By making it personal, the Democratic Party will be playing with fire.

[mmonk]

Just saying. By calling Progressives tea baggers, Naderites, and not real Democrats, especially after the fake bait with a public option or Medicare buy ins, I would advise the party not follow that advice from their advisors. Their media people as well as some such as Emanuel are making a mistake IMO. These are the people that are there election after election and writing the platforms the elected ignore.

It needs to stop if they expect to hold on.

This is my personal opinion. The judgement that there is no breaking point because people "have no choice" is a risky position. Maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling I may not be.

[DJ13]

1. The DLC'ers are desperate to ram (Rahm?) this through

They dont care about the damage to the party, paying back the health insurers is all that matters.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

33. And this is why I can't take the OP seriously.

It's alright to lambaste one part of the party, but out of bounds to take on another? Really?

[AuntPatsy]

55. some people have trouble looking in the mirror, perhaps it is fear that will find

that they look eerily similar to one that find hard to look at....good response and very accurate, proof that there is a way to find a common ground but name calling and outright accusations without real facts is just not one of them..

[HuckleB]

2. Who called progessives "tea baggers, Naderites, and not real Democrats?"

Just curious.

I have been told that I am not a real progressive by some at DU, simply because I want HCR to pass despite the fact that I am a single payer advocate.

It happens. I got angry, but I let it go. There's no point in letting it bother me forever.

I do wonder about the 24-hour news cycle and the Internet, sometimes. It sure seems like name calling is more frequent nowadays.

[DJ13]

3. Maybe that explains why she's willing to side with teabaggers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7298148&mesg_id=7298148
Democratic Underground - Hamsher Proves She's Not Progressive - Violates Principles to Go On Fox - Democratic Underground

[HuckleB]

5. So some poster on DU is the representative of the Democratic Party?

Say what?

:shrug:

[Renew Deal]

12. Are you Jane Hamsher?

That isn't about the bill. That's about Fox and Hamshers hypocrisy.

[DJ13]

25. That isn't about the bill.

Bullcrap.

It has everything to do with her articles criticizing this bill by the bill's supporters.

[Renew Deal]

28. That's not the point of the thread.

The point is that she showed up on Fox.

[bvar22]

66. Please point out the hypocrisy.

Provide direct quotes.

OR

Eat your post.

Jane is NOT a Democratic Party Official.
She IS a private citizen.

[Renew Deal]

71. Here you go....

"Fox is not a news outlet, it’s an openly partisan opinion factory and the Democrats should not be legitimizing them (and allowing them to recruit Democratic viewers to propagandize to) by doing this."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7298148&mesg_id=7298148

[bvar22]

72. She was speaking about Democratic Party Officials,

and you KNOW that, but don't let that get in your way.
Jane's integrity is more intact than yours today.

[Renew Deal]

74. How do I "know" that?

That's not what she said. And if she thinks that's true for "officials" it should be true for her. She is an opportunist that is being used by Fox for their own purposes while she uses them for clicks. Her integrity is officially gone.

[bvar22]

85. I have never mistaken Jane Hampshire as a spokesperson for the Democratic Party.

If YOU have, well that is a personal admission of your lack of judgment and discretion, as if more evidence of that is necessary after your performance on this thread.

[mmonk]

4. I have heard it on TV. I've seen it written.

I'll return to this when I get back. I've got to step out for a moment.

[HuckleB]

7. I'm looking forward to the links you'll provide.

I'm sure they'll be links that show that high ranking Democrats have done all of those things?

Right?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

6. It's been all over GD and GDP for at least a week. Do a search. n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. Random posters on a private website aren't "The Democratic Party"

[HuckleB]

10. EXACTLY!

[EFerrari]

13. That's very true. But I sincerely don't have the heart or the wish

to go trolling for more slams out of the White House or their media outlets. I hope you understand that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

17. The OP specifically talks about the term "teabaggers" "Naderites" and "not real Democrats"

I have not heard any of those terms used by a Democratic official.

