It is the liberals and video games that are behind

[nadinbrzezinski]

the VT massacre! (According to Newt)

Ok, lets take one of his theories, that our kids 7,8,9,10... are playing violent video games

His thesis is correct, but it has precious to do with ideology

I will use my lovely brother as an example

Their daughter is twelve years old, to her credit she saved the money for her PSP... but to the lack of credit by the parents they went ahead and bought her San Andreas

Now I had a cow.

I know this is an M rated game, 17 and above... for god sakes her boobs have not come out yet

So they proceeded to give me the following excuses

"well her friends have it, and I'd better know she's playing it and not do it behind my back."

I did not buy that one... so I guess good lemmings should jump off the cliff together

"She knows its a game and gosh darn it, the sounds the characters make, she finds them funny" Including the sounds of shooting victims and drowning victims, keep that in the back of your mind, just how lovely isn't it?

"Well she is a very mature young woman."

At that point I almost lost it in hysterical laughter. Knowing what I know about human development and brain development... it has precious little to do with maturity and we are finding more and more just how little risk avert kids really are... and it has NOTHING to do with maturity but brain physiology

then they asked, what is your major beef for us buying her that game?

I work in the industry (Paper and pencil side) and gosh darn it, the ratings are there for a reason. What is more, my husband comes from a police family... and on principle we're bothered by the police murders in the game. It is NOT funny.

So next time you hear anybody criticizing the game industry for producing M rated games that end up in the hands of teens... remember this story... I am sure this is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

And why am I bringing this up again? LIke clockwork the usual a-holes have blamed these violent video games (M-rated remember that) for the violence in our teen culture.

[sandnsea]

1. It's very interesting

Music and video games contributes to violence in teen culture. Rap and gang movies contributes to violence in black culture.

But hate radio in the white male culture is a-ok, free speech.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Well that is the other part of it, the amazing double standards

but I posted this to show something of interest (and if my brother lived in the US he'd vote Republican), that the people who want the most regulation and curtailment of free speech are the first ones to truly ignroe the real cause of why some items end in the improper hands. Ahem, the parents

By the way in the VT shooting they have gone out of their way to prove video games were behind it. Mr. Cho played no video game or role playing game

He also did not listen to gangsa rap.

Mathews has going almost out of his mind as kid after kid told him, no, no video games here

[WindRavenX]

3. Oh whatever.

I played Doom and old skool FPS when I was 12. I'm fine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. That was well before the rating system came to be

And as a member of the industry I SUPPORT the rating systems

There are there for a reason, and if you choose to buy these games for your twelve year old, you are free to do it, the operative is YOU ARE FREE TO DO IT

[WindRavenX]

6. Yeah it was before the rating system came out.

And to be honest, it sure hasn't done a lot. Anyone--any age-- can buy "M" rated games. There's no real barrier to getting the games. I can buy 'em on eBay. I can get a friend to buy them. I can download them. It's a joke, it really is.

It's just something to make people feel good about themselves.

And the comments about hip hop and rap in this thread are interesting because it's clear people have not a clue about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Yep it is a joke, just like the movie system

self imposed by the way....

That is why a six year old can go into an NC-17 movie, without an adult.

Look, there are loopholes, but people ALWAYS find loopholes

And if a clerk sells this to a kid, there should be penalties, period... just as there are penalties if you allow a kid to a movie not rated for him, sans adult

[Rue]

7. Right, the kid's mental stability is the deciding factor.

Video games are not for those kids who will adopt the various fantasy worlds as their way of living. It's a matter of the parents watching the ratings and being able to tell if the kid is too in it.

If the kid is content and can tell the difference between the game and reality, by all means let them play as long as the content is not objectionable to the parents!

[ends_dont_justify]

13. You don't set America's standards alone, but as a part of the group

And frankly, going "Oh whatever" as a "Mature Response" to a topic like this shows that if it didn't have any impact on you, there was a reason for it that lead you to even want to play the game at the age of 12.

[WindRavenX]

15. Yeah, because it was fun to play with friends

:shrug:

[Zhade]

85. Until you shot them, right?

:eyes:

We've got little mini-Thompsons right here on DU, who likewise don't have a fucking clue about the industry they're attacking. Sad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Some of us have more than a clue

and I am not attacking it, just emphasizing that just like guns should be licenced, we have to be a tad more careful on what we produce.

Is that a problem for you?

[Zhade]

92. I'm not talking about YOU, so feel free to chill.

:)

[meldroc]

25. Same here.

When I was a kid, I was exposed to Doom, Quake, Castle Wolfenstein, rap music, heavy metal music, R-rated violent movies, anime, manga and role-playing games. When I was little, I even looked at some porn!

Guess what, I'm fine. The whole controversy over violent video games, music, movies, books etc. is completely overblown. I survived exposure with no ill effects, and your kids will too.

If your a parent, you have the right to determine what your kids watch, but as for me, I don't have kids. I don't care, and I don't need yet more censorship or ratings systems or stupid rules. I want liberty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. In any society there are limits

and I will emphasize once again THE RATING SYSTEM IS NOT GOVERNMENT DRIVEN

Once the government gets involved, we can talk

(And I will not be too shocked if your tone changes when you have kids, for the record we don't, but as a RESPONSIBLE producer of role playing games I have to abide by community standards, which I did not set by the way. You or I don't get to set them, society does)

[sandnsea]

27. Yeah, we live in such a harmonious society n/t

[Zhade]

73. Yeah, I hear Hitler played video games too.

:eyes:

[Marr]

5. Where do you suppose the game developers got *their* violent impulses from?

Most of them were kids themselves not so very long ago. They couldn't have been corrupted by violent video games- at least, not the first generation of them.

Violent games and movies reflect our society a hell of alot more than they influence it.

Still, I agree that alot of these games and movies shouldn't be played by small children. But as you said, they're rated and parents often choose to ignore the ratings.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. As you can see in the post above

As to who designs these things, I am in my forties... and yes movies, games, music, are all a reflection of the society

The rating system came to be from screams from the usual suspects

If a clerk sells a game to an 11 year old, then there is nothing I can beyond hoping the vice department gives them a fine, yet it is not illegal to sell them to a kid

but they were set for the same reason the movie ratings are there, and I am not shitting you. We had several 11 year olds with an adult, watching jearhead, and of course the two six year olds were even more shocking

But the movie was not NC-17, even if it should have been... so the kids could there with an adult.

