DFA: Bill doesn't really "cover" 30 million more...just fines them if they don't buy insurance

[madfloridian]

Email from Jim Dean today about the health care bill without the public option.

If Democrats remove the choice of a public option, they can't force Americans to buy health insurance.

Here's the deal, Senate leaders are all over Washington claiming they finally have a healthcare reform bill they can pass, as long as they remove the public option. After all, they say, even without a public option, the bill still "covers 30 million more Americans." The problem is that's not really true.

What they are actually talking about is something called the "individual mandate." That's a section of the law that requires every single American buy health insurance or break the law and face penalties and fines. So, the bill doesn't actually "cover" 30 million more Americans -- instead it makes them criminals if they don't buy insurance from the same companies that got us into this mess.

A public option would have provided the competition needed to drive down costs and improve coverage. It would have kept insurance companies honest by providing an affordable alternative Americans can trust. That's why, without a public option, this bill is almost a trillion dollar taxpayer giveaway to insurance companies.

More in the email:

Without the choice of a public option, forcing Americans to buy health insurance isn't just bad policy, it's political disaster for Democrats -- a ticking time-bomb for years to come.

Does anyone think Republicans won't use this against Democrats in 2010?

What about in 2014 after the mandate goes into effect and the press reports all the horror stories of Americans forced to choose between paying their monthly health insurance bill to Aetna or paying rent?

The mandate is toxic and Democrats will own it. By the 2016 presidential election, is there any wonder how this will play out for Democrats?

Also some major unions are withholding support for now and calling meetings. They will probably all fall in line though.

From TPM:

Major labor groups withhold support for Senate bill for now

The SEIU was supposed to join AARP and pro-reform organizations this morning in urging an end to the filibuster of the Senate health care bill. But they didn't show.

It turns out that they're not so sure they want to give the bill their implicit endorsement.

"We were supposed to do a press conference this morning with AARP, etc. around supporting the cloture vote," says an SEIU official. "We decided yesterday that it would be imprudent."

"Tonight, we're holding an emergency meeting with our executive board...to at least start the discussion of how we are to proceed," the official said. "It's a come to Jesus moment."

By what the official insists is a complete coincidence, the AFL-CIO is holding a similar meeting.

An official with AFL says the group's executive council is weighing the pros, cons, and unknowns in the Senate bill, as they determine their official position. The council could ultimately "oppose, support, or be neutral" to the bill.

How does one weigh unknowns?

[polichick]

1. Good post - a mandate without a strong p.o. is insane, as well as political suicide. nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. Any form of mandate is political suicide

It's not rocket science to know that this will be the case when people are fined for not tithing to Aetna or Blue Shield.

[Zodiak]

7. And it plays into right-wing frames

"The Democrats want to FORCE you to buy health insurance you cannot afford"

...and they would be right.

Democrats are so feckless.

[madfloridian]

11. That is right about the right wing frames.

:hi:

[atreides1]

8. Political Suicide

Is what happens when you govern without leadership!!!

[polichick]

9. Yep - what a mess! nt

[tomm2thumbs]

62. Political Suicide is absolutely correct - both the left & right unite against this sh*t

this has to end

[daa]

2. I agree nt

[pleah]

3. K&R

[Zodiak]

5. Agreed....it's a corporate giveaway

And it makes criminals out of our uninsured.

It's a goddamned fascist bill, and I understand unions being against it....who wants the benefits they fought hard for suddenly taxed as if getting good healthcare is WRONG?

I hope everyone tells the Democrats to fuck off with this piece of shit corporate legislation.

[janx]

6. K&R

[kestrel91316]

10. Paying a fine does NOT confer coverage, either. You still don't have

coverage, and you are even LESS able to cover it after paying the fine.

This is the dumbest idea I have ever heard of.

[area51]

58. Exactly.

The whole frickin' point was to get people healthcare ... fining them, making them poorer, and they'll still not have healthcare: that's insane, and nothing more than complete cruelty/barbarism.

[David Zephyr]

12. K&R.

.

[Shagbark Hickory]

13. Could also be worded "SAVES OR CREATES 30 million new policies"

It doesn't mean there will only be 15 million people without insurance.

[madfloridian]

16. Exactly.

.

