Well, I guess it's over...

[WCGreen]

We had a pretty good run, 220 years...

It's been good to know this gray old democratic republic those crazy framers cobbled together way back when such weighty issues such as freedom were being bandied around.

They didn't get it right, but they did put in the clause so that changes were allowed. And even though I am cynical by nature, I like to think that the direction of most of those changes were aimed at opening up our government, our society to as many folks as possible. Our republic, I thought, was on a steady trajectory toward political and economic freedom for all.

Silly me.

This week, this month, has been a tough time for those of us who value freedom from the excesses of the market place and freedom in the political arena.

The Senate is ignoring the wishes of a solid majority of people and siding with the moneyed interests behind the anti-health care reform push. Big win for investors.

An idea to levy a .25% tax the on Wall Street speculators, a proposal that would temper the pace of the churning financial markets and raise a bunch of money for the country, was shot down by whining capitalist who insist the only way to a free and open society is to cut taxes for the rich.

John Yoo is being defended by the Obama Justice Department. Nuff said on that one.

But perhaps the worst trend is the corporate media's mind numbing belief that every issue has two valid and equally weighted sides. All this does is give people on the fringe, mainly the right, a voice. This elevates the crazy conspiratory minds that think there is, for example, no global warming.

Like I said, it's been real. I'm glad I don't have any kids because I truly believe the individuals who don't happen to be born into or are chosen to enter the ruling elite will see their living standards fall as compared to their parents.

It's been a pretty remarkable run when you really look at it, compare it to all the other countries in the world. But now that we are bogged down in two wars, are left to patrol the sea lanes so other economies can prosper, continue to shovel more and more of the governments and the peoples assets to safekeeping of Goldman Sachs employees or alumni, and so much of the other crappy stuff happening, how can we not be headed on a downward spiral.

I hope I'm wrong and that I am just really frustrated now that it is becoming more clear that change is all that most of us will have left in our pockets. I really hope that the folks in Washington can rise above the petty partisan bickering but I'm not holding out much hope.

Any way, peace on earth and goodwill toward men (and women).

It's tough being a realist especially in this time of year when the fantastic is suppose to be celebrated.

Ah, maybe if I sleep on it and find out tomorrow that all the reports about John Yoo are exaggerated I'll change my mind.

I'm not counting on that.

[niyad]

1. k and r--wish I could say you are wrong.

this thing about john yoo is just about the final straw for me.

[dysfunctional press]

2. this country was STARTED with a revolution to free us from one aristocracy...

there's no reason to believe that it can't happen again.

our military can't even keep the peace or control insurgents in third-world shitholes like iraq and afghanistan...there's no way that they could put down a massive revolt here.

unfortunately- things aren't anywhere near bad enough yet to foment enough people into action.
give it a decade or so.

[tmyers09]

8. I think it might happen if current health care is passed

and people see even more of their money go to rich fat cats. Too many people are perfectly comfortable right now, nothing directly affecting them. Once somebody is left with nothing, they can finally fight for something.

[liberation]

58. We are going through one of the toughest economic times

tens of thousands die from lack of health care, we have a crumbling infrastructure, we have been engaged on two useless wars for almost a decade. Wars that have costed untold billions, wasted hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, and the lives of thousands of American soldiers. Unemployment is ridiculously high, a massive housing bubble burst no long ago, etc, etc.....

Honestly, what more needs to happen for people to take action?

[historian]

159. shut down the cable providers!

Leave americans without tv and then you will see a revolt. Or perhaps, though i am of course dreaming here, they might turn to books to fill their empty hours but i doubt it. Oh when i say books i dont mean rush limabughs memoirs, that idiot palins book or danielle steele.

[cali]

12. the only conditions under which there will be any sort of revolution or full

blown civil war here is a complete and total breakdown of society.

[Fumesucker]

13. To the point where the cable TV gets shut off..

Once people have to concentrate on the suckitude of their own lives rather than glistening baubles things might change.

Or not.

[walldude]

157. Exactly.. which isn't going to be any better than

them stealing everything from us. People who are talking about an honest to god revolution seem to forget that this isn't the 1700's, it's the 21'st century. The government as much as we like to think they are inept, when it comes to squashing a revolution, will be able to do it with ease. And if they can't then we'll be talking Mad Max country here...

[Vermontgrown]

32. Revolt?

Sorry to say but revolt is the only thing that will wake up
the freaks in Washington that are padding their portfolios on
the American peoples dime. A revolt aagainst the rich.

[chrisa]

83. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't happen.

A little bit of an overreaction, no?

Actually, the OP kind of is too.

[dysfunctional press]

156. you're pretty sure that what wouldn't happen...?

[kenny blankenship]

3. corporate media's mind numbing belief that every issue has two valid and equally weighted sides.

both of which are conservative.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. I hear you...

It's tough not to be discouraged.

