US built Toyota's. The majority of the issues are with cars from Japan. That being said, it appears to be a design/software issue that has yet to be replicated in a controlled environment.

[Walk away]

25. I'll quote you, " I view this as a black cloud over American Workers"

I can't see how you can read that as anything but blaming the workers in the Toyota plants. Also...they are starting to recall the Prius in Japan. I hope that removes your "black cloud" and the American worker can go on with their lives in the sun.

[DainBramaged]

31. (sigh) who do you think engineered the parts?

The name on the fucking car is TOYOTA and THAT'S WHO IS TO BLAME!

[gkhouston]

11. That's what we're being told. Not sure if that's really true, or just an attempt to

staunch the bleeding. At this point, I feel sorry for folks who drive Toyotas, no matter where they were made. It's got to be pretty frightening, playing car roulette.

[ctaylors6]

7. It's toyota's design for parts made by CTS

[jmowreader]

62. It may not be JUST a CT problem

In http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/press_releases/nr100129.htm CTS states they make no Lexus accelerators (which is strange since on a part like an accelerator one would think they'd just get a container full of one part number and use it on every car they make) and they didn't make accelerators at all prior to 1999.

[MineralMan]

10. What does the union status of those workers have to do

with a part failure? I mean, I'm very pro labor, but this is a ridiculous thing to say. If the parts were incorrectly designed, the assembly workers have nothing to do with the failures.

[Gold Metal Flake]

18. Yes, curious.

A post that seems to wants to pit organized autoworker labor against unorganized autoworker labor, neither of which is responsible for the design or specification or purchasing or QC receiving testing of components or software used in any automobile regardless of manufacturer.

[Dreamer Tatum]

21. Color me curious, too

If the workers were unionized, would they have instantly seen the design flaws, or the software flaws,
or any other problem?

No.

[goodboy]

32. I'm not pitting anyone against anyone else. I'm asking a question.

I'm curious because I seem to remember Toyota always talked about how wonderful it was to have their factories in "right to work" states.

[Gold Metal Flake]

35. Sure, ask away. As long as you ignore the reality that workers have no choice of parts.

Why should you let facts get in the way of your attack on Labor? I'm just asking a question.

[Romulox]

38. Cheap labor is why they build Toyotas in Miss. Not the wonderful education system. nt

[Crabby Appleton]

12. The problem components are manufactured by CTS Corp.

of South Bend, IN. They make good electronic components, it's a bad design by Toyota, not of bad construction. Most if not all of CTS US plants are union.

edit - I think there is more than one cause of the problem.

[rufus dog]

61. As per Toyota!

The LA Times ran a story that the CTS components were only in one car that had an accident and none of the cars with Deaths. It appears that Toyota may be less than forthcoming.

[JCMach1]

13. Good time to stop buying non-Union made cars period...!

If you insist on buying foreign at least make sure it is UNION.

[napi21]

15. Nooo...it's time to stop buying Toyota's! nt

[Broke In Jersey]

17. union - schmunion...

we should care for the American workers, Period! No matter who they pay dues too.

[FLDCVADem]

20. I agree 100% n/t

[divideandconquer]

24. So you're anti-union?

[Broke In Jersey]

26. not at all -

I've worked for 2 unions. One was good, one was useless. I just don't judge individuals or companies based on it.

[Romulox]

44. Why are posters like this continually given new registrations?

Would the first thing you did after registering for a Democratic talk board be use your new account to attack organized labor?

I'm sure this guy is a bona fide new poster, attracted to "progressive" ideals but with a deep enmity for Labor. Yep. I'm sure... :eyes:

[FLDCVADem]

68. For crying out loud

How is it an attack on organized labor to say that we should support American workers, union or not?

[Romulox]

71. No offense, but if you can't riddle that on your own, you won't understand my answer, either. nt

[FLDCVADem]

73. Fair enough

You only give a damn about union workers, and screw all the non-union workers in the country.

[spoony]

111. Anyone who cares for American workers wouldn't say such a thing. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

22. Were any of the exploding Ford Explorers made in Union plants?

Just asking.

[FLDCVADem]

23. Or the exploding Pintos? n/t

[Trekologer]

27. Explorers didn't explode

They rolled over, due to being driven as if they were a car and not a truck with a higher center of gravity combined with tires that experienced catastrophic tread separation due to being under inflated (and not periodically inspected for wear).

