Imagine you are in a situation with a crazed shooter....

[Wetzelbill]

You are in a room of say 30 people, this guy starts blasting away, and then some guy like Dick Cheney pulls out his concealed weapon. Now remember, Dick Cheney, quintessential RW tough guy and avid hunter, shot up his own hunting partner while hunting quail, in a controlled environment when they practically have quail thrown in front of them to shoot. Not very stressful. Not too difficult. But somehow Cheney managed to panic and shoot another person.

Do you know that even trained police officers only hit their targets like 40 percent of the time in a heated battle? Do you realize how many trained soldiers are killed by other trained soldiers in friendly fire incidents? Last week, I think, even a Secret Service agent had a gun accidentally go off and injure others within the White House gates. You might think an SS agent has more experience with a gun and with safety than like 99 percent of the country. Consider what would happen if a whole society of yokels were armed.

I'm from Montana. Pretty much everybody I know hunts. Many friends and people I know have been in the military. I know lots of people in law enforcement. I literally know hundreds if not thousands of people who have experience handling guns.

You know how many of them I would trust to use a gun in a heated situation?

Maybe 4 or 5 of them at most.

In fact, the most gun experienced people I know also tend to be the goofiest. I know life long hunters who disparage Dems and other politicians for wanting gun control. Let me tell you these guys are not trustworthy. I know people who do stupid shit with guns all the time. Like this one guy who used to rail against Clinton, this guy and his family were always doing dumb things, like putting on several coats and shooting each other with birdshot. Yeah, that takes a genius. Or this one guy who used to take kittens and throw them off a train trestle and shoot them on the way down. Yeah, that's a guy I want pulling out a gun in a stressful situation.

Also, strictly speaking about men, it's a very unmanly thing to have to carry a gun around on your person out of fear like that. If a guy is so insecure, fearful and wimpy that he believes it's necessary to carry a gun at all times, then I would have to question their ability to handle themselves with a weapon in the first place. Plenty of guys I know think they are tough simply because they have a gun. Those types of men would be dangerous in a fire fight. Not to mention at other times. Imagine a wimp like that getting in an office argument. Would he out of insecurity decide to pull his gun out? Those types just aren't trustworthy. Unless somebody is in law enforcement or something like that, then feeling the need to carry a weapon around constantly is a serious character flaw, and a dangerous one.

You know, I have had guns pulled on me before. I have had a few knives pulled on me. Once I was even robbed. In those situations, you barely have time to think. In a knife situation myself and a few people started to rush the guy and he backed off and left. In the robbery once I saw the guy never had a weapon I tried to chase him down and he got away. But each time it all happened so fast that one false move on my part could have meant serious injury or death. I was fortunate enough to have kept my head. Now with the guns, I know for a fact that if I had a weapon on me and tried to pull it out I would have been shot to death. It was too fast, the people already had the gun pointed at me. If I went for something, trying to be a hero, it would have been over. That shit only happens to superheroes and in movies or in very lucky situations.

The rest of the time it's dangerous.

You know, I don't know the whole solution here, but I do know that it's insane to think that having everybody out there packing heat everywhere they go is a viable solution. It's just not and frankly anybody who thinks so has some serious problems.

Now maybe somebody with a gun could have stopped Cho from killing so many people. Maybe, but that is a big maybe.

And, in the end, having an armed class of insecure, jittery wimps like Dick Cheney would likely cause more shootings than anything. Just ask his quail hunting buddies.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Well, you'll be hearing the standard lines.

The advocates of concealed weapons will be all over you. Their arguments are pure bullshit -- unless you really like gunbattles in classrooms and random gun violence all over campus.

Have fun with this.

[mzteris]

2. Best argument I've ever read

against concealed weapons.

Everybody thinks they're a quickdraw macho man until they find themselves IN the situation.

Thanks.

And :hug: against the onslaught we all know is coming.

[geardaddy]

13. You mean like this guy?

[mzteris]

22. lol -

yep, pretty much.

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[geardaddy]

23. Thanks!

:hi:

[rhiannon55]

3. You are spot-on, Wetzelbill

I agree with you 100%!

But--from one rational person to another: Please put on your flame-proof suit! Even DUers are wacky on this issue.

And good luck!:popcorn:

[global1]

4. I Hear The NRA Is Already Drafting Plans For A Back To School Gun Sale......nt

[meldroc]

5. Yep. When you end up a situation like that, the reptile brain takes over.

I'm talking about the brain stem & cerebellum - the small bits in the back of the brain. The cerebral cortex, the big part where we get all these things like reason, logic, language, etc. gets short-circuited.

At that point, your thought process boils down to fight or flight. That or freeze up like a deer in headlights.

Police who've been in firefights won't remember how many shots they fired - they might not even remember firing the gun. They might just remember the perp bringing up his arm, with something in it that looked like a gun, then the next thing they know, their own gun is empty, the perp's on the ground with a surprisingly few holes in him, because most of his shots missed, and they're wondering what the hell just happened.

All this macho crap people talk about - like rushing the shooter, or doing a cool, calculated two shots to the torso, one to the head - your reptile brain isn't going to grok that. If you're lucky, and you've trained to the point where shooting is instinctive, you'll end up with the situation in the last paragraph. Otherwise, you're just going to freeze, or run like hell.

[Bright Eyes]

6. Agreed

Large number of armed students with concealed weapons...can't imagine ANYTHING going wrong

[raccoon]

7. K&R. I totally agree. When you have lots of volatile people carrying guns,

then the country has gone COMPLETELY to hell.