The stand on John Yoo just infuriates me. Don't these clowns know criminal activity when it hits them in the face? Maybe not...maybe because they skirt those edges all the damn time.

K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. It's been this dark before

now the question is will we actually rise to the occasion?

Oh and dark... it was ilegal to form unions at one point and people still did... and that is just one example.

[avaistheone1]

6. Cheers.

It has to get better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Only if we want it... we need to make it happen

things will just not get better.

[CreekDog]

9. no change allowed in this country unless 60% support it

and sometimes 67%.

democratic republic my ass. :rant:

[madrchsod]

19. it could be 100% but they would still be against the will of the people

[Goldstein1984]

34. This country needs an enema

Which is why simply voting and sending emails to elected officials isn't going to work. A tiny minority--the political and economic elite--have a lock on government. With only a few exceptions, such as Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich, everyone sent to Washington, D.C. prostitutes themselves to Wall Street.

When the system doesn't work you go outside the system. Many things that are and have been illegal are nonetheless right. Many things that are and have been legal are nonetheless wrong. Principles are all that really matter.

Democracy in the United States is an illusion. Representative government is an illusion. A government of, by and for the people is an illusion.

This nation needs an economic and political enema.

[HuckleB]

120. It's been FAR darker before.

[tavalon]

10. I don't think there was one pivotal moment where it was lost

The year 2000 was a pretty bad one. Every thing after 9/11/2001 was different or so we have been told over and over and incessantly over. That no one in the Bush administration has been tried for their war crimes is a pretty big blow to nation. I don't see us recovering from it all, but I don't hope for bloody revolution. I don't see anyone having the leadership skills of Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Washington, etc. to keep us from falling into a maelstrom that leads to fascism. Do you know the kind of compromises they had to make to give us a Republic if we could keep it, which clearly we can't?

I'm hoping we just quietly and amicably split into many nation-states. I know which grouping I hope to be in and a few I would not care to even visit. We haven't had a bloody conflict on this nation's soil in 150 years - we don't have the generational memory and I don't think we have the fortitude or the stomach for it. At least I hope not.

[madokie]

11. Waaambulance needed here

John yoo is not the end of the fucking world especially the usa. get a gripe on things

[WCGreen]

23. What then will be the end of the fucking world...

If we let these transgressions pass without enough comment or concern, what will be our Rubicon.



On Edit, replaced our for the...

[madokie]

26. Sorry to bother you, my bad

Go ahead and worry about the end times for me too as I have better things to occupy my time with right now in my world :hi:

[WCGreen]

27. Ah, such bliss...

[Overseas]

28. Yeah golly, what's one amicus brief in support of a torture defender?

Just because others were prosecuted for the same offense during the Nuremberg Trials?

Just because others were executed for waterboarding back then?

Yeah, golly, what's the big deal?

:crazy:

:sarcasm:

[Vermontgrown]

33. John Yoo

John Yoo was one of the shrubs nazis. Other countries see
these god awful people for what they really are. If we had
honesty in this country the srub would never have happened.

[Atticus]

48. Does anyone else just cringe and click past posts so bereft of content that they resort to

using "words" like "waaambulance"?

[madokie]

56. you didn't

you clicked on it and posted a reply so whats that make you?

[asdjrocky]

60. Yeah. It's really sad.

It makes me feel bad for the people that do it. It's such a right thing to do to try to shut down debates with insults.

They might as will be yelling, USA USA.

[raccoon]

14. I think you can take that to the bank.

" I truly believe the individuals who don't happen to be born into or are chosen to enter the ruling elite will see their living standards fall as compared to their parents."

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WCGreen]

25. Because I choose to post on an Internet Board my concerns about

recent events does not infer I am sitting on my "fucking ass" and doing nothing.

Following that logic, your answer would infer you too are doing nothing...

BTW,I am too old and to infirm to storm the Bastille, however, I still remain fairly active and engaged in local and state politics here in Ohio.

[Javaman]

16. Or as I like to say...

the grand experience has concluded. Result: failure.

but remember, all governments are theory anyway.

Cheers.

[madrchsod]

17. not yet....but any day now it may be official

the supreme`s courts ruling on corporate contributions to political campaigns will decide if we still have a republic.

if they rule in favor of the corporations then we are no longer a republic we are a fascist state.

[WCGreen]

24. I left that tid bit out because the ruling has not come down as of yet...

I share your concern...

[xxqqqzme]

31. given the current make up of the court

I'd put money on the way that decision is headed.

[ipaint]

18. It's been a failure for the working class for decades.

Where have you all been?

[madrchsod]

20. 1973 was the start of the war on the middle class

and obama is the new commander in chief.

[change_notfinetuning]

141. That pretty much nails it. n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

21. We ARE the Roman Empire.

'Cept it only took us 220 years to self destruct. It took the Romans 1,000.

[Echo In Light]

39. Tip=toe totalitarianism

[HuckleB]

43. Yeah, well, people have been saying that for 220 years, too.

:eyes:

[liberation]

59. Would you like some Circus,

with your bread?

