Should The VT Killer Get A Memorial Stone?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

There's a story on AOL about a student who has twice set up a stone memorial for the killer in last weeks tragedy. There are 32 stones for each of the victims, but she feels as if the person who committed the crimes also deserves one, as he too was a "victim."

I'm wondering what the consensus here is. There are more than a few posts on AOL saying that she must be a "liberal," since only a liberal would care about someone like this. Further, some even go so far as to say the killer must also be a liberal, because if he were repub, this so-called liberal student, would never have felt sympathy for the guy.

I think it's a bunch of BS. I'm guessing there are some here who do think the stone is a good and fair idea, but I sure don't. I have ZERO sympathy, and ZERO compassion for someone capable of committing such an act. I don't care what caused them to do it, or what extenuating factors contributed to the mass killings.

Perhaps those who agree with the memorial, can share with me how they can feel such a monster should be remembered in a favorable light, or prayed for. Anybody who holds it in their souls of shooting 32+ innocent folk point blank, deserves nothing but contempt and best wishes for a crispy afterlife in the depths of hell.

[ShortnFiery]

1. IMO, if you are truly a humane and compassionate person, you can also

recognize, at one time, "the killer" was someone's precious baby boy. I can value human life as Jesus has set the example for me as a Christian.

Our liberal parish rang the bell 33 times (the killer was included with his victims) at our Sunday Mass. If you wish to "walk the walk" of PRO-LIFE, all human life is precious and only GOD can decide when it should end ... not other humans or state sponsored executions for they all equate to MURDER, not JUSTICE :shrug:

[WinkyDink]

20. Just remember those"precious" babies George Bush and Dick Cheney, then.

[ShortnFiery]

30. Well, to be honest with you, I'm a liberal Catholic. Personally, I would not

choose to get an abortion, HOWEVER, I don't choose for other people and I can't say what I would have done at the age of 14 and 16 if pregnant.

Therefore, I am pro-life 100%. My biggest fear is wasting away from cancer but my husband of 25 years promised me that he'd make sure that I'd have plenty of pain medication ... even if we have to move to Oregon or California to get a Rx. :blush:

I don't preach AGAINST abortion because I'm also aware that not everyone is Catholic. My beloved father was agnostic but I know he went to Heaven. No one with such a warm and compassionate soul could be denied.

I hope that helps explain my view and that I'm not in conflict with the Democratic Party?

You can be liberal and be (personally) pro-life, well I'm trying. :shrug:

[spoony]

63. Great post!

[ccpup]

2. someone may kill

but they are also the child of someone, the brother or sister of someone, a friend, a grandchild, a nephew or niece. like every child, there were hopes and dreams the parents had. despite their action they are still a person and, although one can find it difficult to find sympathy for the "WHAT" they did, I find it petty to deny a marker for those who want to remember the person in their happier days to come and visit.

just my opinion.

[PSPS]

3. The Amish taught us a good lesson about this.

It's hard to believe that this happened only six months ago.

I say let the poor kid rest in peace. It was a tragic end to a tragic life.

[BlooInBloo]

5. However one might fault the Amish, that sure showed character.

EDIT: Among the most Christian acts performed EVER, imo.

[ShortnFiery]

10. No, it is the ONLY Christian view: Forgiveness not Retribution.

[BlooInBloo]

13. I have no idea what you're talking about, nor how it relates to what I said.

[ShortnFiery]

15. It fully relates because their stated intentions toward forgiveness is NOT an act, CHRISTIAN ...

by it's very essence. What you missed is that, if you truly study the New Testament, Jesus would want all Christians to NOT hate ... not even the most evil among us.

Hope this helps? I'm merely stating that what the Amish did was LIVING as true Christians (Christ like). :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

23. I meant "act" as in "action", not as in "theater".

EDIT: I still have no idea what you're talking about, but hopefully that clarification is helpful.

[ShortnFiery]

25. Then you are not trying to understand. IMO, you are trying to give approval for self-righteousness

on the part of those posting for the victims. That is JUST my opinion.

Finally, there is NO need for clarification as all you are attempting to do is critique my viewpoints. Enough already, professor. :eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

28. Ooookkkaaaayyyy.....

[zanne]

50. Everyone is entitled to a headstone.

A person was born and lived a life much like many others. He was a sick person and caused alot of heartbreak and destruction, but he was a person. I'm not religious, but I believe in God and my God would want him to have a headstone.

