Conservative Warrior: Missouri Baptist says "the secular world is dangerous to Christian souls"

[madfloridian]

No, there is nothing at all wrong with a "secular" world. In one of the word's most preferred meanings it simply means a layman, one who is not a member of the clergy.

Florida's gift to this more extreme wing of the Southern Baptist movement is Reverend Al Mohler, whom I have written about frequently here and will in the future. He is head of the Southern Baptist Seminary. Now in many SBC quarters there is a distancing from Al, just as there appears to be a distancing from the leader in this article from Missouri.

About Al Mohler.
Southern Baptist leader says deliberate childlessness defies God's will.

That is NOT normally Southern Baptist thinking at all. This thinking led Al Mohler to condemn birth control. This from the man who is head of the seminary training young minds to be ministers.

..."First, we must start with a rejection of the contraceptive mentality that sees pregnancy and children as impositions to be avoided rather than as gifts to be received, loved, and nurtured. This contraceptive mentality is an insidious attack upon God's glory in creation, and the Creator's gift of procreation to the married couple."

He also joined with Billy Graham and Pat Robertson to condemn Islam.

Now to a conservative warrior of Missouri. They are facing a battle there, just as other states will be.

Conservative Warrior:Baptist Leader in Missouri Decries Emerging-Church Movement

ST. LOUIS - For Roger Moran, the most powerful Baptist in Missouri, the past represents victory and personal grace.

...."He has spent nearly a decade building a political Baptist empire, one based on a conservative foundation that he put in place. But when talk turns to the future - specifically, the future of the Missouri Baptist Convention - Moran is suddenly an Old Testament prophet of doom. His target: a young band of moderate Christians that he believes is trying to steal back the convention, undercutting his empire. It's a growing movement he'd like to see disappear.

...."Resolution No. 8: On Holiness and Cultural Forces of Influence," was adopted by the Missouri Baptist Convention in the fall of 2004. It set out Moran's belief that the secular world was dangerous to Christian souls and was encroaching from more directions than ever before. Moran is not a minister, so unlike most church leaders, his power does not come from the pulpit. Instead, Moran's influence comes from his knowledge of the way the Missouri Baptist Convention is set up. During his revolution, Moran ensured his allies were strategically positioned to appoint other, like-minded Baptists to positions of influence within the convention.

Yes, that is about how it worked here as well.


J.B. FORBES/St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Roger Moran, center left, and his wife Ronna, to his right, pray with their children during a service at First Baptist Church in Troy, Mo., in March. Moran said he thinks the Missouri Baptist Convention is "on the brink of a civil war."

One movement he is especially upset about is Acts 29, a network of about 90 emerging churches across the country. One group in Acts 29 is this one.

The Rev. Darrin Patrick, pastor of the emerging church in St. Louis called The Journey, says Moran's kind of theology is only driving away young Christian leaders.

"When you're stricter than God about what he commands and permits, younger pastors are not going to play ball," Patrick said. "They're not going to take one for the denomination."

...."The Rev. David Johnson, pastor of Overland Baptist Church, said his board voted last year to cut its ties with the Missouri Baptist Convention after 58 years rather than have to deal with Moran's politics.

For curiosity I looked up the website for Acts 29. It looks very religious and very conservative to me, though it appears to be more moderate socially...not really "liberal" though. If Mr. Moran thinks this group is a threat to Christians or Christianity then I am really stunned and confused.

Acts 29 Network

[Canuckistanian]

1. The "secular world"? Do they think they're living in a different world?

I don't remember Christ living in a "different world" than the rest of his Jewish neighbors and relatives.

Why do these so-called "Christians" insist that only THEY know what's going on in the world, while removing themselves from it?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. Because...

Mr. Moran's message is not discernable from that of a cult.

[madfloridian]

4. Exactly right.

I am so sensitive to stuff like this since I saw it happen here. The SBC churches here starting taking on a Jerry Falwell attitude about a decade ago...only we did not realize it.

It was the Iraq war that woke us up.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

7. I am sure...

That my Southern Baptist grandparents are spinning in their graves. This crap has nothing to do with Traditional Southern Baptism. It has everything to do with a once-noble denomination being taken over by rainmakers, cult leaders, hucksters and used car salesmen.

