Alec Baldwin is a hypocrite

[pnwmom]

besides being a nasty-tempered bully.

If he's so concerned that the public airing of his angry voicemail has hurt his daughter, then how does he explain the book he's about to publish, in which everyone will be able to read about the "incredible strains caused by parental alienation?"

Baldwin's attack on his daughter wasn't just a couple of thoughtless words, it was an extended, threatening harangue . He doesn't need Basinger to alienate him from his 11 year old. He's obviously doing a great job at that himself.

Alec Baldwin Apologizes for Phone Fury
by Sarah Hall

http://www.eonline.com/news/article/index.jsp?uuid=5d185ad3-ac50-4c17-aee9-bb0e35924465

SNIP

The actor took to his Website Friday to apologize and try to explain himself after an angry voicemail message he left for his 11-year-old daughter, Ireland, made its way onto the Internet.
"Although I have been told by numerous people not to worry too much, as all parents lose their patience with their kids, I am most saddened that this was released to the media because of what it does to a child," Baldwin wrote. "I'm sorry, as everyone who knows me is aware, for losing my temper with my child."
The recording, in which Baldwin called his daughter a "rude, thoughtless pig," and accused her of deliberately missing his scheduled phone call, was one of the subjects of discussion Wednesday at a closed-door hearing regarding the actor's visitation rights with the child.

SNIP

Recent statements aside, Baldwin's theories on why his ex-wife is at fault in the situation could fill a book—and apparently, they're going to.
"Once my book is published, I'm sure more people will understand the incredible strains created by parental alienation," he wrote on his Website."

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. Utterly embarrassing.

I hate it when these guys turn out to be mean knuckleheaded average joes in real life.

[K8-EEE]

39. You know, sometimes my daughter forgets to turn on her phone

And it's really annoying because she sets it up like, oh call me when you get here and I'll come out -- usually a place where there's no parking....and I call and get the voice mail, and have to park in some ripoff lot, go find her etc...

But it's always like, "arrgh you forgot to turn on your phone, damnit! That was really inconsiderate." It really is weird that he called her a pig and a bad person.....WTF??????? I JUST DON'T RELATE TO THAT ON MY WORST PARENTING DAY! AND I HAVE THEM! BELIEVE ME!

[pnwmom]

43. And I bet there's something else you wouldn't do.

I bet you wouldn't stand up on the Letterman show and demonstrate to a laughing audience your eleven year old daughter's dance moves. Can you imagine how humiliated she must have been? So afterwards, she didn't answer the phone and he threw a two and a half minute profanity laced temper tantrum.

If it turns out she doesn't want to see him indefinitely, I think the judge should accede to her wishes.

[K8-EEE]

89. I admire him as an actor and I agree with his politics

But he's a rotten father.

[flying_monkeys]

2. Parental alienation is very real.

It often happens on both sides in divorce.


I don't have a dawg in this hunt, but I do wonder why Kim okayed releasing that voicemail against court gag orders and I wonder what she thought would benefit "Ireland" by doing so.... Yah, it benefits KIM but the kid should be the focus here.

Alec was an ass - - got that. But what greater benefit did Ireland get with having Mom's team release that voicemail? The WORLD knows she missed his call and was berated - - she benefits exactly how?

[pnwmom]

4. How do we know when and how that voicemail was passed on?

Think about it. For all we know, the daughter forwarded it to one of her friends -- before the judge even heard it.

As I said, when a father talks like this to his child, he only has himself to blame for his alienation. It doesn't matter what Basinger does -- he's in charge of his own reaction to and his own relationship with his daughter -- and he blew it.

[CookCountyResident]

17. Read the motion filed by Baldwin's lawyer

http://www.accesshollywood.com/pdf/TMZBaldwinBasinger.pdf

VICKI J. GREENE, hereby declares as follows:

1. Declarant is an attorney duly licensed to practice law in the State of California and attorney of record for Respondent in this dissolution proceeding. I have personal knowledge of the following facts and if called upon could and would testify compentently thereto. I submit the following in support of Respondent's request for relief:

2. On April 18, 2007, I appeared before this Court for the hearing on Petitioner's Motion. After that Motion was ruled upon in open Court, the Court obtained an ex parte application. However, over Petitioner's objection, the court closed the courtroom for the protection and privacy of the minor child (pursuant to Family Code 214) and conditionally sealed certain pleadings.

