The problem with the Toyota gas pedal explanations

[Atman]

So Toyota is sticking to its story (pun intended) about the accelerator pedal merely sticking, as opposed to the more plausible explanation of a larger problem with its drive-by-wire design. "More plausible" are my words. Here's why: if you were driving along at 50 mph and your gas pedal got stuck, why would the car then ACCELERATE to a much faster speed? In a couple of the most notable instances, to over 100 mph? Is Toyota claiming the floor mats -- or in the latest version of the story, "friction" in the pedal assembly, is actually drawing the pedal down toward the floor? Really? That doesn't sound like sticking to me, it almost sounds like magic! A piece of carpet that grabs the pedal from under one's foot and draws it all the way down to the floor. Or, in the latest story, friction which actually gets slippery and does the same thing.

OR, a failure of or design/programming error with an entirely electronic accelerator system, a relatively new design compared to the old tried and tested mechanical accelerator. This "sticking" story that seems to actually involve self-movement, just doesn't make sense to me.

.

[sendero]

1. I've been following this for a while now..

... first it was "floor mats" and now it is "condensation affecting plastic".

Bullshit. They have a software error in their throttle control system. I'd bet money on it.

[madokie]

3. Sure they do

I worked with my brother all during the 80's converting the local foundries machinery from an old analog type control system, relay cabinets, to a digital one, plc's, and you won't believe the hundreds of time the electrical engineer would say to me go check and see if you have this wired right and it was always wired right, it always was in the programing but that didn't stop him from trying to shift the blame over to me and my brother. Same thing that TOYota is doing now, trying to shift the blame. I never had one holiday off work during that period cause we'd spend weeks sometimes months getting ready then when a long weekend came up we'd actually do the brain transplant. I made lots of money during that time too but after 10 plus years of that I got totally burned out.

[Subdivisions]

62. If the software is the issue, couldn't the fix be

to patch the software, rather than replacing mechanical parts? Seems if it's a programming problem, that could be found, fixed, and then uploaded to the vehicle.

Do we know yet exactly what is is Toyota is doing to make the fix?

[sendero]

102. Yes..

.... they could probably. The problem is that these sorts of errors can be very, very difficult to find. It can be that only under very very rare conditions that it occurs. It is hard to fix a problem that cannot be reproduced.

They may actually believe that is it a friction pad, but here is one of several reasons I doubt it.

If it were simply a matter of the pedal being stuck down, you could maybe get your toe behind it and pull it back out.

I have no real evidence, it just doesn't SOUND like stuck pedal to me.

[nebenaube]

2. I have a Prius and I think I have this halfway figured out...

It relates to the cruise control... Most systems suspend cruise control when the brake pedal is tapped. My Prius just accelerates to compensate for the excess drag. I don't think their control system handles this appropriately, some algorithmic zero point is crossed causing the system to lose context and malfunction in response.

[seabeyond]

4. that is what it seems like to me. the cruise control taking over. nt

[madokie]

5. That after it has lost it's mind, lol

if it wasn't so serious it would be fall down funny that they haven't figured this one out yet after all this time.

[HopeHoops]

22. Doesn't sound like cruise control. THAT system has a brake override.

They admitted that there is no brake override for the accelerator. A cruise control system has that built in. What kind of lame bastards are they to neglect putting that in the primary drive system?

[Better Today]

46. Just out of curiosity

and I've never been in a Prius or a newer Toyota, so I'm asking rather than assuming.

If it's what you think, and someone is seeing the beginning of an issue, is there some other effective way to be sure one has the cruise control disengaged than the brake pedal. On my out dated car there is a whole set of cruise controls on a steering wheel lever including a disengage button.

Your idea sounds very plausible to me, but it makes me wonder if most of the issues were taking place when drivers were using the cruise control or whether the cruise control just sort of kicked in on its own.

[yellowcanine]

56. If that happens your cruise control is not working properly. Don't use it until it is fixed.

I have a 2005 Prius. When I so much as nudge the brake the cruise control turns off.

[nebenaube]

79. Mine is a 2006

It does disengage but you can sense it accelerating first.

[Turbineguy]

6. Since it only happens rarely

there must be a confluence of certain conditions within a very narrow range. Temperature(s), o2 exhaust level, air and fuel densities, throttle position prior to excursion, engine rpm, rate of change of engine speed and power ramp-up, transmission setting control, the entire host of inputs.

[SteveM]

7. One last safety "input:" "N." It's on transmission shifter indicator. nt

[Turbineguy]

8. Yes, it does seem

that the drivers become overwhelmed and try to control the car with the steering wheel and the brake instead of shifting to neutral and shutting down the engine. We've become numb in our reliance on technology well beyond the limits of our education and understanding.

[LeftyMom]

10. A lot of those drivers probably never had to put a car in neutral.

If one learns to drive on an automatic and never drives anything else, there's really no call to put a car in neutral unless it breaks down and you need to push. People made a big deal of that one guy in LA being a CHP officer and thus a trained driver, but he was trained to drive a land yacht with an automatic and a shifter on the steering column, and in his billion miles on the road in the line of duty he probably never put it in neutral once. Now compare that to a Lexus with a really wonky gear shifter pattern, and I can see how he didn't think to put it in neutral (or couldn't figure out how in an emergency.)

Manual transmission. Actually having full control of your car. Wave of the future people, I'm telling ya.

[SteveM]

21. The demise of the "stick shift" was predicted -- just before the '73 oil crunch...

Then, wonder of wonders, manual transmission made a big come back, given their significantly higher MPG capabilities (that was also the year when Japanese cars -- esp. Toyota -- carved out its first big market shares at the expense of Detroit. What's more, in most standard shifts, you can safely push-start your car if you have a battery or starter failure.