LOL

[HuckleB]

90. Thanks for the non-response.

Sorry to bust up your BS whine circle.

[marmar]

22. It was "over" in Nov. 1980.....when Ronnie Raygun "won" the presidency.

nt

[Jakes Progress]

29. Yep. Been over for a while, but

it wasn't really so evident until we got majorities in both houses and the WH. When that happens and we still can't take care of the people before the corporations, it has become obvious.

Ignorance is a great buffer for many here. Facing the truth is too hard for some. Bless their delicate souls. Let them party until the lights go out. It won't help or hurt and at least a few giddy souls can "believe" for a short while.

[omega minimo]

30. Our republic, I thought, was on a steady trajectory toward political and economic freedom for all.

When did you think that?

[WCGreen]

45. Back in the 70's when the Church Committee investigated the CIA...

The Watergate investigation and the resignation of Nixon.

After Carter, I felt the US was in a holding pattern, trying to digest the idea of diminished possibilities and how best to confront the explosion in a world suddenly full of competitive commerce.

I was hoping that Obama wouldn't revert to the same old false bravado that set this country on the wrong path these past few decades. Although he hasn't embraced that tactic, there are reasons to have measured optimism, he has seemed surprised by the effectiveness of the blustering GOP and is letting them divert this administrations goals.

Look, I am optimistic by nature, but I now feel we are slip sliding away.

[omega minimo]

78. Aye and well put.

I was hoping it wasn't within the past 3 decades :hi:

[xxqqqzme]

35. On Saturday, I was fortunate to hold my very

first grandchild when he was less than an hour old. Later, holding him when he was considerably older, I wondered aloud what his future held. My son, who is not political, said 'I wonder the same thing. I think it is going to be real ugly for a while'. In my family the slide from upper middle class to lower middle has happened in just 2 generations. Grandfathers on both sides were wealthy professionals, quietly powerful men in their communities, involved in many civic organizations and charities. My father belonged to a union, which is why today my mother has his pension and health care coverage. They are very comfortable in their retirement, very conservative republicans.

Of their four kids, not one belongs to a union. Three own heir own homes. Only one will have 'retirement' to supplement their social security. In spite of this, 3 of the 4 are extremely conservative republicans.

Of their 8 grandchildren, half over 35, all but one over 25, only two have their own homes, only one is a professional, 6 have no health care coverage. 3 of the 8 are liberal democrats.
That is just one family over the course of the last century. How many other families have had this experience. I started looking at the generations a few years ago. I think if others did the same, the pattern would be repeated and the downward socio/economic spiral be very evident.

[debbierlus]

36. Only if we allow it. Defeatist posts resigning to this fate won't help

[Zodiak]

37. The downward spiral for younger generations happened years ago

Starting with generation X. They and all of those younger than them have come to grips with the fact that we will not live as well as our parents did.

It is profoundly sad that after 20 years or more of this, people in the upper middle class and middle class brackets are starting to notice instead of indulging their first instinct to blame it on whining and laziness.

Not that I want to start any generational war or anything. Far from it...but I cannot help to notice that the new "compromise" that is offered for healthcare has a dividing line between the boomers and generation X. I honestly do not think this is a mistake because pitting these two generations against each other often yields great political fruit.

[HuckleB]

42. Even that is not all that crystal clear.

I am a GenXer, and most of the people I grew up with have a higher standard of living than their parents did.

[Zodiak]

46. Year graduated: 1989 Texas

And you?

[HuckleB]

47. From high school or college?

1986 and 1990...

[Zodiak]

155. HS....I figured that graduation from HS is more ubiquitous n/t

[Starry Messenger]

57. I graduated high school in 1988

and so did my partner. Our standard of living is considerably lower than our parents. I'm curious what professions your friends entered into, if you don't mind my asking. Some of our friends had a brief moment of prosperity during the dotcom boom but things have been sinking ever since that dried up here in CA. One of my oldest friends just lost his job at Adobe after 18 years there and he was the last person I knew working in the tech field.

[HuckleB]

85. My friends are spread across professions.

Advertising, marketing, health care, teaching, writing, fund-raising, social work, funeral services, and on and on. I'm sorry, but friends and acquaintances I know travel more, have more, and do more than their parents did. That's just the reality, no matter how addicted to whining other people might be...

[Starry Messenger]

93. That's your reality and that's fine.

It isn't mine, and saying so is not whining. I'm glad your circle of friends is prospering.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LooseWilly]

102. She's being honest.

Then again, our circle is mostly artists and teachers. Art and education are both being starved. Maybe your circle of acquaintances had artists and teachers as parents... or maybe your friends are all yuppies. I'm sure you won't like that, but I'm not letting BS like this go either...

