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Ted Olsen's opening statement via Sullivan. Knocks it out of the freaking park.

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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:54 PM
Original message
Ted Olsen's opening statement via Sullivan. Knocks it out of the freaking park.
This case is about marriage and equality. Plaintiffs are being denied both the right to marry, and the right to equality under the law.

The Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly described the right to marriage as “one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men;” a “basic civil right;” a component of the constitutional rights to liberty, privacy, association, and intimate choice; an expression of emotional support and public commitment; the exercise of spiritual unity; and a fulfillment of one’s self.

In short, in the words of the highest court in the land, marriage is “the most important relation in life,” and “of fundamental importance for all individuals.”

As the witnesses in this case will elaborate, marriage is central to life in America. It promotes mental, physical and emotional health and the economic strength and stability of those who enter into a marital union. It is the building block of family, neighborhood and community. The California Supreme Court has declared that the right to marry is of “central importance to an individual’s opportunity to live a happy, meaningful, and satisfying life as a full member of society.”

Proposition 8 ended the dream of marriage, the most important relation in life, for the plaintiffs and hundreds of thousands of Californians.

In May of 2008, the California Supreme Court concluded that under this State’s Constitution, the right to marry a person of one’s choice extended to all individuals, regardless of sexual orientation, and was available equally to same-sex and opposite-sex couples.

In November of 2008, the voters of California responded to that decision with Proposition 8, amending the State’s Constitution and, on the basis of sexual orientation and sex, slammed the door to marriage to gay and lesbian citizens.

The plaintiffs are two loving couples, American citizens, entitled to equality and due process under our Constitution. They are in deeply committed, intimate, and longstanding relationships. They want to marry the person they love; to enter into that “most important relation in life”; to share their dreams with their partners; and to confer the many benefits of marriage on their families.

But Proposition 8 singled out gay men and lesbians as a class, swept away their right to marry, pronounced them unequal, and declared their relationships inferior and less-deserving of respect and dignity.

In the words of the California Supreme Court, eliminating the right of individuals to marry a same-sex partner relegated those individuals to “second class” citizenship, and told them, their families and their neighbors that their love and desire for a sanctioned marital partnership was not worthy of recognition.

During this trial, Plaintiffs and leading experts in the fields of history, psychology, economics and political science will prove three fundamental points:

First – Marriage is vitally important in American society.

Second – By denying gay men and lesbians the right to marry, Proposition 8 works a grievous harm on the plaintiffs and other gay men and lesbians throughout California, and adds yet another chapter to the long history of discrimination they have suffered.

Third – Proposition 8 perpetrates this irreparable, immeasurable, discriminatory harm for no good reason.

I

MARRIAGE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT RELATION IN LIFE

Plaintiffs will present evidence from leading experts, representing some of the finest academic institutions in this country and the world, who will reinforce what the highest courts of California and the United States have already repeatedly said about the importance of marriage in society and the significant benefits that marriage confers on couples, their families, and the community. Proponents cannot dispute these basic facts.

While marriage has been a revered and important institution throughout the history of this country and this State, it has also evolved to shed irrational, unwarranted, and discriminatory restrictions and limitations that reflected the biases, prejudices or stereotypes of the past. Marriage laws that disadvantaged women or people of disfavored race or ethnicity have been eliminated. These changes have come from legislatures and the courts. Far from harming the institution of marriage, the elimination of discriminatory restrictions on marriage has strengthened the institution, its vitality, and its importance in American society today.

II

PROPOSITION 8 HARMS GAY AND LESBIAN INDIVIDUALS, THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR COMMUNITIES

Proposition 8 had a simple, straightforward, and devastating purpose: to withdraw from gay and lesbian people like the Plaintiffs their previously recognized constitutional right to marry. The official title of the ballot measure said it all: “Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry.”

Proponents of Proposition 8 have insisted that the persons they would foreclose from the institution of marriage have suffered no harm because they have been given the opportunity to form something called a “domestic partnership.” That is a cruel fiction.

Plaintiffs will describe the harm that they suffer every day because they are prevented from marrying. And they will describe how demeaning and insulting it can be to be told that they remain free to marry—as long, that is, that they marry someone of the opposite sex instead of the person they love, the companion of their choice.