[ends_dont_justify]

8. It's not only a fault of the parents...

There should be a law where the sales clerks of video games, if given any knowledge that a parent is buying a rated game for a child that is not permitted to be playing it due to the rating, should be allowed to withhold the sale to the parent. I've heard lots of cases of the people at these game retailers that they'll see a kid walking up to the counter holding a game like GTA3 and the parents buy it for them...obviously the attachment the kid has to the game means it's for them but, what are they going to do? The parent is above the rating level.

There are always loop holes...rather than complete and total banning on things, I think we should work hard at continuously plugging the loopholes too. The people who say ban video games are out of their mind, but I think worlds more can be done about parents who willfully buy little kids things like that.

[kiahzero]

21. Um... what?

You want the state to be able to determine what you can read, too?

"You can't buy Catcher in the Rye for your son... it's too mature."

:puke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Three things

the regulatory system for both movies and video games was self inposed... the state has NOTHING to do with it

Second.... you are not allowed to bring kids into certain movies as an adult... there are some games (both M, and Adult Only) that should not be sold to kids

Third, the reason why the movie rating system works is there are fines, imposed not by the state but the industry on violators

Does at times look funny? Absolutely, but it works... better than the rating system for games

[kiahzero]

24. Maybe you should reread the poster I was replying to

He wanted to make it illegal for a parent to buy video games for children. I asked the natural question, should it also be illegal for parents to buy books for children.

You have entirely too much faith in the ESRB; the rating decisions are arbitrary and largely meaningless. Putting Diablo in the same category as GTA is just plain silly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. It is not faith

and the system is far from perfect....

It can and should be reviewed

But it is better (as a guide to grandma) than nothing

[kiahzero]

32. So, with that in mind, why rely on it more?

If you admit it's solely useful as an poor shorthand for how mature a game is (a "guide for grandma"), why would you support it being used for any purpose other than that? If the parents want to buy GTA:SA for their little kid, that's their decision.

I didn't freak out when I was at 300 and someone brought their 10-year-old with them... if the parents felt that their kid was capable of watching the movie, how am I to know any better?

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. So what is your solution? A free for all

ok... whatever

(for the record taht is what we had... and if it had remained that way, you can bet on FEDERAL or at least STATE regulation, you sure you want to go there)

[kiahzero]

43. Keep the ratings, ditch the efforts to make them more binding.

I have no problem with games being rated, even though that rating process is inherently subjective (for instance, I'm pretty sure the reason Diablo is rated M is just because the story deals with Hell quite a bite). My problem is when people try to turn these content advisories into regulation to attempt to bar minors from purchasing them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I am sorry but some games should not be in the hands of minors

GTA comes to mind, so we will have to disagree

[Zhade]

77. Well, that's rather arbitrary!

Minor includes 17-year-olds a day from their 18th birthday. Is there really a difference in their brains from that day to the day they become a legal adult?

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. No but I cannot do a thing about

those kids now can I?

And rating ARE arbitrary by their very nature

[donco6]

9. If I had kids, I wouldn't be buying these games.

When you actually buy a game, I believe there's an endorsement that attaches to it - even if it's not overt. "My mom bought it for me, so it must be OK." Rather than, "I'll sneak over to Jenny's house and play - my mom doesn't approve." That argument doesn't hold water to me, either.

[Marr]

10. Also- politicians have no place complaining about violent video games when

they're *selling one* (America's Army) in the hopes of drumming up recruitment so they can use the kids to kill ACTUAL PEOPLE.

[Forkboy]

112. Cha fucking ching!

:thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

12. Oh - well - if Newt said it - that paragon of verbal virtue - it must be true.

[firefox_fan]

14. Of course, the conservative show "24" on FOX has nothing to to with it.

Assuming we go down that road...

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. But torture is fun!!!!!!!!!!! and part fo the matrix of

a very violent culture where violence is part of the equation

But, just as I would not call for the banning of games, I will not tell them to stop running 24, even if it has MAJOR problems with it.

I just don't watch it

;-)

[firefox_fan]

35. I used to watch it... I stopped, not because of the violence,

That does not bother me much. The plot had become so idiotic as to be painful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I had a problem with the premise from word go

;-)

[ComerPerro]

18. but your argument agrees with Newt, in a way, that the violent video games are the inspiration

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. No my argument is that these games

end in the hands of teens becuse adults buy them for kids ... when the ratings clearly state they should not

I agree with Newt in only one respect, the games are getting played

But the cause, and the effect, no.

The cause, irresponsbile parents, whiny kids, you mention it... not the liberal producers polluting the culture

The effect... it is the whole culture and a combination of a perfect storm in an individual that will lead to disasters such as VT... or Columbine

Oh and the best argument that video games can be part of the matrix, minor at best, is that Mr. Cho did NOT, I repeat DID NOT play them

[ComerPerro]

20. yes but you say that the fault is on the parents for letting their kids have these games, right?

well, one could logically extend your agrument to say that the danger of letting these kids have these games is that they will have their minds warped, and will be prompted to imitate these games.

Otherwise, what is the harm in letting 12 and 13 and 14 year olds play?

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. It is also the fault of the parents if they allow their kids

mature and all, to drink alcohol at home.

Look parenting has a role in all of this, and how and what we taech our kids also has to do with what movies we allow them to watch, and what games we allow them to play

For the record, there are plenty of T rated VIDEO games out there.

I know we would like this not to be so, but it does take a village to raise a child

As to warping of brains if the kids should play those games... there are plenty of studies out there, contradictory at best... so it does come to individual kids (And yes I do try to follow the science since it reminds me of what was produced back in the 50s condeming comic books... and we all kow how bunk that was)

Did I play video games when I was growing up? Yep, galaga is still one of my all time favorites. Did I play doom when I was in college? Yes, but when my nieces came to visit that particular game went to the top of the shelf... that was the RESPONSIBLE thing to do... now they could go pop balloons, but DOOM, no way, no how.

