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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 07:03 PM
Original message
Paul Krugman on Depression Economics
It’s crucial to appreciate where we are. We may have avoided a repeat of the Great Depression, but we’re still very much living in a world in which the usual rules of economic policy don’t apply. That is, we’re living in a world governed by depression economics – and our understanding of the logic of depression economics… is our only defense against economic disaster – Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman, from the last paragraph of his book, “The Return of Depression Economics – and the Crisis of 2008”.


The last paragraph of Krugman’s book explains the whole purpose of the book. We can get through this economic crisis if it’s handled properly. But if it’s not handled properly we could end up having a repeat of the 1930s.

In the last chapter of his book, Krugman describes the main gist of our current economic crisis, how we got there and how we can get out. By way of comparison to the Great Depression of the 1930s, he says:

While depression itself has not returned, depression economics – the kinds of problems that characterized much of the world economy in the 1930s but have not been seen since – has staged a stunning comeback. The world economy has turned out to be a much more dangerous place than we imagined.


Depression economics

Krugman explains that depression economics is the failure of the demand side of the economy, i.e. spending by the private sector has stalled. Without any direct reference to Ronald Reagan or his disciples, Krugman takes a swipe at the ideology that brought us to this point:

The specific set of foolish ideas that has laid claim to the name “supply side economics” (Otherwise known as “trickle down” economics) is a crank doctrine that would have had little influence if it did not appeal to the prejudices of editors and wealthy men. But over the past few decades, there has been a steady drift in emphasis in economic thinking away from the demand side to the supply side of the economy.

Krugman sums up the crux of our current situation:

In the short run the world is lurching from (economic) crisis to crisis, all of them crucially involving the problem of generating sufficient demand… One country after another has experienced a recession that at least temporarily undoes years of economic progress, and finds that the conventional policy responses don’t seem to have any effect. Once again, the question of how to create enough demand to make use of the economy’s capacity has become crucial. Depression economics is back.

In the last chapter of the hardback edition of his book, while making comparisons between now and the Great Depression, Krugman makes a point of saying that he doesn’t think this one will be as bad. But in the new paperback edition, he isn’t quite so sure:

By the time this epilogue was written (June 2009) the resemblance had become all too close. Over the past year, by a number of measures, the world has experienced a slump every bit as severe as the first year of the Great Depression… This slump has led to mass unemployment…

He then shows a graph that plots worldwide industrial production over time, for the Great Depression vs. now, to demonstrate the very similar first year trends. It looks a lot like this one:




How we got here

My parents used to tell me that we couldn’t have another Great Depression because the lessons we learned from that tragedy taught us how to prevent similar future occurrences. And that has generally been the consensus of our nation’s economists, ever since we recovered from the Great Depression. But sometimes lessons are forgotten – or they are unlearned when influential elites change the story to further their own selfish interests. Krugman makes that point:

How did this second great colossal muddle arise? In the aftermath of the Great Depression, we redesigned the (economic) machine so that we did understand it, well enough at any rate to avoid the big disasters. Banks, the piece of the system that malfunctioned so badly in the 1930s, were placed under tight regulation and supported by a strong safety net. Meanwhile, international movements of capital, which played a disruptive role in the 1930s, were also limited. The financial system became a little boring but much safer.

Then things got interesting and dangerous again… The growth of the shadow banking system, without any corresponding extension of regulation, set the stage for latter day bank runs on a massive scale. These runs involved frantic mouse clicks rather than frantic mobs outside locked bank doors, but they were no less devastating. What we’re going to have to do, clearly, is relearn the lessons our grandfathers were taught by the Great Depression…

Krugman talks about what he calls the “shadow banking system” (discussed in more detail in this post) – the taking on of investment bank functions by financial entities that are not formally labeled as banks but which actually were banks, in that they functioned as banks. It was all part of the general deregulatory atmosphere that began in the early 1980s with the Reagan Revolution. Krugman states what should have been obvious to all of those who have influenced our nation’s economic policies for the past 30 years:

The basic principle should be clear: Anything that has to be rescued during a financial crisis, because it plays an essential role in the financial mechanism, should be regulated when there isn’t a crisis so that it doesn’t take excessive risks. Since the 1930s commercial banks have been required to have adequate capital, hold reserves of liquid assets… and limit the types of investments they make, all in return for federal guarantees when things go wrong. Now that we’ve seen a wide range of non-bank institutions create what amounts to a banking crisis, comparable regulation has to be extended to a much larger part of the system.

In other words, to hell with the idea that we should rescue our financial elites with trillions of dollars of taxpayer money when they run into trouble (i.e. socialize their risks), while acceding to their wishes to be free of regulation (i.e. privatizing their benefits) when they do well.