And the evidence will demonstrate that relegating gay men and lesbians to “domestic partnerships” is to inflict upon them badges of inferiority that forever stigmatize their loving relationships as different, separate, unequal, and less worthy—something akin to a commercial venture, not a loving union. Indeed, the proponents of Proposition 8 acknowledge that domestic partnerships are not the same as traditional marriage. Proponents proudly proclaim that, under Proposition 8, the “unique and highly favorable imprimatur” of marriage is reserved to “opposite-sex unions.”

This government-sponsored societal stigmatization causes grave psychological and physical harms to gay men and lesbians and their families. It increases the likelihood that they will experience discrimination and harassment; it causes immeasurable harm.

Sadly, Proposition 8 is only the most recent chapter in our nation’s long and painful history of discrimination and prejudice against gay and lesbian individuals. They have been classified as degenerates, targeted by police, harassed in the workplace, censored, demonized, fired from government jobs, excluded from our armed forces, arrested for their private sexual conduct, and repeatedly stripped of their fundamental rights by popular vote. Although progress has occurred, the roots of discrimination run deep and its impacts spread wide.

III

PROPOSITION 8 HARMS GAY AND LESBIAN INDIVIDUALS FOR NO GOOD REASON

Proposition 8 singles out gay and lesbian individuals alone for exclusion from the institution of marriage. In California, even convicted murderers and child abusers enjoy the freedom to marry. As the evidence clearly establishes, this discrimination has been placed in California’s Constitution even though its victims are, and always have been, fully contributing members of our society. And it excludes gay men and lesbians from the institution of marriage even though the characteristic for which they are targeted—their sexual orientation—like race, sex, and ethnicity, is a fundamental aspect of their identity that they did not choose for themselves and, as the California Supreme Court has found, is highly resistant to change.

The State of California has offered no justification for its decision to eliminate the fundamental right to marry for a segment of its citizens. And its chief legal officer, the Attorney General, admits that none exists. And the evidence will show that each of the rationalizations for Proposition 8 invented by its Proponents is wholly without merit.

“Procreation” cannot be a justification inasmuch as Proposition 8 permits marriage by persons who are unable or have no intention of producing children. Indeed, the institution of civil marriage in this country has never been tied to the procreative capacity of those seeking to marry.

Proposition 8 has no rational relation to the parenting of children because same-sex couples and opposite sex couples are equally permitted to have and raise children in California. The evidence in this case will demonstrate that gay and lesbian individuals are every bit as capable of being loving, caring and effective parents as heterosexuals. The quality of a parent is not measured by gender but the content of the heart.

And, as for protecting “traditional marriage,” our opponents “don’t know” how permitting gay and lesbian couples to marry would harm the marriages of opposite-sex couples. Needless to say, guesswork and speculation is not an adequate justification for discrimination. In fact, the evidence will demonstrate affirmatively that permitting loving, deeply committed, couples like the plaintiffs to marry has no impact whatsoever upon the marital relationships of others.

When voters in California were urged to enact Proposition 8, they were encouraged to believe that unless Proposition 8 were enacted, anti-gay religious institutions would be closed, gay activists would overwhelm the will of the heterosexual majority, and that children would be taught that it was “acceptable” for gay men and lesbians to marry. Parents were urged to “protect our children” from that presumably pernicious viewpoint.

At the end of the day, whatever the motives of its Proponents, Proposition 8 enacted an utterly irrational regime to govern entitlement to the fundamental right to marry, consisting now of at least four separate and distinct classes of citizens: (1) heterosexuals, including convicted criminals, substance abusers and sex offenders, who are permitted to marry; (2) 18,000 same-sex couples married between June and November of 2008, who are allowed to remain married but may not remarry if they divorce or are widowed; (3) thousands of same-sex couples who were married in certain other states prior to November of 2008, whose marriages are now valid and recognized in California; and, finally (4) all other same-sex couples in California who, like the Plaintiffs, are prohibited from marrying by Proposition 8.

