So if HCR doesn't pass, I guess that's it for another 50 years /nt

[still_one]

[MercutioATC]

1. Right...because the majority party has no control over introducing legislation.

:eyes:

[still_one]

3. The majority party is too divided /nt

[Posteritatis]

33. That's how it's looked for the last few months, actually. (nt)

[MercutioATC]

43. Considering our Congressional leadership shares a single vertebra, is that a surprise?

Pelosi is the prom queen candidate whoring for popularity.

Reid is the sad old man who just wants somebody to like him.


Is it any wonder that we can't get anything done?

[grytpype]

2. Yep. But only the liberal screamers can stop HCR now.

The House has to pass the Senate bill and fix it with a reconciliation bill.

If the screamers let us that is.

Otherwise, no reform until we're already dead.

[still_one]

I am pretty skeptical because of the division within the Democrats /nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. Who are these "liberal screamers" of whom you speak?

I wonder if maybe you forgot which board you're posting on there for a second.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. I never cease to be amazed at the glee with which some posters bash everything liberal/left.

:eyes:

[leftstreet]

4. I thought the talking point was '20 yrs,' now it's 50?

Hmm

[still_one]

I was going back to Truman /nt

[jaxx]

5. It'll pass.

Whatever it takes, that DeMint prediction will not come true.

[TCJ70]

7. HCR? What HCR?

Oh you mean the Insurance Company Handout Bill of 2010.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. +1

:thumbsup:

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. Yeah it's really the HIR (where reform is spelled GIVEAWAY)

Health Insurance Reform. Doesn't seem to me that the bill really addresses health CARE. merely "Insurance". (that's in quotes because it's not really insurance at all)

[grytpype]

13. Nice screaming.

Thanks for helping destroy the Democratic Party.

[Cronus Protagonist]

14. I never raised my voice.

As for your claim about me helping to destroy the Democratic party, you are projecting.

[Raineyb]

37. You're out of line.

The Democratic party as per usual destroys itself by being Republican lite. That's not the fault of people who object to the corporate dominated politicians.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. Nice tantrum.

Thanks for helping destroy civility in the Internet.

[Javaman]

50. LOL

:rofl:

[leftstreet]

12. You've got that wrong

The proper term is The Insurance & Pharmaceutical Profit Protection Act of 2010

:hi:

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. WERD!

(watch out, some right winger is about to accuse you of destroying the Democratic party)

[Raine]

30. That's the truth

I refuse to call it HEALTH care, it has nothing to do with the HEALTH of anyone except insurance and pharma. :argh:

[stray cat]

8. Should result in a lot of happy DUers who are against the bill

[LostInAnomie]

11. A lot of dimwits will be ecstatic about that.

[Cronus Protagonist]

16. I'm shocked at all the dimwits who are happy about the emergence of fascism in the US

Like the people who support this merging of business and government... people who could use a history and a political science lesson.

[LostInAnomie]

17. I'm sure all the people that die because of lack of insurance will be comforted...

... by the fact that "fascism" was stopped through the teamwork of Republicans and Democrats willing to let them die on principle.

[Cronus Protagonist]

19. People die for a lack of CARE, not INSURANCE

Insurance is completely unnecessary when health care is provided by the government, as it is in every other western country.

On top of that, how fucked up is it that people die because they can't afford to send cash to rich insurance companies, and you're applauding a financial giveaway to them as progress? lol I'm so glad you're not involved in my health care scenario.

[LostInAnomie]

21. Your catch-phrase is meaningless...

... unless you think that the PO or Single Payer could somehow magically pass the Senate. At least with this bill they will be able to receive treatment.

You would rather see them die than accept reality. Talk about "fucked up".

[Marr]

24. "Magically pass the Senate", my ass.

There's no magic about it. These politicians are not inanimate objects with their "ayes" and "nays" programmed into them. Obama could have put enormous pressure on the Senate to pass just about anything he liked. He did not, because he did not *want* a public option, let alone single payer.

I can't believe people actually let these politicians off the hook so easily. "The votes weren't there" because he did not fight to get them, because he did not want them.

[LostInAnomie]

25. Really? What kind of pressure could Obama have put on Lieberman?

What kind of pressure could he have put on Nelson? Lieberman is owned by Aetna and probably doesn't plan on getting re-elected. Nelson doesn't require the votes of liberals to get elected at all. If their votes weren't programmed into them, they might as well have been branded. You would have needed both of their votes to get past the 40 Republican senator filibuster. You can blame Obama all you want, but those two and several others never would have sided with anything resembling the PO.

Sometimes people need to accept reality. Any fantasy scenarios people have about Obama ramming through the PO is wish thinking.

[Marr]

26. People certainly do need to accept reality.

I never said he could get 100 votes. I said he could've applied immense pressure, and chose not to. That is the power of the presidency-- the bully pulpit-- and Obama made a point of not using it. He wanted to 'let the Congress come up with the plan'.

[LostInAnomie]

27. So how would the bully pulpit have gotten Lieberman and Nelson's to vote for the PO?

Without their votes nothing happens. That is reality.

[Marr]

29. I guess we'll never know what fighting might've accomplished, will we?

Because he didn't try it. Why do you suppose that is?

[LostInAnomie]

31. Probably because it would have been an exercise in futility.

[Marr]

32. Oh, my-- that's an inspiring position.

"The Democratic Party: Negotiating for what's reasonably attainable, given the power of insurance companies and what not".