[kiahzero]

31. I played DOOM when I was 8.

I'm in law school now. Clearly, it destroyed my mind. :D

Your premise that one must hide media from children in order to be "responsible" strikes me as a tad absurd. Perhaps your nieces weren't capable of being exposed to the game without somehow being negatively affected, but you shouldn't generalize that case to the whole of society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. And perhaps you have no idea how the military trains

personnel, but dehumanization is part of it, and video games ARE USED by the military in that way as well

Perhaps you really do not like living in a society...

[kiahzero]

42. Actually, video games are used for agent detection and hand-eye coordination.

You're right... I hate society. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

29. Don't say "pig"

but teach your kid killing is just a game, another form of sport, like jump rope and soccer.

okeedoke.

[ComerPerro]

33. I have said very little about the whole Baldwin situation. I don't care

[sandnsea]

34. That was a general comment

to which you are free to address or not. I find the range of ideas of what is acceptable speech and what isn't to have moved from debate to absolute hilarity.

I'm not a big believer in very much censorship. But it does seem to me that there is something a bit absurd about a society that actually creates killing games - and then wonders why there's so much killing in its society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. We've had war games from time immemorial

sand table games (as they were once called) were a common training feature of Lords and other members of nobilty.

Chess is a wargame, after all

And just as you I am not a believer in censorship, but I am a believer in certain standards

Just like kids did not play war for real until they were old enough to hold a sword (and they were expected to lead troops), there is a problem with havnig six year old kids play wargames... of any kind, the sand table variety or the video variety.

[sandnsea]

41. Simulation of live slaughter

Among children and young people, not really the same as chess. Mine played Zelda and similar quest type games, even as they started getting bloodier. But the single shooter and grand theft stuff - I didn't allow it. My sons thought I was nuts and I just told them to humor their nutty mother and don't play that stuff. Lots of other garbage out there to choose from, that's for sure. I just wish people would take an objective look at how far removed from chess these games really are.

[kiahzero]

44. That's a sure sign of a rational view.

Lots of other garbage out there to choose from, that's for sure.

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

45. There's not?

Video games aren't useless garbage?

:shrug:

BTW, half of what I do is useless garbage too. Sopranos is on tonight and it doesn't get more useless or vulgar than that. Doesn't mean I'm going to watch it with my grandson.

[kiahzero]

46. No, they aren't.

First, many are downright artistic. Second, recreation is a use, so recreational activities are not "useless."

If you enjoy The Sopranos, how is it "useless garbage?"

[sandnsea]

47. It just is

And to my original point, there's plenty of useless garbage, er, "recreation" out there - and my sons were free to choose from any of it except single shooter and grand theft type videos. You're obviously free to choose your own, er, recreation. But we are, in fact, turning death and murder into a game. It is ghoulish, when you really stop and think about it.

[kiahzero]

48. "Because I said so"

That may work on young children who don't know any better, but if you want anyone to take you seriously, perhaps you should attempt to make a rational argument supporting your position.

[sandnsea]

50. Because you said so

It's "recreation". This kind of recreation isn't necessary. It doesn't exercise the body or the mind. In fact it fills the mind with the worst kind of garbage I can think of, like a daily dose of snuff films. Still, most of pop culture is garbage in varying degrees. Unnnecessary 'recreation', garbage, whatever. All the same useless stuff.

[AZCat]

51. Games don't exercise the mind?

Perhaps you should play some of those very games listed above (FPS and GTA-style) before making such a claim. And if you have done so, then I disagree with your conclusion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Some of those games DON'T

and some have levels of gratuitious violence that leave me cold.

Oh and there are studies regarding desentization of populations and famous cases as well... none of those studies are about vidoe games, but you get the picture... it is not as clear.

Now most games (Yes the majority) exercise the mind by the use of puzzles and puzzle solving... and they are less linear than they used to be... but as I said, there are certain things that are produced that perhaps should not... such as the aformentioned slashed throat.

[AZCat]

57. I'm not arguing about gratuitous violence or desensitization.

A game could have those things and still exercise the mind. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to find a game that doesn't in some way "exercise the mind". Games usually have some sort of an "economy", although it may not fit the common understanding of such. For example - First Person Shooters (aka FPSs) have resources that must be conserved (health and ammo) or generated (usually by creating corpses and ransacking them). A player has to make decisions about the "expense" of certain events versus the possible gains. Does one waste precious ammo on a particular target or attempt to use a more common, but less effective round in an effort to save the more rare ammo for more difficult targets later on? This sort of decision-making is present in even the most linear FPS, and while it may disgust some people, the game itself still "excercises the mind" of those playing it.

A caveat - I also don't want to argue about exposure of children or adolescents to games. While there isn't a causative link between violent games and antisocial behavior (yet), sometimes it's best to be safe rather than sorry. I have no problem with a rating system (mandatory or otherwise).

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Then we essentially agree

and the rating system is there for that reason

As to the effects in children... my personal opinion of why we haven't seen good reserch on it is.... the variables are so extensive that gaming is just one more.

[AZCat]

69. I think so.

It is probably impossible to directly link violent games to violent behavior for the very reason you suggested, but hopefully research will be able to clarify the role played (heh - no pun intended) by simulated violence in the creation of antisocial behavior. At least one study has been able to use advanced imaging technology to examine the response to televised violence in the brains of children (Psychiatric News, August 6, 2004).

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. When I read that one I went oh my

that is the closest they have ever come to linking it

On edit I also think the kids that will be affected where alraedy fragile for some other reason before they would be affected by the games

[AZCat]

78. I remember when that article came out.

I went to Kansas State so the headline in the local paper jumped out at me. I was a bit surprised by the findings, but have been waiting for further studies (larger sample size, more varied television violence exposure) for corroboration. It would be nice to see a "control group" of adults so we can see how the brain changes its response (if it does at all).

As you do, I suspect that kids on the "fringe" would be more affected, just as adults on the "fringe" are more affected by other traumatic events.

[sandnsea]

60. Like Playboy for the articles??

Like I said originally, there's other garbage to choose from. Some things just aren't appropriate for kids.

[AZCat]

110. I'm sorry, I didn't see this last night.

I agree with your point about exposure to children (see several posts elsewhere in this thread). I just disagree with your conclusion that games don't "exercise the mind". I also don't see why you insist on calling entertainment "garbage" - this strikes me as an example of "framing" rather than reasonable discussion.