There is no rational justification for this unique pattern of discrimination. Proposition 8, and the irrational pattern of California’s regulation of marriage which it promulgates, advances no legitimate state interest. All it does is label gay and lesbian persons as different, inferior, unequal, and disfavored. And it brands their relationships as not the same, and less-approved than those enjoyed by opposite sex couples. It stigmatizes gays and lesbians, classifies them as outcasts, and causes needless pain, isolation and humiliation.

It is unconstitutional.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/01/ted-olsons-opening-statement.html#more
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Part III is the clincher...
PROPOSITION 8 HARMS GAY AND LESBIAN INDIVIDUALS FOR NO GOOD REASON

Love it. So true.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. prop 8 is the forced imposition of religion, particular mormonism, on ALL citizens. nt
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
82. Mormons may have played a leading role in passing prop 8...
But this open hatred is held by most Christians in America. Its sad that so many still hold onto Bronze Age ideas in the 21st Century.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. But we still hate Andrew, don't we? Obama cheerleader?
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. couldn't say and that's beside the point. Carry on. n/t
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh? Is Andrew arguing this in court?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
50. No. Ted Olsen is
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wakemewhenitsover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. The question is, do we still hate Olson?...
This is the same Olson who represented Bush in Bush v. Gore, and served as Assistant Attorney General under Reagan.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
48. He's doing what's right in this case
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 11:08 AM by Alcibiades
He has always been an excellent lawyer. Good to see him on the right side of an issue, for once.

I still hate him anyway, though.
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disndat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
62. Olson probably had an epiphany.
9/11 (the inside Bush job) killed his wife Barbara, who was on one of the planes that crashed into the WTC tower and he had inside view of how Bushco tried to subvert the U.S. Constitution in every criminal way possible.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. I wasn't aware folks were professing their love for Ted Olson.
People seem more stunned than anything. Good try though, asshole. :crazy:

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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. Attacking the messenger usually means you have
Edited on Mon Jan-11-10 11:31 PM by ThomCat
nothing intelligent to say about subject. :shrug:

I would think that on something as vital as LGBT civil rights you could come up with something better. It's not as if this is an obscure topic that nobody ever discusses around here.

People have good reasons to be skeptical of Andrew Sullivan, but that doesn't mean his stuff isn't worth reading on occasion. He's a smart commentator. You just have to know who he is and where he's coming from so that you can add the appropriate grain of salt occasionally.

As for Ted Olsen, we were all skeptical, and many of us were absolutely horrified, when we found out that he was arguing this case for us. Given his history, some expected that he might deliberately throw the case just to help neo-cons and the "family values" set. But he apparently really supports our equal rights and he's very passionate and articulate about it. So regardless of his history, Good Luck Ted!

Edit for spelling
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
52. Good job shitting on this thread.
:thumbsdown:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. I can't believe I'm cheering Ted Olsen.
lol
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's making me feel a little queasy.
:)
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. Like the opinions leaders in adverse sides are on the same side.
Kabuki?

the fact is that singles and non-heterosexuals support heteroexuals that breed when population is the most vital issue followed by environment, economics (a subset of environment), and human health and safety

Simply correct of wealth and income would do much in the short term but population and environment are the issues.

Wars are most distructive and serve a small minority.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Maybe, just perhaps, reflexive hatred and prejudice isn't the way
Even when one thinks they're doing it defensively.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
12.  People don't "think" they are doing anything defensively.
They react; that is defensive and it has nothing to do with thinking.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Is this the same Ted Olsen who was Bush's Solicitor General?
Really?
wow...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yep.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. Wife Barbara mde calls from a 9-11 airplane
that the FBI claim do not exist except according to Ted O>
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. A very troublesome part of the Olsen Family history . . .
and the new "Mrs." seems to look exactly like the old "Mrs." ... !!

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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
78. Why is that troublesome?
Why would you care?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #78
87. Why would any of us care if Barbara Olsen were still alive???
Edited on Wed Jan-13-10 12:57 AM by defendandprotect
:eyes:
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. Extremely weird reply at best.
Get some help.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. Clearly, you've asked about something
you don' understand --

What I'm saying to you is the FBI reports there was no Olsen phone call ---

would have been impossible. All of the phone calls were impossible.