[madfloridian]

15. My parents and grandparents could not have handled the change.

It would have hurt them to their core.

[Progressive_In_NC]

36. Because Christ said

"I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world." - Jesus

Jn 17:14-17 (NKJV)



"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." - Jesus

Jn 15:18-19 (NKJV)


There are many more quotes I can pull out, but the scriptures are quite clear. Although some of us interpret them a bit differently than others........surprise.

[19jet54]

38. Unto Caesar?

... and render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is Gods!

The problem is, they (Baptists) want it both ways - To serve money & God at the same time? They confuse the spiritual with the physical and enjoy degrading those who are not like them, who do not believe like them, who do not buy into their corrupt power trip and render submission to their earthly rule; especially pay them tithes(money).

Secular is a modern day term like "heretic" but unlike times of old, it is illegal to burn us at the stake. Take your historical pick of outcast words, Gentile, Sodomite, heretic, secular, unbeliever, democrat or just plain un-American. The tactics are the same, just like the BS they spew?

What did Jesus say, "You will know them by the fruit they bear, a thorn bush does not bear figs"! A wise saying no matter what you believe.

[baldguy]

3. They fear the truth.

[Skidmore]

31. It's not truth they fear. They fear their own temptation to excesses,

which would lead them astray and into hellfire if they indulge. And the pastors lose a really good source of income for not a whole lot of effort in life. Priedhoods throughout history have been notorious for corruption and leeching on society.

I have always said that these types of belief systems are gravitated toward by people who have trouble controlling their thoughts and appetites. The church functions as their frontal lobes.

[countmyvote4real]

5. Paper, Rock, Scissors = Truth, Myth, Ideology.

I can't sure how they line-up, but there is some equivalency here.

[OnionPatch]

6. I say we give them South Dakota

Then they can wall themselves off and isolate themselves from the rest of the thinking world.

(My apologies to anyone from South Dakota...I'm sure it's lovely.) :)

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. They don't deserve South Dakota.

Too much beauty there. There is plenty of land in the middle of Nevada that should suit them nicely.

Or maybe up on the top of Canada.

[Cha]

9. It is Lovely...The Lakota Indians

live there and I'm sure they don't want them or does any other spiritual person want them.

[wizstars]

20. No, give 'em a reservation in Texas--like, say, Crawford?? n/t

[hobbit709]

27. We got enough nutjobs here.

The last thing we need is more. A better place would be an uninhabited island in the middle of the ocean, far off the shipping lanes. Dump them there, let them attempt to build the kind of society they think is ideal from their standpoint, come back in ten years and see if anybody is still alive. Sort of like a REAL "Survivor"

[wizstars]

28. Point well taken. he11, let's give 'em a planet--Venus, maybe? n/t

[Hawaii Hiker]

23. Give them that new planet they just discovered,

it's only 20 light years away, LOL..Seriously, give them Utah, Kansas, & a couple other of the redest of the red states....

Just keep them out of California & Hawaii, LOL...

[Marr]

37. They've already got Heaven. I say we invite them to emmigrate immediately.

But I want to stay here, so I'd very much appreciate it if they'd try to make their Apocalypse personal.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Yeah. Mark my words, the next target after abortion is ALL legal contraception

starting with the pill, then onward.

People need to wake the fuck up about these fundy nutjobs and their theocratic agenda.

[noonwitch]

19. I disagree. Most protestants don't have issues with legal contraception, including fundies

Fundies don't have a problem with legal contraception-a lot of them use it until they feel they are ready to have children. They are just opposed to all sex outside of marriage as they define it.

As long as men sneak out on their wives to have sex with other women, there will be legal condoms.

[jdadd]

11. Just another conservative MORAN....

:rofl:

[formercia]

18. My thought exactly...

The Lord works in mysterious ways.....

[AJ9000]

12. Christian souls are dangerous to the secular (real) world is more like it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x739145

[spoony]

13. Aw, is your thread not getting enough attention?

Is that why you're spamming other threads with links to it? lol

[madfloridian]

14. I found an article about The Journey, a group in Acts 29

What a nice group it looks like. I think Mr. Moran has his priorities and sensibilities way way out of order.