[ShortnFiery]

9. That's because GOD loves the sinner as much as the righteous.

No, killers will be judged and sent to hell, but GOD weeps in disappointment at their actions and remains hopeful until the end of earthly life, that those who sin to make amends ... to us believers GOD always remains open to sinful people to change.

God loves ALL of humankind, not just the Churchgoers ... for his love is, if you believe, is forever and unconditional. :shrug:

[AnneD]

27. Thank you...

for some reason, I have thought so often about this young boy during all the media circus. How tortured he must have been, that this alternative was the best he could hope for. I think of his parents, torn between grief at the loss of their child and the shame of his actions and the guilt for what he did. They will never know a waking moment when they won't think, what did we do wrong, why did we not do this or that, could we have changed. They probably want to crawl in the grave with him. This is truly a profound tragedy. There were no right or wrong here, just sorrow.
And the Amish are right, forgiveness is the beginning of the healing process, otherwise the grief will eat you alive.
I guess as the parent of a high school jr., this hit really close to home. Her birthday is April 19 and almost all her life, we have had these crazy tragic event happen on one of her happiest days. I can't hide them like I use to and we have become hypersensitive. We love her birthday but we hate that week in April. We make a big deal out of Earth Day-try to reaffirm life.

[Exultant Democracy]

57. Yes the Amish showed the nation amazing strength.

[bigwillq]

4. I think he should get one

He was indeed a mentally sick individual but some people are mourning his loss and he should get one as well as the other 32 victims.

[murloc]

6. The killer was not a murder victim.

He freely choose to die and received his wish by his own hand.

The victims were those in his path.

Nonetheless, if his parents wish to place a memorial stone at his grave, that is certainly their right.

[Midlodemocrat]

8. No, but he was a victim nonetheless.

Of bad genes, or a disturbed mind, or a crumbling mental health system.

To have compassion for him the way the people of Columbine did when the crosses were erected for Klebold and Harris doesn't cost us anything.

In fact, I believe compassion like that enriches us.

[LisaL]

42. And the two Columbine killers were apparently role models for

Cho, as he called them martyrs.
I mean, come on.

[Midlodemocrat]

46. Feel however you wish.

Bitterness and hate destroy the holder, not the recipient.

The father of someone killed in Oklahoma whose name escapes me probably sleeps a lot better than some of the other victims for forgiving McVeigh. They relive it every anniversary, the hate, the rage. They're entitled to feel that way, but forgiving is a better path to peace.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. Yes. Someone that sick is still someone's child.

I abhor what he did, obviously, but he was sick and we, as human beings, should have compassion for the mentally ill. JMHO. YMMV.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

11. What About The Families Of Those He Killed?

You say that it's ok to pray for his soul. If it were one of your own family members, or a close friend who was killed, would you feel the same compassion?

In a slightly different vein....do you grieve for the suicide bomber who takes the lives of 10+ American soldiers in Iraq? Would you put up a memorial for him as well? After all, he was just doing what he believed in, and fulfilling his "religious" beliefs.

[ShortnFiery]

14. Yeah, maybe they too can have the opportunity to live out full blown emotional

illness such as we see in Mark Klaus. Each time he's asked to appear as a consultant, you can see him reliving the anger he has for Polly's killer. It's like "a retribution fix" for him ... and it is sad.

People need to love one another, grieve fully and then get on with life.

Our role, if we choose to be humanitarians, is not VENGEANCE and RETRIBUTION ... who would we make "our deciders" then? :shrug:

[GaYellowDawg]

21. One problematic sentence...

"People need to love one another, grieve fully and then get on with life."

I think it's a little soon to tell this to the families of the VT victims. I also think it's overly blithe to tell people how to grieve over the violent deaths of family members unless you've gone through that yourself.

[ShortnFiery]

22. I'm not TELLING anyone anything. That's your invention. I'm discussing process.

Violent death within a family ... how's a shotgun to the head of a loved one? Does that qualify? Yes, I've been through such grief. :eyes:

[GaYellowDawg]

24. "People need to"

That sounds like telling to me, but honestly? That all became beside the point when you told me what you went through. It means you have an understanding that I don't.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Bullshit! I'm talking about long term. You really are over the line here.