The likelihood is that Barbara Olsen is still alive --

and coincidentally, the new Mrs. Olsen seems to be Barbara Olsen.

9/11 MIHOP --

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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Reading your explaination I am sorry I brought it up. Cheers.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. OTOH, I'm always glad to give an honest answer . . .
even if someone prefers to not hear it --



:)


Happy New Year -- we hope!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. I was gonna say the 6same thing. Oh, well--GO TED! NT
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
49. Me, either . . . Olsen also started out as a liberal and then the switch to rw nut . . .
and here he is back again on the other side of the divide!!

Olsen and the "Mrs" participation in 9/11 is also quite worrisome --

In fact, pictures of the new "Mrs." look amazingly like the old "Mrs." -- !!!

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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
63. I'm cheering, but I don't have to enjoy it! (nt)
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. I had my doubts about Ted Olson taking this on
But as you say, this does say it all.
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. Wow. Very impressive. And more than a little surreal from Ted Olson. K&R.
Thanks for posting this!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Lawyers are hired guns. They don't have to like or agree with
those they represent, but they are paid to represent them to the best of their ability.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Pretty sure he agrees in the unconstitutionality of the situation. n/t
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. A good lawyer has to put the law first, his feelings second.
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gels Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
65. Agreed, this means nothing nt
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
84. He volunteered and may not even get paid, if I remember. He sought out
those in this case to argue it. If you think about a true fiscal old school conservative (not the religious nuts like Bush), then it is a valid stance. The government shouldn't be in your business.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. There is a valid and interesting constitutional question. Can you single out
one class of people and deny them rights afforded the rest of us.

The Theocratic right wants people to see it as a choice so they can discriminate against them without fear of consequences.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
17. This is Ted Olsen? Really?
Arkansas project Ted Olsen? Florida Fraud Ted Olsen? Probable creator of the "19 flunkies with razor blades" myth Ted Olsen?

I don't believe it. Did he have some sort of religious conversion?? :wtf:

(and obviously not one of a fundagelical nature, considering.)
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I'd like to think David Boies also had a role in this
After all, he was Gore's lawyer in Bush v. Gore.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Boies did, from what I read.
It was a long article over in the GLBT Forum here on DU. I read it just the other night. It's a great article. It goes into more depth about how Olsen got on board.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. Ted's been married 4 times--he's fluent in the subject...n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
54. Maybe he got bumped on the head?
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 11:14 AM by defendandprotect
As I recall Ted, he was a raving liberal --

and then converted to a raving rw lunatic --

Played a role in the 9/11 MIHOP --

and evidently the new "Mrs." looks amazingly like the old "Mrs." -- !!



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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. Ted said all that? Wow. K&R. nt
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. Damn, a Republican who gets it.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. Ted Olsen saying this is why I love the law (and work in it). Ted Olsen, of all people,
making an abso-effing-lutely BRILLIANT opening statement before the highest court in the nation on an issue that I find it difficult to believe he's entirely comfortable with, but he's doing what all good lawyers do. They put their own feelings aside and argue to the absolute best of their ability.

:applause:

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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. These are his true feelings
He's made it very clear how passionately he feels about this in a number of interviews.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. Really? That's good to hear but it's kind of astonishing. He really gets it. nt
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
47. Oh he wanted this case.
He's very passionate about it, too.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
26. I was skeptical at first, but now it looks like he means to really fight for us.
:thumbsup:
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
27. Ted Olsen the right-wing pig from Bush-Cheney administration?
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. That's an insult to pigs. Ted Olsen is a total piece of shit.
The lowest form of republican scum imaginable.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. Yeah, but if he's trying to tank this case, I can't see it yet.
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 02:10 AM by sofa king
But I'm no lawyer, either.

If he isn't going to tank it, that suggests to me is that Ted Olson no longer answers directly to his former masters (Edit: Except maybe the most evil one, who happens to have a gay daughter).

I wonder if he'll talk someday? That guy has a lot of things he needs to talk about.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. interesting point about Cheney's daughter
I hadn't thought of that.