On the worthlessness of the bank bailouts

Krugman was quite perplexed about the purpose of the bank bailouts, both under the Bush and the Obama administrations. This is what he said about the Bush administration bailout, in his book:

At first, after the fall of Lehman Brothers, the Treasury Department proposed buying up $700 billion in troubled assets from banks and other financial institutions. Yet it was never clear how this was supposed to help the situation… It’s not clear whether banks will be willing to lend out the funds, as opposed to sitting on them. My guess is that… there will eventually have to be more assertions of government control – in effect, it will come closer to a full temporary nationalization of a significant part of the financial system… Nothing could be worse than failing to do what’s necessary out of fear that acting to save the financial system is somehow “socialist.”

He didn’t have kinder words to say about the Obama administration’s plans to handle the situation. This is what Krugman had to say about Geithner’s bank bailout plan:

The Geithner scheme would offer a one-way bet: if asset values go up, the investors profit, but if they go down, the investors can walk away from their debt… This isn't really about letting markets work. It's just an indirect, disguised way to subsidize purchases of bad assets.

In other words, this is a gift from the American taxpayers to the banks – in the form of socialized risks and privatized benefits.


How do we get out?

Because the underlying problem is quite similar to the cause of the Great Depression of the 1930s, Krugman proposes a similar solution – the one that FDR utilized, and which worked so well then:

What the world needs right now is a rescue operation… The obvious solution is to put in more capital… In 1933 the Roosevelt administration used the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to recapitalize banks…

He was very critical of the Bush administration’s less than half-hearted efforts in this regard. And though he felt that the Obama administration took more of a step in the right direction, it still fell far short of what was needed:

Mr. Obama’s prescription doesn’t live up to his diagnosis. The economic plan he’s offering isn’t as strong as his language about the economic threat. In fact, it falls well short of what’s needed…. A huge gap is opening up between what the American economy can produce and what it’s able to sell. And the Obama plan is nowhere near big enough to fill this “output gap.”…

Only about 60 percent of the Obama plan consists of public spending. The rest consists of tax cuts – and many economists are skeptical about how much these tax cuts will actually do to boost spending. The bottom line is that the Obama plan is unlikely to close more than half of the looming output gap, and could easily end up doing less than a third of the job.


Where we stand now

Krugman is cautiously optimistic about our current situation. At the end of his book he says:

At the time of writing (June 2009) things seem to be looking a bit better. Or to be more accurate, the rate at which things are getting worse seems to be slowing. For example, the United States is still losing hundreds of thousands of jobs each month – but it isn’t losing jobs as fast as it was earlier this year. The sense that the world economy was plunging uncontrollably into the abyss has eased.

While the risk of total economic collapse seems to be receding, that’s a long way from saying that the crisis is over. Think of the world economy as a patient who was rushed to the hospital and seemed to be at risk of dying. Now the patient is off the critical list but is still very, very ill – with no hint of when a full recovery might happen.

Things haven’t changed that much since Krugman wrote those words, as another 85 thousand jobs were lost in our country in the last month of 2009.


The intersection of depression economics and politics

Paul Krugman’s Nobel Prize in economics speaks for itself. What makes him an especially valuable source of information is that he makes every effort to bring his economic discussions down to the level of people who don’t have a great deal of background in economics. Other books of his that I would strongly recommend include: “The Great Unraveling: Losing our Way in the New Century” – a scalding critique of the George W. Bush administration’s fraudulent economic policies; and “The Conscience of a Liberal” – which dwelt largely with how FDR’s economic policies rescued us from the Great Depression and set the stage for several decades of economic prosperity, until being undone by the Reagan Revolution.

Yet there is one very important dimension that Krugman does not cover in “The Return of Depression Economics”: the political dimension. Nothing better illustrates the omission of this crucial dimension than the last paragraph of the first edition of the book:

We will not achieve the understanding we need unless we are willing to think clearly about our problems… I believe that the only important structural obstacles to world prosperity are the obsolete doctrines that clutter the minds of men.

True enough as far as it goes. But I think we should ask how obsolete doctrines come to “clutter the minds of men” who ought to know better. With the ballooning of income inequality to obscene and unprecedented levels, some very wealthy people have acquired the means to influence national policy as never before. Gabriel Thompson explains how this power is abused, in an article titled “Meet the Wealth Gap”:

It’s about the vast political power conferred by wealth, which can be deployed to support institutions pushing policies that magnify the wealth divide. (These institutions) subsidize senior fellows who … see something sinister in a living-wage movement… (They) call the movement a “sneaky way of bringing socialist economics to America’s cities”.

