I have never stopped a single abortion. My friend June has 17 times.

[mdmc]

I first met June in 2000. She had recently moved up from Harlem to Newburgh, and informed me that she had been a life long member of the Right to Life party. When she moved up here she changed her affiliation to the Democratic Party.
In 2001 I ran with her for council. We lost. But I learned a lot.
Over June's life, she had cared for over 17 children, plus many of their parents. June belonged to a little church in Harlem, and would counsel women who were considering abortions.
June had a simple protocol -
If the women wanted an abortion, June would support her decision and help her deal with the after effects.
If the women was considering having the child, June would help the women decide what she would need in order to keep the baby. The women would cite deficits, and June would work to alleviate these deficits.
June never adopted a child. She would care for them, but their mothers always maintained full custody. The mothers were always free to return and take responsibility for their children at anytime.
So if a women needed more money, June would hook it up. Need a place to live, June would pay for an apartment. Addicted to drugs - June would take care of the kids while mom binged or detoxed.
June would provide whatever the mother needed in order to avoid forcing the mother to have an abortion.
When I met June she had 4 kids living with her, plus a 21 year old mom that was trying to get custody of her kids from foster care.
She was a true right to life patriot.

Two years ago my friend's daughter got pregnant by her drug dealer. She didn't want to have the child as she was a crack addict and just had no interest in being a mom. My girlfriend and I offered to help her pay for rehab (so that she could be sober during her pregnancy) and to raise her child until she felt able to do so. We stressed that we were only looking to help, we were not looking to adopt her baby or anything like that.
Last year another friend's daughter got pregnant after a one night stand. She didn't want to have the kid because she didn't want to be a single mom and she wanted to go to college. My girlfriend and I once again made an offer to take full responsibility for raising the child until the mother felt comfortable to do so. The mom would have been the legal guardian and the mom would have had full control over her child. We would just be there for support.
All we did was offer support and love.

Neither of these ladies took me and my girlfriend up on these offers. They both elected to have abortions. We were still there for them if they needed anything.

So while I support choice, I think we need to promote a culture of life. Life does not end at birth. The worst sin against the culture of life is acceptance of poverty. Poverty has no place in a culture of life.

When I meet pro-lifers (read = supporting overturning roe v. wade) I often ask them how many abortions they were able to keep from happening - how many babies have they saved. Most times, they have never even tried.

[PDJane]

1. That's Agnes' point........

that life does not become negligible at birth. If you say that you support life, and want no abortions to be legal, what are you doing to ensure that the babies of crack addicted mothers, or mothers too poor to care for the children they have, or mothers who don't want the child, period, have a life with the decent things that should be for all children; food, shelter, medical care, education, including post-secondary education, a job that uses their talents and brains?

If you want to put your money where your mouth is, fine. If you don't, then quit pointing fingers and making choices for other people.

Bravo to you.....and to your friend. That is the reasonable side of pro-life.

[mdmc]

5. My rtl argument is basically compassionate action is effective

overturning roe v. wade is ineffective (as both Ray-gun, Bush, and Dumbya all cared very little about really overturning roe v. wade) and actually hurts a culture of life (which should prioritize the reduction or war, illness, ignorance, and poverty).

I support Roe v. Wade.

[PDJane]

25. yes, I got it............

That was Agnes' point too. She claims, and I have to believe her, that all criminalizing abortion does is either kill women and children, or make them live lives of desperation. She's old enough to have seen what criminalization does, as am I.

Interestingly enough, Canada is probably the only country with no federal laws concerning abortion or abortion access. Since that has become the case, our abortion rate has diminished, not increased.

I realize it's counter-intuitive for the religious types, but it happens to be true.

[mdmc]

28. thats the other point I always try to make regarding overturning roe v. wade

I always remind rtl'ers that overturning roe v wade will not stop abortion, it will just make it against the law. Abortions will continue and there should be a plan of action to deal with that..

[texastoast]

2. It would be great if every anti-choicer would do this

But they won't. And there aren't enough Junes or MDMCs to go around.

The key in large part as you say: poverty. Others are education, personal responsibility, and access to birth control.

[mdmc]

7. But I bring this right to them all the time

Every right to lifer I meet.

How many abortions were you able to stop?
How much have you been able to reduce illness, poverty, conflict, and ignorance for those people that are currently living under these conditions which are a direct affront to a culture of life?