[bleedingheart]

8. I am still trying to comprehend people who would wear multiple coats

and shoot at one another with birdshot....

that is just jawdropping stupid....

and I thought my hunting relatives were kind of dumb going off to the wilderness to get drunk and climb tree stands....get drunker in the tree stand...pee off the top...take a nap ...climb down and watch TV and get even more buzzed...and all the while they had rifles at the ready to shoot deer...(like that ever happened)...

[ehrnst]

9. People with handguns usually "only think from the wrist down" in crisis

As I was taught in self defense. I was told that often, if you don't have a gun you have a tactical advantage over someone holding a gun, because they are not as vigilant or alert - it can make them cocky and falsely assured.

Better to take a good self defense class than spend the money on some firearm that could be used to kill you.

[eppur_se_muova]

10. Is there some reason people couldn't look into NONLETHAL weapons instead?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/05/MNGUHMJEO51.DTL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_foam

Incapacitate, don't kill.

ETA: Has NO ONE yet argued that "you know, if just one of those kids had had a Taser ..." ??

[spoony]

37. Dunno about Virginia but

here in Michigan it's illegal for a civilian to buy or possess a Taser, or a stun gun. Yep, they'll let you carry a pistol but not a stun gun, lol. Plus Tasers may be implicated in some deaths. And the problem I've seen with pepper sprays is that you wind up getting everyone in the area, and that shit is nasty. Talk about innocent unintended victims, damn.

[-..__...]

55. Why?

:shrug:

A pine box and 6' hole in the ground is less expensive than a trial and imprisonment.

[Gregorian]

11. Here's another scenario.

It's the same situation, except now half of the class all have guns. The police run into the room. Who is the shooter? They point at the real shooter who is also pointing at the other people. Who is the shooter?


One thing is basic here. Guns are power.


Do we want people with more power than the rest of us running around? And I say this from the perspective of a bicycle rider. Cars are also power. And it's nearly the exact same situation. And explosion in a barrel, with a slug that moves. But the slug in the car is the piston. Just yesterday I had another encounter with a car. It seems that when a biker is going at a speed that is similar to the car, the driver feels threatened. And they cut you off. Another situation where we are armed with more power than we should have, in comparison to a NATURAL STATE.

In a natural state, of course there is still killing. A stick, a stone, etc. But let's get real. I'm talking about equality here.

[underpants]

12. Oooh good point

but the standard line goes that one of the John Waynes would have dispatched the original shooter by that point and of course no one else would get weird or freaky and start shooting up the place, right?

[Gregorian]

15. The other shooters don't have the original shooters motives.

Sure they might after the shooting begins. But I highly doubt it.

I ride solo through forests on a bicycle. I've encountered bears, and the largest mountain lion I've ever seen. Screw it. Bad example.


The original shooter was ready to kill. Even those defending themselves don't have the same level of intent. "Is there a hell? Will I be the next to be shot?" I think it's a valid argument. And I don't believe the John Wayne films reflected any kind of reality. Only exaggerated stories of something similar to what we're discussing here. And outlaw in his last throes.

I don't think there's a single argument that can validate it's stance on arming people. It goes against every sentiment of being human, and every religion, and common sense.

Well, speaking of riding. It's time to go to the redwoods! I'm off!

[krispos42]

40. Everybody who's honest drops their guns and freezes

If the shooter doesn't, a lot of SWAT officers will have him in their sights. If he does, the cops arrest everybody and sort it out later. And when 30 students all say "the Korean kid with the sour face was the shooter"... he's off to jail.

There is no real way this tradgedy could get much worse, really. And that is very sad indeed.

[davsand]

14. I'm every bit as worried about a stray shot from a bystander as one from the gunman.

In a situation like you are talking about I'd be sweating getting shot by some hyper-excited bystander along with getting shot by the gunman. Sure as hell, I'd be in a place where they all got freaked and started blasting at random and I'd get shot by a savior.

I made this same point on other time on here about the scenario of being in a Walmart and somebody taking a would be robber out with a gun from the sporting goods section. I'd be sweating how good of a shot the other people are not JUST the robber...



Laura

[pampango]

41. I also found an article about shootings at Appalachian School of Law

in Grundy, VA in 2002 and Pearl High School in Pearl, MS in 1997. In the former the gunman had killed three and wounded three, when he was confronted by two students who had retrieved guns from their cars and subdued him. In the latter instance the gunman killed two and wounded seven students before he was subdued by an assistant principal who had gotten his gun from his car. In neither case did the "good guys" have to shoot. They subdued the gunman without having to.

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-kill...

Obviously, neither of these scenarios apply directly to Virginia Tech since no students or professors had the opportunity to run to their cars and retrieve any weapons, but provide food for thought on limiting the carnage done by gunmen. (BTW I have never owned a gun and have no plans on acquiring any, so I would not be the guy who would be stepping up in a crisis to confront a gunman with a weapon of my own.)

[haele]

72. There's several commonalities in those situations that might not be in others -

In both your situations, it seems the gunman either wasn't suicidal or was getting tired of his "vengeance" or what other sociopathic mental state he was in. Otherwise, just getting the drop on the gunman would not have stopped him; he would have turned and begun shooting - either killing the confronters or getting everyone involved with a gun battle. The gunman was willing to give up without further fight.

The other commonality is that it seems that the others with guns were confident enough to just show and not shoot - which rather goes against almost everything I was taught when I was being trained for my alternate duty as Shore Patrol/Security/Boarding Party member. If you pull it, be prepared to shoot - and shoot for the largest mass.