Years ago, when I taught basic auto repair in non-credit courses, I instructed folks in how to shift into neutral (standard or automatic) if your accelerator stuck. Yes, Margaret, it happened back in the days, too. The most notorious one was a variety of 2 bbl. Rochesters on early 70s Buick/Olds cars where the choke high-speed idle cam (a series of stair-steps cut into a cam, controlled by the choke links), which would flip over inadvertently if you "stomped" the pedal to reduce the high-revving engine (when cold). The cam, thus "perverted" and upside down, then became the curb idle stop -- at over 2,500 RPMs! I was a witness in one wreck where the driver panicked and weaved through traffic before t-boning another vehicle. He didn't know to shift into "N." And neither did the attorneys involved in the case!

[tonysam]

100. They aren't even that great on gas mileage anymore.

Anybody who buys one needs his or her head examined. I want both of my hands on the steering wheel.

[Atman]

101. Most Americans don't keep both hands on the wheel -- texting eating a Whopper

I actually like manuals, and drove only manual for until my mid-thirties until I got "clutch knee." After about a billions shifts in various cars, my left knee was starting to pop. As for your post, I still rarely drive with both hands on the wheel unless the weather is bad or in particularly heavy traffic. It's either one had at 12-1 o'clock, or one or both hands at 6 o'clock.

[NutmegYankee]

107. They are about equal now fuel wise, but the control of a stick is superior.

In the snow the ability to slow down without the need for brakes is well worth it. I can feather the clutch to lightly introduce power if I'm on ice. On the highway, I can easily pass another car by dropping down a gear and bringing the engine into the higher RPMs and power at will. Around town it's easy to maintain speed limits by using the natural limitations of the gears to keep the speed where I want it.

There are lots of benefits to stick shift. No head examination required.

As for 2 hands, even in automatics few drivers keep both hands on the wheels. In a stick you only need to release the right hand when shifting, which becomes so well drilled that you don't even consciously do the shift. It just happens like breathing.

[SteveM]

121. I have no problem with them, and my head is just fine, too. nt

[dixiegrrrrl]

77. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have stick shift come back again as an option?

I refuse to drive an automatic.
Perhaps it IS a control thing for me.

[NutmegYankee]

82. That's a big reason I drive a VW.

The US and Japanese automakers either don't offer one, or make you pay a lot extra for it. Saying you can drive a car but not with stick shift is like saying you can ride a bike, but only if it has training wheels.

[dixiegrrrrl]

88. We have an automatic "in the family"

since Mr. D. is disabled, cannot use a clutch.
So I am glad they are available for him.
He cannot drive my 5 speed tho.
I am glad of that, too.:evilgrin:

[NutmegYankee]

91. And I understand the use for elderly and disabled people.

It's when 20-somethings tell me they cannot drive my car that it hits home. And there are a lot of them out there!

[tonysam]

99. I would NEVER drive a manual transmission car. They are BULLSHIT.

n/t

[NutmegYankee]

106. Why?

[TommyO]

114. Ah, such wonderful logic.

I've driven mostly manual transmissions, and I can assure you that they are not bullshit. If it weren't for a manual transmission, I wouldn't have been able to drive my car to a safe location when a pin in my brake pedal broke, using the manual, I was able to get to a parking lot and use the emergency/parking brake to stop because I was going slow enough in first gear to do just that.

[flvegan]

104. I love my 6 speed manual!

[tonysam]

98. Manual transmission--dinosaur.

Only a fool buys a car with one.

[NutmegYankee]

105. Why?

[LeftyMom]

108. A fool who prefers higher mpg, better performance, and greater control over the car, perhaps.

Your opinion, however stupid, is noted.

[NutmegYankee]

111. Who's the fool?

In the snow the ability to slow down without the need for brakes is well worth it. I can feather the clutch to lightly introduce power if I'm on ice. On the highway, I can easily pass another car by dropping down a gear and bringing the engine into the higher RPMs and power at will. Around town it's easy to maintain speed limits by using the natural limitations of the gears to keep the speed where I want it.

There are lots of benefits to stick shift.

[Gold Metal Flake]

116. What a foolish statement.

[Atman]

11. I believe in one of the most famous cases, shifting to N did nothing.

In some of these new Toyota models, that's controlled by the software, too.

I am pretty sure that was the case with the CHP incident you mentioned, too.

[donco6]

19. That's what I heard too. n/t

[Kalun D]

33. Shifting

Shifting is controlled by the software but not on all shift changes. The initial shift position is a mechanical valve at the trans, it's called the "manual valve". Once you shift into neutral it goes into neutral, the computer only affects shifting when your shifting into gear or between gears, not out of gear into neutral.

What you're repeating here sounds like the internet rumor mill, urban legend type stuff, do you have a link?

[Atman]

53. I'm not repeating anything. I'm asking questions.

I didn't hear this anywhere. What I am "repeating" are the accounts from the news report about the CHP driver incident in which he was simply not able to shut down his car. In his particular case, he had a Toyota or Lexus with a push-button start. These cars will not shut down at highway speeds by pressing the on-off button -- a reasonable safety measure. You are required to use the key fob and hold the start button down for three seconds. When you're blasting along at 100+ mph and have no control of your vehicle, can imagine trying to dig in your pocket or wherever looking for the key fob? You travel a very long distance in three seconds at 100 mph. There is also no mention of this emergency shut-down procedure in the Toyota manual (as if you'd be able to read it under such a circumstance). It is just another serious design flaw that no one really considered when creating this new system.

No "urban legend" stuff. Just the facts.

.

[Kalun D]

80. Agree

the remote keys are a design flaw, they are driven by consumer demand/request and the engineering driven manufactures. Engineers need to stay busy so they're constantly changing/improving.