(And by the way, my friends who are yuppies, are also not doing as well as their parents who were also yuppy-esque money grubbers. Maybe it has to do with California and prop. 13, our parent's generation saved themselves a boatload of money, and in the same stroke inflated the real estate market beyond the reach of any but their most money grubbing children... Thanks Mom.)

[HuckleB]

115. So she's offering an "argument" based on BS.

Thanks for sharing that reality.

[LooseWilly]

122. She's offering a perspective based upon observation.

There was no argument... and her observations are not BS... I've "measured" them myself.

Meanwhile, your "argument" is no less BS, as it is no less based upon your personal observations... which means that you are simply showing yourself to be self-indulgent in your self-assurance that your perspective is somehow more valid than that of others... a quality that I've found to usually go hand in hand with the self-righteousness of affluence, in this society where all is judged monetarily. You are, of course, in the right precisely to the extent that Stephen Colbert's assertion "The market has spoken" is really a means of gauging reality.

[HuckleB]

126. She was making a vast generalization based on a small part of the population.

A part that knows the financial outcomes of the choices they make.

And I want everyone to support artists much more than we do.

That doesn't make her generalizations valid.

[LooseWilly]

132. You are making strawmen out of her observation, and my added details.

"She was making vast generalization based on a small part of the population. A part that knows the financial outcomes of the choices they make. "

Just because we make art, doesn't mean we don't both have college degrees. She has an MFA, and I have a BA. Neither one of us makes as much as our parents did, and none of them went to college.

This is not a "vast generalization". This is observation. It is indeed based upon "a small part of the population", but to try to assert that it is a "vast generalization" is to turn what she said into a strawman, so that you can better argue against it.

And, while we're at it... your counter assertion was also based upon "a small part of the population", namely, your circle of friends.

The fact that you deign to assert the greater validity of your own "vast generalization" (yours was the one used to assert a universality, not hers) based upon a similarly "small part of the population" as more valid shows an intellectual dishonesty which should be embarrassing to you.

(Taken in conjunction with the personal observation of post #35, the findings of her observations comprise a "less small part of the population", so empirically, hers is the perspective that carries more weight, by the by.)

[HuckleB]

133. Hardly.

I blew on her strawman, and it flew away.

[Forkboy]

137. You're on a roll tonight!

All downhill.

[HuckleB]

138. Now there's a great post!!!!

Keep pretending! It'll save the world!

[Forkboy]

142. You're losing it, HuckleB.

:shrug:

[HuckleB]

143. No.

You lost it long ago. I'm just pointing that out.

[Forkboy]

145. Case in point.

:rofl:

[LooseWilly]

146. Yours was the only strawman... and yours was the only "vast generalization".

Look at Starry's post again. There is no strawman. There is only a statement of personal observation: "... Our standard of living is considerably lower than our parents. I'm curious what professions your friends entered into... "

I don't know what you were blowing... but it wasn't a strawman.

It is ironic though, that you and your friends seem to be doing so well, but you don't seem to possess the critical thinking skills to argue coherently, or use the term "strawman" correctly. Nor the creativity to use a better and more descriptive verb when flinging an insult. (I would've gone with "fluttered away", evocative of something light and airy, like a dried leaf, or winsome, like a butterfly... or even vindictively annoying, like a moth... but no, you choose "flew", which could be mistakenly associated with imagery of Superman... a dangerous and ill-chosen verb to be sure.)

And, again... yours was the only "vast generalization" based upon "a small part of the population"... read her post again and you will see that her contribution was of observations, serving as evidentiary support for another's point. Which, of course, means that the BS is all on you... :)

[Starry Messenger]

103. lol

Come live my life then. My parents both own property and have vacationed around the world. They both have Kaiser medical. They raised two kids on one income, my father prepares taxes for a living. His name is redacted (I don't think you actually care) I have had no health care for years and can only afford an apartment with LooseWilly (who is here to verify my story). I make less than $30,000 a year and I live in CA. Come visit on one of your travels. People my age are living in tents out here and I am one of the "lucky". I don't know how long, because the funding for my job is being cut. But thanks for your concern.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberation]

62. Don't equate having "more cheap plastic crap" with "higher standard of living"

After adjusting for inflation, I belong to the first generation (X) that is making less money than my parents. We're working more, for less money at the end of the day.

Can you tell me how many of your friends can afford to raise a family, own a house and a car, afford vacation and college for their kids on a single upper middle class income?

[HuckleB]

86. I don't know anyone in my parents' generation who could do that on a single income.

So what's your point, besides pretending the "good old days" ever existed?

[LooseWilly]

106. And yet those parents were able to finance education for you and your friends.

If you and your friends were making the same money that your parents were making (adjusted for inflation, though not cost of living), I bet your children wouldn't be looking at a brighter future than you... and none of you would have any health insurance.

Try reading post #35 for another picture of the changing times....

[HuckleB]

123. No, they weren't.

Do you always ignore the content of the posts to which you respond?