I have been in a training situation with some other supposedly trained people where two of our small group of six pulled their guns in a situation we weren't "supposed to" and then panicked, shooting paint pellets (luckily) at everything that moved. Including me - positioned on flank and retreating to get out of the way - and our point man who got hit in the back. Pellets hurt at close range; I was bruised in the shoulder near my neck, right boob, and hip - and probably would have been killed if they were using real bullets. Our trainer, a SWAT veteran, told us that once someone shoots at you, it's very hard - for anyone - to fight the urge to return fire as quickly and as scattershot as you can. Especially if you don't know exactly where the bullet came from.

Haele

[RamboLiberal]

16. I know a number of people who I would trust with a handgun

and whom I would trust to have training and presence of mind to take out the gunman and not innocent bystanders. And they are not police. Some are ex-military, all are civilians who train all the time with their handguns (many also train with shotgun and combat rifles). These are people who have been shooting for a long time. They compete almost weekly in handgun competitions (USPSA and IDPA). Many have also taken tactical gun courses. And they stress safety, safety, safety with gun handling. Don't handle a gun safely around these guys and gals and you are going home for the day, you're not shooting with them.

Sorry but I feel most DU'ers who jump in these threads have very little experience with guns in tactical situations and have spent little time on the range and if they have it was with target plinking standing still. BTW, the civilians I speak of have tons more training with their guns than most police. I think many police are changing to get more practical training but at least in the past most only went to the range a once or twice a year to qualify and stood shooting at still targets to do so.

I feel if I took the time and training to get a CCW then I should be allowed to carry. And that doesn't mean I'd be paranoid about being in the classroom and needing the gun. I was more paranoid when I took night classes and had to go to the parking garage in an iffy area after 9 at night. No I didn't carry then and couldn't have anyway by the college rules, but there was a night I did slip a martial arts weapon in my bookbag one night (yes I had training with it) when I couldn't get a parking spot in a good area.

If I had been in that classroom unarmed I'd have probably done what the students did and that was to seek cover and play dead. The one thing I hope I would never do is to line up or kneel down and wait for the fatal shot. I hope I would at least fight back.

[Tesha]

18. Most people who will have guns will have very little experience in a...

> Sorry but I feel most DU'ers who jump in these threads
> have very little experience with guns in tactical situations...

Most people who will have guns in this Brave New Armed World
of ours will have very little experience in a tactical situation
as well. And you can be *SURE* that they will screw-up, hurting
themselves or innocent bystanders at least as often as they
kill the killer.

But hey, lots of people here at DU seem to have some kind of
Death Wish so "Arm up, everybody!"

Tesha

[Pavulon]

29. I have a ccw

had a combat mos (not in combat). have good judgment and am confident I am not going to shoot up a room full of people. I keep mine because it makes transporting a sidearm easier. Laws vary state to state, except for ccw.

Until the recent Gulf War most line infantry units did not have actual combat experience. However training is effective in conditioning peoples response.

This is all moot. I would bet the farm you could start to carry concealed and never ever draw a weapon in anger.

You will not be shot. You will die like most Americans, by the statistical killers. Heart disease, cancer, accident, etc.

[benEzra]

68. Most CCW'ers have more shooting experience than the average

urban police officer, I suspect (speaking of regular officers, not SWAT). All the CCW license holders I know are very experienced shooters, and one is a former municipal police officer himself. Most PD quals are ridiculously easy; those that aren't are probably the exception rather than the rule.

I do have an NC CCW license; to qualify, I had to pass a Federal and state background check, a mental health records check, an FBI fingerprint check, take a class on NC self-defense law, pass a written test on NC law at the sheriff's office, pay lots of $$$ in fees, AND demonstrate shooting proficiency with a handgun. I've been a student of guns and self-defense law for going on two decades now, and you have nothing to fear from the likes of me.

FWIW, a good OC spray (NOT department-store crap) is a very good thing to carry; a gun is an absolute last resort, usable only under a set of very limited circumstances. I think anyone licensed to carry a gun should also carry a good can of OC.

[Wetzelbill]

20. yeah see I know people like that too

people who have done serious shooting, professional type stuff etc. Even people trained in tactical situations have problems. You throw any of those people in a combat situation they wouldn't even hit their intended target half the time. That's not a high rate. Maybe a few of the people I know tactically trained I would somewhat trust in a situation like that but I'd be wary of anybody. And those people competing in handgun competitions and so on, how many have ever been in a Virginia Tech type situation? Even special forces soldiers kill each other in friendly fire incidents, nobody is infallible, and I don't feel I could ever trust just about anybody, let alone have a perfect storm of extremely well-trained trustworthy people whipping out guns and the same place at the same time.

[Javaman]

17. Sorry couldn't get past the kitten thing. that's fucked up.

that guy needs serious help before he starts shooting people.

[EFerrari]

19. No, let's throw guns at this. Maybe some oil and marketing, too.

That's worked so well for us so far. :sarcasm:

We really, really, really don't want to deal with mental health in this country. And we really, really, really don't know shit about building community or why that might be a more powerful move than throwing guns, oil or marketing at every damn problem that comes down the pike.

[The Doctor.]

21. Whereas in reality, it's more likely to go down this way;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

[IronLionZion]

24. Then the cops come and shoot whoever is holding a gun

because when there's a shooting with dead bodies lying around, whoever is holding a smoking gun is potentially a bad guy, even if he's not. In that situation, the cops will shoot first and ask questions later and they will shoot to kill.

[Sanctified]

27. Don't cops usually say.

Put your Gun Down before they start blazing away?