You know, if you wish to get all self-righteous for the victims, you have my permission to do that without picking at my statements above. If it makes you feel better, have at it.

However, those, including myself who have experienced violent death within our families MUST go through the GRIEVING PROCESS.

"People need to" ... yes it's a process. And if they choose NOT to grieve and love one another, they are left *bitter* and *angry* at the dead killer ... for the rest of their lives.

Now, if you like "bitter and angry" feel free NOT to Grieve and "love one another."

What gets my cackles up is "self-righteous" banter ... such as desire for retribution. :shrug:

[GaYellowDawg]

31. Whoa, whoa

I think you completely misinterpreted that post. What I was saying was that up until I read your reply to me, "need to" sounded like directions, but after seeing your reply and what you've been through, I realized you have a perspective that I simply do not.

What I meant, and should have just come out and said, was, "you know what you're talking about, and I'll shut up now."

[ShortnFiery]

33. Hey, that's cool. I'm admittedly a little overly spicy tonight.

You know, grief work does last a lifetime and different subjects tweak us.

Thank you and have an excellent evening. :hug: :hi:

[GaYellowDawg]

34. Well, I think you are showing admirable self-restraint!

I'd probably be completely incoherently frothing at the mouth. I can guarantee you that I would have to have a lot of help, from friends, family, and professional therapy, to get to where you are. You strike me as more resilient than I am.

[ShortnFiery]

35. No way. I think we all muddle though the best we know how ...

You are no slouch if you can put up with even a little of my brusque retorts. ;) Sorry, I disappoint myself at times and you seem to be just fine to me. :hi:

[GaYellowDawg]

37. Well, just for you...

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[orleans]

61. we all cope with this in different ways, the best we can

you seemed to have forgiven the person who shot your "loved one" in the head. that is your coping mechanism, and how you chose to move on.

others travel a different path. who are you to decide how to judge others trying to cope with their anger and grief as you did with Mark Klaus and your derogatory remark about him having "the opportunity to live out full blown emotional illness"

some of us, for whatever reason, cope differently than you. some of us never forgive a person who has killed someone we love. some of us stay angry, some of us find it more difficult than you to simply "get on with life"

not wanting a memorial stone for the killer by the other memorial stones of the victims is hardly "vengeance" or "retribution".

a memorial is to honor or celebrate the memory of a person.

will you honor or celebrate the memory of the person who put a shotgun to the head of your loved one?

[PSPS]

19. Sorry, OCD, but not all of us require a minimum amount of hatred to get us through each day.

[Sequoia]

12. When the Columbine students were killed some man built

crosses for all of them including the shooters but angry men kept taking them off the hill. Does Timothy McVeigh have a stone somewhere?

[WinkyDink]

16. There's no accounting for idiots.

[GaYellowDawg]

17. Perhaps - but with a qualifier.

Not in the presence, or in the same location, as his victims. They deserve to be remembered free from their killer.

[malaise]

18. How is a mentally ill human being

a monster? Geez.

[Geek_Girl]

29. The Cho was also a victim because he was a very mentally ill person

who desperately needed treatment and fell throw the cracks. I can see why someone would have compassion for him. Compassion is not a liberal or conservative thing it's just a human thing. This student has allot of compassion in her heart I wish I had as much.

The people on AOL sound really silly and stupid IMHO.

[WinkyDink]

32. Should Jeffrey Dahmer? Charlie Manson? WTH??

[Warpy]

36. He was CRAZY and was allowed to fall through the cracks

by an uncaring health care system.

Sane human beings don't do what he did.

So yeah, the other 32 victims were his casualties, but he's a casualty of stingy, conservative government for the last 38 years.

[LisaL]

44. Oh give me a break. Everybody is a victim, I guess.

Nobody has any personal responsibility anymore.

[murloc]

56. Those who feel compassion for Chou, do you feel the same for Bush?

George Bush is a psychotic who has killed hundreds of thousands. And he continues to do so.

Why is Bush this way? Alcoholic perhaps? Bad Family influence? Drugs? Mental Illness?

All viable possibilities.