[LooseWilly]

147. I didn't ignore any content.

I made an extrapolation that your parents provided for your education. As you indicated nothing to the contrary, there was no content being ignored.

If you would like to now provide some content, please feel free to do so. If you think that insulting innuendo is going to make your case for you, it just shows me that your affluence has made you intellectually lazy.

Hope you enjoyed your last vacation... :)

[nicky187]

38. This reminds me of ...

... Animal House.

"It wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor... It's over when WE say it's over ..."

The rest of it was even better, but it's really not over until we say it's over.

[HuckleB]

118. +1

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

41. THE SKY IS FALLING!

:eyes:

[liberation]

64. You misspelled: IT HASN'T AFFECTED ME YET SO I DON'T REALLY GIVE A SH*T

LOL

[WCGreen]

69. That is very funny....

[HuckleB]

88. I'm glad you think so.

Now I know you like BS, and posters who try to put words in the mouths of others.

[WCGreen]

92. What's good for the goose...

[HuckleB]

95. If you had a point, that might be true.

Unfortunately, your only point is to continue offering dramatic BS.

[WCGreen]

96. I truly believe I offered several valid areas where I feel the democratic

process is at risk, where those in leadership positions give little to no thought about what the people who they owe their livelihood to want.

If you believe that the continued melding of corporate to political power is good for democracy, then so be it. I happen to strongly disagree and see a dire threat to our political process.

But hey, if you think everything is hunky dory, well then...

[HuckleB]

113. None of your "reasons" are any different than at any other point in the country's history.

And yet things keep moving, up and down and all around, imperfect as ever.

[HuckleB]

84. In other words, you fail to understand that overstated drama is useless.

And that it may be just as much of a problem as that which you rant against.

[LooseWilly]

107. In other words...

"Now I know you like BS, and posters who try to put words in the mouths of others."

-HuckleB, post #88.

I think your kettle is black, sir/madam.

[HuckleB]

114. I don't see any thought in your responses, so what are you talking about?

[LooseWilly]

124. That's ironic, since I was quoting you...

if you see no thought in the response, maybe that is an indication that your own response showed no thought.

Or, maybe you are just too deep of a thinker to be understood by yourself...

[HuckleB]

128. You keep telling yourself that.

Wow!

[LooseWilly]

134. Ohh, sorry... I was under the impression I was talking to you, seeing as how you are answering...

Or... are you trying to assert that only you are qualified to put words into others mouths?

[HuckleB]

135. I was never under the impression that you were actually responding to anything but the creation...

... of your own imagination.

Thus, if you forget some of your creations, I can see how you might be easily confused.

[LooseWilly]

148. "THE SKY IS FALLING" was not a product of my imagination, but yours.

post #41

And a cliched imagination it is. I'd be inclined to give you some partial credit for using an allusion, but without bothering with any witty comment to tie it to the OP in an insulting fashion... it simply smacks of intellectual laziness.

Perhaps you remember the post? It spawned this sub-thread... Ohh sorry, I guess you're now making some sort of attempt to insinuate that my creativity, which I admitted to in another sub-thread, is somehow getting in the way of... my "obligation" to explain your own quotes to you (another sign that affluence causes a sense of entitlement that justifies intellectual laziness).

I guess keeping the content of sub-threads "discrete" (I use the word, here, in the mathematical sense) is not of importance, so I'll go ahead and just turn the whole discussion into mash, following your lead.

I do wonder, however, if you'll ever feel compelled or curious enough to back track this thread and try to figure out what I was talking about... I doubt it though. I'd almost wager that you will instead continue to try to assert some sort of intellectual superiority and continue to pretend to yourself that I am the one who is confused...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Be an hero.

[rhett o rick]

49. There will not be a revolution. The big difference between the American Revolution is that

those Americans that fought the revolution were seekers of freedom that left the homeland looking for freedom. The gullible apathetic nitwits remained content under the control of the King. In this country the gullible apathetic are among us voting as Beck tells them. They will not help the revolution but only hinder. Another factor, is that the American Revolution was fought on our soil far from the homeland. Hard for the rulers to carry on a war. This is not true today.

[arcadian]

99. Did you witness Katrina? The Federal government folded over.

Imagine 50 Katrinas taking place in cities all over the country. The Federal government would pack up and offsore itself to Bermuda if that happened.

[rhett o rick]

119. Yes. And did you notice that there was no revolution over Katrina?

People were herded into the Dome. People were shot at. Some say people were killed. No one revolted. When the time comes people will just be herded into the compounds.