[IronLionZion]

44. Snipers don't say very much. nt

[meldroc]

52. If the reptile brain doesn't take over...

[benEzra]

75. On TV, yes. In an active-shooter situation, probably not.

which means you have to use your head. Don't just pull a gun and stand there waving it around; take a defensive position, and be prepared to reholster or drop the gun as soon as you see a uniform. Plainclothes police have to deal with precisely the same issues, and it's something CCW licensees have to think about.

[Irreverend IX]

30. Have any examples of that happening?

If a mass shooter was shot by his intended victims, they would probably put their guns away by the time the police arrived. I've never heard of real-life cases where your oft-quoted scenario happens, probably because cops have been extremely slow to respond to most mass murder incidents.

[IronLionZion]

43. Any examples of a mass shooter being shot by his intended victims?

it hasn't happened yet, but it is something to think about. How are the cops supposed to know who is who? Anyone with a gun is a potential threat and needs to be neutralized before he shoots anyone else.

[pampango]

47. See post 41 above.

Not exactly a mass shooter being shot by intended victims, but of being restrained by others.

[marions ghost]

25. excellent post...

this is my main argument against those who push for the average person to carry guns for self-defense. They never acknowledge that most people cannot handle guns in this type of situation. It's an unworkable
solution and I really don't think it comes from wanting to help others in any real sense.

[DarkTirade]

26. The stats I heard last on police gun fights

are that the average two-way gun fight between a police officer and a suspect with a gun is as follows: (note, this is just the average, obviously there are exceptions)
Two men.
Ten feet apart.
Each fire three rounds.
Only one of the six rounds actually hits its intended target.

I don't know how old those stats are, but still, you have to realize that guns are not just (if you'll forgive the accidental pun) as easy as 'point and shoot'.
The only weapon I ever carried was back before I had a car, when I was working nights and having to walk home at three in the morning. It was not a gun. It was a manrikigusai chain, basically a three-foot long chain with little weights at the end. Made to knock people out, with more reach than a knife. And the chain looks a bit like a wallet chain.
I figured, if somebody has a gun, I won't have a chance to pull out my own weapon anyway so I might as well cooperate, or run the hell away. If they have a knife, then I can pretend I'm pulling out a wallet with a chain, and they won't know otherwise until I smack 'em in the head with it. :evilgrin:
That, and as I said, it's made for knocking people out. Not making big holes in them. A bruise or even broken bone can be fixed. Death can't.

[conscious evolution]

28. Throw cell phones

laptops,hell even desktops.
One person doing so wouldn't do much before getting blown away but imagine thirty or so people launching cell phones and whatever else they could get their hands on.

[Irreverend IX]

31. That's not quite how it went down for Damon Wells...

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/04/cleveland_man_caught_in_gun_co.html

Sounds like your neighbors are inbred morons. I don't know them, but I do know that most of the more hardcore civilian shooters (the demographic that tends to take the effort to get CCW licenses) are a lot better-trained than cops.

And carrying a gun is "wimpy?" I guess wearing seatbelts and bike helmets is too. Firearms are the ideal equalizer in personal combat, the most effective self-defense implements available. If you're armed with a knife, or martial arts knowledge alone, you're at quite a bit more risk if you end up in a fight.

Of course no sane person wants to end up in a fight, but if the worst happens then it pays to be prepared. You don't have to, just as you can ride in a car or bike with no protection, and many people do so without coming to harm. But if you ever end up in a situation where you need a gun, or a helmet, or a seatbelt, you'll wish to hell you had one.

Are people who carry concealed dangerous and insecure? If they are, it doesn't seem to be adversely affecting their relationship with the law. A Florida study conducted after that state started allowing CCW found that of more than 300,000 license holders, five were charged with using guns in a crime of violence, a rate more than 870 times lower than that of the general population, even lower than the rate of violent gun crimes among cops. Concealed carry with a permit is legal in all but two states now, and by all accounts the permit holders are among the most law-abiding members of society.

You also throw out the strawman that pro-RKBA people want "everyone armed." We just want those people who have the competence and dedication to obtain a CCW permit to be able to carry. If CCW was permitted on university campuses, statistically only one in every few hundred people would be able to carry on campus. But one armed person could have made a big difference in the VT incident. They certainly couldn't have made it much worse; the VT shooting was about as bad as a mass murder could possibly get.

[Wetzelbill]

32. yeah anybody who is so insecure that they have to

carry a gun with them at all times is a wimp. Wearing a seatbelt isn't even the same thing, that's common sense. Practically shitting yourself out of fear while you go to the grocery store unless you have a gun isn't common sense, it's just being a chickenshit.

If somebody got in a fight with me and tried pulling out a gun in the middle of it they'd be waking up in a hospital. Firearms are worthless in personal combat, unless, you're the person who pulls it out first before a fight even starts. I'm a former combat athlete, competed internationally, so trust me, I'd love for some guy to stop fighting and try to pull a gun out. They'd never get the chance to do it. It's probably the least effective self-defense implement, certainly one of the least practical. It's only good if you can get the chance to use it. Good luck with that ever happening.

Even the most well-trained people only hit their targets less than 50 percent of the time in a combat situation. That includes hardcore civilian shooters. Not very good odds. And for every Damon Wells you have about 100,000 more accidental shootings. Sure, let some people who are qualified carry guns, fine. I don't care. But it's no strawman that there are people out there who want everybody armed. I live in a state where you have had legislators trying to make it easy for anybody to strap on a gun, even in bars. You yourself may not think like that, but some people do. They believe in wild militia bullshit and it's some pretty ugly stuff.