[debbierlus]

14. Exceptional post and crucial points.

[madfloridian]

17. I fear that there will be a massive effort now to discredit the Deans.

Even here at a Dem forum.

[Vinnie From Indy]

15. All of the so-called GOOD provisions are smoke

People are dreaming if they think the health insurance companies are going to abide by these silly provisions. They have already cooked up dozens of ways to get around each and every one of the provisions that get in the way of the multi-million dollars a year compensation packages doled out to upper management. If it comes down to granny's liver transplant or keeping the ocean-side condo, granny is a goner!

[madfloridian]

18. Agreed.

[bertman]

20. If it comes down to granny's liver transplant or keeping the ocean-side condo, granny is a goner!

LOVE that one, Vinnie!

Recced this thread.

[Vidar]

19. K&R.

[BzaDem]

21. Why does DU even allow this garbage to be posted?

Did I miss something? Is disinformation from Jim Dean somehow better than disinformation from redstate or free republic?

The reason the bill covers 30 million more people is not the mandate. It is the subsidies. It will dramatically reduce the price of insurance for millions of people. People up to 400% poverty will no longer pay more than 9.8% of their income for premiums -- and people below 300% will pay even less than 9.8%. Because of the subsidies. The article doesn't mention this at all. The 30 million figure comes from the CBO, and the CBO came up with this figure by analyzing the SUBSIDIES.

And the idea that this bill criminalizes not buying health insurance is bullshit worthy of Rush Limbaugh. If one doesn't buy health insurance, there is a SLIGHT additional tax (ranging from 200 to 700 dollars per year). It isn't even a fine -- it is a tax. Saying this bill criminalizes not having health insurance is like saying you are a criminal if you don't have children, because taxes for those who don't have children are $1000 higher per child one does not have.

And not only that -- people get something for their $700 dollar tax. They will now have the right to wait to purchase health insurance until the moment they are sick, and get reimbursed just as if they had it all along. As opposed to now, where if you wait to purchase health insurance until the moment you are sick, you will have to bankrupt yourself to afford it.

[madfloridian]

22. If you think this is garbage, then tell the proper authorities.

If there is a mandate there should be a choice besides private insurance, and there is not. You have to buy from a private insurance, and apparently there are few cost controls.

When you fine or penalize someone it is making it a crime.

I just did a search on CBO and I can't find their opinion on the latest version without the Medicare buy in and without the public option.

Do you have a link?

[BzaDem]

25. "If there is a mandate there should be a choice besides private insurance, and there is not."

Of course there should be! That doesn't change the fact that there NOT being a choice does not make this a CRIME.

Are you seriously prepared to say that it is illegal to not have children? Solely because people without children pay a 1000 dollar higher tax than people with children? The mandate is simply a tax differential, which happens to be smaller than the differential for having children.

[madfloridian]

26. I am backing off from you.

How did you get from health care to not having children...your anger bothers me.

[BzaDem]

27. I know you don't like the analogy. That was the POINT.

I am analogizing something that you don't support to something that you would obviously support, to show you why your logic is wrong.

So if you won't answer (and I doubt you will), maybe someone else will. How is it a CRIME to charge people 700 more in taxes for not having health insurance, when it is obviously not a CRIME to charge people 1000 more in taxes for not having a child?

[Mithreal]

42. Have fun selling your spin to the American public

[nashville_brook]

28. that's a powerful explanation/analogy.

that's a long way from what it actually looks like, which is a government-mandated extortion racket to enrich insurance companies.

[BzaDem]

30. Thank you.

Given that your subject is true and your actual post is bullshit, I'll just respond to your subject. :)

[undeterred]

29. Yes, you missed something.

[grahamhgreen]

39. HORSEHOCKEY! The bill simply - connivingly - untruthfully - calls the fine a tax - it is not, if

it were, then the 'tax' would go toward covering your premiums - it does not.

It is a game. A con game. 2,000 pages of obfuscation and bullshit aimed at fucking people over.

All the crapsurance subsidies will do is create thousands of fly-by-night subsidiaries of big insurance that prevent the poor from being fined - BUT WILL NEVER PAY SIGNIFICANTLY.

IT IS THE ENRONIZATION of insurance - the gaming of the system, the financial services modernization act for insurance that is a hard core "fuck you stupid mother fuckers we are so much more clever than you that you will never figured out we've screwed you until it is to late he he" to the American people.