In other words, these wealthy elites use their influence to push policies they perceive as benefiting themselves, no matter how destructive they are to the rest of humanity. They disingenuously disclaim the warnings of our best climate scientists, to argue that global warming need not be taken seriously, thus sheltering corporations that continue to pollute our atmosphere and thereby accelerating the warming of our planet, while accumulating immense profits. Naomi Klein explains how this works in “The Shock Doctrine”:

Perhaps part of the reason why so many of our elites are so sanguine about climate change is that they are confident they will be able to buy their way out of the worst of it. The Rapture is a parable for what they are building – a system that invites destruction and disaster, then swoops in with private helicopters and airlifts them… to divine safety.

Al Gore says it as well as anyone, in his book, “Our Choice – A Plan to Solve the Climate Crisis”. Referring to the denial of our global climate crisis, he says:

The decision by powerful ideologues and self-interested corporate advocates to convert “questions of truth into questions of power” has produced lassitude in reaction to genuine, fact-based warnings of an onrushing tragedy with no parallel in all of history.

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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. The 1%ers aren't living in a Depression. The other 99%? Meh! We don't matter. nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Rep. Henry Waxman said something very similar not too long ago
There seem to be two economic realities operating in our country today. Most Americans live in a world where economic security is precarious and there are real economic consequences for failure. But our nation’s top executives seem to live by a different set of rules.


http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/03/where_socialism.html
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've not seen this nice an assemblage of this kind of material.
Edited on Sun Jan-10-10 07:49 PM by Goldstein1984
Thank you.

It seems to me that the only realistic path forward is a citizen's revolt against a revolting elite.
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jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well said!
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Check out the Journal. TfC is ne of the best.
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Vermontgrown Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Goldstein
The revolt is the only political tool Americans are left with. You are right.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
37. Thank you
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Once again, intelligently stated ,and yet clear enough for even a doofus like myself to understand
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Thank you ...
I'm sure you'd be able to understand what Krugman has to say.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. At times in history the only thing you can predict is 'massive change of some order'...
We could predict a rising up of the majority of the population that is being abused by the economic elites.

Or that the people fail to rise up, and events continue down the same line we are on until we reach a tipping point that results in a sudden change of circumstances (ie. depression, massive unemployment, default, etc.)

Or worst of all, elites use their wealth to wield the power of government to solidify their positions, put down any threats to their use of government, and we revert back to a feudal state.

But the one thing we do know is that 'massive change of some order' is coming, and we can either work to make that change just and comprehensive for the majority of our citizens or we can sit back and watch as it engulfs us and binds the lives of our children and grandchildren for decades to come.
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Vermontgrown Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Wow!
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LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Well Said!
Your analysis is correct. There has to be a tipping point sometime soon - I just hope it's in the direction of 1930's America rather than 1930's Germany.
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prairierose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you for taking the time to compile..
this information in a way that many can understand. It is important that more people begin to understand as well as feel the results of 30 years of "supply side economics" and the destruction it has brought.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. Very nice summary
Edited on Mon Jan-11-10 05:32 AM by JCMach1
Krugman, Stiglitz and Reich have been the only sane voices during this whole economic mess.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Yes, and
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. and William Black

check out the blog he writes for

Economic Perspectives from Kansas City
Policy Analysis from the Faculty at the University of Missouri-KC
http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/


If you just want William Black's postings...
http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/search/label/William%20K.%20Black


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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
12. A great read, and understandable to us all.
Edited on Mon Jan-11-10 08:28 AM by zeemike
But I have come to expect that from you.

But I would like to comment on what is at stake here...It will be a lot worse for the number of people now than then, because then most people were farmers and though they had no money, they still had food and often would share it with large number of unemployed men that would show up at the back dore and offer to work for food.

We are in a much different situation now....If you need to get food you will have to knock on the back door of Archer Daniel Midland who have gobbled up the food production to a great extent.
And so we will have a lot more unemployed people that will have to be fed in soup kitchens because hungry people are dangerous people to the powerful eleit....You cannot tell the masses to eat cake.

So for my solution (partial of course) we need to take back the land...literaly.
We need to take the first step toward beating our swords into plow shares, and that must be for people to posses the land, because it is the land that will feed us whether there is money or not.
and so we need an agrarian revolution in the mind as well as in the law.

And on this subject let me tell you something I learned while searching for my ancestors on a web site.
I encountered an excerpt from a book written about a farmer that became a millionair...he started in early 1850s in west central Illinois with noting and did well. But what struck me is why and he explained that at that time there was no money, but if you could grow an excess of wheat or grain you could take it down to the river and sell it for Spanish silver...and the short of this is that the farmers had the money and could buy things, and so when things like the McCormick reaper came in it allowed them to produce more and become well off...And before I had wondered why all these old farm houses in old pictures were so big and well built.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Excellent points zeemike
It's a terrible shame that the world has plenty enough food to feed everyone, and yet millions starve to death and many additional hundreds of millions go hungry because the land is concentrated into so few hands, while access is denied to so many.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
15. A lot of words to offer that GREED contiinually knocks societies down
No jobs - no consumers - no demand - no sales.