[Dreamer Tatum]

28. Yeah they did. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

29. Link to Ford Explorers exploding?

[Gold Metal Flake]

37. No, they didn't.

As Dain pointed out it was a problem with the Firestone tires exacerbated by how unstable tall & heavy SUVs are when they lose a shoe at highway speeds.

[Romulox]

40. So desperate to validate his Toyota purchase that wholecloth fabrication seemed like a good plan...

:silly:

[DainBramaged]

33. (sigh again) The Ford Explorers DIDN'T EXPLODE

the TIRES MADE BY FIRESTONE, A JAPANESE COMPANY, WERE POORLY DESIGNED AND THE TREAD SEPARATED WHEN UNDER-INFLATED.


Rumors, the puke stains of the Internets.

[MadHound]

82. Nah, it wasn't the Ford Exploreres,

It was the Crown Vics, one of the most popular cop cars at the time. Good show Ford, blowing up cops.

[Romulox]

41. Ummm, Firestone tires are made in Japan. No rule against googling before posting.

:hi:

[Mopar151]

52. Actually, Firestone is owned by Bridgestone

And the questionable tires were made in Illinois (IIRC) The workers were ordered to build the tires in violation of standard procedures. Many of the union workers objected, were told to "shut up and do it". Kinda like the roof collapse in the Big Dig tunnel.

[Romulox]

55. Kabushiki-gaisha Bridgestone is a Japanese company.

This game where an irresponsible Japanese company can simply shunt blame for its defective products on the fact that it outsources work are quickly coming to a close.

[Gold Metal Flake]

58. Grammar Nazi, attack thyself.

:rofl:

[goodboy]

30. wow.

More problems coming out. Do we have an answer yet?

[Gold Metal Flake]

36. Answer to what? Why you are attacking Labor?

I wonder myself. I'm just asking.

[Romulox]

43. "Labor" means unionized workers. There's no rule against googling before you post, you know. nt

[Gold Metal Flake]

45. Labor means labor. But good try separating workers into "us vs. them".

The bankers love you.

[Romulox]

48. So your argument is predicated on making up new definitions for well defined words?

Good luck with that project. But since language is a system of shared symbols it makes you look ignorant to misspell/miscapitalize words whilst pretending at lecturing on a subject.

[Gold Metal Flake]

51. Getting back to the arguement, I'm not the one bashing workers.

You can change the subject if you want.

[FLDCVADem]

75. +1

Only union workers matter - didn't you get the memo?

[FLDCVADem]

70. Bull n/t

[DainBramaged]

34. Toyota factories in the South

Toyota Motor Manufacturing Alabama

Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky

Toyota Motor Manufacturing Mississippi

Toyota Motor Manufacturing Texas

Toyota Motor Manufacturing West Virginia




Toyota has received a little over a billion USD in federal, state, and local government tax subsidies and incentives including:

$323.9 million in subsidies for the plant in Tupelo from Mississippi taxpayers. <1><2>
$371 million in subsidies for the Georgetown plant from Kentucky taxpayers.<3><4>
$227.5 million in subsidies and tax incentives for the Tundra plant by Local, Texas, and U.S. taxpayers. <5><6>
$125 million (Canadian) in subsidies to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs. <7>
$29 million in subsidies for the Huntsville Engine plant by Alabama taxpayers<8>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Engineering_&_Manufacturing_North_America

[dysfunctional press]

39. the people who assemble the cars don't design them....

it has nothing to do with whether they are union or non-union.

[Romulox]

42. They build these things were they can find the absolute CHEAPEST, LEAST EDUCATED workers.

Anybody surprised that cheap labor = crap product?

As DUers say, "Union When It's Convenient!"

[Gold Metal Flake]

47. US workers don't design or specify the parts. Failures have been seen worldwide.

There's no rule against Googling before you post, you know.

[Romulox]

49. They uniformly build these plants in places with the lowest education, standard of living

There's a reason Toyota chose states that are 45, 48th in the nation in educational attainment to build their plants: cheap, pliable (and most importantly, expendable) labor.