Also, I never mentioned anything about my neighbors.

[Irreverend IX]

33. "Firearms are worthless in personal combat?"

I guess that's why cops carry them. In my years of martial arts study, people have repeated to me over and over that unarmed combat styles are fun to train and spar with, but in a real fight you want to use any weapon you can get your hands on. Or as one teacher said, "The only reason you should fight unarmed is if you're naked in the middle of an empty room with one foot nailed to the floor." Knife fighting is a gamble where the winner usually ends up taking a severe wound even as they deliver a fatal blow to their opponent, and nonlethal weapons are unreliable. In a real life-or-death encounter, a gun is the best choice to quickly incapacitate an opponent without incurring injury yourself.

If you're a martial arts champ you may be able to incapacitate someone who pauses for the slightest moment, but most thugs are thankfully unable to do this. I can think of two examples off the top of my head where CCWers killed attackers who were beating them senseless. One was the first CCW shooting in Texas, where a truck driver beaten nearly to death killed his attacker with one shot, then the second was the incident in Seattle where a schizophrenic man knocked down a CCW holder, started beating him and took a .357 in the gut.

In any case, I don't know what your state legislators are up to but I see no reason for passing undue restrictions on one of the most law-abiding populations in the country. Gun-free zones are nothing but free-fire zones for criminals and psychos.

[Wetzelbill]

35. Yeah I just made a few calls

CCW aren't that tough to get, several of my neighbors from back home have them. None of those guys I would trust in a firefight situation. Now maybe in some states they are harder to get, but being a CCW holder doesn't mean you are as qualified as you were making it sound. You made it sound as if being a CCW holder made you better trained than a police officer. Maybe some people from years of using guns, being in the military etc, are but it is a huge stretch to say that the type of person who would get one is automatically well-prepared for a combat situation.

Oh sure, in some cases people can get off a shot while getting beaten. But you said it's the most ideal type of defense, and it's not. It's ideal if you want to get the shit kicked out of you going for a gun and then hope that sometime in between you getting beat up and either going unconcious or dying you happen to get off a lucky shot. But going for a gun isn't pausing for the slightest moment. Depending on where it is and how nervous a person is and the duress they are under it can almost be an impossible task to get a gun out. Hey, I'm not saying people who are qualified shouldn't have concealed weapons in certain instances, but it's not nearly as hard to qualify for one as you are pretending to make it out to be. And I don't like the idea of having an armed society like that. It's not a case that everybody who qualifies to be a CCW holder is a highly trained individual, plenty of yokels can still carry concealed weapons. And that is dangerous. If even the most highly trained military and police professionals have difficulty hitting a target in combat situations then I guarantee you the average CCW holder will be way more dangerous.

[zanne]

45. You're singing my song!

How paranoid do people have to be when they can't leave their homes without a gun?

[-..__...]

57. It's a foolish person who brings a knife to a gunfight.

Whatever you claim your physical prowess to be, it had to come from years of training and practice.

The same applies to training and practice with firearms. If one has the time and desire to reach a certain level of expertise, it can be done; there are some scary IDPA and fast draw shooters out there (and by scary I mean how in the hell did they do that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giSaNiQ-Wb4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnu4P0Y-JAk

Even though these guys are shooting under a controlled environment (and oftentimes with specialized equipment), I have little doubt that they would have any (if little) trouble applying their skills in a real world/street situation.

Only a fool would believe that an unarmed response is the best/wisest solution to an armed assailant.
And if he's somehow successful in subduing the assailant... it only proves he's a lucky fool.

[Gormy Cuss]

34. Thank you Bill.

It's the way I feel about it too.

[spoony]

36. "if I had a weapon on me and tried to pull it out "

"I would have been shot to death. It was too fast, the people already had the gun pointed at me..."

Well you'd have to be a pretty gigantic bloody idiot to try to pull a gun with a barrel in your face, eh?

And where's the cite for this 50% accuracy number?

Even if it were true, quite frankly the only cop I've ever seen with his gun out had his finger on the trigger holding the thing at his side. I didn't think then was a great time for me to give him a safety lecture, but needless to say it's considered a faux pas (even moreso with Glocks, no safeties you know). I've also seen video of a SWAT member, presumably even better trained, squeeze a round off into the sidewalk doing the same stupid thing. I honestly imagine that anyone going through a good concealed carry class would have at least as much, if not more, safety training than cops get.

[Wetzelbill]

42. It's actually forty percent

"In real life, police officers -- trained to fire in the heat of battle -- hit their intended targets only about 40 percent of the time, according to University of South Carolina criminologist Geoffrey Alpert, an expert in police shootings.

"You can train all day in simulated situations ... and you think you can hit a target. But it comes right down to it and someone is pointing a gun at you, and it just doesn't happen," he said."

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=22268

[Blue_Tires]

38. k+r

[Sanctified]

39. I may be wrong...

but don't most normal people run away not towards an individual who is methodically shooting people down? And if people are running away from the shooter wouldn't that mean anyone who is armed would have a clear shot at him?

[jmg257]

46. Interesting musings, but some details lacking, and some BS intertwined.

1) Cho had his Glock for all of what - 5 weeks? But this wacko fuck, with sick motivation, good planning, and poor laws, made certain he would be the only shark in a busy gold fish bowl for a loong time. Had he even ever shot a gun before before? - 5 weeks he had one! He was apparently not some well-trained right wing NRA gun nut. He was a psycho who blamed the rich and everyone else for his problems - and he took it upon himself to provide payback. He locked himself in, he had NO fear of reprisal, and he took his time and executed HELPLESS people!