Which means that Cheney's blessing on Olsen's involvement would mean that
1) Cheney is actually a good dad
2) Cheney is therefore not wholly the personification of absolute and complete evil
3) I now have to readjust my world view

Isn't it kind of weird-feeling when bad people do the right thing?
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #43
59. I hadn't thought of it either until after I wrote it.
But I'm not sure how much world-view adjustment one needs. Cheney is a sociopathic right-winger, and like most sociopathic right-wingers he hates all the things he's supposed to hate, until that hate starts to hurt him personally. Only then does he want to change things.

He's no better than the raft of Bush Administration members who suddenly had second thoughts about Bush's wars once their children began to be deployed to them.

It makes me feel a little oogy inside, because as far as I can tell, enlightening right-wingers through the misery of their children seems to be the only way to impose a little bit of rational thought upon them. That makes me want to have all kinds of misery visited upon those people, whose only crime is that their parents are assholes. And that's not cool at all.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
67. Guess that is one of the bases for cognitive dissonance..and I still cannot bring myself
to believe that THE Ted Olsen..that we all know and despise...is doing this out of some altruistic motive.

I am leaning toward..."Someday we will find out the true reason for this."
And I cannot help but presume that it will be a self-serving reason of some sort.
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #30
45. And yet,
He's on the right side of this issue, while our progressive President isn't.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. Scary, isn't it?
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. Impressive (nt)
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. bravo, Ted Olsen
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Terra Alta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. WTG, Ted.
Never thought I'd be cheering on Ted Olson. His current wife is a Democrat, though, perhaps she made him see the light, so to speak. Either way, he has made a very powerful argument for the right side! :thumbsup:
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. I don't like him personally. But he's good at what he does. n/t
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. Moral dilemma...
How do you admire a person whom you so thoroughly despise?

I am glad to see Ted Olsen fighting for gay marriage rights but, on the other hand, I suspect he is a neocon traitor who helped formulate the official bush 9/11 conspiracy theory.



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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
39. I hope I'm wrong. But I don't much like this. Here's why:
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 12:40 AM by struggle4progress
(1) The federal courts haven't been much help on issues like DOMA and DADT. They moved to the right with W's appointments. So they're not likely to be much help on this. And a loss sets a precedent

(2) Court wins for our side on these issues have mobilized the wingnuts in recent years. The Hawaii decision produced a big brushfire for a Federal marriage amendment; that was cut off only by burning the ugly firestop known as DOMA. The California decision produced Proposition 8. If Olson wins, we should expect another big push by the troglodytes for a Federal marriage amendment. Look at how many states have homophobic restrictions in their statutes or constitutions: that ought to give you some idea of the Congressional balance of power on this issue

(3) Court cases tend to suppress organizing. Instead of getting involved, people sit down, fold their hands, and wait for the lawyers to settle things. The Olson case is likely to lull people into complacency about these issues, and that means it will take even longer to win this fight
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. A federal marriage amendment couldn't pass
with a very Republican congress. It's not going to happen unless, at some point in the future, Republicans have more than a 2/3rds majority in both houses. Which is a virtual impossibility.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
77. That could be essentially correct. But the 2006 House vote wasn't strictly along
party lines; the last effort at health care reform produced a R blowout in 1994; sweetness and light, on this issue, has a less than stunning record at the state level in recent years; and traditionally neither Congress nor the courts tend to show great courage. If the Rs gain seats in 2010, the result will be a howl from conservative Rs and Ds alike that the Ds have been too liberal. Congressfolk in many cases look homeward to decide how to vote, and well over 3/4 of the states at least restrict marriage, 3/5 of them by constitutional amendment

So in the (unlikely) event of a decisive victory in this case, one should expect an ugly attempt by the rightwing at rollback. Long-term demographics are against the rollback, but that does not guarantee what the near-term effects will be. Many of us were stunned that California passed Prop 8 in response to its earlier Supreme Court ruling; of course, California is a strange case politically; but perhaps the bottom line is just that it is a grave mistake to neglect grassroots organizing. Instead of simply waiting quietly for the courts to act, one should attempt to undo Prop 8 and to make any other gains possible elsewhere
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #39
55. Wise thinking there ---
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 11:23 AM by defendandprotect
Agree --

Except that IMO the elite create this right wing religious nonsense --

much as they did with FreedomWorks/Teabaggers -- all just as fake.