[Ignis]

63. This! You think the average voter is going to get this distinction?

Not if Uncle Rupert's Fauxites have anything to say about it! They'll latch onto this and beat it to death.

What a tin-eared move. :(

[eridani]

45. The subsidies are going to get shitcanned eventually for deficit control

Don't believe it? This is just what MA is now doing. You are also neglecting the fact that the subsidy is only available for SHITTY underinsurance--the exact same kind of insurance that drives people into medical bankruptcy right now. You are still on the hook for co-pays and deductibles which can jack your total medical expenses to 20% or more of your income.

[madfloridian]

47. Good points.

I fear you are right.

[JDPriestly]

50. Poverty guidelines 2009

The 2009 Poverty Guidelines for the
48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia
Persons in family Poverty guideline
1 $10,830
2 14,570
3 18,310
4 22,050
5 25,790
6 29,530
7 33,270
8 37,010
For families with more than 8 persons, add $3,740 for each additional person.
2009 Poverty Guidelines for
Alaska
Persons in family Poverty guideline
1 $13,530
2 18,210
3 22,890
4 27,570
5 32,250
6 36,930
7 41,610
8 46,290
For families with more than 8 persons, add $4,680 for each additional person.
2009 Poverty Guidelines for
Hawaii
Persons in family Poverty guideline
1 $12,460
2 16,760
3 21,060
4 25,360
5 29,660
6 33,960
7 38,260
8 42,560
For families with more than 8 persons, add $4,300 for each additional person.

So, what happens to a couple on the mainland with an income of over $70,000. That means that each partner is earning all of $35,000 each, not a lot in California, I assure you. The subsidies will help the very poor, but the middle class will have to pick up the tab for the poor. I would prefer it if the wealthy picked up that tab. Judging from how Obama did a turn-about on health care insurance, I don't expect much from him on tax reform.

In addition, there is the problem that people, apparently regardless of income, will have to pay not just for higher ever higher health insurance premiums but also for co-payments and other costs. So, health insurance could cost a couple earning $70,000 a year a lot more with this bill than without it.

[Jamastiene]

53. You must not know the IRS very well.

Look up Section 7203 and Section 7201

Here are links:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00007201----000-.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00007203----000-.html

So, there will be a tax if you don't buy the mandated health insurance and possible prison time of from 1 to 5 years if you don't pay the "tax" for not buying the health insurance. It definitely CAN and DOES land people in prison.

[Egnever]

54. Yes disinformation here is every bit as welcome

as it is in freeperland. It is becoming quite fashionable to post it so long as it makes Obama look bad.

The fact that DFA is posting it saddens me. You are right they should be honest and include the info you have and when they dont it reduces them to limbaugh level in my eyes.

It seems no one is to be trusted when it comes to this bill, I am waiting to get my hands on it so I can read it myself.

[Techn0Girl]

64. "Why does DU Allow this to be Posted".... I'm guessing because it's true.

Open your eyes and wake up.
Stop being such a good party loyalist - such a patsy.
Stop sleeping. Wake up to what's going on about you.
You're getting screwed - just like me.

[PassingFair]

23. Donate to DFA today!

Now is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of their party.

Democrats will inevitably be doomed it this horrible legislation is allowed
to ooze through.

Kill it!

[madfloridian]

49. Good idea.

:hi:

[leftstreet]

24. K&R

[bonnieS]

31. I have been saying this to anyone who would listen

[madfloridian]

32. Keep saying it.

Even if they don't listen.

You just say it again.

[Javaman]

33. so in other words...

If you are poor and can't afford health care you are about to become destitude because the fines will kill you.

Health care becomes a death sentance. Sounds like a teabaggers line, doesn't it?

[madfloridian]

36. There will be a subsidy for the poor.

I wonder if the unemployed will qualify as poor if they have no income. How long would it take them to qualify?

[Lorien]

41. Health "insurance" that the poor can afford is already a death sentence

As I'm self employed I already have such "insurance". It costs around $250 a month and has a 12k deductible before I get any coverage for anything at all. Where the heck will I ever get 12k? If I develop cancer or any other life threatening illness I'm screwn.