It needs to be a much simpler/easier mechanical hard off

anytime you have new tech there's going to be issues at first

[NutmegYankee]

71. The failure of the "neutral" may have been the complex shift pattern.

The shift pattern required the driver to shift down and then to the side and up again to put the car in neutral if he was in the "S" side. It has been proposed that the driver thought he was in neutral but in reality was just bumping the gears manually back and forth as is in vogue lately with "sporty" automatics.

[Kalun D]

81. I can see that, makes sense.

I can see that happening. So anyone that has this system and uses the manual side needs to practice going to neutral until it's totally reflex.

With all the sport shifters I've seen it rests between up and downshift and with one motion will slide right to get back to full auto. So it's not just up, it's over and up to get to neutral.

[snooper2]

36. oh jeez...

:banghead:

[Atman]

54. Don't hurt yourself.

:eyes:

.

[RamboLiberal]

84. And just maybe some drivers don't have the time to shift to neutral

Like this instance:

On Jan. 22, 2004, an elderly Las Vegas couple died after the 2002 Camry they were driving sped off the fourth floor of a parking deck at the Golden Nugget casino. Their son later told NHTSA that witnesses saw the car stop, then accelerate off the deck.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100131/BUSINESS01/1310523/1318/Toyota-accused-of-not-being-frank-on-problem&template=fullarticle

[Atman]

9. Does your computer freeze up or crash every time you use it?

Or only when it's humid, you're typing too fast, etc?

Not being smug, I understand what you're trying to say, but it doesn't make it any more plausible that this is mechanical. Toyota has decades of experience designing and building cars. I find it hard to believe that they made such a radical redesign of their floor mats and/or foot pedal that they're suddenly so succeptible to condensation and temperature. What HAS changed significantly in the design of these new vehicles? The shift from a mechanical accelerator linkage to drive-by-wire. A computer controlled accelerator. And just as I can boast that my Mac never crashes or freezes, there are plenty of people who will tell you that their Macs do so all the time.

Computers are notoriously finicky; accelerators are not. I think this is kind of an Occum's Razor type situation -- and the simplest explanation is not magic floor mats or condensation causing problems in a basic component like a pedal.

.

[Turbineguy]

17. If I did not make it clear,

I believe the problem resides in the control system, not the floor mat or condensation. In order to control emissions the combustion control has to function to compensate for transients, such as transmission shift points and such. This is in addition to the transmission control itself.

The system has to be designed to behave in such a way that the driver does not take notice of its existence.

[sailor65]

12. The reason you're having a problem with it

is that you're still thinking in terms of a mechanical accelerator, with which this behavior would be different.

With "Drive by wire," which is actually not all that new, when you depress the accelerator you're only "Requesting" additional power from the engine. This is more often done to compensate for an additional load (Uphill) in order to maintain speed. It's also done when passing, as an override to the cruise control.

The engine computer knows what load the engine is under, and when power is first requested, takes into account whether the load has been increasing over the last few seconds. Power is adjusted accordingly, but not dramatically. After you have added power for the hill, or overridden the cruise control to pass somebody, the computer expects the power request to go away (And you are thinking it has gone away). If after another interval, your pedal is stuck in the position you moved it to initially, the computer then decides you are looking for higher baseline power and puts the coal to it, so to speak. This decision can come several seconds later, long after you have ended your maneuver and gone back to your complacency. All of a sudden the computer is accelerating you, seemingly without warning.

With a mechanical accelerator, it couldn't happen this way, but with Drive by Wire, it makes perfect sense.

The best indicator will be the vehicle owner who gets the fix done. He or she can check the ECM version sticker going into the shop and then coming out to see if a covert ECM update was done.

[Atman]

15. Thank you.

That description makes perfect sense, and does shed some light. Still, why aren't we hearing any explanation like this in any of the reports? Why wouldn't tapping the brake tell the engine that you don't want to go faster? That would seem to be a software issue.

.

[sailor65]

30. You're asking good questions

On the lack of reporting; if it turns out that I'm right, then you wouldn't hear much of that detail in a public report. The automakers tend to try to limit the technical detail in solution releases because of the can of worms it can open. The public likes a nice simple and handy answer. If the computer is getting confused because the pedal is sticking, then the logical release to the general public is "We've fixed the sticking pedal."

Kind of like the old joke, the guy goes to the doctor and says "Doc, it hurts when I do this." To which the doc replies "Then don't do that...." In this case, "Don't have a sticky pedal."

On your other question about the brakes, I can say this. Even in drive-by-wire systems, we almost never give the ability to the ECM to overrule the driver (Except in traction and stability control, which are different scenarios.). The ECM, when it decides the sticky pedal is the driver asking for more power, doesn't second-guess the driver under normal conditions. A great many drivers are in the habit of applying pressure (Albeit light) to the brakes for various reasons even when they are depressing the accelerator (Example, telling the guy behind you to stop tailgating). So except in cases of immediate safety (Such as the two I listed above), the ECM will almost always defer to will of the the driver in cases of requested/delivered power. Tapping the brake to shut off the cruise control is a different thing also. In that case, the computer backs off the cruise not because it's overriding the driver, but because the tapped brake with the cruise control active is interpreted as the will of the driver to interrupt the cruise.

[Turbineguy]

120. Perhaps changing the algorithm

to fix this would make all the cars no longer pass the air quality standards. They seem to have hit upon a fix which is to power down the engine when the brake pedal is pressed.

[AndyA]

13. New cars are so completely automatic, they almost don't need a driver.

So, people never really learn what to do in an emergency situation. They don't understand their cars, how they work, what they're supposed to be doing at any given time, etc.