[Gold Metal Flake]

50. Irrelevant to the problem.

But keep hammering on the workers. The bankers thank you.

[Romulox]

54. Well, add "irrelevant" to the list of words that need to be redefined for you to make sense.

This is a waste of my time. :hi:

[Gold Metal Flake]

56. Still trying to change the subject.

Maybe you could bash workers in some other thread. :hi:

[ieoeja]

92. Do you actually believe ANYBODY here buys your soundbite?

I have two ways of arguing with Republicans.

When they come out with some convoluted logic, I respond, "you and I both know that you don't actually believe what you said. You're just hoping some of the people listening to us won't think it through and thereby end up agreeing with you. So I'm not going to offer any counter arguments, I'm just going to let everyone else here think about what you just said until they realize how stupid it was."

When they keep repeating some soundbite over and over, I respond, "my kid used to argue like that. I think he was about ten years old when he realized that was a stupid way of arguing."

[Gold Metal Flake]

104. OK, you explain how the workers at a Toyota plant are responsible for the pedal problem.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

[madokie]

46. I'm sure most of them are

[surrealAmerican]

53. These are NOT manufacturing defects, but design flaws.

It's not relevant to the problems where they were assembled.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gold Metal Flake]

59. Huh?

[DainBramaged]

63. UNION RULES

[surrealAmerican]

64. I'm not happy with toyota for hiring non-union labor, ...

... it's just not the issue in this case. The design flaws would still exist, even if the manufacturing was done in union shops.

[Major Hogwash]

97. hee hee hee

Kick 'em in the groinsack, oooops, I mean teabag.

LoL

[court jester]

65. TTAC: Complete Guide To Toyota’s Gas Pedals: Teardown, Pictures, Toyota’s Fix, Analysis, Commentary

The Truth About Cars: Complete Guide To Toyota’s Gas Pedals: Teardown, Pictures, Toyota’s Fix, Analysis, Commentary

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ttacs-complete-guide-to-toyotas-gas-pedals-teardown-pictures-toyotas-fix-analysis-commentary/

[Zomby Woof]

66. OOo! A South-bashing thread!

We were overdue!

Time to build some instant "liberal" cred and bash them thar crackers down south! How convenient to use Toyota this time. :think:



:hurts:

[Shell Beau]

67. We were overdue! We be dumb down here.

[Zomby Woof]

113. Get back in the kitchen, woman

And make me some dadblamed cornbread. :P

[TexasObserver]

69. Richard Shelby country. He's their hack.

[LoKnLoD]

72. I worked at the Toyota Plant in Georgetown KY

They were VERY VERY generous with their pay, benefits and perks to their employees. No one was concerned that it was a non union job. They brought high paying, secure jobs to a rural area and provided 6000+ Kentucky residents some security. It took up to 3 years to get hired there because once you were in you would be a fool to leave.

[Shell Beau]

74. Well you must be uneducated and poor if you worked at one

of the plants in the south. It is true, someone even said so above. :eyes:

[FLDCVADem]

76. Just keep in mind that to some people

The workers at that plant don't matter - they aren't union, so they are't labor, and they just don't matter.

[Romulox]

80. And other people are self-appointed champions at demolishing arguments only they have made. nt

[FLDCVADem]

84. You made the argument loud and clear

Own it.

[Romulox]

86. Exact quote please. nt

[FLDCVADem]

88. "Labor" means unionized workers.

Your words, not mine.

[Romulox]

No, I mean all the overly-emotive, hurt feelings crap about people "not mattering".

:silly: :hi:

[FLDCVADem]

94. I don't have any hurt feelings over this

You're a name on a message board, nothing more, nothing less, and I don't invest myself in names.

But when you non-union workers irrelevant by saying they aren't labor, then you are saying they don't matter.

[Romulox]

96. So...no quote then... nt

[FLDCVADem]

106. I gave the quote

You may not like, but as you stated very clearly downthread, non-union workers are scabs.

[Romulox]

79. That's because the point of moving to the cheap labor south is to undercut workers in the NORTH,

not your neighbors.

[FLDCVADem]

87. Car companies are in business to turn a profit

They aren't in business to provide jobs, union or otherwise. If they make a better deal in the south, and the people in the south are happy with the jobs, happy with the company and happy with what they make, good on 'em.

