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Mandates, subsidies, show me your poverty... Prove you need it

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 09:40 AM
Original message
Mandates, subsidies, show me your poverty... Prove you need it
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 09:44 AM by SoCalDem
If the eventual bill requires everyone to "show proof of insurance", it really just means that a whole new level of scrutiny has been introduced into society, and the fact that the "fessing-up" will come via the IRS, makes it even more onerous.

Here's why:

In civilized nations, they have embraced the "macro" sensibility toward their health-care mandate. Whatever the cost to the nation, for health care, is, it's levied on the population via a progressive taxation system, and paid though taxes withheld from their salaries. No muss, no fuss. Their lives remain the same...no frantic phone calling, or internet surfing, looking for a "deal"..no fine print to wade through. When they go to a doctor, they do not fear rejection because that particular doctor does not "take" their insurance plan. They do not fear the mailman, who may be bringing them bills for "services not covered".

The macro approach, also gives an amount of dignity to the poor, since they receive their care the same way they have always gotten it...through the local service organization .... they have already proved they are poor, so any new service that comes along, probably automatically includes them.

The micro- approach we seem to be embracing , naturally pits people against each other, since we will still be using a monopolistic private system, and at every step of the way, we must "prove" we are worthy.

Insurance companies are used to reaping HUGE profits, and any government rules that might cut into those profits, will be met with a new level of devious tactics. Their sudden focus on "wellness" is going to turn out to be a witch-hunt of sorts, to help them weed out the undesirables ... the diabetics, the overweight, the smokers, drinkers, the ones with high cholesterol, the 45-64 yr olds who are going to be "costly".

When 300 million are covered , it's a LOT harder to focus in on the "bad" ones, and to pit them against the "good" ones, so the bad ones can be blamed for the expense.

The "subsidy", too is likely to be a "tax-credit", and not a real subsidy, via reduced monthly-payment, and you can bet that to qualify, you will have many flaming hoops to jump through. The subsidy (as far as I've been able to discern) depends on where you live+ your income..I can see many nightmarish calculations ahead for LOTS of people. What if you work in State "A", and you qualify, but then you move to State "B", where you do NOT? A CNN newsette gave an "example" last week, of a guy with a wife & two kids, whose subsidy would be $700........not per month... for the year, via a tax credit.. $58.33 a month is not likely to be the amount that's keeping them from having insurance.

For most people, who want decent insurance, you're looking at the equivalent of adding 2-3 car payments to a budget.. How many people can afford that?

You can also bet there will be a lot more paperwork ahead, just to claim a subsidy..and when you try to GET a subsidy, it will probably end up a lot like a trip to the principal's office, where you sit down and show them all your finances, and prove to them that you really cannot afford the premiums.

Count on a lot of "counseling", from the ones doling out the subsidy..counseling that may tell you that you are not spending your money wisely, and need to stop doing this or that. The privacy-freaks will have meltdowns.

The macro approach, via a static assessment for each person, based on their income, and withheld through paychecks, without the invasive scrutiny seems to be a better way. The people who want supplemental coverage for the "gaps", can subject themselves to the actuarial/nitpicky scrutiny.



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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. And the news on HCR just keeps getting worse.
Thanks for helping us know what is in store, anyway.
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Ex Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. another excellent point
what exactly did we vote for a year ago last November, anyway?
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. This is a wake up call... Do we want the IRS deciding if we are paying our fair share to
big insurance?
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. This is a huge question I've had. If the subsidy come in the form of a tax credit,
doesn't that mean people will have to pony up initially and the tax credit will reimburse them? If that's the case we're going to have a whole bunch who will never be able to get the insurance cause they can't afford the initial outlay.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I was just thinking that. What if you are unemployed - how does a
tax credit help if you don't pay taxes anyway?
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. you would probably be on medicaid if you were unemployed
but heaven help you , if you had anything of worth, that might disqualify you for even getting on medicaid..
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. If you're drawing unemployment of more that $277 per week you won't qualify for Medicaid
I guess you would be filing taxes, don't know. Never have gotten unemployment. But, still, people who need a subsidy need it cause they can't afford the damned insurance. How do they pay it while waiting for the government to reimburse in a tax credit. That was one of the problems I saw with McCain's proposal to provide people with a tax credit to buy their own insurance.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Is unemployment & disability taxable? If it is, that really sucks.
:shrug:
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I don't know but, unless they have some other mechaism for getting the subsidy to people,
this is a big ole bombshell waiting to go off on people who will be thinking they'll have health insurance. If you're uninsured and living paycheck to paycheck, how do you pony up all year while waiting on that tax credit. And, as you mentioned, what about unemployed?
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BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. Thank you!
Those who keep saying this bill is "better than nothing" must either be independently wealthy or completely clueless. Unless the subsidy is paid directly to the insurance companies up front people who are living hand to mouth are going to be fooked while waiting for their once a year subsidy...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Bingo!
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 10:19 AM by SoCalDem
The cost of the insurance will NOT be going down...and if you have to wait until next April to get a "credit", how is that helping you in July when you cannot afford the monthly premiums?

the example I gave was for a guy who made $54K a year, and he qualified for $700 a year... What about the person who only makes $25K a year? The monthly payment due to the insurance company will not be reduced because he/she makes less...so no amount of "subsidy" looming ahead at tax time will help that person afford or even justify paying an insurance premium every month (especially since it's likely to be more than they even take home in their paychecks)
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I seem to recall reading something a while back that
suggested the subsidy would not go to people - but to the insurance companies. Government payments to them to offset the reduction in the premium payment.