On older cars, people had to learn how to start them depending on the outside temperature and the engine temperature. You couldn't just get in and turn the key to start. On cold days with a cold engine, the choke had to be set in order to start the engine. On slick roads, you had to let the car warm up enough to open the choke and kick the idle down a bit, or you might lose traction due to the high engine speed.

People had to have a higher degree of knowledge as to what to expect and what their responsibilities were to operate the car properly. Today, I'll bet lots of people don't bother to read the owner's manual except for the pages on how to operate the radio.

And that explains why when their car does something unexpected, they don't know what to do about it. It's normal to panic some, but for people to not realize they can prevent forward movement by putting the car in neutral is pretty sad. One wonders if they should be operating a vehicle at all if they don't understand the basics.

[customerserviceguy]

16. Good point

the lack of practical knowledge about how an automobile works is nearly staggering. I'm glad that my folks bought me a "Visible V8" kit when I was a kid, and Dad helped me put it together, explaining the functions of the parts along the way. He picked up his knowledge in Grampa's auto garage, and he was determined that I was going to know a thing or two about how cars work.

Today, kids don't have that kind of place to learn. I remember the sessions in the old neighborhood where a bunch of guys would all get under the hood to fix one guy's car, the younger fellows would learn from the older ones. I even learned about body repair from watching our neighbor restore a 56 Chevy in his garage. He let me watch, as long as I'd not chatter his ear off!

[MindPilot]

55. Man I loved my Visible V-8! Those little red light bulbs for spark plugs...

I had the Visible Chassis too! It used vegetable oil for brake fluid and had little abrasive discs for the clutch plate...it was very detailed.

I have no idea what ever happened to it. Maybe it got broken in a move; I was military kid.

[Atman]

18. Gotta admit, the ESC and AWD controls on my car baffle me.

I have buttons on the dash to lock the AWD and/or disable the ESC, but don't really know when or why I would want to do either. I had to use the Google to find some info but I'm still not sure. It does kind of freak me out when I feel the ESC taking over control of my car. I kind of like the "natural" feedback from a regular drive system, but everything I've read says that ESC is a lifesaver, so I deal.

.

[NashVegas]

25. It Goes Beyond Panic

A good friend works for a competing manufacturer and has told me that in at least one of these cases, the victim did everything RIGHT when he lost control, but the on-board computer system had its own way of doing things.

Think about how, in some newer cars, you can't shift from 'park' to 'reverse' if your foot isn't on the brake ...

[Kalun D]

40. All Cars

""in some newer cars, you can't shift from 'park' to 'reverse' if your foot isn't on the brake ...""

It's called "shift interlock", all cars have had it since the early 90's. It only affects shifting out of and into park, doesn't have anything to do with neutral. It's for obvious safety reasons, like a little kid shifting into gear by themselves. It is also tied into the ignition, you can't turn the key fully off and remove it without it being in park. Which means you can't take the key if you've left it in neutral where it might roll by itself when on an incline.

[ecstatic]

32. OK I'm guilty but quick question

On the interstate, say someone is going 65+mph, what would happen if that person suddenly switched from Drive to Neutral? That doesn't seem like it would be too much of a happy ending either...? :shrug:

[Gold Metal Flake]

35. Huh? What do you mean?

If you are on the highway doing 65 and shift from D to N your engine power will be disconnected from the transmission and your speed will gradually decrease. What part are you confused about as I can describe this more completely if you wish.

[ecstatic]

45. I guess I was just wondering how quickly the speed would decrease, considering

the people behind me are still going 65+mph as well. Would I have time to change multiple lanes without being rear ended?

[NutmegYankee]

48. Absolutely.

Neutral just lets the car free roll, much like if the engine had just quit due to a malfunction. You'd begin losing speed quickly, but it's not like you are going to come to a screeching halt.

[Gold Metal Flake]

57. Having lost power at speed many times, yes.

Yes. The other cars are not piloted by automatons. Folks do pay attention and if they see someone in trouble they do snap to it and will make room. If your engine suddenly lost power on the freeway, you should immediately shift to N to reduce engine drag, turn on your emergency flashers, look over your right shoulder for a space and move purposely and firmly to the right. If someone is stubborn about making room, they will think twice as you press your case. Just look for motorcycles. Do always move to the right. Nothing lives in the center divider.

Again, I have had to do this maneuver before, more than once. I have a long history of driving old hot rods and well-worn cars on major freeways in Houston and LA. Some smart folks following will snap to what is happening and help create a zone for you. I've seen it happen and have done the same myself. Drivers still do have a sense of community on the road when things go wrong. Not all, but many. :-)

[NutmegYankee]

63. Same experience.

My old VW bus quit while cruising the road quite a few times.

[AndyA]

96. If you change gears from Drive to Neutral at 65+ mph, the engine will

begin to race, but the car will slow down since the engine is no longer powering the drive wheels. At that point, the brakes should be able to stop the car without any problem.

It could cause engine damage if the engine were allowed to race like that for long, but even that's probably better than crashing into something.

[customerserviceguy]

14. There wasn't so much wrong with the old-fashioned linkage system

When we turn more mechanical functions over to robots, you can expect this when they go haywire.

[concerned1]

20. I'd stay away from drive-by-wire and keyless cars - see LA Times investigative articles:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29,0,5254584.story?track=rss
Los Angeles Times
November 29, 2009
Data point to Toyota's throttles, not floor mats
Amid widening concern over acceleration events, Toyota has cited 'floor mat entrapment.' But reports point to another potential cause: the electronic throttles that have replaced mechanical systems.
By Ken Bensinger and Ralph Vartabedian


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-carkeys24-2010jan24,0,6923741.story
January 24, 2010
Safety of cars' keyless entry and ignition systems questioned
The technology is popular but quirky and there is no universal standard. Its problems are potentially serious.
By Ralph Vartabedian and Ken Bensinger

[JPZenger]

23. Toyota lost all credibility

As soon as they realized there was a problem, they should have put their best engineers on the problem, instead of their worst PR people. Their denials and false excuses really hurt them, followed by long delays in finding the solution. Then, to top it all off, their original plan last week was to send the initial shipment of improved gas pedals to the factories for building new cars, instead of fixing the cars already on the road.

