Well, "Something" Is About To Pass in The Senate.

[MineralMan]

It's certainly not going to be what most of us here want, which is single-payer health care paid for by our taxes, like some other countries have. That's what I want. That's what I've wanted for years.

There was absolutely no chance for single-payer to pass this year. What could pass in the Senate appears to be this current half-assed thing. It benefits some uninsured and uninsurable people, but doesn't provide anything near all the things we want in health care reform.

It is what could pass right now. Next, it will go to the conference committee, where it will change some more. Given the current state of things, it certainly will still not be what we want. It will be what can get through the Congress at this time. No more and no less.

There are many things to dislike in the current bill and the bill that will finally emerge from conference. Opt-outs for paid abortion coverage by states. If you live in a state that opts out that will suck, because you'll have to pay for any abortion yourself. You may, however, be able to get birth control you couldn't get before if you were uninsured. Or, you may have to get it from Planned Parenthood, like people have done for a long time. Personally, I'm going to support an organization that provides charitable funding for individual abortions if this passes.

Mandated coverage is another thing that I don't like. It sucks. However, if subsidies will exist that will enable people to get coverage who don't have it and can't afford it, some will have coverage who would otherwise not. For them, it will be a good thing.

The list of crap and good things goes on and on. Each one can be discussed, complained about, and reviled in some cases.

This is the bill that could get through the Senate, given current Senate rules, current Senators, and all the other political factors that are in play. Anything closer to what we want would not pass at all, as we've seen so many times.

Whatever the conference committee comes up with will be the only thing that will pass both houses. It will not be what we want. It will help some and not help others. But it will help some.

What's next? Next is for all of us to work our butts off to change the climate that limited health care reform to this unsatisfactory package. We need to change the composition of Congress. We need to nominate and elect legislators who will do what we want. In this country, that is the only option we have that can work. We can't change the system without changing the makeup of the system, since the Constitution lays out how the system may be changed, and that is from within the system.

So, the next step is for us to work together to elect people who will vote the way we want them to vote. When we do that, we can get a better system than the one that will pass today. That's how we got civil rights done. That's how we got out of Vietnam. That's how we got Social Security and Medicare, and other things that make the country better than it was before those things happened.

I don't like the bill that will pass the Senate today. I will not like whatever makes it out of conference and gets passed by both houses. I don't think many people do like either one. It's all a big compromise to come up with "something" that will pass.

We can't change that by screaming at each other in this forum. We can only change that by getting people elected who will do what we want. There is no other option.

[niyad]

1. individual mandates that force us to buy that crap, with no cost controls, no oversight, is slavery.

subsidies won't kick in for several years. as it stands now, hcr is nothing but an instrument of slavery to the insurance companies, their christmas gift from a spineless, corrupt congress and a president who didn't bother fighting for us.

[MineralMan]

3. Do the mandates kick in before the subsidies do?

I honestly don't know.

[Lerkfish]

9. if I understand correctly they do

but someone will correct me if wrong I assume

[AndyA]

17. It's also a NEW TAX. We were promised over and over no tax increases unless

you were in the top percentages of income earners. This is a new tax, no way around it. We must pay it, or we get fined. No cost controls, no competition.

Thanks, Obama. Appreciate all that change you've wrought on us.

[MineralMan]

21. Single payer health care would also be a new tax, you know.

It would be a major new tax. Of course, you wouldn't be paying for private insurance, so there would be an offset. But, make no mistake...a publicly funded health care system will involve more taxes. That's how socialism works. There is no free socialism.

[AndyA]

27. The difference between that and what we're about to have shoved up our asses

is bigger than the state of Texas.

With single payer, there is a benefit to every single American. I could accept that. This, I cannot accept: we are being forced to send money to health insurance companies who for decades have made obscene profits by determining who lives and who dies in this country.

They should be charged with murder and locked up, instead of being rewarded with millions of new "customers." (Hostages is probably a better description.)

[clear eye]

30. The huge cost savings would make the taxes considerably less than

the premiums for any comparable private plan now, and even a lower % when compared w/ what such an unavailable Cadillac plan would cost in the future. Isn't that why you support single payer?