Poverty is a direct enemy of a culture of life.

Right to Lifers really have a hard time with this thinking.

[rcrush]

3. $10 that this erupts into a flame war

:popcorn:

[Bobbieo]

6. That would make you a very happy man, right?

[mdmc]

8. that will not happen my friend

not today ..
peace and low stress..

[Cirque du So-What]

20. For gawd's sake, don't choke on your popcorn

that would be horrible.

[donheld]

35. Time to pay up?

[CTyankee]

4. Well, June sounds like a modern day saint, helping all those poor women.

I don't disparage her. However, I can say that across this country Planned Parenthood has prevented more abortions than any other single organization inthe U.S. Their service to low income women seeking reproductive health care and contraception has been extraordinary. It is estimated that one in four women in this country has been to a PP facility at least once in their lives.

So when people start in on Planned Parenthood I tell them that just to see the look on their faces...stunned.

[mdmc]

10. I must admit, as much as I've thought about this issue

I have never thought about what you bring up in your reply.

I almost worked for PP, but my priest (who is a mad good guy) was a bit uncomfortable with the gig. I stuck with my same job I have now.

I would like to know more about PP. If you have links or info I would dig havin it. I can also ask my local PP director.

Peace and low stress..

[CTyankee]

12. You can go to their national website which I think is PPFA.org or your local

PP. PPFA has a listing for each state I believe.

People are often amazed when they learn that abortion is only 5% of the work of PP nationally. Low income women in particular are served and get lots of basic health care and screenings as part of their reproductive health care visit.

I raised money for PP of CT, now PP of southern new england. I honor the women who worked tirelessly in the health centers for not a lot of money and suffer a lot of abuse from the so called prolifers....

[mdmc]

13. I didn't know any of this

I will get in touch with PP of the Greater Hudson Valley. I know they have a web site and I know a full time employee that works there.

Thanks so much for the info as I really was far off on my PP opinions.

Peace out..

[CTyankee]

26. And peace to you as well!

Several years back there was a study done by a researcher at a university out in California done on states that were prochoice and those that were antichoice in terms of their laws on helping children, pregnant women who were victims of domestic abuse, and child care. Her study, which was a comprehensive look at every state's laws, showed that the more a state was prochoice, the more it was prochild and profamily.

I wish I could remember this professor's study or her published work, but it escapes my memory at this point. It was very revealing since it was of ACTUAL laws on the books of these states...and pretty damning at the same time.

So don't you wonder about the so called prolife movement...I mean, how can you even trust them to be honest with you any more?

[mdmc]

37. Most of the rtl'ers I know belong to local Churches

Sometimes they are very vocal about their hatred and lack of support for the culture of life.
Not at all very Christlike.
Once this is pointed out, they are either embarrassed or they dig in and justify their hatred.

Thanks for the discussion.

[bobbolink]

9. "All we did was offer support and love."

That a concept.

Thank you.

:hug:

[mdmc]

11. You know the lyric my friend

Love is all you need!

Peace and low stress Bonnolink. Glad to see ya posting more again..

[Ilsa]

14. Saints, both of you. You didn't judge them. You understood it was their choice.

Great words: "Poverty has no place in a culture of life." That would be a great bumpersticker, along with,
War has no place in a culture of life
Hunger has no place in a culture of life

[mdmc]

17. ignorance has no place in a culture of life

Thank you for the reply.

I am a practicing Catholic so I love taking the rtl'ers on. Head on. I think it is almost as nice as when I get into my "How much would Jesus hate gay people" debates (as Jesus is Divine in my wisdom tradition, and loves all).

[rug]

15. Excellent OP.

And, 38 minutes in, excellent thread so far.

[mdmc]

18. I was gonna stick it in our RC forum

but it felt that it might get a fair shake out here. I am glad it did.

Peace, my friend. And belated Happy New Year.

[Karia]

16. WOW! What a great woman!

She's pro-choice and will offer long-term support whatever choice a woman makes. Brava!

And yes, most of the anti-choicers I know are also anti-welfare, anti-health reform, anti-public education, anti-affirmative action, and racist. That is why I think the "pro-life" movement is really just anti-woman. They do not really seem to care about the lives of people who have already been born.

[mdmc]

19. June also has cancer

Her and her husband are just out of control. All Christ, all the time. And the good Christ stuff..