Beer, Darrin Patrick & The Journey

Wow. Very interesting article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch about The Journey Church in St. Louis and their pastor, Darrin Patrick. It's called, ahem, "Beer and the Bible." Darrin is a friend and someone who I think is doing an unbelievable job pastoring. They are associated with the SBC as well as Acts29 (Picture credits to the StLP-D).

It seems, according to the article, that there are some frustrations in the Missouri Baptist Convention because they loaned The Journey money to buy a building and then found out some at The Journey drink (like Jesus). The Journey has a regular theology event called Theology at the Bottleworks where they discuss all sorts of issues, and yes, some drink a beer there.

Members of the congregation of The Journey, in St. Louis, sing at the beginning of the service.
( Sarah Conard | Special to the Post-Dispatch/P-D)

I remember my dad drinking wine before a meal. He always felt like he should be feeling guilty because he was a Baptist deacon. They were never supposed to drink. He explained to us that the other deacons did drink wine before meals also, but they had to keep it quiet.

I used to feel that way when I went to a high school or college dance. There was always a feeling of guilt that was instilled by my church, but then it was nothing like now. Now they are terribly intrusive.

[Ilsa]

16. I used to be uncomfortable having a glass of wine at a

restaurant bar. I wasn't supposed to drink, according to the values I grew up with. It took along time to shed those feelings.

[madfloridian]

17. Guilt about dancing as well.

I remember some of us would hang out at an ice cream shop, and we would dance to the jukebox music. My grandmother saw me there one day. She lectured me when I got home, and tried to sic my parents on me. They told her to mind her own business.

They said they trusted me. I never forgave her for that guilt trip.

Baptists have always been good at guilt.

[wizstars]

21. Do you know why Baptists don't have sex standing up?

They don't want anyone to think they're dancing!

:rofl:

[paparush]

22. The Rev Jim Jones came up with a solution to all their worries...

((I know that was harshly cynical..but I get so sick of white, middle class, Christians whining))

[Tanuki]

24. when did Billy Graham ever "join with Pat Robertson to condemn Islam"?

Perhaps you have confused him with his son Franklin.


I am pleased to read what you said about Southern Baptists in general distancing themselves from Mohler and other destructive people like the Missouri operative, who have done untold damage to the denomination and to society.

[madfloridian]

33. Thanks, I did mean Franklin.

I was going to put a comment to correct it, as it was too late to edit when I saw it. In fact, I believe Billy Graham showed a lot of understanding on the subject.

The site here kept going down after I discovered it, and I would get sidetracked about the comment.

I don't remember Billy Graham being condemning of Islam.

Not enough are seeing through Mohler yet, I fear. A church here split into conservative/moderate, and the people I respect the most left with the moderates. They left the ones behind whose vocabulary only includes wedge issues. I was proud of them.

[dogfacedboy]

25. If it's a dangerous place for Christian souls...

...maybe it would be better if they left, so as to protect their souls.

[Tanuki]

26. I agree--the Amish are a good example

of people who forsook the secular world and live their own values as they please without trying to ram them down everyone else' throats.

[guitar man]

29. good answer

I hear the fundies comparing the US to "Sodom and Gommorrah" all the time and using that as the reason to try and change the country "back to a christian nation". Huh???

If you read the whole passage, we find out that Lot and his family were instructed to GET OUT, not to try and change anything. Lot's wife looked back, probably upset that she had to leave the McMansion, Cadillac and the Thomas Kincaide paintings behind and got zapped into a pillar of salt for her greed.

Same goes for these people, they don't want to leave the relatively cushy safe comfort of the US,and they love to wallow in their material posessions, but they want everyone around them to conform to their stendards. Tough shit.

Actually, I think they would be happier somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Iran. All they would have to disagree on then is the name of God.

[porphyrian]

30. What do baptists know about Christianity? - n/t

[Taxloss]

32. He puts his hands in his pockets when he prays?

That's unconventionally casual. Or is it a Baptist thing?

[moggie]

34. He's probably feeling the Lord

[Marr]

35. The get out of it. Stop meddling in government and go polish your soul.