Every part of the right wing movement has been brought about with elite/corporate

money --

From the first days when Prescott Bush and a bunch of wealthy Repugs bought Dick Nixon --

to the GOP giving start up money in the 1980's for the Christian Coalition.

Scaife financed Dobson's organization -- and other wealthy right wingers financed Bauer's

organization. Just as they've financed all the right wing think tanks and organizations --

Heritage Foundation and CATO. Not to mention right wing takeover of MSM -- from publishing

houses to newspapers. And CIA also involved in that, of course.

But coming back to religion . . . organized patriarchal religion is the underpinning for

patriarchy -- and a primary and frequently used tool for conquest.


PS: Just want to be clear that what I'm saying is there is of course no basis for claims

of "inferiority" of any human being whether based on gender or sexual orientation - or any

other myth of "inferiority." What it's all about is exploitation for profit for the few.



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plantwomyn Donating Member (779 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. Perry v. Schwarzenegger
This isn't "the Olsen case".
Kristin Perry and Sandra Steir, Paul Katami and Jeffrey Zarrillo. This is their case. Unless we erroneously conclude that these two couples want to torpedo Same Sex marriage, I think we have to assume that they trust their TWO lawyers to be FIERCE ADVOCATES for them. Unlike our president, it appears to me that Mr. Olsen actually read the Constitution. And Mr. Olsen may even realize that no matter what he or Obama "believe marriage is", unlike our president, when Olsen saw the part about equal protection of the law, he accepted that it meant equal even if you are gay or lesbian.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. ... Soon after Olson and Boies filed the case, last May, some leading gay-rights organizations —
among them the A.C.L.U., Human Rights Campaign, Lambda Legal, and the National Center for Lesbian Rights — issued a statement condemning such efforts. The odds of success for a suit weren’t good, the groups said, because the “Supreme Court typically does not get too far ahead of either public opinion or the law in the majority of states” ... “A loss now may make it harder to go to court later,” the activists’ statement read. “It will take us a lot longer to get a good Supreme Court decision if the Court has to overrule itself.” Besides, the groups argued, “We lost the right to marry in California at the ballot box. That’s where we need to win it back.” Plenty of gay-marriage supporters agreed that it was smarter to wait until the movement had been successful in more states—and, possibly, the composition of the Supreme Court had shifted ... William Eskridge, a professor of constitutional law at Yale University, and a prominent advocate of same-sex marriage, says that he is now “even more pessimistic” about the lawsuit’s chances, given that, in recent months, voters in Maine approved a referendum overturning a same-sex-marriage law, and the state senates of New York and New Jersey opted not to allow gay marriages. “A question that so evenly but intensely divides the country is not one that should be decided by the courts nationwide,” Eskridge said. “It’s the mirror image of the mistake the Bush Administration made by trying to introduce a constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman.” He added, “It is just not something that this Supreme Court is going to deliver on at this point” ... Younger Americans endorse gay marriage at strikingly higher rates than older ones. According to a 2009 study underwritten by the Pew Charitable Trusts, fifty-eight per cent of Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-nine support gay marriage, compared to twenty-two per cent of Americans sixty-five and older. And the age divide cuts across some ideological lines as well. In a 2008 study, twenty-six per cent of white evangelicals under the age of thirty supported full marriage rights for same-sex couples, while only nine per cent of older evangelicals did. Patrick Egan, a political scientist at New York University, and Nathaniel Persily, a law professor at Columbia University, who together have studied public opinion on gay rights, believe that in five years a majority of Americans will favor same-sex marriage—the result of generational replacement and what Persily calls “attitude adjustment” ...
A Risky Proposal
Is it too soon to petition the Supreme Court on gay marriage?
by Margaret Talbot
January 18, 2010
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/01/18/100118fa_fact_talbot
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plantwomyn Donating Member (779 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. Yea
I read that too. The groups you listed seem to think they control weather a gay person in this country can litigate. I doubt they would say that they could have guaranteed victory in Iowa. They don't have much of a track record so far in other states. There is another suit from Mass. that they are involved in. It's only about Mass. though I think.
Screw the GLBT "leadership". They are so busy having banquets at which they sprain their arms patting each other on the back they never really get shit done. They are running scared. If I could get a lawyer to take our case I would go for it. Lambda said Indiana isn't important enough and that they already have the Mass. case against DOMA so I'll just have to wait for that to see what happens.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. The concern is: riding off to SCOTUS with a 4-4 split and everything depending on Kennedy
Stevens, Ginsburg, and Breyer are probably on the right side. Scalia and Thomas probably aren't. The best uninformed guess will be that Sotomayor will be on the right side but rightwingers Roberts and Alito won't. That leaves Kennedy as the question mark, since he has a mixed record in such cases
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
70. I have to agree since I would not trust Olsen as far as I could throw him.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
41. Kudos to Ted.
Right to the point. K&R
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
42. Bravo to Ted Olson
I hate the man's politics, but this is a great argument, and I hope he prevails.