And yes, sometimes Playboy has good articles. Does their presence in Playboy (versus other publications) mean that they are not acceptable journalism? I can see that you would not want to expose children to Playboy on the off-chance that they might read something enlightening, but isn't the quality of an article independent of the medium?

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. I will add the early stories by Stepehn Kinb

where first published by Playboy, which is a very well paying market

[AZCat]

142. The Bachman stories?

Or the early ones under his own name? I didn't realize he was first published by Playboy, but it doesn't surprise me. They really do have good articles/fiction sometimes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. The early ones under his own name

I got to read them before my mom dumped many of them magazines

What was ammusing is, I knew of their existence before my parents did. My brothers bought them behind their backs and stored them in the bathroom (like many kids their age)

I didn't care for the photos (1960s, truly) but some of the stories on the vietnam war or King were amazing, and that was in teh early 1980s

So one day I asked my mom, where are them magazines,

Trash...your brothers said they were worthless

I had almsot a cow, after all taking them back to the states would have been tricky I think....

Then I said, what about the old Time magazines? One was the special on the assasination of JFK,

Again my brother said they are worthless.

I had a cow... and I said, you know he's a doctor, let him practice his medicine, but let me judge if something has histirical value, and the TIME mags, they did


So I went through my mom's personal library and broght some things that are of historical value... in fact, one I might take to the rare books collection at the local university... I don't know how rare this is, but it just may be.

And I have thougth for some years of submiting material to the mag, I think they still run fiction, I'm not sure. And some years back the king stories were sold as a collection... the play boys King stories, and now I kick myself for not getting a copy... gosh darn it I thought I'd have access to the original printings.

[sandnsea]

122. See #118

I really don't think life is about being entertained. That idea has led us to a place where news and politics is entertainment, we have to use cartoons to say the politically incorrect things that can't even be said on so-called reality shows, and real live people are told to hang on while we get perfect solutions to their problems. Complete disconnect from reality, in large part due to our escape into "entertainment" - or as I call it, garbage.

And yes I am at least as guilty, if not guiltier, than anybody else.

[AZCat]

130. I guess life is what you make of it.

A life based around entertainment does seem a little shallow, unless you can find entertainment in what would normally not be considered "entertaining". Spending time with children, for example, can be quite entertaining while it is at the same time instructive (usually to both parties in my case) or productive.

However, I do see your point about "games" and "garbage".

[sandnsea]

132. Just discussion

I think it's always worthwhile to think about the messages our children are getting from us. I wasn't proposing any laws or anything. I was just thinking, if you don't want your kids to think killing humans is an acceptable behavior, you probably shouldn't send them the message that killing people makes an acceptable game. That doesn't mean anybody kills people specifically because they play a game. But I don't know what affect that, along with the rest of our pop culture, has on creating an angry culture. It's all worth talking about. From hate radio to music to movies to games to horrible politicians who denigrate half the population to win elections. It's all just plain old ugly.

[AZCat]

133. I agree.

After all, isn't the raising children the whole point of civilization? Why would we go to the effort to birth, feed, school them properly if we're just going to risk warping their development through some other means? Unfortunately exposure to this sort of thing is inevitable (with the rare exception) so discussion with the children about culture is just as essential IMO as discussion among adults about moderating cultural exposure for children. You can't hide the dark side of life, but you certainly can try to put it in perspective.

[sandnsea]

135. Agree

Also, it's a little scary that people would equate the very real tragedies that are portrayed on the news, which kids do need to know are realities of life; to the amusement provided by a game. That would seem to indicate we've got some things mixed up. At least to me. The only people I've ever heard equate Playboy to sex education have been fundies. Why would anybody equate games to news?? Weird.

[Zhade]

83. Games like Katamari are "snuff films"?

:rofl:

You should, you know, actually have an idea what you're talking about before jumping into the fray.

[sandnsea]

105. Maybe you should read the thread

I was specific in that I am talking about realistic mass slaughter video games. You have a habit of jumping into the fray without knowing what the fray is even about.

[Zhade]

107. I did. You're clearly not that well-informed about gaming.

It's pretty easy to catch up, though, to the point where you'll realize the industry isn't all GTAs or *shudder* Karaoke Revolution Country.

There is mass slaughter in some games, yes (but not GTA, for one). Hardly more than, oh, the bible.

[sandnsea]

109. I never said that, so try reading n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Some in the industry have been thinking about this for a while

just like other creative arts.

But just like the gun nuts who don't get it, perhaps it is time to rethink what we produce... no not calling for censorship, just a reevaluation of what we do and how we do it. for instance, the hyper realism that I can achieve today with a multi threading capable, 64 bit based computer means that I could produce graphics that would be anatomically and physiologically correct for slashing a throat... even if it advances story line, tell me, why should I? Just because some people want it? (For the record seen slashed throats in real life, and it ain't pleasant)

Now OUTSIDE a game setting, in a video "game" meant to train paramedics, EMTS and ER Docs, I can see the use of this...do the wrong thing, and as in real life, patient dies FAST.

Personally I abide by community standards (of what should go in a role playing game) and when producing D20 material my license says clearly nothing sexual, or vulgar... and who determines that? WoTC, so you keep to the straight and narrow ok.

[kiahzero]

58. Out of curiosity, what "community standards" do you go by?

I'm working on a law review note on community standards on the Internet, so I'm curious to find out what you consider the relevant "community" to be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. WoTC has a very strict code of what any product

with the D20 symbol can be sold
4. Quality Standards

The nature of all material You use or distribute that incorporates the Licensed Articles must comply with all applicable laws and regulations, as well as community standards of decency, as further described in the d20 System Guide. You must use Your best efforts to preserve the high standard and goodwill of the Licensed Trademarks. In order to assure the foregoing standard and quality requirements, Wizards of the Coast shall have the right, upon notice to You, to review and inspect all material released by You that uses the Licensed Articles. You shall fully cooperate with Wizards of the Coast to facilitate such review and inspection, including timely provision of copies of all such materials to Wizards of the Coast. Wizards of the Coast may terminate this License immediately upon attempted notice to you if it deems, in its sole discretion, that your use of the Licensed Articles does not meet the above standards.

Here are sevearal linnks

http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=10030

http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/d20stlreview.pdf

As you can see soem review on what is published is starting to happen... and I am personally not shocked that it started with the paper and pencil

And what led to that?