[Mithreal]

43. Conveniently forgotten so often in the pushers' arguments

[eridani]

46. +10 n/t

[Individualist]

34. K&R

[Waiting For Everyman]

35. Mandate is just a niced-up word for theft. n/t

[Jakes Progress]

37. Even more than the war extension,

signing this piece of crap will effectively put republicans back in the majority. The bill is bad enough but when the media start their push, we will lose everywhere.

[grahamhgreen]

38. Thank You!

[AllentownJake]

40. Howard Dean just went all in

and showed the President how hardball is played.

[Mithreal]

44. truth

[Usrename]

48. Humility is a sin, charity is criminal, and the unknowns weigh...

... sixteen ounces to a pound.

[madfloridian]

51. And the unknowns are still not known.

:shrug:

[democracy1st]

52. rec 100 thanks mad

[tomm2thumbs]

55. 115 and rising!

up, up, up - the truth bubbles to the surface of the pot of lies being brewed by lobbyists

[Nikki Stone1]

56. Exactly.

.

[Autumn Colors]

57. K&R (nt)

[BrklynLiberal]

59. Thanks for posting this.

[madfloridian]

68. You are welcome.

:)

[rurallib]

60. Got to say this is a uniquely American solution

Rube Goldberg style
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine

This whole thing is like a RWers wet dream.
The insurance companies make out like bandits and the repugs get @ 7 solid campaign issues.

[AlbertCat]

61. If one Senator can destroy the PO and the Medicare expansion...

.... then why can't one progressive senator hold everything for ransom unless they get rid of the mandate?

This whole procedure has been a joke.

The Prez and Dems are more interested in looking like they passed something rather than it having any substance... they say. But If Lieberman or Snow can hold the whole thing up until they get things killed they don't like, why can't someone hold up the bill until the mandate is killed?

Because there was never any intention of reform??? Maybe???

The only reason it's a complicated mess is because they are trying to do fake reform that really doesn't change anything.

We KNOW what will bring about all the goals the Prez and Dems supposedly want. We KNOW what the solution is that will work if one wants real reform. It was tabled before discussion even started.

Single payer.

This whole thing has been an embarrassing exercise is appearances and no substance. What a bunch of losers the Dems in the Senate are! (and we are to)

[KakistocracyHater]

65. yeah that's what angers me, how one schmuck can wreck the whole thing?!

& yet there is NO ONE on OUR SIDE? Tie the war-costs to American health coverage, use a percentage, say 30% of all emergency extensions for war-costs get shifted by force to Americans, instead of to war profiteers. So every 3 months or so, when the MIC demands more money......slip it in already! Hope someone is reading this & finally does something good for Americans.

[madfloridian]

70. "Because there was never any intention of reform???"

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Javaman]

66. 30 million people owing their souls to the insurance company store...

Sure, you don't have to buy insurance, but we will make your life miserable if you don't.

This is what we get with no public option.

I was once a member of that 30 million, now I have a grind the wheat worker bee job with insurance rates rising each year.

I know how much it sucks if you have something wrong with you and you can't afford to see a doctor. And going to the ER isn't an option because they don't treat the symptoms.

If this pile of tripe passes, life for 30 million people gets that much harder and that much more controlled.

Didn't pay your forced payment for insurance? Well, pay this fine! What? you can't pay the fine? Well, then, here's your orange jump suit to work with your fellow non-payers.

WTF?

The Insurance corps new motto: Squeezing more out of the poor than ever before!

we went from single payer to public option to buy into medicare to this colossally huge stinking pile of bullshit.

It's always been about making the insurance corps compete. Period. If those bastards have no competition, we the people, get nothing. NOTHING.

I'm beginning to think that that secret agreement that the "gang of 10" made was more bullshit and puffery to try and convince and already skeptical public that they are actually doing something.

Nothing, a big fucking zero came out of that "secret meeting".

I'm not quite done with these morons just yet, buy, damn, I'm getting pretty fucking close.

[madfloridian]

67. Kick so we don't forget that there are fines for not buying...

yet no competitive option. And the IRS will enforce the fines.

[meow2u3]

69. That's the poison pill in the bill

Criminalizing the refusal to buy overpriced insurance of poor quality from greedy insurance companies is a crime in itself.