[Kalun D]

37. How do you know?

""As soon as they realized there was a problem, they should have put their best engineers on the problem,""

how do you know they didn't? A very intermittent problem can be hard to diagnose, plus it's a chain of communication issue. The engineers can't be in the field diagnosing every car that comes in, the tech is going to diagnose and even he can have difficulty if the problem doesn't duplicate when he's looking at it.

I think everyone's perception of when the problem started was because of the Lexus in Califa, and that was an incorrect model floormat installed by the dealer.

[MindPilot]

90. That Lexus crash happened here in San Diego.

The fact that a CHP officer was driving generated a lot of publicity and prompted the NHTSA investigation. I firmly believe that had it been Joe A. Sixpack piloting that Lexus it would have been just another crash and this problem would still be under the radar. After that incident there were suddenly many more reports of stuck throttles and uncontrollable acceleration because people realized theirs was not an isolated experience.

I also don't accept the idea of some (not you) that the CHP officer couldn't find neutral because he was only trained on his Crown Vic. Most of these guys are pretty car-savvy since that is all they do; they are the HIGHWAY patrol. Hell half of them joined the force just so they could legally drive fast. And it wasn't too long ago they used Mustangs with 5-speed manuals.

I can't imagine a veteran CHP officer would not have had the presence of mind to lift the pedal with his toe or try to pull the floor mat back.

[NashVegas]

24. Thank Computers For This

And the industry that convinced us everything runs smarter with comps.

[TroglodyteScholar]

110. No, thank a shitty programmer...

...and an even shittier quality control process, apparently.

Computers are never the only problem when humans are a part of the equation. A computer does what a person has told it to do.

[ddeclue]

26. paranoia...

don't you think they would much rather flash a bunch of car computer memory chips than replace a bunch of gas pedals? I'm convinced it's mechanical not software. Everybody loves to blame the software guys but just as often it is the hardware guys who screw up.

[Gold Metal Flake]

28. I'm waiting for a clear explaination of the mechanical issue.

So far, none yet. And I am perfectly qualified to evaluate any info they may care to divulge.

[MicaelS]

52. Have you seen this graphic yet?

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/toyota-pedal-recall-update-13-dealers-to-start-fixing-defective-pedals-this-week.html

What do you think of that?

[MindPilot]

72. I think that will fix the sticky pedal problem

It will not address the sudden unintended acceleration problem.

But I do like one of the comments:

dnoodles says:
09:16 AM, 02/01/2010
good call, toyota. don't replace the faulty parts with functioning parts, just jerry rig the old crappy parts.

i would hate to see an automaker's response to a part that catches fire these days. "no plans on solving the problem, but we've added an easy to reach fire extinguisher to the car. that's kind of like solving the problem."

[Kalun D]

78. Toyota is one of the best

If the patch permanently fixes the problem it's good enough. I've done several recalls on numerous models/brands that were just a patch. Do you want them to go out of business just cuz some crappy vendor supplied a crap part?

Let's not drive one of the few manufactures that still have their head above water out of business. They employ a lot of workers here in America.

and no-one else has come close to the Prius, they are 10 years ahead of everyone else in hybrid tech (except Honda).

[MindPilot]

86. What makes you think I want Toyota to go out of business?

I said I think it will fix the sticky throttle problem. I don't think it will fix the unintended acceleration problem, which I believe is the majority of the concerns.

As I said downthread I think there are two distinct separate issues, sticky pedal and unintended acceleration.

I want to see Toyota come out of this OK.

[jmowreader]

85. I don't think it's going to work

This isn't a "sticking" problem no matter WHAT Toyota is trying to say. If it was sticking the car just wouldn't slow down--it wouldn't speed up, which in some cases is what's happening.

The Toyota accelerator system is electronic. There is a pulse generator in the gas pedal. The farther you push the pedal down, the closer the pulses are together. (Technical name: pulse width modulation.) The engine computer looks at the pedal pulses plus load, barometric pressure and a bunch of other shit to decide how far to open the throttle.

Something is making the pedal pulse generator produce a continuous on condition. I don't know what. Maybe the little volume control is breaking, or some crap is getting in there--it's down where your feet are, there's a lot of dirt and crap down there. Maybe it's a software glitch. Perhaps the problem is actually up at the other end--on the motor that moves the throttle. Whatever it is, SOMETHING is telling the car "the driver wants to go like hell--make it happen" when the driver wants nothing of the sort.

[Gold Metal Flake]

87. I concur.

[Gold Metal Flake]

27. I agree that this is not likely a mechanical problem.

My wife has a 2009 Corolla. Yesterday I showed her how to turn the ignition off without locking the steering wheel. The Corolla ignition lock is stepped so that you can turn it off easily but you have to push the key in toward the center of the steering column to rotate the key all the way to locked. This makes turning off the ignition without locking the wheel easier than you would expect. I also described what would happen to the steering and brake assist if she did that. She has been driving since the mid-1970s in all kinds of cars (including her 1968 Cougar with manual disc brakes and the occasional self-destructing power steering hose), and she has been hanging out with a obsessed and dedicated gearhead since 1983 (moi) so she has driven all sorts of cars in all sorts of tune, but I figured it was a good discussion to have.