The book of vile darkness (Adult content)

[kiahzero]

67. Right, but what "community?"

You were talking about complying with "community standards" previously.. was that not a reference to the "community standards" of Miller?

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. If I have to explain it I will

Book of Vile Darkness, had pornographic themees (they are out)

gratuitious violence, out

If you want that in your games, I guess that is ok. I am willing to abide by those community standards and NOT produce material that has either of those two major offenders.

the list also includes things like racism but I am sure that is ok too

[kiahzero]

75. Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with the BoVD

I was playing a campaign with a guy who was playing a lawful evil drow who was under a geas to aid the party. That was put out by WotC, though... somehow I doubt that they removed their branding from their own book.

Regardless, it seems clear that we're talking about different meanings of "community standards." I was referring to geographic communities... for instance, Tennessee versus California.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. They released that one under another licence

agreement and revamped the licence

And as to Tennesse and California... my real fear is this coutry is held together by duct tape and a prayer. The cultural differences are so wide and the lack of community so bad, that I expect the balkanization of this country. But that is for antoher thread

[kiahzero]

86. Well, let me share with you the impetus for my research.

Let's say you live in California. Let's say you're in the Internet porn business. We'll say it's tasteful, but there's lots of pictures of naked people and they're having sex. You do your shoots entirely in California, your server is in California... essentially, every contact you have related to your porn business is in California.

Investigators in Tennessee view your website, and want to arrest you for violating their community standards. Should you be liable? Current jurisprudence, strangely enough, says "yes."

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Strangely porn is against the law in California as well

so the example doesn't fly very well

But that is a federal standard... and in some ways it has to do with interstate commerce claws, et al

But going back to the issue of regional standards... as I said, the country is ripe for balkanization

[kiahzero]

91. The law in question was a state law.

The content didn't violate California community standards, but it did violate Tennessee's.

[AZCat]

89. Uh-oh.

Continuing this "hypothetical" example, how about photos of the same nature posted by an individual to a personal website hosted in California viewed by an investigator in Tennessee? Does current jurisprudence apply to non-commercial sites as well?

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Yes it does

and wehther they are state or federal it has all to do with interstate commerce

And that is one of those "gray" areas of law

[kiahzero]

97. Pretty sure it does.

Obscenity is obscenity regardless of whether it's commercial or non-commercial.

The theme of the paper is going to be two-fold. First, the relevant "community" should be the community where the material is hosted. Second, material on the Internet should be considered akin to material in one's own home, thus falling under the orbit of Stanley v. Georgia.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Well good luck

we have to first settle this gray issue at home and then around the world

After all there is a reason why some of these servers are far away from the reach of US Law enforcement, if you get me drift

;-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. By the way my oops

and my hubby corrected me, porn is legal in california

i forgot where penthouse and play boy are produce, my bad

But the interstate clause still applies

;-)

[kiahzero]

141. The Dormant Commerce Clause doesn't really matter here.

Because Tennessee considers something to be "obscene," they can regulate its entry into the state.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Ok I get it

I guess I needed more cofee last night

;-)

So by that logic, Play boy and Penthose are not sold in the state

[Zhade]

81. Indeed.

People like this are why the art form of games is under attack - because they just can't see past a GTA to an Okami.

Hell, they probably don't even know what Okami is.

[AZCat]

82. I don't even know what an "Okami" is.

Is it a "console" thing? I'm PC-only. :(

[Zhade]

90. It's a wonderfully artistic game - literally.

It's the polar opposite of GTA, and an argument that supports games as art (which they are - quality of the form is irrelevant) and worthy of protected speech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckami

[AZCat]

95. Ahhhh! Why don't these ever come out for PC?

Sometimes I think game developers have abandoned the PC as a viable gaming market, except for the forgettable FPS clones herded onto store shelves every November. I still have Grim Fandango loaded on my computer, and it came out nearly a decade ago!

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Because the consoles offer a level of flexibility

that they don't get

For the record my hubby plays the online games


We have a PS2 and the PSP that I honestly bought to show art at shows (it gets used for gaming too)... but some of the games for the consolers are just pretty to watch

Others....

Well, lets not go there

[Zhade]

99. Fractured market, maybe?

Never know which PCs will run which game? Or maybe the PC is no longer considered a gaming machine so much as an internet pod. Dunno, but it's a good question. I'll ask my best friend (she works for Activision).

[AZCat]

104. Piracy might be a factor, too.

I think it is harder to pirate console games than PC games. Not that I've done either, but the PC offers much more access to the game code, IMO offering an easier target for those trying to short-circuit CD/DVD checks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Yep, here you go

http://www.videogametalk.com/review.php?ID=498

[Forkboy]

114. TV is more passive.

Try playing a game like Pharoah where you run the Egyptians world,including economic activities like production and distribution of various goods (like sending out reed pickers so they can turn it into papyrus which you need to build colleges),managing armies and food crops,keeping your citizens happy by building cultural centers,and basically managing an empire.It's hardly the same as passively watching tv,and there have been studies (that I wish I could find for you) that show the difference in brain activity between watching tv and playing games.

There's a great book called "Everything Bad Is Good For You:How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter" by Steven Johnson that's really excellent and goes into this topic in great detail.I urge any parent to read it.


The thesis of Everything Bad is Good for You is this: people who deride popular culture do so because so much of popcult's subject matter is banal or offensive. But the beneficial elements of videogames and TV arise not from their subject matter, but from their format, which require that players and viewers winkle out complex storylines and puzzles, getting a "cognitive workout" that teaches the same kind of skills that math problems and chess games impart. As Johnson points out, no one evaluates the benefit of chess based on its storyline or monotonically militaristic subject matter.

Johnson's thesis emerges in a delightful and accessible blend of stats, anecdotes and argument. His chapter on television, which compares the plots of Dragnet, Hill Street Blues and the Sopranos, is a flat-out hoot, which made me re-think the way that I judge the value of TV. Likewise the stuff on video games, and the idea that the point of most games is to first figure out what the point of the game is, mirroring the real world, where the point is often to figure out what the point is.