3. On April 19, 2007, Harvey Levin of TMZ.com, a celebrity online gossip website, admitted to me that he intended to publish a tape recording of a voice-mail message he had between Respondent and the minor child. He also told me that he obtained the tape from a source whom he would not disclose to me. He also told me he had information he believed came from the April 18 hearing. I told Mr. Levin that I had no idea what he had, but that what he purported to have had to have come from an improper source. I also told Mr. Levin that the court proceedings had been closed to the public and sealed.

4. I urged Mr. Levin not to go public with the tape recorded message and that the dissemination of what he claimed to have could result in Respondent taking legal action against him or TMZ.com.

5. During my conversation with Mr. Levin, I told him that it was my intention to send a letter to him confirming the subject of our conversation. He provided his address and fax number. A copy of my letter is attached hereto, incorporated herein by this reference and marked "Exhibit A".

6. However within minutes of our conversation, Mr. Levin published the voice-mail message between Respondent and his daughter and other information.

7. Petitioner is the only parent with custody, possession and control of the minor child's telephone voice-mail message that was dissemination to Harvey Levin and TMZ.com.

8. If Mr. Levin had a tape recorded message between Respondent and the minor child, it had to have originated from Petitioner or her employees, agents, or attorneys.

9. I do not know how Mr. Levin received any information about the court proceeding that was closed to the public, but again, it had to have come from someone connected to the proceeding, and it was not me.

10. The Court closed the courtroom, pursuant to Family Code 214, in order to protect the minor child of the parties from unwarranted public intrusion or publicity, which it deemed not to be in the best interests of the minor child. Moreover, what was to be discussed, was already the subject of previously sealed pleadings and closed proceedings.

11. The Court conditionally sealed the pleadings filed by the Petitioner and Respondent and provided me with the time I needed to file a formal Motion, which it asked me to set for hearing on May 4, 2007.

12. Respondent urges the Court to set a hearing to determine the source of the leak and whether and how its Orders have been violated. Information has been leaked to the press intentionally. The specific source is unknown, but it could only have come from Petitioner's side of the case. Whether the act was intentional, negligent or reckless, it goes against the Court's stated desire to protect the child from unwarranted publicity.

I declare under perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.

Executed this 19th day of April, 2007, at Los Angeles, California.

[pnwmom]

31. Who says the voicemail wasn't forwarded to someone by the 11 year old

herself?

The lawyer says the Basinger was the only parent at that location. True. But most 11 year olds these days are more tech savy than their parents. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out that the daughter forwarded the message to one or more of her friends.

[demobabe]

49. Riiight.

Children need to feel both parents are worthwhile in their eyes, and it's really unlikely an 11 year-old girl would go to her friends and say, "hey! listen to this! my dad called me a pig!"

Kids in the middle of divorces usually want nothing more than to not be involved in any parental arguments, that is unless they've been poisoned by one parent (Parental Alienation Syndrome).

The only person who stands to benefit from releasing the tape is Basinger. The kid is not going to want to be further humiliated in front of her friends.

[pnwmom]

55. It's quite possible a girl could go to her friend, or her friend's mother,

or her aunt or her teacher and say: "what do I do? Mom can't do anything and I'm afraid of him."

I had a twelve year old friend who would say to me, of her father, "I hate him!" And she had every reason to. And if my friend had had a tape like that, I'm sure she would have shared it with me.

You're assuming that Ireland isn't afraid of her father and his temper. I'm not. Listen to the tape. It's vicious.

"Parental alienation?" Garbage, in this case. Baldwin has proven himself to be doing the job all by himself. He doesn't need anyone's help on that.