Now she does have the ultimate defense against this sort of failure: a clutch. Being able to mechanically disconnect the engine from the trans at will is the first defense if this sitch should happen. Let the engine wail. It has an engine RPM limiter from the factory (most modern engines do, but the Corolla certainly does. I hit it once passing a slowpoke on PCH).

Those without a clutch better get familiar with the neutral position of the auto shifter and how to access it in an emergency. Read the manual and practice in an empty parking lot. Practice both turning off the ignition without locking the column (one click, not two) and shifting into neutral. Push button start people need to practice emergency engine kill techniques. I am talking to everyone, not just Toyota owners.

So far our Corolla has been great, although the electronic throttle has a tiny bit of lag that I find hard to live with, especially from a standing start. I understand that there are aftermarket solutions to that, but I can deal with it. I'm not gonna hotrod the wife's car. Yet.

[FarCenter]

42. And whatever happened to pulling the accelerator up with your toe?

Like in my '68 LeMans?

[Gold Metal Flake]

59. That car had a normal mechanical connection between pedal and carb.

But that is a good question. We are missing the testimony from the victims. Did anyone do that and solve the problem? Good question.

Where are the reports of victims? I have only seen vague third-party descriptions from clueless reporters.

[FarCenter]

83. There have been incidents where the pedal is in the idle position

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-avalon-displays-unintended-acceleration-without-floor-mat.html describes a case where the driver went to the dealer with the car at full rpm and the dealer mechanic verified that the pedal was in the idle position.

Of course that doesn;t necessarily mean that the computer is getting the right info from the pedal. http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/29/video-in-depth-look-at-toyotas-sticky-accelerator/#continued has a video showing the insides of the pedal. It appears to be a Hall effect sensor pedal. While the guy in the video is implicating the bearing, I'm not sure that is the issue. I'm inclined to think that the plastic levers and slides between the pivot point and the magnet might more likely be the problem. One issue might be the magnet not returning to the idle position. Another might be in the sensor or the electronics which send the signal to the engine control computer.

[Kalun D]

29. Mechanical

""why would the car then ACCELERATE to a much faster speed?""

You don't know that, you have to assume drivers are giving it some gas and it's not returning to idle. At this point with all the publicity there's no way Toyota would be lying about what they've found. If they say it's mechanical it's mechanical, and that's not unbelievable. The part in question is sourced here in America and that right there tells you there's a better chance of it being bad than if it was from Japan. We've had quality control issues for a long time.

Like others have already said, if you don't know how to shift into neutral you need to go back and take a driver education course. And the story about "doing everything right" and still crashing is not believable.

[Gold Metal Flake]

31. "...there's no way Toyota would be lying about what they've found"

Bullshit.

[Kalun D]

34. Nope

it would be too easy to prove they were lying. and that would pile fines on top of an already massively expensive problem. Toyota is not that kind of company either. Mitsubishi might do something like that, but even they would probably be telling the truth at this point, it's just too problematic to lie this far into the problem, and there is no real motive to do so either.

[Gold Metal Flake]

44. Oh, yes. NOW they are telling the truth.

All that BS before, well that was, uh, Obama's fault or some shit.

No one knows what the problem is outside of Toyota and the info we have thuus far is way too sketchy to be of any use.

[Kalun D]

60. Multiple problems

Floor mats have always been a problem. Honda had a recall in the mid 90's.

Toyota's problem with the pedal is very intermittent, probably why it took as long as it did to get a handle on it.

And like I say the perception of how long it's been has been skewed because the first sticking pedal that caused a death was a floor mat. Then along came the sticking throttles and people morphed the two problems in their minds.

typical of the modern rumor mill/ urban legend that the internet fuels.

"Oh, yes. NOW they are telling the truth."

what proof do you have they lied before? Was it floor mats or pedals at first? Where did you get the info they were lying? From forums on the internet? An email chain letter?

"No one knows what the problem is outside of Toyota"

so what proof do you have they are lying?

[Gold Metal Flake]

69. I have no "proof" they were ever telling the truth.

This story is far from being over.

[Corgigal]

38. maybe you can answer a question I have

I have a Mazda CX-9 who also have drive by wire. However my car has something different. We have the front-wheel-drive CX-9 yet comes with a full allotment of standard features, including a six-speed automatic transmission with manual shift mode. My husband really like the idea that we can shift it to manual when driving up the mountains. So here is the question, if my car starts accelerating do you think I could shift it into manual mode and say put it in first gear? Or do I go with the two feet braking , shift to manual and turn off the key.

As you can see, I'm another person who never really thought of this situation happening but now might be a good time to plan in case it does.

Any suggestions would be great.

[Gold Metal Flake]

41. Do not expect to downshift to limit speed with a throttle problem.

Most automatics will not shift into first at high speeds to prevent engine over-revving. No matter what range you have the trans in (full auto or manual/sport mode) you need to know how to shift into neutral. Consult the manual and practice in an empty parking lot. Do this soon. Also practice turning off the ignition without locking the steering column.

[Kalun D]

49. Shift into neutral

Shift into neutral that's all you have to do. Practice in a parking lot. You can even give it a little gas and shift into neutral.

Another thing you can do is while in park or neutral, brake on not rolling, give it full throttle to see what happens. Most(or all?) cars with drive by wire are rev-limited to 4,000 rpm when in neutral/park. You can't hurt the motor but you can see what happens when the car is full throttle and in neutral, so that you don't freak out when it happens. It's called bouncing off the rev-limiter, it will go up to 4K then let off, up and back. When it's in gear it's rev-limited at the tach red-line. If you're worried your car doesn't have the 4K rev-limit just slowly approach 4K and see what happens when you get there instead of just floor-boarding it. Even if it rev-limits at red-line it sounds scary but it can't hurt the engine.