[Scruffy1]

50. It aint over yet..

It might seem dark our there right now, but in the long run history is on the side of the progressive movement not the reactionary. As an older (60+) activist I've seen some strange stuff in my lifetime and the truth is that the capitalistic powers are running scared for the first time in 30 years. They are looking at the plutocracy they made and realizing that the only base they have is nut cases and idiots. If you thought one election was going to change everything then that's just false hope. I see a different attitude in the younger people in this country and the young activists seem more committed than my generation ever was. Non violent revolutions take time and don't happen overnight. The progressive movement of the 60's became so obsessed with the War the wheels fell off as the war wound down. Of course there will always be wars as long as we are an imperialist power. Obama is highly intelligent and has the great asset of likability and is a great orator. I still have some hope for him to turn into a progressive leader, but he also the knows the dark forces well and doesn't want a shipwreck. I think the healthcare debate has done an excellent job of exposing the corporate politicians for what they are and woke up many in the working class.

[WCGreen]

54. I'm not too far behind you...

I started out marching in the first Earth Day back in 1970 when I was 12 years old...

For me, the breaking point started with the Supreme Court willing to revisit the status of corporation when it comes to donating to political campaigns. This John Yoo announcement yesterday hit me square in the head. We have to prosecute these people to show that the idea of the United States is viable and not some fungible collection of ideals that change under circumstance.

[stiplic]

51. What a sick, twisted, pathetic fucking country we've become

[BeHereNow]

52. Recommend # 83 and PROUD of it.

I think the really depressing aspect of being a realist
is knowing what a small minority you exist in.

There are so few who are realists.
Just reading some of the posts on DU today has
really driven it home.

BHN

[treestar]

53. Oh for F's sake!

During Bushco I might have tolerated this. Thought it overwrought perhaps, but tolerated it.

Now it's just too much.

[WCGreen]

77. Intolerant to the opinions of one man....

These examples that I cite are important to me. The way I see it, these four examples, well five if you add the pending supreme court ruling about corporate funds in the political arena, are signs that the tide has turned almost irrevocably against the individual and toward the corporation.

If the Supreme Court does what most expect them to do, preserve and then expand the corporation as individual, then the game is all but over. Perhaps some brilliant attorney can find a legal way to attack the ruling by narrowing the scope, but that is a lot to expect.

If you see thing differently, then you are much more optimistic than I.

I don't see how we, a collective of individuals, can turn the tide back away from the economic power structure without general and massive strife.

[DemReadingDU]

100. I'm with you

Our country is run by lobbyists, banksters and corporatists who buy politicians to enact laws to keep the status quo for the wealthy. I knew in September 2008 when Congress passed the TARP but the people were against bailing out the banks. When more and more people lose their job, have no income nor savings, have lost their home and are hungry, that's when we will begin to see change. Might not happen in my lifetime, I'm 60, but surely in my children. I worry for my little grandbabies future.

[proteus_lives]

55. So, rope? Pills? Head in the oven?

Want to borrow my pistol?

[asdjrocky]

63. That's really wrong.

You should think about that and take it back.

[liberation]

66. Turning to sociopath jokes and passive aggresive snark, wow...

Soon we will be told to mind what we say lest the wheels of hope and change crush us!

LOL

[proteus_lives]

70. I'm just being neighborly.

What's wrong with a little black humor?

[asdjrocky]

76. What the poster wrote was heartfelt.

There's enough meanness here now, think about that. I've got nothing against black humor, and I have no problem using it, but I felt this op deserved better than a lame attempt at black humor.

Arsenic and Old Lace is funny. (I directed the play, twice.)

There are parts of Natural Born Killers that is funny.

People Under the Stairs? Seriously, can anyone stop laughing?

What you wrote was not funny.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just sticking up for someone who I feel empathy for.

[proteus_lives]

81. Well, what's funny is a matter of opinion.

I just doing a variation on a "THE SKY IS FALLING" post. Besides I find this "all is lost" threads amusing.

Maybe the OP needs a chuckle at his expense.


BTW, I liked People Under the Stairs too. Craven is the man.

[asdjrocky]

105. "I'm gonna find YOUUUUUU!"

"I'm gonna kill YOUUUUUU!" Great movie.

Funny is indeed a matter of opinion, and my opinion on what is funny is finely honed.

[proteus_lives]

149. That was a great movie.

The original Hills Have Eyes, Nightmare series (I'm on the fence about the remake), the 1982 Swamp Thing. Craven will always have a fan in me.

As is mine! My tastes run to the darker fare and I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Forkboy]

65. You should use it on yourself first.

[asdjrocky]

68. This place is really starting to freak me out dude.

[BeHereNow]

73. You are experiencing a healthy reaction to that exchange.

The ignore button is your friend, and I'm not
talking about Forkboy.

BHN

[Forkboy]

75. If the poster wants to suggest the OP kill himself...

...than I think my response is more than fitting.

[proteus_lives]

71. No thanks, I don't need to.

I got past the emo, "Everything sucks and will always suck" rants when I was a teenager.

How about I give you a sense of humor for Christmas?

[Forkboy]

74. Where was the humor in suggesting the OP kill himself?

How about I give you a clue for Christmas?

[proteus_lives]

82. Humor, like beauty is subjective.

Maybe the OP chuckled.