[demobabe]

67. Oh come on.

You can't judge based on a couple minutes of a guy at the pinnacle of frustration.

Yes, the tape is bad.

But we don't know the rest of the story. We don't know if Basinger is keeping his daughter away from him, we don't know if she's badmouthing him on a regular basis, poisoning her against him.

Honestly, I've heard enough stories from friends who worked WITH Basinger, I'd avoid her...

[CookCountyResident]

15. Right.

Who benefits from the release of this tape that was entered into court when the doors were shut and the proceedings sealed? The only person is Basinger. The court agreed to shut the doors to the public on the 18th when this tape was entered into evidence so that the minor child would not undergo unwanted publicity. The child does not benefit from this at all, but Basinger would have a motive to try to turn the public against her ex-husband.

[AJ9000]

18. "The child does not benefit from this at all..." Oh yes she does. Now

people will believe her when she tells of mistreatment by him. It will also help force Alec to stop being an abusive prick.

[pnwmom]

34. Baldwin was on Letterman making fun of Ireland right before he called her.

Which might explain why she wasn't too anxious to talk to him. What a jerk. Tease a sensitive 11 year old (any 11 year old is sensitive) on national TV, then get infuriated when she doesn't appreciate the joke. (And he wasn't just talking about her, he was demonstrating her "dance moves" on the Letterman show.)

http://www.tmz.com/

Just a few hours before he blasted his daughter on her voice mail, Alec Baldwin had a few laughs at Ireland's expense on "Late Night with David Letterman."

After telling Dave that his 11-year-old was "doing great," Baldwin regaled the live audience with a story about Ireland's new affinity for dancing in public, then playfully mocked a few of her favorite moves.

When Dave asked if Ireland's new passion was embarrassing for him, Alec replied, "Hey, she could be out stealing cars." Funny he should mention that.

Shortly after the taping, Baldwin tried to call his daughter. We all know what happened next.

[MonkeyFunk]

42. There's no way she could have seen the show

before he called her, if it was just a few hours after. Letterman is taped in the late afternoon.

And I doubt he was calling her at 2:00 am for their scheduled call.

[pnwmom]

44. Who says she watched it on real time? Someone could have taped it

for her, and she could have watched it anytime.

[MonkeyFunk]

45. the assertion

was that she didn't want to speak to him because she had seen his just-taped Letterman show.

She couldn't have see it prior to the call, if he had just taped it.

[pnwmom]

46. That's not the way I read the article. Yes, he had taped it before a live

audience earlier that day. But she could have seen the taped version that night, and he could have called her after that. Or he could have called her the next morning.

But all this begs the question. What kind of loving father would stand up and make fun of his daughter's dancing on national television? And, within a day, launch a screaming tirade against her for not picking up the phone?

[MonkeyFunk]

48. Loving fathers

have used their children as comic foils since time immemorial.

And as has been said before, we don't know the whole context of this - we know what Kim Basinger wants us to know.

And I'm of the mind that calling a kid a "thoughtless little pig" when she acts like a thoughtless little pig isn't very much of a crime. But I'm from an Irish family - we got called worse before breakfast.


edit: as to the timing, here's what the article says:

Just a few hours before he blasted his daughter on her voice mail, Alec Baldwin had a few laughs at Ireland's expense on "Late Night with David Letterman."

[pnwmom]

52. He spent two and a half minutes screaming threats and profanity at her.

He didn't just call her a "thoughtless little pig." You should listen to the audiotape, before you slur Irish families like that.

I don't know any Irish families that would find Baldwin's behavior on that tape to be excusable.

Loving fathers don't make fun of their children in front of other people -- at least not within the child's earshot. And it's one thing for a father of a three year old to laugh about his child's foibles. It's quite another for a father of an eleven year old girl to do a mocking imitation of her on national television.

Tell me about another celebrity that has done something similarly humiliating to his child. Maybe you can think of one, but it's not loving behavior.

[MonkeyFunk]

53. oh please

Bill Cosby made a whole career out of making fun of his children, especially as teenagers.