That's part of what's causing these crashes, the engine sounds like it's about to explode and adds to the panic.

You don't want to turn the key off until you've pulled over to the side of the road, because when the engine is turned off you lose your power steering and power brakes.

The rev limiter is like ABS, where you need to practice putting your car into full brake lock so you know what it feels like when the anti-lock is activated. Accidents have happened because drivers have never felt the antilock brake pedal kickback and they let off the brake.

[Gold Metal Flake]

58. Some good points in this post.

Props when due. :hi:

[Corgigal]

64. thank you both

Seems I'm going to take a little time out and experiment on the car. Always a good thing to know , hopefully one never has to use this knowledge. Thanks again.

[Kalun D]

74. Another thing

Another thing you can do if you really want to get into driver education. Is to turn the engine off while rolling and feel what it's like to steer and brake without power assist. Of course start in a parking lot at low speeds. And first practice turning the key off but not to lock. Most(all?) modern keys require 2 movements to get to lock so you have to practice just turning to off.

This is applicable for the scenario of driving down the road and having the engine die on you. You can steer and brake without power assist it just takes more effort.

you don't lose your power brakes right away, it takes 2 to 4 pumps of the pedal before it goes. Test this by pressing the brake repeatedly right after the engine is shut off (while stopped in park), push the pedal repeatedly you will feel it get stiff after a few times, this is when braking effort will go up.

power steering is lost immediately after engine off

[NutmegYankee]

66. I used ABS out for the first time yesterday.

This fool jumped out from a parking lot into the road that rings around the shopping mall without looking and I just stomped on the brake. I stopped with about 5 feet to spare and could feel the rapid throbbing of the pedal. That was worth every penny.

Funny enough, I am so conditioned after years of driving a stick that I automatically stomped the clutch in as well, so I never stalled the engine. I guess it doesn't matter anyhow, as the brake pedal in stick shifts are narrow and can only support one foot.


On edit: Test is the wrong word - I used it.

[Gold Metal Flake]

70. Feels funny.

A wet day on a deserted side street is a great place to feel out ABS.

[Romulox]

39. Dude. They blamed the drivers in the first instance. Then were FORCED to admit engineering flaws.

Haven't your ead any of the news? :hi:

[Gold Metal Flake]

43. Yup. Driver error was to blame in the Audi 5000, but I'm not sure what this shit is about.

No one is sure yet. Only those in Toyota know, maybe. There is no reason for anyone to declare a definite cause, and no reason to expect Toyota to now be an honest corporate citizen all of the sudden.

It is still wait and see people.

[Kalun D]

68. Cost Risk Analysis

It's always by cost/risk analysis, companies have to follow that rule to stay in business.

By a percentage basis the deaths are minuscule and how many of them could have been alleviated by merely shifting into neutral? So part of the blame lies with the notoriously poor level of driver education in the states. But oh no, lets not make the ignorant drivers take any of the responsibility.

Not saying Toyota is not at fault, not saying they handled the problem optimally.

Just saying the problem is exaggerated by the internet rumor mill.

When I first saw "drive by wire" I told myself there's going to be issues, it happens when any new tech comes along. But it will get ironed out and you can't hold back progress or we'd all still be living in caves.

[Romulox]

93. Right. But your analysis of same is obviously different from Toyotas, as they were FORCED to recall

these cars. :hi:

"By a percentage basis the deaths are minuscule and how many of them could have been alleviated by merely shifting into neutral?"

That is an inane argument. The number of deaths from a shoddy grasp of basic engineering that are "tolerable" is zero.

[Kalun D]

95. Obviously

they came to the determination that their faulty engineering was causing deaths. So risk is overriding cost.

I'm just saying the lack of comprehensive driver education is a contributing factor. If the situation is controllable then at what point does the driver share some responsibility? You can blame the manufacture all you want when things go wrong with all the bells, whistles and advanced tech that the consumer clamors for. But if you demand advanced tech you better know how to operate it or you will pay the price.

"The number of deaths from a shoddy grasp of basic engineering that are "tolerable" is zero."

Generally you can't describe a wireless throttle as "basic engineering". Looking at the diagram linked in post 52 it doesn't look like a basic throttle pedal to me, and that's just the mechanical part.

[Romulox]

97. That's the thing. Toyota isn't making that analysis in a vacuum

Jurors in at least 19 wrongful death suits, for example, will be invited to weigh the reasonableness of Toyota's behavior in assessing the risk versus the rewards involved here. Of course, Toyota will not allow these cases to go to trial, but even so, the "invisible hand" of these putative jurors is what will force Toyota to settle in the first place.

[JPZenger]

47. Read Kalun's post : It must be from lazy American workers who screwed up

Why won't everyone listen? It couldn't possibly be Toyota's fault. They are always faultless, and would never engage in a coverup. Kalun has made it very clear in his post above that the problem must be from lazy incompetent American factory workers. The problem never would have occurred if those parts were made in Japan, as Kalun makes clear.

Stop talking about this. There is nothing to see here. Go back to your lives citizens, and keep buying Toyotas.

Here's a very interesting recent LA Times investigative report on the issue:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29%2C0%2C1231630%2Cfull.story

[NutmegYankee]

51. I caught that same attitude from that post.

And it disgusts me.

[Kalun D]

65. Not saying it's not Toyota's fault

Not saying they've handled the problem optimally. Just saying the problem has been exaggerated by the internet rumor mill.

And it's a known fact that American stuff has more problems than Japanese. I've been with Honda since '91 and all their big problems started when they started producing in the states. I tell people when you're buying a Honda, look for a "J" as the first initial of the VIN, produced in Japan. Sure there's isolated cases where American stuff is better but generally and overall Japanese stuff is better. There's a host of reasons for that, it's not really the American workers fault directly, but it's is a fact.