[EFerrari]

22. So calling Howard Dean irrational wasn't direct enough?

Okay.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

27. That's not what the OP said. The OP was attributing comments made by DUers to the entire Democratic

Party SPECIFICALLY the terms Teabagger, Naderiate and calls about not being real Democrats. None of those things has ever been said by a Democratic official.

[EFerrari]

30. Well, you may be literally right but it's a distinction without a difference

as far as I can tell.

[HuckleB]

18. I don't understand it, no.

You make a claim, back it up.

It's that simple.

If it's not a truthful claim, then the outrageous anger needs another explanation.

[EFerrari]

23. It looks like you misplaced your post

because it is entirely unresponsive. :)

[HuckleB]

9. Well, if it's everywhere, why can't you post a link?

What representatives of the party, representing the party, have done what the OP claims?

[Dr Fate]

19. Rahm & DLC types are disparaging towards the DEM base all the time.

I came up with this in just 5 seconds:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2650868


He never used the phrases "tea baggers, Naderites, and not real Democrats" like his followers at DU do, but the OP does have a point.

[HuckleB]

41. In other words, you got nothing.

[Dr Fate]

45. No- in other words, I posted a link where Rahm disparages & marginalizes the left.

It took me all of 5 seconds to find it.

[HuckleB]

47. He offered criticism.

None of it of the type in this OP.

Hello? Is anybody home?

[Dr Fate]

56. Rahm proposes a strategy where the left should be marginalized.

That was just the 1st link I found, in a 5 second search.

If you think that his a good idea, fine. I still think OP has a point.

You can hang on the exact phrases the OP used all you want if you think sematical gotchas will win the day for you-but I still think that DEM leadership disparages & marginalizes the DEM base at their own risk.

[HuckleB]

82. You are very good at rewriting what other people say to serve your need to rant.

But that's all you've shown.

[bvar22]

67. "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest ?"

Same thing.
Orders to the minions.

[HuckleB]

83. Same thing?

Nope. Try again.

[bvar22]

84. It was certainly enough to turn loose the Winged Monkeys.

*

[EFerrari]

24. And that was not my claim, although, there is a slam out of the WH

against the left, against progressives just about every week.

And if you are so intent on getting the information, find it yourself.

[HuckleB]

42. Well, then post these horrific slams.

[Skidmore]

52. You are going to take the poo flung by disruptors and label

the Democratic Party with it? Really?

[HuckleB]

53. Apparently.

If you got nothing, go with fiction, I guess.

[EFerrari]

65. Well, no. I said, lol, these comparisons were all over DU.

Unlike poo flingers, I try to be a little bit more careful. Really.

[Dr Fate]

11. Frank Schaeffer?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7293285

[HuckleB]

16. That's one high ranking representative of the Democratic Party.

:eyes:

[Dr Fate]

21. Would you say that Rahm or the DLC agrees with him, or disagrees with him?

Be honest.

Seems to reflect everything I've heard from DLC types for years.

Am I incorrect if I percieve the DLC & "centrist" DEMS leaders as agreeing with Schaffer's remarks about the liberal activists who supported Obama?

[HuckleB]

40. So you want to base your rant on assumptions?

How is that honest?

:rofl:

[Dr Fate]

44. I see that you failed to even answer the question- but nice rolly-laughy guy!

I think you know that this article relflects current DLC & Blue Dog type thinking.

If you dont know this, then you are ignorant.

[HuckleB]

46. Your question wants an assumption.

Do you not understand that you are trying to create something to get yourself worked up about?

That is silly!

SO, yes.... :rofl:

[Dr Fate]

50. It's fine with me if you want to pretend that the DLC, etc is respectful towards the Left.

It's also fine with me if you want to pretend that the article I posted does not mirror typical centrist DEM thinking.

I dont see how this game of pretend will help you in the long run, but by all means- pretend away!

[HuckleB]

51. I don't pretend.

Take your own advice.

[Dr Fate]

58. My turn to ask for a link now. Show me a link where Rahm is supportive of the Liberal DEM base.

You say you are not pretending when you maintain that centrist leaders like Rahm respect & support the Liberal DEM base.