If you care about pay and benefits as much or more than union membership, it shouldn't matter to you whether a company is unionized or not, so long as they are doing right by their employees.

[Romulox]

89. Isn't this a longwinded way of saying that you support "race to the bottom" cheap labor?

Just put that sort of thing in your first post to me next time, k? It'll save me time. :hi:

[FLDCVADem]

107. Not at all

It's my way of saying that I support American workers, unionized or not.

You've made it clear that you don't - I applaud the honesty if not the sentiment itself.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

77. Uh, since it was a DESIGN issue rather than an ASSEMBLY issue...

...it doesn't matter one bit where it was assembled or by whom it was assembled.

[izzybeans]

78. A better question is who is trying to organize them?

it does the labor movement a disservice to pit working people against each other in the same way that our employers do. Not that I think this is what this OP is about, but some fairly consistent posters on this issue continually do it and on this thread even.

[Romulox]

81. Toyota only builds plants in "Right to Work" states. Don't you think the UAW would like to organize

at these plants? :hi:

[izzybeans]

83. So its just give up a piss on the people in those states then?

The UAW actively pursues legislation as well and I can't believe that they would just run away and hide because of right to work. It makes unions harder, not impossible. Who is educating the workers on the importance of that so that when they vote this issue is a priority?

Besides Toyota is in Indiana, which has collective bargaining.

[Romulox]

85. "Right to work" is state legislation, which presumably reflects the will of the voters...

You're going to blame the UAW to the traditional hostility Southern voters have shown toward unions? Really? It's a stretch.

"Who is education the workers on the importance of that so that when they vote this issue is a priority?"

Maybe you don't understand. This isn't a matter of them "not understanding". It's a matter of economic competition. Southern states see a competitive advantage vis a vis the North in that they can offer cheaper labor. Many of the Southern workers refuse to join the UAW because they see it as removing a competitive advantage. That's really as complex as the story is.

[FLDCVADem]

91. Then they obviously don't agree that unionizing would be good for them

Are you suggesting they should unionize even it takes away good jobs?

[Romulox]

95. No, I'm suggesting they can be as mercenary as they like. But you don't get kudos for being a scab.

Ruthless on one hand, insecure on the other. Yep, that's the South for ya! :rofl:

[FLDCVADem]

98. Ah, got it

Anyone that takes a non-union job that is unionized in another area is a scab.

At least you're honest in your bigotry.

[Romulox]

100. I'm comfortable with that. Now, if you'll excuse me, Granny needs me down to the cement pond! nt

[izzybeans]

101. Ummm who blamed the UAW for anything? I asked a rhetorical question

But here is an example of what could be an answer. http://www.uaw1413.org/ I just think this is where our energy should be focused.

Of course its an education issue. Southern politicians, not states (since states aren't people and can't act) see a competitive advantage along with the employer, Toyota's strategic planners included. These same planners also see a competitive advantage to keeping unions out. So they convince these politicians to muck around with the right to organize and give it the orwellian name right to work. Factory workers do not seek jobs based on competitive advantage. They seek the jobs that are available in their area. Very few actually listened to Ronald Reagan and moved from Flint to Texas.

Just because Factory owners have a competitive advantage to exploit cheaper labor doesn't mean it is not in the interests of the workers to join together and bargain for a better deal for themselves. In Indiana I know many Toyota workers who mistakenly believe that they would earn less if they unionized. The only problem here is that the competitive advantage that Toyota has to move and shift its operations to non-union shops (if they organized locally) is still there, so that advantage has to be systematically dismantled. So sure, the short term fears that they have about losing their jobs always win out.

The point in my rhetorical question was "shouldn't we be focusing on strengthening the workers movement instead of pretending that this recall issue has anything to do with their competence?" Non-union workers are skilled tradespeople too and they should be seen as potential allies against both foreign and domestic manufacturers. The problem with Toyota is systemic and quality assurance seems to me something unions can help with and protect more strongly than what Toyota's accountants can.

[Romulox]

103. You asked if they "run away and hide" from the South in which the populace is hostile to unions

It's an absurd framing.