The one who humiliated this child the worst was Kim Basinger for releasing it. If the child was, in fact, humiliated, it was compounded 1000-fold by having it released to the public.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I think it's a whole lot of hooha over nothing. If the worst thing that happened to a child in america today was to be called a thoughtless little pig, then it was a good day for the nation.

[pnwmom]

56. Why do you keep minimizing this? That wasn't the worst thing he said, it's

just the phrase that keeps being repeated. Listen to the two and a half minutes of venom pouring out of his mouth. This is not a loving man.

I don't remember Bill Cosby making fun of one of his own children -- the only thing I ever remember hearing about his real children is that their first names all began with E for Excellent -- but if he did, I'm sure they didn't like it.

[MonkeyFunk]

57. Cosby's career

for years insisted on mocking the idiocy of his children. His whole TV show was about that theme.

I'm minimizing it because I don't think it's all that bad. Kids get yelled at, and as I said, we don't know the context. Why do you minimize the much greater damage Kim Basinger has done here?

[pnwmom]

59. Guess what? The kids on the TV show were not Cosby's real kids!!!!!

They were actors, playing a role, not kids getting their feelings hurt.

If anyone could listen to that whole two and a half minute audiotape and still think it's not "all that bad," I'd be concerned about that person as a parent.

The judge was concerned enough, after listening to the tirade, to temporarily stop Baldwin's visits.

And I haven't seen any evidence Basinger did anything here. As far as I'm concerned, it's just as likely that the girl forwarded that audiotape on to a friend. It's just the kind of thing a girl of that age might do. (A boy, no, but a girl, yes indeed.)

[MonkeyFunk]

62. No

I'm talking about his standup. His show was a reflection of the standup comedy he was doing at the time.

Be concerned all you want. Parents lose their temper. Kids can be little snots. It's ridiculous to take this one message, without knowing any context, and claiming he's a lousy dad. Should he have said it? No. Does everyone lose their temper at some point? Yes.

and if the girl was truly humiliated by it, you think she'd forward it on? I'll bet you 100/1 that Basinger placed this audiotape. An 11 year old doesn't have PR people.

[pnwmom]

63. An eleven year old has friends.

Friends have parents. It would have been easy for this to get into a concerned adult's hands.

[Clark2008]

73. I think folks need to be reminded of the Occam's Razor theory.

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

I doubt the girl, her friends or her friends parents released this tape. The simplest solution is the mother did it.

Let's not get carried away. I agree with you to a point. My children aren't even close to being teenagers, yet (and an 11 year old in today's society might as well be a teen), but I fully expect to have to yell at them a time or two or three or four. And, will it be pretty and Brady Bunch-like? No. I don't expect to call them pigs, either, and he shouldn't have done it, but it's not like he got us into an unnecessary war, killed 32 people or flip-flopped about an important position.

[pnwmom]

74. Did you listen to the whole tirade? Or just read a couple of phrases?

He wasn't just yelling at her, he was screaming obscenities and threatening her, for more than two and a half minutes.

I've had three kids, and they're all older than that girl and none of them have been subjected to anything remotely like that. Ever. I doubt that your kids have either, frankly.

I'll agree with you that we don't know all the facts in this case, and we never will. But a child forced to live with an abusive, bullying parent might as well be in a warzone. Even verbal abuse can cause permanent damage, and if it's coupled with physical threats -- which that message seemed to imply -- then it can be extremely harmful.
That's why the judge is right to take this so seriously.

[SammyWinstonJack]

83. Agree and I was subjected too some SERIOUS! verbal, mental and physical abuse.

Up close and personal. It went on for YEARS! I'd much rather have been called a few names via long distance!

[pnwmom]

107. You didn't listen to the audiotape then.

In the two and a half minute tirade, he announced, in the midst of all the name calling, that he would be flying out there the next day to deal with her in person. And believe me, he did his best to sound threatening.

[rocktivity]

112. DING DING DING! MonkeyFunk, you're our grand prize winner!

The one who humiliated this child the worst was Kim Basinger for releasing it. If the child was, in fact, humiliated, it was compounded 1000-fold by having it released to the public.