Can you demonstrate that with examples? Do you have a link where Rahm seems to express the opposite of, or disagreement with Schaffer's description of liberal activists?

[HuckleB]

81. You sure are good at playing pointless games.

You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't waste on people who do such juvenile things.

Goodbye.

[Jamastiene]

86. Wow, one request for you to back up your claims and you're outta there.

Sounds to me like you are the one who cannot back up what you are saying.

[xchrom]

93. Those are really nice pants you have down

Around your ankles -- but could you
pull them up, please so we don't have to look
at those tatty worn underware?

[kenfrequed]

97. Right...

Except that the mission of the DLC since its incept was to free the democratic party from 'special interests' which they defined as: labor unions, minority groups, issue advocates, and environmentalists.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. There does seem to be an influx of wannabee Spiro Agnews and Joe McCarthys here lately.

All either describing "the left" as either dangerous or irrelevant. Or, both.

[Neecy]

20. It's the Enemy of the Day

And they post vicious slams over and over and over again, all singing from the same songbook, all attacking progressives until they turn on their next victim.

Kucinich, Dean, Maxine Waters, now they're on to Jane Hamsher. Anyone who doesn't take their marching orders directly from the administration gets trashed. It's as predictable as the sunrise.

[fascisthunter]

60. that's ok, because there are more of US than them

and no, I do not refer to DU members of the left. The people I talk about aren't even liberal, but moderate and they are sickened by what has transpired out of DC. Makes me wonder that the people who advise Obama want him to think there is nothing to worry about politically in order to get what they want out of him.

[Dr Fate]

62. That will be their hubris- their groupthink notion that only "the crazy left" opposes mandates.

Many independents, swing-voters & pro-reform moderates are not going to be on board with that- no matter who falsely compares it to car insurance.

[fascisthunter]

63. That's what I think as well

they should never have made us into their opposition, because that's what is happening right now.

[Dr Fate]

64. Marginalizing the left on purpose is an out-dated DLC strategy from the Grunge Era

It's so "90's" that you almost expect to see DLC guys wearing tribal tatoos, knit hats, flannel shirts, and long-short pants with combat boots.

The idea is that the "centrist" makes an argument that "DEM activists are just as crazy as the far right"- then supposedly, all of the moderates & swing voters will see that the centrist is somewhere in between, so he must be doing the right thing.

If you attack or oppose "the far left" then it makes the cnetrist "look more moderate."

So, they keep looking for their "Sister Soulja" moment to hang their hats on, but it never seems to come this time around.

Not gonna work this time- hardly anyone will be on board with mandates. I have not met a single person outside of DU who says it will play well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2650868

[Jamastiene]

87. Bingo.

They are looking for their "Sister Soulja" moment.

We've been there, done that. Not buying it this time.

[kenfrequed]

99. You would think...

That since the overwhelming majority of all conservatives oppose HCR in any form that the last thing you would want to do strategically would be to advocate a policy that pisses off the majority of your base. Like Mandates.

[girl gone mad]

88. Exactly.

the Dems. favorability with Independents is plummeting.

They aren't just losing the "Naderites"

[MisterP]

39. they're George Wallace Dems, held over nt

[fascisthunter]

59. yes, I have seen it too

[Blasphemer]

76. There does indeed. I suspect there is a hidden element at play

It doesn't quite make sense on the face of it. They seem sure that they are right and time will be bear that out so the attacks on the opposing opinion is pretty baffling to me. The way I see it is, if this bill turns out be a good thing, I will be happy to have been wrong. The party will be strong, people will be happy and receive quality health care at affordable rates so, for me, I don't have any vested interest in proving to those who support the bill that they are wrong and should change their opinion. On the flip side, there does seem to be a strong underlying sentiment amongst supporters that they need to convince those who have differing opinions that they are wrong and convince them of why they need to tow the party line. They have much more invested in being wrong than someone like me does. If they are proven wrong, not only will the "crybabies" and irrelevant "quitters" on the left have been proven right but there will be no one left to blame. Where do they go from there? Where goes their future power to persuade? They have a lot more riding on this than the "irrelevant" left.