2) When you are locked in that bowl with Cho, are you relying on that cop huffing and puffing down the street to come save you? How 'bout the one taking cover behind the tree? Are you counting on Cho's good will (??) to spare you, or HIS capabilities with a weapon? Are you dialing 911 as the rounds are flying? BULLSHIT! This incident shows again you can NOT rely on anyone BUT YOURSELF! I NEVER hear responsible gun owners tell ANYONE to "just go buy a gun and stick in your waisteband so you can save the world". We ALWAYS advocate training, practice, safety, more practice, and a realistic attitude and awareness. Those who are too inept or irresponsible? Who don't have the balls to take guns, or even their own protection, seriously?...Stay away from them! But those willing to learn, to practice, to be responsible, to stay sharp? Have at it - it is NOT that tough!

3) I was a gun nut before I was a cop, while I was a cop, and remain one after I was a cop. I shot ALL THE time, and still shoot ALOT; as did many others in my dept. We were lucky - we had a GREAT sergeant, and lots of ammo. We loved shooting. However, MOST cops are not shooters. Most cops are not special! Most do not have "special training", but maybe 40 hours of theory, 40 hours of range time, and then semi-annual qualification. Sure - I would rather rely on cops then the bad guy - no doubt about it, I know they will bring fire power, I know they have some training, and most do a great job - willingly. Overall though - I would 1st rather rely ON ME! I KNOW I can shoot well. I KNOW I can move and hit mulitiple targets quickly. I KNOW I can draw from concealement and hit what I aim at quickly, with either hand. I KNOW I will go to the range a few times a month, practicing with various weapons and various scenarios. I do NOT know for SURE about anyone else.

4) Any one who isn't honest enough to see the dangers in this world, who doesn't understand the randomness of 1.4 MILLION violent crimes, who thinks stricter gun laws will prevent events like VT & will keep him from being a victim, who isn't willing to do what it takes to be proficient to provide practical defense for himself and his family - is delusional. There are plenty of other sick fucks out there - ALL learning from the likes of Cho. Anyone who so stupidly calls ANYONE else justifiably concerned and willing to provide for their own best security "wimpy" is an ass. Having the balls and the brains to take responsibility for your own defense and the defense of your loved ones isn't some mystical he-man trait to be feared - it should be admired and embraced - especially if YOU are willing to do what it takes to survive such incidents - your life, your kid's lives, your friends' lives, may very well depend on it - and they'll thank you for it.

You are right - guns alone are NOT the solution - and it is NOT simple. Would I trust EVERYONE with a gun? No - or - Hell no! Too much self-responsibility for those who obviously don't like that; and those who think themselves too inept, and so thinks all others must be inept too - probably are indeed incapable of handling it. Yes, a CC holder is usually reactive - but so what? He WILL/MAY die anyway! Die, or more likely, live fighting at least! And yes, shit happens - the armed unknowing good guy might be the 1st one taken out...or he might NOT be. He could be THE one to realize what is going on, and from behind cover fire through the classroom doorway, taking Cho out with 3 quick rounds to the chest, before he gets very far into his massacre. We will never know in this case - but it HAS happened plenty of times before, and could have happened in others.


Here it is - YOU rely on whatever magic your imagination can dream up to protect you and yours. For me? NO THANKS!!! I will rely 1st and foremost on the one I can count on most - on me. All those of us who ARE capable ask, is to give US that same choice, allow US the capability for putting up a worthwhile defense; and NO STUPID laws that restrict us but let Cho reign free. Not only is it a Right we all have, it is reasonable, and sensible.

[Wetzelbill]

48. no bullshit at all intertwined

I never said anything about stricter gun laws. I just said that making it easy for people to be armed in a situation like that is not a good idea. I'm not even against somebody who is a qualified CCW holder having a gun in that situation. But I also don't want any jerk to be able to get a CCW easily. Having a gun in that situation doesn't guarantee anything. Whose to say some guy would take out Cho with three rounds to the chest and prevent a massacre, that's pure speculation and an unlikely occurrence. All I'm saying is it's not the solution. It's a rather small part of an overall problem.

I'm not talking about somebody taking responsibility for their defense. I'm flat out saying anybody who is so fearful of society that they have to carry a gun on their person 24/7 is a wimp. And they are. Hell, I've used a gun before. My family members are all gun owners. They keep them in their homes, sometimes in vehicles. But none of them are so insecure that they can't drive into town and have a cup of coffee without a gun strapped to their leg. It takes no balls or brains whatsoever to be scared of your own shadow. See, I'm not a big guy, but I'm a former combat athlete, and actually plan on coming out of retirement to compete again. So maybe I'm just secure in my own ability to defend myself. But I'm not dreaming up any magic. I flat out know I can defend myself. And I have a brother who is an MMA fighter, and he's had a gun pulled out on him in a fight, and pretty much shoved it up the guys ass. Good luck if you're already getting your ass kicked if you decide to stop and fumble around for a gun. It might cost you your life. Sure, you might get lucky and somehow get it and sqeeze off a shot, but that's not practical, and it's a big if. Luck has more to do with surviving situations like that than anything. If somebody gets the drop on you and you attempt to reach for a gun, you'll get shot and killed. A gun only works if you are already aware of a situation and can pull it out before anything happens. Yeah sure in a VT like situation when a gunman is shooting at other people, a person probably could pull out a gun and figure out what to do, but that stuff doesn't happen often. Has there every been an instance when a civilian has ever done that in a shooting? And who could say for sure how they would react in that situation. I could say that when Cho was reloading or had his back turned or something, that I would've jumped the guy, but who knows? Could I have physically handled the kid, well yeah, but I might have been so out of it I wouldn't know what to do. Same with somebody who has a gun. You don't know what you'd do in that situation. Nobody really does. It's all a big argument over speculation, and it's pretty unlikely speculation at best.