Or maybe he was more offended then you.

I still think it was funny.

[WCGreen]

91. Well the OP did answer and it made me chuckle...

But sigh at the same time.

I believe I spelled out four distinct cases where I believe the progressive agenda is at risk. I have since added the Supreme Court's decision to rule if corporation can be treated as individuals in the electoral process and not just in the legal realm.

To me, these five threats show that our democratic republic is at risk.

If you do not agree, perhaps you could explain your reasons for being optimistic.

My grandmother use to tell me that sarcasm was the tool of the ignorant. I wouldn't go that far however I view sarcasm as a lazy but potentually humorous way to make a serious point.

[proteus_lives]

150. History teaches the republic is always at risk.

And there is no telling what tomorrow will bring.

Some days I'm optimistic, others I'm a cynic. But I'm not psychic. I had no idea I'd be sitting where I am a couple years ago. I think that counts for the nation as well.

I certainly didn't predict a black president by 2008. I didn't think the recession would hit so hard either.

I don't want to kill yourself but absolute statements about the future bring out my sarcastic side.

No offense to grandma but I've always considered sarcasm an important of humor and self-reflection.

[taterguy]

61. Did you say over? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[midnight]

67. I agree with this statement...

But perhaps the worst trend is the corporate media's mind numbing belief that every issue has two valid and equally weighted sides. All this does is give people on the fringe, mainly the right, a voice. This elevates the crazy conspiratory minds that think there is, for example, no global warming.

[alcibiades_mystery]

72. Oh, the

melodrama!

[patrice]

79. Maybe this will cheer you up a little, WCGreen:

I talked to a young Republican friend, who 4 years ago firmly supported the war and espoused the virtues of religion.

Today she held forth firmly on how the Middle Class has to pay too much of the taxes in this country. She was also telling me how much she is interested in anything that is "Green".

That's the 2nd time I had an experience like this in a week.

I think at least a few people are starting to wake up.

I hope it isn't too late.

[HuckleB]

117. Is she still a Republican?

[bevoette]

80. dude. seriously. (nm)

[chrisa]

87. Why give up so easily?

We're in a rut, but times were much worse at multiple times in US history. 1812, Civil War, Great Depression, WWII, to name a few.

[WCGreen]

109. Out of each of those crisis came progress...

If the Supreme Court rules that corporation will be treated as individuals in the political as well as the economic arena, I see a very tough time crawling back from that...

[HuckleB]

130. And that's just a few.

Some people need drama. Alas, that tendency can get in the way of the actual work of life.

[winyanstaz]

89. Well you had me until the global warming crap....sheesh....

[WCGreen]

108. I thought I was clear that it was the the global warming deniers

that were being elevated to legitimate standing. That was the result of the media's incessant thirst to have two sides to every story mantra.

[winyanstaz]

158. I thought I was clear that I don't believe in the global warming crap...

and guess what? yes both sides should be presented and examined.
When you only have one side..that is not a clear perspective on anything.

[Canuckistanian]

97. The Yoo thing freaked me out, too

It just PROVED that the status quo WILL BE PRESERVED. The excesses of past regimes will never be punished.

In the immortal words of George Carlin, it's a big club - and we ain't in it.

[KrR]

98. Jump off a bridge already.

[Forkboy]

104. You first.

[EFerrari]

111. Rahm, is that you?

lol

[OnyxCollie]

101. They Thought They Were Free

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in
upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in
my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying 'Jew swine,' collapses it all at
once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under
your nose. The world you live in- Your nation, your people- is not the world you were
born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the
shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But
the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying
it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a system which rules without
responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the
beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a
succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it,
without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more
comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you
would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in
Germany, could have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or,
more accurately, what you haven't done (for that was all that was required of most of us:
that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the
university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A
small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than
that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised
beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or 'adjust' your principles. Many
tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your
life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to
heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the
world knows or cares to know."

[WCGreen]

110. What a wonderful historic example of slow, simmering acceptance.

Thank you...

[OhioBlue]

112. WOW - I'm sorry to hear that you're so down

but take a deep breath, bake some holiday cookies and go look at lights & decorations for a while and calm down.

Think about all the issues that are important to you and then think about the progress - not the perfection of those issues.

No - this administration is not perfect and isn't going to make things perfect. But they are making progress.

Gitmo is closing
even if a health care bill isn't perfect - we will make progress.
We have Sotomayor on the Supreme Court instead of another Thomas or Scalia
Reports are that the end of DADT will be in the next DOD appropriations bill
The Economy didn't collapse and sink us into a depression
Okay - so Mountain top removal isn't stopped.. which I freakin' hate.. but permits for sludge fills in waterways have been pulled and I do trust the mine safety and labor relations boards much more under Obama than under Bush to keep the deep miners safe.
EPA is talking about regulations for greenhouse gases
Congress passed and Senate is progressing on an energy bill - and not Dick Cheney and Enron's version.
SCHIP and Medicaid were expanded
Teachers and First Responders were retained at local levels thanks to the Stimulus
Tons of grants for renewable energy training, installation, etc. are in the works or have been granted.
Toys are safer! not perfect - but much safer than they were in 2005 before Dems took control of the Congress.
Veterans benefits have been strengthened.