[dysfunctional press]

57. the additional taxes for most would be less than their current health insurance premiums.

we already pay a lot more per capita for healthcare than countries with single payer.
insurance company profits are a very big part of the difference.

[Nikki Stone1]

35. Amen

.

[Hekate]

45. Cost controls and oversight are built in. See link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=71246&mesg_id=71246
Note: You can hear the conference call at the link below...
http://crooksandliars.com/node/33576

[dkf]

2. Even if you have coverage birth control isn't cheap.

But that's not what abortion is all about to me anyway. Really it is all about health, because any woman can have a pregnancy gone horribly wrong and THAT is what health insurance for these procedures is truly about.

[MineralMan]

10. It isn't cheap. You're right. It should be.

As far as the abortions go, many states will fund them. Others will not. I propose that a non-profit accept contributions to fund abortions. It will get my donations, I guarantee. I can afford to fund one abortion annually, and will pledge to do so.

Not ideal, by any means, but I will certainly do that. We also need a cheap source of contraceptive funding for people who can't afford it. Of course, we also need men to step up and roll on a condom. I've used that method without fail and without failure for decades.

I don't like this bill. I'm just saying that it's what will get through. Nothing better will. Those are the facts right now. I'll be working, as I always have, to get better legislators.

[dkf]

15. I'm learning that getting better legislators doesn't mean getting Democrats into office.

Its actually about getting better Democrats.

I am SOOOO ready to draft Howard Dean and get the old DFA going. Screw the DLC gang. They suck.

[MineralMan]

23. Yes, indeed. Better Democrats.

If we had six better Democrats in the Senate, the bill would look very different. Surely we can manage to replace half a dozen bad Democrats with better ones. Surely...

[sandnsea]

12. And that will still be covered n/t

[janx]

4. "this current half-assed thing"

:rofl: !

[kenny blankenship]

42. It's a corporatist poisoned chalice that they'll shove on us now

in order to make it nearly impossible to pass a real HEALTH CARE REFORM later.

[ananda]

5. It's a horrible bill and NOT about healthcare.

It's about profits for insurance companies and pharma
and the legislators they own.

[still_one]

6. If this bill passes, it will be a Democratic bill, and they can't get away from that, especially

in the upcoming elections. Will that hurt or help them, I don't know, but even by your words you indicate you don't think many people are going to like it. Unless it can be changed before the next election, I don't know how well Democrats will be able to defend the HCR Act, which will be labelled as a Democratic or "left" wing bill by our opponents, and media, even though that is a total misrepresentation

The whole legislative process favors corporate lobbyists, not populous

[MineralMan]

18. I think there may be an answer to that. Given the total

obstructionism of the Republicans toward any sort of health care reform, we have a serious campaign position that can be taken. In this situation, campaigning against the "Party of NO" is a viable option, I think.

I believe that Congress does not understand the public's position with regard to health care reform. Perhaps they will after 2010 if we all do what's needed. If we don't, then I'd agree with you. If we do, I think public opinion will favor progressive candidates.

[still_one]

20. I understand that, but unless that is explained simply and clearly, not with a Kerry nuance, people

will tune it out

Most people don't understand the so-called Democratic majority in Congress. It is tenuous at best in the Senate, and only because 2 independents choose to stand with the Democrats, and Specter, changed his party

[MineralMan]

24. Maybe that's our job. Maybe we need to make explaining that

our priority in 2010. I'm saying that we cannot rely on others to do what needs to be done. There's a lot of talent here on DU. I work on campaigns. I caucus for candidates during the primary period. Next year, I'm putting my name in for board positions in the Democratic Party here in MN. I can get my precinct board for sure, since nobody even holds the chairman's position right now. I can probably get on the next level's board.

We got Al Franken elected by busting our asses to get him the nomination, then busting our asses to get him elected. I'm proposing that people do the same in states where we have bad Democrats in all levels of government.

If we can write posts on DU, we can work in our local political environment. It worked in Minnesota in 2008. No reason it can't work elsewhere.