[sandnsea]

118. True enough

I still think in the sense of living a really useful life - entertainment is a colossal waste of time and the very idea that life is supposed to be entertaining - well it's garbage. I don't think playing a controlled game is going to help a city manager when real people have very real, yet conflicting needs. I think we make a lot of excuses for our entertainment industry without analyzing the cost it has in terms of real community connectivity and substantive outcomes.

Having said that, I do like that I have more options for music than the local church choir and more options for live performance than a local theatre troup. I will be the first to admit I waste a lot lot lot of time.

[Forkboy]

126. The game I mention makes you deal with conflicting needs throughout.

It is a very interesting game where you have to juggle various things to keep your city thriving.Too much spent of food and making people happy leaves you open for military attack.If you don't keep your people happy though they leave to go to other cities,leaving yours unable to support things like fire protection,policing and education.You're constantly forced to decide what's best for the people and what's best for the State,because you have to meet the demands of the Pharaoh,who is always asking for things like pottery (which needs clay pits,then a potter...and the workers to deliver goods to and from factories,granaries and markets),and so on.As you can see it's a little more involved than shooting someone or running them over. :)

They are truly wonderful and complex games that show just how good games can be.I do think there's a lot of crap out there,but I could say that about movies,tv and music too.If you dig enough you'll find true treasures.

Will they help an actual Mayor? Let's put it this way...they wouldn't hurt his understanding of conflicting needs any. :)

Having said all that,games like this are the exception and not the rule,but they do illustrate perfectly the complexity and thought,the artistic creativity,and the plain old fun factor that games can provide.

[sandnsea]

127. When the players

can destroy your box becaue they don't like the decisions you made - then you might have a useful exercise.

When it gets down to it, it's the "plain old fun factor", and as I said in the beginning, my sons were allowed to choose from any of that "plain old fun" except for single shooter and GTA type games. I termed the lot of it garbage, because "plain old fun", in a lot of forms, has so completely taken over our country and I don't think we're really looking at how it's reshaping us.

I didn't really think about the idea that we're teaching our children that killing people is a GAME, the psychological message of that, until a couple weeks ago. That's actually kind of chilling, when you think about it. Is that subliminal message changing the way people think of humanity and community?? It's worth thinking about and discussing without leaping into censorship territory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. DoD and State run very extreme simmulations

on a regular basis of crisis and crisis management

Some of these game designers (who design your local games) also work for DoD and State designing these very complex simms that can take upwards of a month


Games are not necesarily a waste of time

Oh and role playing is also used to train paramedics and EMTS all the time, as well as other career fields. I mention EMS since I used roleplaying extensively to teach my EMTs and Paramdedics concepts such as triage... and critical decision making

In some ways you want to throw away the baby with the bath water.

yes, there are some games out there that are utter crap... violent and badly written (or coded to boot)... but tehre are some out there that are not crap

I just ask that people pay attention to the rating system

[sandnsea]

129. Is that entertainment?

How many times did I say entertainment again?

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Very actually

whenever I ran those training exercises we were entertained as well as educated

It is all a matter of perspective

Oh and having talked with some of the folks who participate in the DOD and State Department exercises, they all agree that yes there is entertainment in it

Part of it is... it ain't the real deal

I could even tell you stories of training sessions where we stopped and started laughing hard... but those would be ahem inside jokes

I can also tell you that once we were faced with the actual real events things ran much smoother

Oh and finally Harpoon participants at Annapolis not only learn how to cross a T, but also have fun to boot,

[sandnsea]

140. oh good grief

You know what... ignore. The government is not paying for entertainment games. Jeuss fucking christ.

If you blather on like that to your family - it's actually no wonder they don't listen to your opinions on their kids.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. And you are making many assumptions

1.- My brother and my niece DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT live in the US... and that conversation lasted all of ten minutes... We don't talk much if you must pry and it has nothing to do with my blabbering around, but simply we do not share interest or for that matter a common life.

2.- the mean age for gamers in the United States is 32 years old for video games and 33 for paper and pencil games, those are INDUSTRY NUMBERS... I am sure in your knowledge of math, since they used to teach that, you know what MEAN means, just in case, it means that half the players in the United States ARE OLDER than the mean number. So what about them apples?

3.- I know several NAVAL officers who first played Harpoon at Annapolis, yes they are ring knockers, and they do enjoy an afternoon of pushing lead (with the unclassified version for us civilians) They first played it, in one case over 25 years ago, but boy they still enjoy it... is that a problem in your view, and yes DoD payed buckoo bucks for the development of harpoon to train cadets, and it happens to be a blast of a game.

4.- As I said I know several folks who have participated in the simms for both DOD and State Department, and they say that yet it was work (and lots of it) but it was also a blast, as in fun... I mean how many times can you play pretend to be the leader of a nation? And try to get into their head to boot?

5.- Training paramedics and EMTs over ten year, I developed play pretend situations, and during those play pretend one of our goals WAS to have fun. If you make training too rigid and too into the groove, well once you go to the real deal people do not think outside the box... the goal of that training was TO TEACH HOW TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, as the military puts it, train as you fight, fight as you train, in our case, train as you treat, treat as you train.

6.- Most people I know who really are lucky at what they do also have FUN at what they do. They found a way to make their jobs fun.

I have the sneaky suspicion that all you care is about WORK and come from an ethos (that is being replaced) where work is NOT supposed to be fun. And granted most folks don't have fun at work, but the most productive employees I know DO HAVE FUN and like what they do... what a concept huh?

Oh and one last thing, though I agree that we should have a rating system, and that some gmes are NOT meant for kids... I truly disagree with you wiht your assumption that all popular culture is trash. After all, Shakespeare was a popular author in his time, and today he's considered a classic. Hell, if you read anything on the period, you might even conclude he was a hack....