Maybe he's just an evil f***.

But even evil people were once good. At one point in time, Bush was an innocent baby...as was Chou.


If you wish to memorialize chou, I *DO* understand (although I disagree).

But if you wish to, would how would you feel about a memorial to Bush on the same piece of marble along with all his victims sometime in the future?

Just something to think about.

Its ok to feel compassion for some even when they commit terrible acts.

However I don't believe its ok to group together the victims with the victimizers.

[dansolo]

38. Should the 19 9/11 hijackers be added to a memorial for their victims?

I hate to bring up 9/11, but I believe the analogy is apt. The hijackers on 9/11 died along with their victims. Should they be memorialized as well? I don't care how mentally ill Cho was, and his family can memorialize him however they see fit, but placing a memorial for him alongside the memorial for his victims is offensive.

[LisaL]

40. Exactly.

[LisaL]

39. No.

I don't think a memorial stone for the killer is a good idea.

[iverglas]

41. he may have been a victim, and he may deserve memorial

But not as part of a memorial to the people he killed. How obvious is that?

Undoubtedly someone died in a house fire that day, and deserves a memorial. But not as part of the memorial to the people killed on that campus by that individual.

I have read the coroner's report on the people who died at the Montreal Polytechnique in 1989, when Marc Lépine shot and killed 14 women engineering students and then himself. He was included in the coroner's investigation (both the autopsies and the investigation into the circumstances -- the "by what means" and the "how" of the deaths), as one of the people who died in the incident, and thus as properly part of the coroner's investigation into it. Those are matters of fact.

A memorial is not a matter of fact, it is an expression of emotions.

Perhaps those who agree with the memorial, can share with me how they can feel such a monster should be remembered in a favorable light, or prayed for. Anybody who holds it in their souls of shooting 32+ innocent folk point blank, deserves nothing but contempt and best wishes for a crispy afterlife in the depths of hell.

I don't agree with including Cho in the memorial, but I also don't have to share your feelings about him. It might be wise to separate the two issues.

[misanthrope]

43. He doesn't need one...

...he's gotten everything he ever wanted with all the public discourse (and distraction) over his actions in the last two weeks.

His name has been on more lips than any of the victims' names.

[Wetzelbill]

45. my impulse is no, but as a Christian and someone with some

empathy, I would have to say yes. Cho himself was a tragedy. The whole thing is one. I think Jesus, whether you believe he was the son of God or not, was a good person to listen to anyway, and he embraced sinners and the people society hated and screwed over. So my anger aside, I wouldn't be opposed to him having a stone. I couldn't say if I was there if I would build one myself, but, you know.. fuck I just don't know what to say. It's a hard one either way. I feel contempt towards the kid for sure, but probably not enough hatred to deny him, or the person putting up the stone, a memorial.

[treestar]

67. HIs family deserves the stone

And dead is dead, there's no point in being vengeful or vindictive towards his family.

[jmg257]

47. We keep calling the likes of Cho "victims", and they get off WAAYY too easy for THEIR actions.

Screw him, and all other murderers. I don't care how "mental" they may be - the sick fucks are beyond redemption. He selfishly took the lives of 32 others - all innocent. The best thing he ever did was kill himself, it was just too late to save all the others.

Someone wants to pray for him - fine; as for me - no thanks.

[fujiyama]

48. Fuck No!

And who said anything about this being a Christian memorial anyways? I'm not Christian and frankly don't give a fuck about forgiving him.

He was a fucking psychopath. You don't flip out, kill people, and get to be thought of as a "victim". People apparently TRIED reaching out to him. They tried to get him help. If you never open up, and never allow yourself to be helped, you are no longer a victim at that point.

And in the end, we lost over thirty people that shouldn't have died.

[LisaL]

49. Add to this-it does not look to me that he just "flipped."

He had bought that first gun in advance. He had gone to practice his shooting.
It seems like a lot of planning went into this.
Mentally ill or not, this does not appear to be someone who just "flipped."

[fujiyama]

64. Good point

This makes him all the more cold, calculated, bloodthirsty, and well...evil.

[brentspeak]

51. I agree with you: Only a nutcase would want to memorialize a mass murderer

I agree that Cho was a psychotic who apparently was under some kind of interior compulsion to carry out his massacre. But my sympathy for his condition goes no further than that. He's the reason we're even talking about this.