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Not to mention almost always pro-war

I like to ask them how many pregnant Iraqi and Afghan women have been killed in rocket attacks on villages in those countries.

[Hekate]

21. My hat is off to the both of you; we need a social safety net worth the name...

... in order to have a "culture of life" worth the name.

I've always believed that if the "right to lifers" were either sincere or logical they would be promoting what many of them ignorantly vilify as a socialist welfare system.

Sincerity, to my way of thinking, would involve the right-to-lifers being willing to have a social safety net worth the name: supportive of mothers and their children in terms of nutrition, housing, schools, and medical care -- so that no woman would decide to have an abortion solely because she despaired of being able to care for her child.

Logic, to my way of thinking, would lead them to support comprehensive age-appropriate sex education in public schools, starting pre-puberty, and emphasizing the value of contraception. "Abstinence-only" would land on the dust heap of history. Planned Parenthood has a very good outreach program for teens -- wherever they are allowed in -- and they teach ways to say No under pressure, until you are ready. Exponentially fewer unplanned pregnancies -- many fewer abortions.

Instead, what is displayed so often by their words and behavior is a hatred of women so deep it is breathtaking, and a desire to punish what they see as female sexual transgressions.

Your friend June has my undying gratitude for being who she is, as do you and your girlfriend for making yourselves available. Thank you for sharing this story.

Hekate

edited to clear up the subject line

[undeterred]

22. Awesome.

[Political_Junkie]

24. Beautiful post.

"Poverty has no place in a culture of life." - Amen to that!

[ZombieHorde]

27. I don't know your sex life, but people who use contraceptives may prevent

more abortions than they realize.

[KakistocracyHater]

29. No birth control=poverty

why such a resistance to using birth control? & "pro-life" supports the death penalty. Go give money to orphans & pay ALL the expenses for those born with devatating birth defects due to drugs or chemo while pregnant, or daddy's drug-laced sperm.

Overpopulation causes disease & starvation, we are the only species with enough of a mind to control # of births; this is far kinder than dying from lack of water or food or plague. How do you plan to offset the cost of so many babies?

[varelse]

30. Your friend June is a national treasure

you're not too shabby yourself. I'm bookmarking this thread, and sharing it - thank you for sharing your story.

[FedUpWithIt All]

31. How heartwarming. Choice in a culture of life. Thank you and thanks to your friend June.

:hug:

[ismnotwasm]

32. There won't be a culture of life without choice

I'm going to be a grandmother again. I'm very happy, my daughter is in a position in her life to make this a wonderful experience. My first grandson, she was in a less optimum position, but 'choose' not to have an abortion. I remember telling her that I would support her no matter what her decision was, with full respect for that decision. It wasn't about me.

Support and love. And options.

Forcing pregnancies on women is neither support or love. Neither is any kind of emotional manipulation of the state of being pregnant.

I know women who developed gestational diabetes they didn't recover from ended up blind on dialysis with amputated limbs.

I know women who've died after cesareans, due to complicating of infections.

I know of women who've died during pregnancy because of DIC

I know of women who dare not try to have another child, because the pregnancy would be life-threatening.

I know of women who've had complications because of eclampsia during pregnancy, and have been prone to life long seizures.

I know of women who've ripped so badly, it took months and months to heal

I've held addicted babies, and I'd like to shout out right here and now to those who volunteer to manage the withdrawals those infants experience. An actively withdrawing baby is one of those poignant horrors that you can't describe-- THAT is support and love-- and not a whole lot of fundies were in that volunteer pool that I've ever noticed.

As long as women are not equal in economic options, as long as we're the sex class, as long as birth control and reproductive health isn't considered a human right and a major priority, as long as tax-support for day cares and schools is considered a luxury rather than a necessity, (and are first on the choppin block for budget cuts) we aren't gong to have a culture of life either.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

33. We need more people like June in this world

It would be an infinitely better place if that were the case

Thanks for sharing this story. I agree with you word for word. It is inspiring

[AwakeAtLast]

34. Absolutely

That is one woman who has her heart in the right place. Just when you think you can say you've done enough....you're shown that there's more that can be done.

[ehrnst]

36. Planned Parenthood has prevented more abortions than any PL org.

Because there are women for whom childbirth, not just parenting is not an option.

I would still support Roe, even if there were no children in foster, and there was a waiting list for unwanted children.

Because forced childbearing is a perversion of what should be a loving, consentual act on the part of the mother.