[still_one]

29. It has to be, because our elected representatives aren't doing a very good job of it /nt

[Laelth]

7. Kill the bill. It stinks.

If this is all that can be passed this year, fine. I accept that. So then kill it. This bill is not good enough.

The electorate will crucify the Democratic Party for the individual mandate (and rightly so). The insurance companies will be enriched and strengthened by this bill. What we are getting out of this bill is not enough to justify those costs.

:dem:

-Laelth

[phasma ex machina]

50. The Senate probably thinks its own crap doesn't stink. nt

[nightrain]

8. the problem is that if this crap passes, it sets us on a road that in the future

will be very difficult to turn around. Congress proposes subsidizing PRIVATE health insurance. If in the future Congres decides to try for a more universal single payer, it will be very difficult to remove the private insurance single payer. They will be even further entrenched. It's a horrible precedent and policy decision.

[MineralMan]

16. I hope that's not the case. I can see how a public option could

be easily inserted within the framework here at another time. If we had the right people in Congress, that would not be difficult. That's what I want to see happen. Well, what I really want to see happen is a national health care system, funded by taxation. That's even further down the road...I hope it is, at least.

[nightrain]

31. certainly not likely to "easily insert" a more public option when

the insurance corporations have just gotten a slew of new influx of publicly-subsidized enrollees! I think you are being very unrealistic!

This policy change of supporting private insurance will be more difficult to turn in the future. The corporations won't give up any more easily then than now, right?

[BP2]

22. If they can't get single payer now

do we think it's going to get any easier in the future?!

It's NOT.

We'll be stuck with the crap in this bill.

[MineralMan]

25. Only if we allow bad Democrats to remain in office.

We can change who sits in Congress. Al Franken proves that. I can tell you exactly how he won the Senate race here. It takes hard work and hard work that starts months before the election. It worked. It works.

[nightrain]

32. there will always be "bad" (corporate) Democrats in Congress!

[MineralMan]

39. Then it's hopeless?

Al Franken.

[nightrain]

40. Kill this farce. Start over. It's a horrible policy precedent to force people to buy PRIVATE

insurance, and to ONLY subsidize PRIVATE insurance without any true option.

[MineralMan]

47. I'm afraid the time has passed to do that.

So, what I'm talking about is what to do next. This is not a thread about the current bill. It is a thread about political activism in future elections to get better Congress people. How do you feel about that?

[nightrain]

64. you can't control where people take a thread. No bill has been signed.

You don't control the thread or the responses, what people want to say.

[phasma ex machina]

51. Senatorial bowel movement alert! nt

[msongs]

11. remove everything that benefits death care corps. then send it back to the senate nt

[MineralMan]

26. You don't understand. That would not pass this Senate.

What will is what's about to. We need to change the Senate. It is that simple.

[shadowknows69]

13. I don't sit here just griping on election day. I vote. Garbage in garbage out.

[MineralMan]

19. Election day is far too late. Voting is far too little.

It's good that you vote, of course. But that does nothing to move things. Work does. If you really want change, you must work for it in ways other than just showing up at the polls. Voting is too little, too late. It is what happens during the year before the election that matters, not election day.

[shadowknows69]

59. Suggestions? I call and write Congress critters that have deemed me irrelevant.

My body is too messed up to march and I have no money to offer progressive candidates. About all I got left is my vote and to continue to hold our (reps) feet to the fire to other Democrats because that's the first place we have to win this fight.

[HopeHoops]

14. Gas?

[KansDem]

28. !!!

:rofl:

With all that gas coming out of DC you'd think we could heat our homes during the winter without busting our household budgets!

[ShortnFiery]

33. We need to vote out all these Corporatist Democrats in the Senate.

Our damn party has become too big of TENT when the Insurance Cartel, Banksters and corporations comprising the MIC OWNS OUR "DEMOCRATIC" SENATORS

[MineralMan]

38. That's it. Now, what will you be doing in your state to do

exactly that? That's the real question. Voting is too late. Someone has to be nominated. That's up to you in your state. So, what will you do?

[Mari333]

34. that 'something' passing through the bowels of the senate

seems to be more fecal matter.