Good luck with that. I don't think it'll fly, and I think Coakley's pathetic showing is an early sign.

[LostInAnomie]

35. Grown ups shouldn't have to be inspired to accept reality.

They also don't get crest-fallen when their wishes and reality aren't the same thing.

Coakley's loss had little to do with HCR. Mass. wouldn't have been effected by the bill.

[Marr]

38. I guess we'll see whether Coakley's performance was a canary in a

coalmine or not next year. You and I disagree.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. Just for instance, he could have announced his refusal to sign a bill that didn't have a

strong public option open to everyone who wanted it.

[LostInAnomie]

36. Do you think that would have bothered Lieberman or Nelson?

They are perfectly fine with the system we have now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. And what they got with their stubbornness

was compulsory private insurance with only the loosest controls on the insurance companies, a bill that was so "hated" by the ins. co's that their stock soared.

Basically, what we have now, only with coercion.

I'm mystified at the magical results that some of you expect from this bill.

Most of the good stuff (end of antitrust exemption, government ability to negotiate drug prices, expansion of Medicare, public option) has been taken out (except for Sanders' health clinics), and what little remains doesn't go into effect for four years.

If you or anyone else is looking for immediate relief, you're going to be waiting a long time, even if this bill passes.

I did some research. I'm in a lousy situation health care-wise, but this bill would actually make my situation WORSE because

1) The companies would be allowed (which they will interpret as encouragement) to price-gouge people over 50 (like me)

2) It is hard to afford insurance now, but I am on the borderline between subsidized and non-subsidized, and being self-employed, I cross back and forth.

3) I would not be allowed to drop my insurance if it became too expensive.

4) The bill preserves the greatest evil that insurance companies have ever perpetrated on the public--high deductibles. This is very real to me now, because I just injured my arm in a fall on the ice yesterday, and I had to think long and hard about whether to go to the doctor. Turns out I have a minor fracture, but I'm going to have to pay for doctor's appointments and possible physical therapy out of pocket at a time when business is slow. That's on top of my monthly premium.

NO OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY that I know of has deductibles. If I lived in Japan, I would pay about the same monthly premium as I do now, but I would have no deductible, only a small copay, and the government would cover catastrophic care completely. (Japan is not single-payer, by the way. It has parallel public and private systems, but they're similar.)

All you people who are jumping up and down and screaming that we have to have this bill NOW and that "it will be improved later" have drunk the DLC KoolAid.

Improve the bill later? Just like NAFTA, the bankruptcy bill, the Patriot Act, FISA, the Telecommunications Act, and every other shitty piece of legislation that the majority of Democrats have voted for (whether they originated them or not)?

I'm seriously trying to think of a bad bill that was "improved later" in the past twenty years.

[TicketyBoo]

42. Totally unrealistic.

What was he going to do? Go up to the Hill and twist their arms?

Ridiculous.

[NorthCarolina]

18. Not if we dump the DLC and start replacing them with Liberals/Progressives, otherwise known as

Traditional Democrats.

[BlueDemKev]

40. Do you actually think....

...that a progressive, liberal Democrat could get elected in a rural district, like the one Heath Shuler represents (in Western North Carolina)?? The Blue Dogs are the best you can get in areas like those, and unfortunately, the Democrats cannot have a majority without having some reps from rural areas.

[NorthCarolina]

44. Yes, I do think so. Yours is a worn out DLC canard that needs to be retired. eom

[BlueDemKev]

45. Oh sure....

....a pro-choice, pro-gay rights, anti-gun liberal is going to get elected by a bunch of hillbillies! What have you been smoking?

[NorthCarolina]

46. Ummm... I have relatives in Western NC, and they're far from "hillbillies"

maybe you should visit the region some time to see how wrong you are.

[treestar]

52. Let me ask you this

Why didn't you do that in the last election?

Why didn't you get, say Nebraska, to vote in a liberal Dem rather than Nelson?

I keep hearing the Progressives claim that they worked so hard and donated so much.

[timeforpeace]

20. How did Romney manage to get his passed?

[Marr]

22. Oh, I expect these corporate whore Democrats will find the will to

play tougher and get their insurance industry handout bill passed. Don't worry.

[JVS]

23. Is there some kind of rule that you can only try once every 5 decades?

[krabigirl]

28. REAL HCR will never pass in a selfish, piggish society like ours.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. After the system collapses under its own weight (which is why the

insurance companies are insisting on compulsory coverage), people will be begging for real health care reform, especially if it's universal (which means that even the meanest right-wing Republican is eligible).

Health care reform was controversial in Canada, too, when it was first introduced. I remember traveling up there in the 1960s when Ontario was debating it. They had their hysterical protesters, maybe not as crazy as ours, but hysterical nevertheless.

Once the opponents have a medical emergency and realize that 1) They don't have to worry about paying for it, 2) They don't have to do mountains of paperwork, and 3) They will be able to get the follow-up care they need, they'll start talking about health care reform as if it was their own idea.

[cap]

49. Suit yourself... as for me, this setback is only an incentive to work harder for real HCR

it is a commitment to my family that I am making here and now.

[treestar]

51. I guess so

the country still has an awful lot of republicans. And the independents are more worried about the deficit right now. Getting health care would apparently, in their minds, increase the deficit.