[Kalun D]

94. Addition

Please buy American if you want to support America, just don't be surprised if there's generally a few more problems. The American manufactures have narrowed the gap considerably in recent years and the difference in reliability is a pretty small percentage.

[gulfcoastliberal]

103. So you're claiming all the faulty transmissions in Acura/Honda from 2001-2005 were made in the USA?

Those shitty automatic transmissions that prematurely failed in several model lines (Accord/TL/Pilot/MDX/Civic) were not made in the USA. Sorry.

[Kalun D]

76. End of Discussion

From the article in post number 52

""It also said that Camry, RAV4, Corolla, and Highlander vehicles with Vehicle Identification Numbers (VIN) that begin with "J" are not affected by the accelerator pedal recall.""

vin numbers starting with J are built in Japan

I also remember reading that the throttle pedal in question is from an American vendor. So manufactured and assembled in the good ole USA.

[MindPilot]

50. this is starting to sound like the list of excuses for invading Iraq.

I am also of the opinion that this is ECM-related. After many years fixing cars I've lost track of the number of times I've had to rip engines and transmissions apart and put them back together just to prove that the problem was in fact electronic.

[eomer]

61. Your assumption may not match with the actual scenario.

You assume "you were driving along at 50 mph and your gas pedal got stuck". Sure, under that assumption why would the car accelerate?

What, on the other hand, if you had the gas pedal to the floor because you were accelerating in the on-ramp of an expressway? The gas pedal gets stuck. Now you are not able to back off the gas pedal like you would when you're ready to stop accelerating. Instead of accelerating to 60 or 70, the car keeps accelerating to 100, 110, ...

[MindPilot]

67. There are two distinct scenarios; stuck throttle & unintended sudden acceleration

Stuck throttle: "you were driving along at 50 mph and your gas pedal got stuck"; you take you foot off the gas and you continue to go 50.

Unintended sudden acceleration: You are cruising along at 50mph and without any pedal movement, the engine goes to wide open throttle and the vehicle accelerates uncontrollably. Or as you pull away from an intersection the rate of acceleration is way in excess of your throttle application.

Most of the stories I've read about the Toyota problem involve the latter.

[eomer]

73. Yes, I see there are various scenarios being talked about, parties do not agree.

Thanks for the info.

[Bombero1956]

75. what's to say they aren't going to reprogram the throttle control

when folks bring their cars in for repairs. It's not like you'll be looking over their shoulders when they fix the car.

[MindPilot]

89. For one, it's illegal. Two, no technician is going to work for free.

You can't do work on a vehicle--even for free--that the customer did not authorize. Dealer technicians are paid on commission basis called "flat rate". Each and every repair or procedure has to be authorized and documented or the technician will not be paid for the time he spent working on the vehicle.

Please see my post about replacing/reprogramming ECMs; http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7617935&mesg_id=7617935

[JPZenger]

115. I think dealers do electronic upgrades without pre-approval

I would imagine dealers do electronic upgrades to fix problems identified by the manufacturer without specific permission of the car owner. Those costs would be paid for by the manufacturer.

[MindPilot]

117. Most of the time it works like this:

You bring your car to the dealer for some service. When the repair order is generated the VIN is checked for pending recalls. If there are any, the service advisor will say something like, "your car is due for recall XYZ; would you like us to take care of that while you're here?"
"Sure."
"Okay, hang on a sec, I have to make a warranty repair order for the recall. Sign here and here. This is authorizing $260 for the 10,000 mile service, and this is for the recall; no charge."

The point is there has to be a document signed by the customer for every procedure. Dealers don't do secret repairs; it's bad business and--at least in California--against the law.

[Hannah Bell]

92. i think it's not the floor mats either. i had a similar problem with my car (detroit, not toyota)

where it would suddenly accelerate or decelerate.

it was a faulty temp gauge - which affected the fuel/throttle.

very scary, especially since i had to go through multiple mechanics just to diagnose the problem.

[sendero]

109. There is one other problem with this whole thing.

.... several Lexus models have had the same problem but they don't seem to be recalled. Since Lexii are about 90% Toyota anyway, I have a hard time understanding this.

[Atman]

112. Story about this last night still blaming Lexus problem on floor mat

Specifically mentioned the CHP incident on CNN and said "but that one was a problem with the floor mat." Clearly there is a cover-up going on. The Lexus in question is just a fancy Avalon.

.

[sendero]

113. In the history.

.... of automaking I've never heard of a floormat killing people but now it's accepted fact.

Bullshit. I've had floormats interfere with the accelerator before, I dug in my heel and pulled it back.

Toyota is playing a dangerous game here. If there is one of these incidents after the "shim" is installed their entire credibility is shot.

[MicaelS]

118. Do you know if....

The CHP officer who died with his family in the Lexus tried to shift the car into neutral? What was the result?

[Atman]

119. Supposedly the Lexus was one that could not be turned off without the key fob

Toyota has since redesigned the start button (gosh, I wonder why they felt they had to do that?) so that you could shut down the engine by depressing the start button for three seconds. But on the model he was driving, you could not turn off the car while in motion without the key fob, which you had to depress for three seconds...if you could find it in time before plowing into something. And if you KNEW that was the emergency shut-down procedure. The manual only mentions it in one paragraph (I misstated in another post that the procedure was not mentioned at all. It is, but one sentence).

Also, he apparently tried shifting into everything...neutral, reverse, lo, anything that might slow him down. I'm not sure how investigators knew this, since everyone died, but that is what I heard on a report on the radio.

.