We are here today in America because of the insatiable greed of a small strata of society.
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onlyadream Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. We really blew it
we could have taken the FDR route and started fixing our aging infrastructure, but no - "we" decided to give tons of money to Wall Street. I guess the trickle down theory still lives.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. Krugman's brand of utopian globalism is just another variant of "trickle down"
Krugman is a man with a his finger constantly in the air, that's for sure. During the Bush regime he was an outsourcing cheerleader--now, he's a populist firebrand?

What tomorrow?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. He was not a cheerleader for the Bush regime. He probably wrote the most scathing critique of any
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Read it again. He was an OUTSOURCING cheerleader during the Bush years...
Edited on Mon Jan-11-10 02:21 PM by Romulox
In other words, he stood for a "manufacturing jobs don't matter" sort of utopian globalism in which we all were supposed to receive "new economy" jobs while pushing China inexorably toward democracy.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I don't believe that
I've never read anything to that effect from him, and I've read three of his books plus numerous articles. I believe you have him confused with someone else. Show me where he did that.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Truth hurts. Hit google. nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Oh, great response.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Jesus Christ. You have SOME responsibility for your own education.
You cannot have read much Krugman if you are ignorant of his advocacy for "free trade", at any rate. :hi:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Por ejamplo:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Krugman's conclusion from one the articles you cited:
It is hard to believe that people who have spent years, even decades, writing about economics are really so fuzzy-minded that they cannot see the difference between protecting consumers from tainted produce and protecting workers from competing products...

Would you mind explaining how you equate that or anything else in the articles you cite with being a cheerleader for outsourcing?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Please, work with me here some. I cannot distill Krugman's entire career into a single paragraph
for you.

I provided four links (which you haven't had time to read yet!) that document Krugman's advocacy for "free trade" (and, more specifically, Ricardian "comparative advantage" theory). Moreover, you fairly had to step over Krugman's protestations about his "not being a protectionist!" to reach the conclusion of the article.

Read deeper. Google "Paul Krugman Free Trade". I am not misrepresenting his position.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. You haven't explained anything to support your points
You've asserted that he is "cheerleader" for free trade, with NO explanation.

Then you posted some links. I read one of the links and asked you to explain how that link supported your position.





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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. "I read one of the links". Jesus H! No more typing. READ. nt
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. I cannot distill Krugman's entire career into a single paragraph
But you seem to be able to distill it into a weathervane. :eyes:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. And if you want some LULz, I'll dig up the link from near the end of W's reign where Krugman
decides he needs to "rethink" his advocacy for free trade. :eyes:

Turns out that you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. You need a nobel prize winning economist!

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. What on earth are you talking about?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. If you read more, posted less, it would be apparent. nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Another brilliant explanation
Your explanatory skills are amazing.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-11-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I provided four links, of which you *skimmed* one. I can do no more for you.
I am pointing out a commonly known fact, which I have amply documented. You don't seem interested in reading any contradictory materials. What else can I do? Do you think the case is made by sheer force of snark? Anyhow, if you're at all curious about the matter, I suggest investigating further. Don't take my word for it! :shrug:
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. This is an interesting exchange between you and TFC
And it may well point to a continuing problem that we have on the left.
We have enemies and those enemies are forever discredited even if they help us.
If you remember John Dean was in the Nixon white house but changed and is now on our side....people can and do change and when they do we should celebrate that not continue to treat anything they say as false.
But your post on this did kick this topic which I see as important,and so it was a good thing...and I wanted to kick this one more time just in case someone missed it.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. We have "enemies"--such as Mr. Krugman--because they push ideologies which destroy our way of life.
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 09:57 AM by Romulox
For example, globalism and "Free Trade".

However, as I've suggested many times in this thread (apparently the "finger in the air" and "weathervane" metaphores aren't as universal as I imagined) Mr. Krugman's main ideologies are adaptability and toadying to whomever is in power. Thus, during the Bush regime, Mr. Krugman was a steely-eyed capitalist. During the Obama admin, Mr. Krugman is a advocate for forced insurance. Pretty much whatever it takes.

"We have enemies and those enemies are forever discredited even if they help us."

How is Mr. Krugman "helping" and who is us? Krugman is providing so-called liberal cover for President Obama's mandatory, for profit insurance scheme, as well as his "Cadillac tax".

Frankly, I consider that worse than no help at all.
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BobTheSubgenius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
40. Who didn't see this onrushing, massive inequality?
It's been obvious for decades.
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