So some of the things you hate... will become classics in their own right... some already have... The Emperor's March from Star Wars comes to mind

[Forkboy]

139. Very valid points.

And I thank you for a very pleasant discussion about the topic.Not many people look at this topic with the attention you do,and I'm grateful that you think about it.It is an important discussion,and like the effects of all "entertainment" it's one worth talking about.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. As I said I work in the industry

and let me tell you, there are some electronic versions of chess out there that will make your blood curl

That said, Chess IS a wargame... so is Warhammer 40K or for that matter several Naval games (of which there are classified and unclassified versions since they are used at Annapolis to train cadets) the level of realism runs the gamut from purely simulated and most 8 year olds who play chess (yes there are some) would never know it is a military simulation, to very raelistic simms used to train troops at places like Ft Hood

But they are in the gamut... Oh I forgot Go, that is another military simulation

Personally I like HG Wells miniatures rule book... the first commerical one, and cute... oh and it requires the use of lead models... ah the grand daddy of all modern sand table games

[sandnsea]

62. Board chess

I was referring to old-fashioned board chess as a military strategy game - as opposed to slash and slaughter video games. There's just no comparison.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Well, I was talking to my brother in law today

about this

He grew up in the 50s, with John Wayne, no vidoe games... and they started playing war very early... kids did back then

The problem is that the best you can hope for is a rating system.

the problems with the rating system is that like all rating systems determined individuals, or stupid ones, will go around them anyway.

But the rating system is your best choice, as well as you being a parent and saying no

Personally I wish more parents KNEW what they were buying for Johnny, instead of asking for these thngs on a platter

[sandnsea]

74. Oh sure

I never had too much problem with that sort of thing. I think it's kids trying to figure out how to control their world. How to come to terms with things like war and crime and whatnot. Video games are an extension of that, to a certain degree. But kids at spontaneous play, where they are re-enacting war or some gangster they heard about from their parents, well that's different than having your parents serve it up to you as a form of entertainment. Paints, fairy tales, and slaughter. Here dear, here's your birthday toys. It really is in a whole other realm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. I'm not sure, it is a different medium

kids in Roman times, if they were patricians, were given a Wooden Gladius when they were old enough to handle it... and I wonder how many eyes were taken out

Kids in the British Empire, the nobility and upper classes, were given toy rifles and toy soliders

Vidoe games are a modern extension of that practice.

That said, we all have to be responsible. And even though I know my niece is playing GTA, she comes to visit and the copy of Castle Wolfenstein on this computer gess removed, and I still think I have taht copy of DOOM somehwere, she won't play it.

There is nothing I can do about GTA, since mom gave it to her, but the others, I have a choice

[Forkboy]

116. Actually there is...see my post #113.

[Forkboy]

113. I wish more parents would do that instead of whining about them afterwards.

After working in a videogame store I can say with full confidence that most parents were incredibly lazy and let their kids pick out pretty much whatever game they wanted,regardless of the rating.I have no pity for those parents when they get home and are upset at the content.

Parents like yourself have a much better approach.A lot of games simply aren't meant for kids,and more parents should be aware of which games those are.And it also depends on how mature one feels their child is.Some thirteen year olds are a lot more mature than others.

I remember watching my nephew play Crazy Taxi when he maybe ten or eleven,and he was giggling like crazy when he ran people over.I said to him,"That may be funny in the game but it's not in real life." He rolled his eyes and said,"Duh,no kidding." I never worried about him after that. :)

[MedleyMisty]

30. My parents took me to Platoon when I was five

I watched Roots before my father died, which means I couldn't have been older than six.

I read Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None at eight, and at nine I read books about the Holocaust. Books intended for an adult audience, with graphic descriptions.

I played Nintendo a lot, but that was in the late 80s and early 90s before games had decent graphics and realistic violence.

I am perfectly fine. I am much less cruel and much more empathetic than a lot of people I know who were put in shells of rainbows and fairy dust as kids.

Personally, when I look at the world, it seems like it's the people who were coddled in pink fluffy blankets as kids who remain inside their fluffy blankets as adults and seem to not realize or at least want to face the reality that yes, there is ugliness and violence in the world and yes, other people do suffer. I am extremely grateful to my mother for letting me be exposed to reality.

Unless you have solid evidence showing that a high percentage of violent crimes were directly influenced by video games, I am going to continue to think that blaming games and books and movies and art for society's ills is just an easy way out for people who don't want to look at themselves and would rather censor and restrict the freedom of others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. And that is what I essentially said

read it again.

One shot solutions to a web of complex reasons for essentially violent crisis will not work, not now, not ever

That said I will stand by the statement that there are certain things a young mind is not ready to see or comprehend

I could offer you World health organization research of children in war zones and how they are affected by the violence, but then again... I guess they are imagining things too... and as to the research on video games, they are spotty at best

Oh and before you accuse me of being coddled... I probably have seen far more violence and ugliness in the flesh, than you can imagine

[Jamastiene]

61. I saw footage of some poor little black kids being attacked

by german shepherds simply because they wanted a chance at a decent education. I saw that on television when I was five years old. I saw Holocaust movies as well and watching the news was a major event around my house growing up. I knew to be quiet and pay attention when the news was on because my mother wanted me to see how the world worked. Reality is what it was called back then, not those shows they call reality today, not that I'm knocking the shows themselves.

Still the point is that, if anything, seeing those things were hard on me then, but led to my having empathy toward other people and their feelings as an adult. I have a better perspective on life because I watched disturbing images as a child, not the other way around. I know to look out for signs that people are not acting right. I know to be wary and cautious. I know that not everything is black and white. There is a lot more in our real lives than ourselves. Others exist in our realm too.

[Jamastiene]

55. That's the one thing I disagree with Al And Tipper Gore over.

I have played some pretty violent video games but I would never dream of shooting up any place in real life. I do not even own a gun now do I intend to go get one. Truth is, video games are video games and real life is real life.

Blaming liberals though, that one, I do not get. How can anyone blame liberals for mass shootings?

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Ask Newt, he did this morning

after all these games are produced by liberals, doncha know?

(Wrong, and I found the Lahaye game just as insulting as... the GTA series)

Google the Power of Nightmares if you really want to understand neocons...

[AZCat]

59. The Lahaye game is far worse.

It offers no compelling storyline or gameplay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. In my mind both are just as bad

they are disturbing

One kill infidels, the other kill cops

Somehow both are disturbing to me

But the point I made is... not only lefty hollywood types code these games, nor are they the only ones playing them

[Zhade]

96. Yeah, kinda like the bible.

:P

[Jamastiene]

63. I am afraid I'd end up in pretty bad shape

mentally if I tried to understand them any more. I used to do that, but now I just take everything they say as more bullshit. I live amidst a bunch of them. Reasoning goes out the window with them in any conversation. Their logic is so flawed, it's pathetic.