[davsand]

49. Bill, I think maybe some of them might have had time to draw a gun.

I have been reading over what you've said here, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying. For most people, carrying a gun in a holster or (even worse!) a purse really is worse than useless in a personal defense situation. "Quick Draw" is not associated with shooting accuracy, and fumbling to even get the gun out is time spent that will probably get you killed...

Something that does occur to me, however, in reading over this discussion, is the realization that if Cho took time to re-load (and from what I've seen he went thru a bunch of clips that day) anyone who WAS carrying would have had time to get a gun out and get the safety off. I remember reading about that one Prof who died blocking the door. You have to know that if he was aware of what was going down and motivated enough to try to keep Cho out, he probably would have had time enough to draw a gun and get ready to shoot it BEFORE Cho hit the room. I have no idea if his personal conscience would have allowed him to use a gun--but I am saying that tactically he could have probably pulled it off. He would have had time to decide how to respond and time to prep for it.

For that matter, once shots were fired, my guess is that more than a few folks would have had gun in hand had they had them...

Again, I will stress that I do not trust most folks to shoot accurately in a stress situation. Facing down somebody with a gun is a whole lot different than shooting at a target on a range. Most people (not ALL, but most) are not equipped to deal with that given the society we live in and the level of "civilization" we currently enjoy.

Regards,


Laura

[Wetzelbill]

50. oh yeah

Definitely, I briefly touched on that some could have had time to get a gun out, for sure. How it would have worked out exactly is hard to say.

[jmg257]

59. This isn't some Jedi power. It is NOT that hard to accomplish.

Are you behind? Probably. But we are talking 1/10s of seconds. 1st off - anyone too close gets the gun taking away, and anyone far enough away has to be almost as fast, just as accurate, and also will have to react.

Bottom line - YOU ARE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY!!!! Know what you are capable of - have some frigging confidence in yourself - and at least give yourself a damn chance...you MIGHT die fighting. You WILL die doing nothing.

[benEzra]

74. Cho was shooting for NINE MINUTES...

with gunfire echoing through the building, with the doors chained shut. Yes, somebody would have had time to access a gun.

[jmg257]

58. Fair enough - but still 2 points of contention.

1) that a civilian properly armed and somewhat trained is "unlikely" to be able to take out someone like Cho....now THAT is speculation! We do however KNOW what happens when NO ONE is armed - THEY ALL DIE!...Helplessly. Plenty of civilians have come out on top - it has been done before, and it happens a lot - as some here posted, and as it is described monthly in mags like American Rifleman and Combat Handguns - civilians surviving when they most likely otherwise wouldn't. And then we also hear from others who have been thwarted from doing ANYthing but cower by some stupid law which required they be disarmed - and its heartbreaking.

2) Not everyone is a combat athlete, or an MMA fighter. Shit, I am pretty big and have some skill but you sound like you could possibly kick my ass (or your brother!). But what we are discussing is a struggle of life and death - some BAD zombie trying to impose his will on you or yours - probably armed, maybe with nothing to lose except his life. This is not, nor should it be, some cock-fight to see who has fighting skill and who doesn't. Its survival. Does it happen to an individual often? No. Is it possible? Definetly. That is why I try to carry a gun whenever I can, and why my old man with his bad heart and bad hip does, and why my smaller weaker wife does. You act like it is such a struggle to put the gun in the holster and throw a jacket over it - THAT's the easy part! The hard part is all the things that lead up to being prepared, and of course the incredibly long few secs when reality comes knocking. Now, if I was clairvoyant and KNEW without a doubt nothing would happen at that village coffee shop? Hey no sweat - the gun can stay in the safe...and I probably wouldn't need seat belts most times I drive either. Until I have that power? I will take my chances being armed, and always hope I never need it.

[Wetzelbill]

66. no that's cool

I understand what you're getting at. My biggest problem is you get all these political opportunists who jump up and start talking tough about how the students at VT should have rushed Cho and that if they were there and had guns etc, things would have been different. I just don't trust most people to have a gun in that situation. And there is so much to more to the problem, that I hate when it rises up some big national debate where one side is all about guns and the other side says maybe guns aren't the answer, then everybody huffs around for a few weeks until it all blows over and does nothing about mental health care and other important aspects of the issue.

[MedleyMisty]

51. The guy who shot the kittens

better hope that I don't have a weapon on me if I ever meet him. Which I seriously doubt would ever happen. Just expressing my disgust and utter utter rage at people who hurt other species, especially cats.

[raccoon]

53. Yeah, that really bothered me too.

If he has an SO, they have my sympathy.

People who torture/abuse animals often "graduate" to do the same to people.

[jmg257]

60. See - now here is someone who shouldn't have a gun. WIlling to kill over kittens.

Although the point is agreed that animal abuse is usually the sign of a sick individual.

[JHB]

54. I brought this up with people after the Colin Ferguson thing...

...Ferguson being the guy who killed a number of people during a shooting spree on a Long Island Railroad car (including the husband and son of Carolyn McCarthy, spurring her to run for the House).

I know (from range shooting and paintball games) that if I try to fire quickly I have a tendency to pull to the right. So when every armchair crackshot started complaining "if the others had had guns...", I brought that up. If I'd been there, I can't honestly say if I would have hit Furguson, or everyone to the right of him (and I doubted most others would be any beter).