[JVS]

36. This bill is worse than nothing because it strengthens the same entities that undermine public...

access to health care. It is a sick appeasement.

[MineralMan]

48. Yes. That's what I said, basically.

Now, what about my suggestions about how to get better people elected? That's what this thread is actually about.

[JVS]

52. I think it's overly simplistic.

It appears that all the progressive legislators have been brought into line by the "moderate pragmatists". This means that we have no representatives willing to stick up for us. The Democratic party gets a lot from our work, and I don't think that we can expect them to stop exploiting us unless we leave the party or take a hammer to the right wing of the party.

[MineralMan]

54. I'm not saying it's easy. It's not. It's not going to all happen in

2010, either.

In the 2008 Senate election in Minnesota, there were a couple of possible outcomes. The race could have gone either to Norm Coleman, an asshole Republican of the worst kind. Or, it could have gone to Al Franken, a progressive Democrat with no experience in elective office. The odds were pretty good that Coleman would win. There were a couple of other Democrats, but they would have lost to Coleman in a landslide.

What happened was that a bunch of dewy-eyed college kids, along with a few aging hippies like me and many others decided that we'd all go to the precinct caucuses and get Franken nominated as the candidate. The Franken campaign held caucus training sessions, which were well-attended, and where the caucus system was explained and methods for getting what you wanted at the caucuses discussed. I was a newcomer to MN, and had never been in a caucus state. I had worked in the more traditional Democratic Party organization in California, so this was all new to me.

Well, we went to the caucuses and discovered that we could, indeed, make Franken the candidate, so we did that, from the precinct level to the state DFL convention. Then, we worked during the campaign to get the man elected. It almost didn't work, mostly due to an error on the part of the Franken campaign team, which didn't align itself well enough with the Obama campaign and lost a lot of votes when people who had never voted before voted for Obama but didn't vote in any other races. But, we won anyhow, in the tightest election I had ever seen.

So, instead of a knee-jerk GOP tool in the Senate, we now have Al Franken there. He's pretty popular now in the state, and will probably win again easily if he chooses to stand for re-election.

My point is that a lot of people, including a lot of old-line DFL people here in MN said that Franken could not get nominated and, if he got nominated, he couldn't win. They had just about given up that seat to a creep. It didn't happen that way. The reason it didn't was that Franken was a good campaigner and he had the support of a bunch of people who realized that it was going to take a steady effort over many months to get the man elected. And we did it.

So, simplistic? Sure. It's grassroots politics. It works. But saying it won't work is the first step to not working on it. I'm saying that we have to stop saying that and go after some races. We're only about six Senators short of getting something a lot more progressive in the health care reform arena. We can do it. But, if we say we can't, or that the solution is too simplistic to work, then we surely will fail.

Al Franken. There's the answer to your criticism. Al Franken.

[crispini]

37. Why are people unrecommending this?

It's incredibly good sense. Instead of screaming at each other on the forum, work to get real progressives elected. That is why funding for Clean Elections is the best, the most important issue on our plates today.

[MineralMan]

41. I don't care about unrecs. This was posted to generate discussion,

not to get on the Greatest Page. The whole rec/unrec thing is bullshit. Some people don't like my suggestion that we can make changes through hard work to nominate and elect better people than we have now, I think. That's why the unrecs.

If they're not willing to bust their asses to find better candidates and get them elected, then they're irrelevant to the process. My plan, from here on out, is to ignore them completely and keep calling for people to get involved and work to elect progressives instead of complaining that non-progressives hold office.

It's that simple. They can unrecommend as many of my threads as they wish. That's not why I'm posting.

Something will pass in the Senate. Something will come out of conference. Something will probably pass both houses. It will be a crappy bill, but it will pass. Now, we need to see to it that the current situation does not continue. The only, and I repeat, only way that can happen is if we get better people into office. There is only one way to do that, too, and DU posts aren't going to do it.

I keep mentioning Al Franken. I do that because he got elected because people did just what I'm advocating. It works. It can work elsewhere.