Given the government's desire to offer piles of cash to corporations without question, giving the money direct to the insurance companies sounds about right.

:(
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. and then we trust them to assure us that our payments were reduced?
The IRS is a part of the policing entity, and the words "tax credit" have been used.. how does that mesh with it all going through the insurance companies?
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I don't know. I saw the reference here (on DU) but I can't
find the thread (given the number of threads on this topic that have been locked, I'm not surprised I can't find it).

Looking at the bill, I think this might be the right section (sec. 3111 on page 79 of the pdf I'm looking at):

‘‘(b) PAYMENT OF CREDITS.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary shall, with respect to an eligible individual (as defined in sub82 O:\BAI\BAI09A84.xml S.L.C. section (i)) and on behalf of such individual, pay a premium credit to the Gateway through which the individual is enrolled in the qualified health plan involved. Such Gateway shall remit an amount equal to such credit to the qualified health plan in which such individual is enrolled.



I don't see any monies going to people - the feds give the money to the states and the states give the money to the insurance companies.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I guess we'll all find out soon enough
:scared:
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes. Sadly.
This is a very bad thing they're doing - unless you're a health insurance CEO.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. There will be many just paying the fine
losing their earned income credit or their federal refund in order to pay a penalty of not being able to afford health insurance.

Raising taxes on the poor.

Chains we can believe in.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. It's only $95 the first year, so I see that happening too
and even as it increases, it;s still probably going to be cheaper than the premiums.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
13. Liberal programs have created some of the doors through which the police state has entered.
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 10:31 AM by lostnfound
Welfare becomes an excuse for police to look in the bedroom dresser drawers to see if single moms have a man living there.
Flex spending accounts give the govt a database on our personal medical histories.
I'm sure there's more.
Every expansion of government power and every personal income tax deduction creates opportunities for further control.
On edit: Not to say we should have those programs, just that we should be aware of the monsters that are being created and look for alternative ways of doing it. Also, decentralized power is better, in my opinion. Keep things human-scale.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Sadly, we have a lot of wolves in sheeps' clothing
and they sell us out at every turn. NAFTA was a prime example of that.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. Tax credits are a rich person's idea of "help"
During the months when business is down, knowing that there's a tax credit that I can take next year does NOT help me afford the insurance premium. (And as a self-employed person, I can already deduct the full cost of my insurance--and it still doesn't help month to month.)
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Dahlink..can't you just donate one of the Monets at a charity event
and then deduct it?
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. Also not factored in is the current medical bills a person has already racked up.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. and their shrinking credit "available" on what cards they currently still have
Edited on Sun Dec-20-09 10:11 AM by SoCalDem
My friend had to go to the dentist the other day, and of course her dentist suggested that she put the $1100.00 he was planning to charge her, "on one of her cards".. She just told him.. "I have NO credit cards anymore" .. So he offered to fix the tooth causing her pain, and then she could "wait" for the other necessary work....but he needed a check for $220.00 when he does the work...so she went home and took some aspirin:(

After the holidays she's going to try to get into Loma Linda's Dental school..but that take a while to get an appointment, and it means taking a day off work, since those appointments take a LONG time..
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Oh, I hope she gets into the dental school quickly.
Tooth pain is horrible to try to live with. :(
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madville Donating Member (743 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
24. Some people have no idea what is about to happen
We'll have plenty of time to see what is in the final bill before it kicks in over the next 5 years or so. People just casually claim that ones with middle/lower/no income will get subsidies or should be on medicaid, they have no idea what it's like dealing with government bureaucracy and welfare/benefits programs.

They will have asset ceilings, they don't just factor current income into the equation when seeing if one qualifies for benefits, they factor in all your assets. What do you own? What does everyone else in your household own? What is the income of everyone in your household? Please bring all your tax returns, bank statements, 401k statements, list of all safety deposit box contents and a notarized affidavit detailing all holdings or assets with value(jewelry, bonds, cash, etc.).

Once we see the actual details of a final bill people can start looking for the loopholes and figuring out how to beat the system. The killer here is the IRS will be doing the enforcement, this HCR debacle is going to cost a a bunch of people money who don't have it and is going to create many new potential criminals(tax cheats, making false statements to the government, etc).
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