[Zhade]

70. Full disclosure: the police killings are either optional, or self-defense.

Not to spoil the ending, but yes you do have to kill two officers - who framed you, had someone you love killed, and are busy trying to kill you themselves.

IIRC (it's been a while) there are no other 'required' killings of police officers. There was, however, a ditch-the-car-in-the-ocean mission I still feel bad about.

That said, it's the woman's fault for not reading the box. The ratings are very clearly marked.

I'll tell you what really fuels these shootings: desperate teens with no real future who realize the media will make them infamous.

It's the media glamorization killing the kids, not the pixels.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. The pixels are part of it

minor as it may be

A far larger role is held by lack of mental health (They don't want to talk about that one)

Bullying in school

Fragile psyches to begin with

Availability of guns (that in my opinion will have to be regulated as well, and licenced)

And something that trigers a perfect storm

The fact that Cho did not play them proves quite possibly the MINOR role these games have in the actual commision of the crime. They have a larger role in other aspects, but they share it with movies (desentization to violence by a population)

As to the media, it is a mixed bag. The shooting was news, even the release of the manifesto... but how do you cover it?

And in this country, we'd rather have them not cover bad news anyhow.

Oh and as to my sister in law, as I said I had a cow... and did make my displeasure well known

[Zhade]

102. I'd say - cover it as news, not sensationalism.

The way these media predators latched onto the story and milked it for every gory, grim detail sickens me.

Save the bullshit unsupported analysis for the bar and report the fucking news - I don't want your opinion!

(I mean the media, not you.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Yes, but we had some people saying that they should

not even report it

All news, from talking to reporters in the field, has an aspect of ghoulishness and sensationalism.

Whether it is the local big fire, or a war, or what have you

And having experienced news in another coutnry... even with the videos and photos, they were mild...

Hell, one day just for fun, watch your local news in English, chanel does not matter, and then watch your local news from another source, locally Spanish news

The same story is covered so different, to the point of what is shown, that it is a study in contrasts

A recent example, we had a murder locally. The Anglo media told us about it, and interviewed the police officers, the Hispanic media did all the above and showed the body... when was the last time you had a good look of a body in the news? (OUtside of Engles extremely well done special on MSNBC?)

In my view they actually protect us too much. We can see the bodies in video games or the movies, but lord help any producer that shows you a real body during the evening news

[Zhade]

108. Worthy points.

NT!

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Well its been fun

but time for me to put nose on grindstone and get some of my work done

Them role playing games, we are going to take over the world

BUAHHAHAHHHAAA

;-)

[gatorboy]

106. If the Republicans truly think that the real problem is parents need to get tougher on their kids.

Then they should probably be kissing Baldwin's ass right about now. :P

[benEzra]

115. Youth violence has declined markedly since FPS games were developed...

I'm not arguing post hoc, ergo prompter hoc,, but you certainly can't claim that video games are "causing youth violence." Youth violence is trending down, not up, long-term, and most of Dave Grossman's work on the topic has IMHO been discredited (never mind Jack Thompson's...).

The people fighting to ban FPS games are little different from the people blaming "Hollywood movies" or "rock and roll music" for "corrupting youth" a generation or two ago, IMO. Same song, different verse.

Most M-rated games are aimed at grownups, anyway. My wife and I have played through Halo 1 and 2 (and are eagerly awaiting Halo 3), and I'm quite a fan of Half Life 2 et seq. (and Forza Motorsports, first-person driving game). At age 36 (Gen-X'er), I'm squarely in the target demographic for most of these games; they're not aimed at "children" any more than R-rated movies are.

[Forkboy]

117. There is still a widely held view by non-gamers that they are just for kids.

Which explains why they get upset over some of the content they see or hear about.The average age of a gamer is what,the late twenties now? The games industry makes billions of dollars a year (more than Hollywood does per year),and there's a ton of games out there for every audience.A lot of crap,a lot of greatness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. 32 is the mean age of gamers

By the way, GTA is far more than juat a FPS and it is rated M

[Forkboy]

125. Yup...I know about GTA...I play it.

And right now I'm deeply immersed in replaying Serious Sam 2,so I know them FPS games pretty well too. :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. I took my grandson to see Raiders of the Lost Ark. He was ~4.

It involves people getting shot...

people being speared...

people being shot with poison darts...

snakes, Jacque, snakes...

people being burned alive...

people eating poisoned figs...

people getting shot some more...

people blowing up...

people getting run over by trucks...

people driving trucks off cliffs...

and people having their faces melted and eyeballs exploded by god.

We had a blast.

Fuck these prudes. Video games are just another form of media, like books. And I don't see much difference in censoring one, or burning the other. Furthermore, Newt Gingrich is in no position to be talking about obscenity.

[meldroc]

120. You forgot about the guy that got chopped up by the airplane propellor.

I saw that movie in the theater when I was eight years old.

GLORIOUS, GLORIOUS VIOLENCE!!!

I'll pass on the nanny-state censorship, thank you!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Damn, I was going to specifically mention that.

Big, beefy Nazi through the propellor.

That was the icing on the cake.

[meldroc]

123. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom is even more fun.

Let's see - you start with poisonings.

Then yet another gunfight.

Eating of everything from snakes to worms to eyeballs to chilled monkey brains

Then a Thuggee style strangulation attempt, followed by an improvised hanging.

Then we get to the good parts.

Snakes and bugs!

Dark Thuggee human sacrifice ritual

Removing a man's beating heart from his chest.

Plunging said man into molten lava.

Whippings

Drinking of blood

Child slavery

Voodoo-doll torture

People getting mashed to paste in a rock crusher.

High speed mine cart chases

More long falls off of cliffs

Being eaten by crocodiles.

Yeah, this is absolutely a must-see movie, especially if you're 4 years old!

[SammyWinstonJack]

131. I think that Newt's Contract on America is too blame, myself. But what do I know?

:shrug: We can all play the blame game. However, repugs seem too be the best at it, without every taking any personal responsibility or accountability for their policies and negative actions against society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. Yes it is part of his war on western culture

peoople have made a reference to it, but the Power of Nightmares is required watching

[Disturbed]

138. Before Vid games, films, radio and books there

was a very small amount of violence. History of the world is pure fiction, folks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. Really? Going all the way to the bronze age ?

why did they develop swords before writing developed?