That argument actually managed to derail the more thoughtful ones (alas, the others just kept on going: I was dismissed as "a bad shot").

[AngryOldDem]

56. Unintentionally funny talking point....

...I heard from a pro-concealed carry person on Hardball last week. He said that if anyone at VT had had a weapon, chances were the carnage would not have been so bad. Anti-concealed carry person answers back, How so? Well, says the pro dude, there was a multiple shooting a few years back where the shooter was killed by someone carrying a gun. But, interjects the anti man, innocent people STILL died. Yes, says pro dude, but the shooter WAS ALSO KILLED! Ergo, everybody should be armed.

Uh...ho-kay. I'm totally sold on concealed-carry laws now.

[jmg257]

61. What's funny? That the shooter died before killing any others?

or that anti-gun laws wouldn't have prevented the murderer from killing in the 1st place?

[pampango]

63. There was an incident at a college in Grundy, VA in 2002

in which a shooter killed three and was stopped by two students who retrieved weapons from their cars. The gunman wasn't killed in this instance, though. He was restrained until the police got there, so the guy on Hardball must have been talking about another incident.

[SOteric]

62. Agreed.

My sweetheart is superlative marksman trained by the U.S. Marine Corps. I'd trust him with a weapon in a high stress moment, but not a lot of other people.

[Hidden Stillness]

64. The Words of a Witness at the Texas Restaurant Shootings

I think my "favorite" quote, if I can even put it that way, came from one of the victims of the mass shooting in the Luby's Restaurant, (I think that was the name), Texas, about 10 years ago or so, when this violent male hate-killer was targetting women, killing them and calling them all "vermin" as they died, etc. Another person in the restaurant hiding under a table, a male, was asked later the typical stupid question, "Why didn't you all jump the shooter when the guns were being re-loaded?" and the person explained that because these were automatic weapons being used, with clips full of bullets that just needed to be popped in and out within a couple of seconds at most--no time for anyone hiding to react or do anything--that, (and I think this was a pretty much exact quote, remembered), "There would have been no time to do anything but to stand up and present yourself as the next victim." Scary and horrible; what a complete trauma it must be for everyone there, even the ones who were not shot.

[Wcross]

65. The dead students probably felt differently.

Do you suppose they all said to themselves, "Gee I sure am glad the shooter is the only person here with a gun". "I sure am glad I have no way to protect my life today". If you have heard the survivors account they knew the guy was coming, why would that brave professor have tried to hold the door shut if he didn't know the shooter was approaching?
Maybe being unarmed and defenseless works for some people. I prefer to have the option of resisting random execution by a mad gunman. I qualified as expert in rifle and pistol every year of the four I was in the Marine Corps. I think its wonderful that you would rather not carry a handgun. I resent the fact that you feel you have the right to tell me what is best for me.

[Wetzelbill]

67. that's pretty creepy that you would presume to know how they would think

I never say anything about being unarmed and defenseless. I just say everybody being armed isn't the solution, and it isn't. Nor do I say that you yourself can't carry a handgun. You resent something I never said. I say in other replies that I think people should be able to carry a concealed weapon. Maybe it would have helped in this situation, maybe not. But few people are really trustworthy when it comes to firing a gun in the heat of a firefight. Not even Delta and Rangers are above friendly fire incidents. I say that if people are going to have concealed weapons that they better be damn sure qualified to have them. I don't know anything about you, are you so frightened of society that you feel the need to be armed at all times? Because I'm not. And sure I'll probably try to qualify to be a CCW holder at some point, I think it would be a good thing to do and to have. But that doesn't mean I live my whole life in fear and am so insecure that I'll need to strap on a gun just to walk across the street to the store. I don't live my life in fear like that, but I am aware of my surroundings and the people around me sure. I don't spend my life scared of a terrorist attack or anything like that either. I never shit myself over a color-coded alert or ran out and bought duct tape either. There were only 143 cases of justifiable homicide in the US last year. You're more likely to die of cancer or a heart attack than to be in a situation where you need a gun in a justifiable homicide situation. It's something to be aware of, but nothing to live your life in fear over.

[depakid]

69. "I know people who do stupid shit with guns all the time"

I think we know some of the same people....

[ends_dont_justify]

70. "all victories, from the mighty or weak, are all given to chance"

The worst of opponents can get lucky and take out a big strong warrior, so while it's impossible to say what would have happened, it's possible that with so many people involved it would have only resulted in more trauma. I won't compare some old RW douchebag with a mechanical heart to a 18+ year old, so it's possible they may have had something done. But...it isn't the place of the students, it's the place of the police. Everyone says we should focus on the killer or the victims...I say the real emphasis should be placed on why the law enforcement did NOTHING.

[MissMarple]

71. It's odd, I think, that people want their gun rights, but not the well regulated part.

They consider that to be the greatly feared "gun control". Many of these bozos have fantasies of having a dramatic hero moment, or even think they can form a clandestine "militia" to fight an out of control government, government takeover, or possible invasion.

How "Red Dawn" of them.

[aikoaiko]

73. People like me who carry just want the chance to save our lives should the SHTF

We know there are no guarantees. As a college professor I am prevented by law to carry my gun on campus. I've gone through the permit process, been checked out by the GBI, submitted my fingerprints, and waited three months. I've received training from police and practice as often as I can.

If someone like Cho comes into my class, I'd be one big target and nothing else. Bad things happen once in while and theres nothing wrong with being prepared.