Marriage is for ALL consenting adults.
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
53. Fam-damn-tastic!
K&R!

:applause:
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
56. Very interesting legal arguments
I`m anxious to see what happens with this.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Legal arguments, or simply Common Sense? eom
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
57. I hope a great wrong will be righted. How "Loving" that would be.
:kick:
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
60. Hell hath frozen over...
Wow. My head is spinning.

Rp
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
64. K&R
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
66. Brilliant.
Just brilliant! All here who have any experience in the research going into arguments for important cases will appreciate the hard work, probably from a legal team, that went into to this statement.

I was on such a team once and ended up being charged with writing the first draft. It is, just short of exhilarating, to sit in a courtroom and hear your words spoken.....OK, so I'm a legal geek!
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. With respect...
1)
Olson is a tool. I'll never respect him. I wouldn't trust him on a bet.
He's here because he is respected as a conservative, former solicitor
general of the US, and competent. He gives conservative credentials to
the argument. That is valuable here. That is why he is here.

At least he is on the correct side of an argument. Finally.
It will not wash away his sins.

2)
The arguments are satisfactory, articulate, competent. But there is nothing
extraordinary in them. These are standard rational basis and equal protection
arguments. Most good law school graduates could make them. The best students
could do every bit as well, I'm pretty sure.

All the arguments are essential,
but the KEY argument, the crux, will come down to the "separate is not equal"
prong. When the tissue of hypocrisy that is the opposition argument is fully
shredded it is THAT argument that will test our nation, it is that
argument that must win, as it did in Brown v Board.

3)
The real trick, however is to get this before the Court at the right moment
and in the right context. That is all the lawyering. This is the 'make or break'
maneuvering. Note that bringing this PARTICULAR case is controversial, even risky, and
legal scholars and writers have made note of that, including criticizing it.
Nonetheless, here we are.

A central point in the context of this case is that the California Supreme Court
has specifically ruled that :
(a) pre prop H8, the dual scheme of marriage/domestic partnership violated the
State's Constitution under Equal Protection, whilst
(b) post H8, the proposition 8 overturned the previous ruling and modified the
State's equal protection guarentees.

ho, boy.
This sets up directly the challenge under the US Constitution. Hard to see how
the Supreme Court is going to duck this decision. That's what these lawyers have
to make sure... that's the hard part. We wish them luck.
Walker seems a good judge.

A popcorn moment, if ever there was one. Lets watch!

:popcorn:







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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
68. Ted fucking Olsen?? Does he have terminal cancer or something??
Did Barbara come back to haunt him, telling him to change his ways or something?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Kind of surprising that he's more of a "Fierce Advocate" than our president, huh?
:shrug:
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #71
81. well...he is a hired gun. n/t
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lsewpershad Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
73. K&R +10000001
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
74. K&R
:thumbsup:
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
76. It's like that time GIJoe and Cobra teamed up
to fight the drug cartel.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
79. Mr Fucking Arkansas Project himself
Mr. Ted "I lied my ass off to Congress about the Arkansas Project and got away with it and did no jail time" Olsen?
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
83. Brilliant. He spoke so perfetly about the harm done to us that it brought tears to my eyes. I had
never even seen it so clearly.
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
89. Kicking
and noting so I can read later.
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