Southern politicians, not states (since states aren't people and can't act

Actually, States are primary political units in our Constitutional Republic (you'll note that it is the States, not the people therein, which are represented in the Senate,) and they indeed act through their agents. Even if it were not so, it's never encouraging when a long post starts off on a pedantic note, is it? :silly:

Factory workers do not seek jobs based on competitive advantage. They seek the jobs that are available in their area. Very few actually listened to Ronald Reagan and moved from Flint to Texas.

It's really hard for me to get past this to even read the rest of your post. Perhaps you aren't familiar with Flint, but you simply are wrong on this point. Horribly and desperately wrong.

Just because Factory owners have a competitive advantage to exploit cheaper labor doesn't mean it is not in the interests of the workers to join together and bargain for a better deal for themselves.

There would be no auto industry in Alabama, or Mississippi without cheap labor and Right to Work. It's as simple as that--Southern workers are aligned with management in this attempt to lure industry from the high wage North to the cheap labor South.

[divideandconquer]

116. Toyota has received a billion dollars worth of aid from the Confederacy

Corporate welfare and government subsidies

Toyota has received a little over a billion USD in federal, state, and local government tax subsidies and incentives including:
$323.9 million in subsidies for the plant in Tupelo from Mississippi taxpayers. <1><2>
$371 million in subsidies for the Georgetown plant from Kentucky taxpayers.<3><4>
$227.5 million in subsidies and tax incentives for the Tundra plant by Local, Texas, and U.S. taxpayers. <5><6>
$125 million (Canadian) in subsidies to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs. <7>
$29 million in subsidies for the Huntsville Engine plant by Alabama taxpayers<8>
----------------------------
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Engineering_&_Manufacturing_North_America>

[FLDCVADem]

90. Then they should organize

"Right to work" doesn't mean unions are banned. If the UAW can organize the workers, then they should do so.

[Romulox]

93. You're just flailing about and being silly now. I doubt you know what "Right to Work" even means.

ZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzz.

Please don't over-emote in my direction. I'm not interested.

[FLDCVADem]

99. I know exactly what it means

Apparently you don't though, since you seem to believe that unions can't exist in right to work states.

Someone should tell they employees at the unionized Giant down the street that they really don't have a union, since Virginia is a right to work state.

[nonconformist]

102. American workers are the new Clenis.

Blame, blame, blame, even when faced with opposing evidence.

It's Toyota's fault. Their software, their design. Those workers should unionize, but they won't.

[DainBramaged]

105. Here's one, Toyota has LESS than 20,000 American workers RETIRED from the plants

how many UAW members worked long enough to retire, and why doesn't Toyota have the same job tenure statistics as the Union plants????

[FLDCVADem]

108. The most obvious reason is because Toyota

has only had plants in the U.S. since 1984. The very longest anyone could have worked for them here is 25-26 years.

[DainBramaged]

109. Yeah, so are you saying that not enough people went through the plants?

Give me a break.................Keep defending their labor practices......

[FLDCVADem]

110. That's exactly what I mean

You can't compare the numbers between factories in place for 25 years with those from factories in place for nearly one hundred years. Well, you can, but not and be taken seriously.

And yes, I will defend the labor practices of a company that provides good paying jobs with good benefits, be the factory unionized or not. Would you feel better if the people in the southern factories lost those jobs to someplace else for the purpose of unionization?

[DainBramaged]

112. Bye

Been UAW since 1983 when I assembled Blazers at the Linden NJ plant. The japanese were ALWAYS afraid to come North because they'd have to pay for SKILLED labor.


Don't tell me they pay good and have food benefits, the turnover is three times what it is in Northern UAW plants.


You've shown yourself to be anti-Union this thread

[FLDCVADem]

114. And you've shown yourself to be a reactionary

"Either for the unions or against the unions"...sounds remarkably Bush-like.

I'm for American workers, unionized or not.

[FLDCVADem]

115. A couple of other points

Your implication that non-union labor equates to unskilled labor demonstrates both ignorance and bias.

And you can claim whatever you want about turnover in the southern plants, but they're thriving...how are the unionized northern plants doing?

[DainBramaged]

117. Merry Christmas

It never fails how some of you anti-Union types have to get the last word in just like the paid hacks on the talking head shows.


Your personal attack on me proves one thing, the ignorance and bias comes from you.


Toodles..............