[treestar]

52. He's dead, and trying to pretend he did not exist does not help anything

They did this with the Columbine killers, too.

His family still mourns him, and they have every right too. This kind of thinking is very vindictive.

[LisaL]

54. Yes, and Columbine killers were apparently an inspiration for Mr. Cho.

Martyrs, as he called them.
So, maybe what they did with Columbine killers was wrong after all?
Geez.

[orleans]

59. no one is pretending he didn't exist--all you have to do is look at

the memorial of everyone he slaughtered and it is quite obvious he did exist

if his family is mourning for him then let them put together a private memorial for him. but to publicly include a memorial stone for this mass murderer alongside his victims is disrespectful of everyone who he massacred.

memorial: noun: "Something, such as a monument or holiday, intended to celebrate or honor the memory of a person or an event."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/memorial
]b]
"TO CELEBRATE OR HONOR THE MEMORY OF A PERSON"

now, explain to this liberal here, (other than perhaps his family) why the FUCK anyone would want to celebrate or honor the memory of this killer?

and if you CAN explain that to me, then explain to me when our standards got so goddamn low?

[murloc]

53. If a guy robs a 7/11, kills the clerk and then the cops kill the robber

We feel pity for the clerk, not the killer/robber.

The clerk would be the victim.

Yes, we can reach further and say that the robber was a victim of his environment, his upbringing, perhaps even his mental health, etc. Indeed that is the case many times.

The most innocent people here are the victims of the VT killer. While we can reacher further and perhaps agree that the VT killer was a victim of mental illness, he is certainly not completely innocent. I suspect he had some moments of lucidity during his months of planning to question right and wrong. It seems unlikely that he would have 0% sense of right and wrong. Its not like he was out robbing liquor stores, murdering people every day.

Memorials of this sort are there to remember the victims, not the instigators.

It might be appropriate for a seperate memorial for the killer himself as a victim of mental illness, however it would highly insulting to lump together the killer with his victims.

[ls317]

55. No

[piedmont]

58. NO!!!

This student may need some sort of evaluation-- defacing a memorial that people put up for the victims in order to "honor" the killer is not rational behavior. Especially disturbing is that she keeps doing it.

[AZBlue]

60. I think that the students of VA Tech should be the ones to discuss and decide this.

I would hope they would, but it's entirely their call.

[Canuckistanian]

62. Leave it to his family

He deserves no recognition from the public.

Not even a commemoration of his deed.

His victims, yes.

[Eurobabe]

65. Maybe he should get a stone as a victim of the US healthcare system

but for nothing else.

[orleans]

66. i've posted two times on this thread already, and now i'll respond to you

i consider myself to be liberal (a bleeding heart liberal, actually)--so much for those posts on aol you mentioned where people were saying that person "must be a "liberal," since only a liberal would care about someone like this"

i say absolutely no memorial stone for the killer to be put anywhere near memorial stones for the victims.

the posts here have pointed out the killer was obviously a victim in certain ways, the killer chose to die by his own hand, and someone asked even the victim is a victim--does no one take any responsibility for their actions anymore? (something to that effect)

all good points.

bottom line: a memorial, as i have pointed out two times here, is to celebrate and honor the memory of a person. to put a memorial stone for the killer in a public memorial would be disrespectful to those who were massacred. it is completely inappropriate. and extremely insensitive to the the victim's families and friends who are still trying to cope with their shock and grief and loss.


(interesting thread--thanks for posting)

[Silence Dogood]

68. Yes, in Hell!

[KitchenWitch]

69. I am conflicted about this.

The part of me that wishes for retribution says "Hell no, he should not be memorialized."

There is a part of me that strives to practice forgiveness, and this part of me says, "Yes, he died as well, and he was loved by his family".

How our society and government handles mental illness is reprehensible. I am no psychiatrist, but I do think that Cho Seung-Hui probably suffered from grave mental illness. So grave that homicide and suicide were likely the only ways out that he could see. He had been hospitalized for some sort of mental breakdown in the past, so it stands to reason that he likely was being undertreated, if he was being treated at all. The fact is, thirty-THREE people died that day.