[madfloridian]

15. The ridicule of the left by our own party is dangerous.

Those of us who have really cared about issues and standing up for things are being put down as unimportant...by the WH

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

31. Actually, if anyone hasn't earned it it's madfloridian.

She's awesome.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. ....

:spray: :rofl:

[madfloridian]

37. I have earned ridicule for speaking out?

Interesting.

[Dr Fate]

38. From me, respect. Thanks for all your informative threads over the years.

n/t

[walldude]

49. LMFAO.. Were you trying to prove the OP's point?

Ass.

[Greyhound]

29. Could it be that we've overlooked the real agenda? n/t

[Echo In Light]

43. +1

[Missy Vixen]

32. I can't wait till the next fundraising phone call from the DSCC, DNC, etcetera

I'm a progressive. If I'm "not a real Democrat", they obviously don't want my money these days, do they?

:sarcasm:

:woohoo:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. But it's perfectly fine to demonize the Democrats you don't like, right?

[Dr Fate]

36. Like who? Conservative DEMS? DLCers? Liebermanites? The turn-coat Blue Dogs the base gave money to?

I thought the OP was suggesting that centrist voices should tone down attacks on Liberals & pro-reform independents who campaigned for and donated to Obama.

Is this what you mean by "demonizing" centrists?

I dont see it as two sides of the same coin at all- many in the base are disappointed with centrist power brokers for ignoring and marginalizing Liberals.

I think the centrist power-brokers would have ignored, marginalized or even scapegoated the Liberal base in order to "look moderate"- whether the Liberal voters fought back in kind or not.

It's like saying that date rape victim has no room to complain about the attacker's violence if she ever used violence herself to resist the advances of her attacker.

[walldude]

54. Just the ones who threw their Democratic values out the window.

Taking a stand against the Democrats doing the wrong thing does not make me a Republican, it doesn't make me irrelevant, it doesn't make it my fault.


Let's see what was the talking point for today? Oh yeah I need to lay off the hallucinogenics. :rofl :rofl:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

57. So you don't value making sure that 30 million more Americans have health care?

How mightily progressive of you!

And by the way, neither you nor I get to be the sole arbiter of what Democratic values are. Never forget that.

[Dr Fate]

61. 30 million? Sounds like a large base of hard working DEM activists to me.

Why even bother butting heads with the fake progressives who oppose this bill- just work to recruit the 30 million people who love the bill to take their place.

Problem solved.

[walldude]

80. Oh I know good and well that my values are not the party's...

And I'm one of those 30 million Americans, along with my wife and children. We haven't had insurance for almost 10 years. So please don't pretend to sit there and tell me that I don't know what the fucking stakes are in this little game they are playing. It's a fucking game to them it's a fucking game to you, it's a fucking game to the talking heads, and it's a fucking game to the corporations that scored big because people like you are afraid to stand up for whats right. . For me it's a matter of making sure my wife's heart disease is treated, that my son's Autism is covered if we need help, and that when my son who we adopted when his father died of the same MD that he has is taken care of if and when his disease manifests itself. So please shove your holier than though "I'm a better progressive than you are" crap up your ass, because somehow I seriously doubt that your stakes in this are as high as mine.

[girl gone mad]

90. What they can't seem to admit is that..

a significant portion of those 30 million do not have insurance because they think it is a defective, worthless product and/or the insurance companies are crooks.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

96. I spent 5 years without health insurance.

Denied for pre-existing conditions. Let me tell you something - there is nothing worse than knowing you can't go to a doctor when you think you might actually be dying because you know you can't pay the bill. I don't buy for one solitary second that a "significant portion" of those 30 million are that fucking stupid that they actively choose not to have health care. I do buy that you are that fucking stupid though.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

95. LOL, if you say so pal.

You either have no clue what's going on or are willing to vote against your own self interest. You can pick, but the fact of the matter is that every rational, respected progressive from Bernie Sanders, to Vicki Kennedy, to Paul Krugman (whom I don't even like) thinks this bill is not only a lot better than the status quo, but is no where near a big score to the insurance companies. So you'll forgive if I call bullshit on both your little story and your little diatribe.