[crispini]

44. Well, more power to you.

May I suggest, since you are of a pragmatist bent, that you look into Clean Elections? Getting money out of politics will only help our cause. I am involved in a local effort. It's slow work but I think it's really worth it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Elections

[MineralMan]

46. I'll check into that. Most of my efforts are in

local politics, working in races long before the election. I agree that we need to completely change campaign financing. I'm hoping that getting better people elected will help accomplish that.

[crispini]

68. Yeah I work in local races too.

But it's kind of a chicken and egg thing.... good local people can't get elected without financing. I worked on a state house race here and we were outspent, over $800,000 to our $150,000. Hard to win when you're that outgunned.

[MineralMan]

43. This OP is not about the health care bill. That's over.

Something is going to pass, and it's not going to be what we want. This OP is about how to fix the situation that caused this. There are many threads about what is wrong and right about the current bill. This isn't one of those, or wasn't intended to be.

[davsand]

53. Sometimes half of the loaf is all you are able to get.

You celebrate what you were able to accomplish, take a deep breath, and pick up the fight again knowing you are still in the game and ABLE the keep fighting. I learned that lesson a long time ago in the context of ANY organizing or political agenda.

Yep, this is most certainly not the reform I personally wanted. It is, however, what we got and it IS an improvement over where we were at Jan One of this year. Celebrate that and start busting ass to get rid of the Dem snakes that screwed our nation this time around. We know now who they are, and we can begin to work on that.

We also can start working on individual bills to modify this mess and move it closer to what we want to see. There is NOTHING that says we can't go back in there and try to limit the amount of damage caused by the weaker portions of this bill. Again, you gotta take what you can get and keep on working toward what you need.

I sat in a room full of Democats last night discussing plans for the next round of elections. THAT is how this stuff works and you cannot forget that. The most dangerous time of all is when you think you can afford to give up or when you think it isn't worth it to keep going.


Laura

[MineralMan]

55. Absolutely. This battle is over. The next battle is

just beginning. If we give up now, we lose for a long, long time. Thanks!

[cliffordu]

49. Something is about to pass my cat, too.

I'll bet it isn't as nasty as that bill, though...

[MineralMan]

56. So, what's your plan for getting better people into the Senate?

That's what this OP is about.

[cliffordu]

61. I'll support who I think will get the job done - with the meager resources I have and

I'll continue to be a dead weight on the good thinking and correct citizens of our fine country, and I'll continue to puncture gasbags wherever I find them.

[phasma ex machina]

58. The Bill

In the beginning was the Bill.

And then came the Assumptions.

And the Assumptions were without form.

And darkness was upon the face of the Tea Baggers.

And they spoke among themselves, saying, "It is a crock of shit, and it stinketh."

And the Tea Baggers went unto Left Baggers and said, "It is a pail of dung, and none may abide the odour thereof."

And the Left Baggers went unto their Representatives, saying, "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it."

And the Representatives went unto their Senators, saying, "It is a vessel of fertiliser, and none may abide its strength."

And the Senators spoke amongst themselves, saying one to another, "It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."

And the Senators then went onto the Vice President, saying unto them, "It promotes growth and is very powerful."

And the Vice President went unto the President, saying unto him, "This new bill will actively promote the growth and vigour of the country; with powerful effects."

And the President looked upon the Bill, and saw that it was good.

And the Bill became Law.

This is How Shit Happens.

[HuckleB]

60. K & R.

Now if I could be as calm as you in the face of all the BS hyperbole at DU.

[DireStrike]

62. THANK GOD IT PASSED 2: THE THANKENING

[CaliforniaPeggy]

63. You said it, and that is correct.

K&R

[MineralMan]

67. My dear Peggy,

Thanks!!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. When it passes, it should be delivered to the President's desk in a bedpan.

[SoCalDem]

66. like hoping for a cute little baby, and getting a jagged kidney stone instead

both "pass"..:(

[Wardoc]

69. This isn't a modest win. It is a terrible loss.

Product A is determined to be terribly flawed. The whole justification for reform is to fix Product A.

Government says "The solution is that everyone must now buy Product A".

WTF???? WTF????? WTF??????


If you work for the insurance companies, it must be pretty sweet. Everyone else loses.