I mean c'mon.... Dems will fuck up - all elected officials will... we'll never have a perfect admin or Congress... but what we do have is a very intelligent Dem President, a Dem controlled Congress and progressive voices throughout the Admin and Congress that are changing the conversation and working toward progress. Ya just can't stop a dump truck full of shit that has been accelerating for 8 years (in some cases 28 yrs) in a moment.

the political conversation and momentum are getting better - in our favor. we need to fight the tea-bagger idiots now. not each other.

[WCGreen]

125. Well, the Browns beat the Steelers tonight...

I'm happy about that.

Seriously, I think there are behavioral precedents being established with the actions of the political figures on the right. Many here are saying we should behave just as boorishly. That's troubling.

And if there is no accountability even when war crimes are committed, what does that say about our country. Get tough on crime if it's committed by poor minorities but if one of the ruling class is under legal scrutiny, well that's a different story.

I agree that there is progress along the way, but the Yoo decision is just a slippery slope. It really says we can do anything we want, except getting a blow job in the Oval Office, as long as those transgressions are committed for god and country.

I see this as very troubling and that it will embolden illegal behavior in the higher echelon of the government.

And if the Supreme Court rules for the corporation in Citizens United vs. The FEC, it will be hard compete if corporations can act as individuals in the political arena.

So yea, I'm concerned about the future. Even more than I was in the 80's and under Bush.

[WCGreen]

153. I never thought I was fighting with other democrats....

All I was stating were my misgivings about the current state of the political landscape in this country and that it has taken us to a critical juncture.

Sure, I think we are not far from troubled times. The other side seems to be egging their followers on, watching with glee as they step closer to political violence.

Tell me that you aren't worried, at least a little, about the potential for widespread violence to break out? I know I am. Especially in the areas where red meets blue.

But my main concern is that nothing will change all that much. I know Obama is trying to do the right thing for the Justice Department as far as Yoo is concerned. But the President must have some inkling about what would happen if Yoo was tried and convicted. We all know Obama would be even more vilified, if such a thing were possible. But it would also drive a wedge further and deeper between those of us who stand on principle and those who are condition to personalize and react.

Obama does mean well but he has to start doing what is right and stop tryomg to placating the rabid right. There was some good news on that front from his speech on Tuesday. I know he is capable but has surrounded himself with far too many DC insiders. This must be because he didn't want to make the same mistake that Jimmy Carter did. But I think in his zeal to perform, he is relying far too much on old Clinton folks and players on Wall Street.

Heaven knows he was left with a terrible mess when he took the oath. Still, this refusal to prosecute the minions of the former vice president only emboldens them to act with even more recklessness.

I was impressed on how he came to the decisions behind his announced troop increase in Afghanistan. The NYT did a great job explaining all the ins and outs of the process. You can read about it here. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/asia/06reconstruct.html?_r=1&scp=7&sq=obama%20afghanistan&st=cse

Am I pessimistic? Yes, and I will be even more so if there turns out to be no Health Care Reform and the Supreme Courts rules in favor of the corporation in the Citizens United v. FEC.

These are troubled times. I really am pulling for calmer heads to prevail but I also believe that far too much anger has been unleashed by irresponsible demagogues on the right.

BTW, all of those items you ticked off I am aware of. I think each is a victory but that the stuff I brought up has the potential, in my humble opinion, to undermine whatever good Obama and the Dem's can accomplish.

[Agony]

121. You should have kids. We need more parents that think like you.

I think you would be a great parent!

Cheers!
Agony

K&R

[WCGreen]

127. We tried, but we are way beyond that age now...

Thanks!

[Agony]

129. You are welcome! Thanks for being here. n/t

[HuckleB]

131. We need more people with an 18-year-old, over-dramatic, black and white perspective as parents?

YIKES!

[WCGreen]

140. This 52 year old learned a very long time ago that you shouldn't

take political differences so personally.

[Zoeisright]

136. Sadly, I agree. When the public option was killed, I knew that was it.

We just aren't going to fix the things that need fixing.

[HuckleB]

139. Yeah, none of 'em.

Nothing will ever get better.

:eyes:

[change_notfinetuning]

144. We need an FDR - great speeches AND followed up with supporting actions.

[vegetat]

151. Perceptive at least

[earcandle]

152. Here. maybe this will make you feel better and not so alone...

Crashing into the Future

we do have somewhere to go, even if we can't see it yet, for the smoke and mirrors....

[earth mom]

154. It's not over until the U.S. is officially a 3rd world country. We're almost there now. nt