[Joe Chi Minh]

48. People were talking about the left being battered by the DLC, but I'm

baffled as to how the opinions of the DLC should mean anything to Democrats, i.e. progressive Social Democrats. What did people expect to hear from them? Politicians tend to object vociferously when the voters take them to the woodshed.

[Generator]

68. My opinion is they really don't want our vote anymore

and as Dr. Frankenfurter in Rocky Horror said, they shall receive it in abundance.

I have started to wonder about vote fixing. Obama seems to have everything else out of the Bush toolbox, so why not that? (that's worse case last moment though ya know)

Otherwise they are really dumb to think we are going to forgive and forget. And apathy will be their new change they can believe in.

[Neecy]

75. +1 for Rocky Horror Reference

:)

[bvar22]

69. Recommending for content.

Kicking for wider exposure.

Expressing gratitude that there is one less "Centrist" disruptor on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7294007

I'm sure THAT poster would have been all over this thread.

On Edit added this:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

70. To be fair, you guys *did* start it.

After all of the ridiculous insults the netroots and self-appointed capital-P Progressives have thrown at every mainstream Democrat, for them to turn around and act shocked that they're being insulted is, well, totally hypocritical.

[madfloridian]

77. "self-appointed capital-P Progressives"

:rofl:

[girl gone mad]

91. What you don't seem to understand is that you're not mainstream.

Fewer people than ever identify with the major political parties. More than ever consider themselves to be politically unaffiliated. That's the center, and the vast majority of Independents prefer the public option plan and oppose mandates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR2009101902451.html

You are the extremists.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

94. Calling people extremists is a surefire way to ensure they don't pay any attention to you.

Furthermore your own link undermines your statements. To wit,

But sizable majorities back two key and controversial provisions: both the so-called public option and a new mandate that would require all Americans to carry health insurance.

I see nothing in your (old) link that implies that independents oppose mandates. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[kenfrequed]

100. To my knowledge...

The DLC was spawned back in the early to mid 80's by so called Reagan Democrats.

What they continued and galvanized was a march to the corporate right and away from traditional Democratic allies such that Al Gore eventually (though quietly) left the organization.

The Netroots might be identified as a populist reaction to wing of the party that has tried hard to turn its back on the very people it is supposed to represent.

[mmonk]

73. Point of purpose. Some in the Party of note and some TV personalities,

writers, and in the blogosphere. What prompted my OP was Joan Walsh on the Ed Show saying those on the left calling to kill the Senate Bill reminded her of those things mentioned. There are the documented things Rahm has said regarding the process and The President making out the public option was minor. I'll continue later as I have to run again.

[Blasphemer]

78. They have no choice. This is do-or-die for them

They have much more riding on this than anyone on the left does. If is proven to be a success, the left will be able to happily say, "I was wrong". On the other hand, it is proven to be a failure, they are up a creek. They need to marginalize the left because in case of failure, they don't want them around to remind people of just how right they were in their opposition.

[rudy23]

79. I think they want to lose in '10. I'm working & voting for Dems out of spite next year.

They know we have no one else to vote for, but we can still educate the "center" as to what Barack's doing to help us pressure him from "the left." It's not that hard b/c like the public option, much of what they try to tell is leftist is actually very mainstream.

[girl gone mad]

92. Poll after poll shows that the positions these "centrists" take..

are unpopular with the public and with true moderates.

They are the fringe, not us.

[omega minimo]

89. You overlooked: By calling Women expendable, pawns, separate and unequal .....

[joeybee12]

98. There is a breaking point...I think if the WH and Dems didn't shit on us over

quite a bit prior to dumping the public option, many of us would just grumble and live with it...it's not the public option...it's the capitualtion on every single issue.