That's right Kim--in your zeal to attack your ex-husband-to-be, you forgot that you'd be humiliating your daughter ALL OVER AGAIN just as surely as if you'd REPEATED Alec's words. YOU ARE JUST AS GUILTY AS HE IS!

:grr:
rocknation

[ncabot22]

157. I tend to agree with you

I, too, am from an Irish family--and when we fought, we fought. I've been called an asshole, pig and a thoughtless little bitch by both of my parents in various stages of anger. Mind you, most of this happened between the ages of 11 and 15. I probably was a thoughtless, self-absorbed little bitch, too. I know I had an attitude.

I'm in my thirties now and am not scarred by it. We yelled, we screamed, we made up. We are a very close family.

[butterfly77]

120. who says she didn't give it to the media herself?

[Triana]

103. BINGO! The child will know that Daddy's behavior is

unacceptable and wrong. She will know that such behavior is NOT to be excused and hidden - even when Dad does it.

I'll tell you WHO Alec Baldwin is worried about: HIMSELF.

What he's REALLY saying is:

"I don't benefit from this at all!" - 'cause that's all the man cares about - HIMSELF.

As for Kim, she is probably sick of people not believing her AND her daughter when they are told how ABUSIVE he is. It's VERY RARE that anyone believes victims of abuse (verbal, emotional, sexual, or physical).

UNLESS YOU KNOW how this feels - the invalidation and the isolation of being abused in darkness and silence while the World thinks HE is "Mr. Wonderful" - DON'T make any assumptions about it.

[pnwmom]

113. I agree. Everything is about HIM.

He doesn't care about her, really, his ego was just wounded and he struck out massively.

[pnwmom]

32. The child could have forwarded this on to one of her friends before

Basinger ever took it to court. Or Ireland could have forwarded it to a relative. There are lots of possibilities, here.

[melody]

3. They're both overaged children doing what divorced people often do

Using their child as a weapon against each other.

I hope Ireland is getting counseling.

[pnwmom]

6. She'll need it. But Basinger can't make Baldwin behave

like a pig. He's managing that on his own.

Most 11 year old girls still adore their fathers, though at that age they're often starting to have problems with their mothers. But if Ireland has problems with him, I can certainly see why.

[Triana]

104. HE is absolutely the sole owner...

...of HIS behavior. Not his daughter. Not Kim. He needs to examine his own issues and stop blaming others for them.

[Cha]

102. And from what I've read..

it's been going on for years. It's like ..isn't that over with yet?

For the sake of their child you would think they would get join custody and get counseling to Get Along!

[pnwmom]

115. They may very well have joint custody but, in any case, that's not a

guarantee that they would ever get along.

Counseling is never a bad idea -- but narcissists are so busy blaming, they're very poor counseling clients.

[AJ9000]

5. We need to call Alec's rant what it was: Child abuse (of the emotional variety.)

I guess his rep of being an arrogant, bullying, prick is true.

[pnwmom]

8. I think it is. Like a lot of narcissists, he can be charming when

he wants to -- especially in the larger world -- but he bullies those closest to him.

I do feel sorry for that little girl. I hope she has SOME normal people in her life .

[melody]

19. Well, we don't really know the whole story

It could seem very different, in context.

However, when I heard his little "it's all about me" fit at his daughter, the first thing I thought was
"classic sociopath".

[AJ9000]

21. "It could seem very different, in context." There is no context to justify

some of what he said. It's child-abuse any way you slice it. Hell she's only what 11? I wouldn't talk to a 17 year old like that.

[pnwmom]

23. You've nailed him -- the "all about me." There is no context

that would justify that tantrum. If he was mad at her mother, that's where he should have directed his anger. Not at his daughter.

He also gives himself away with that ridiculous statement about the big effort he had to make to to call her (yeah, and she's supposed to believe he doesn't carry a cell in his pocket)?

[demobabe]

50. Courts frequently set up schedules for calling

And you have to call at your appointed time or you could be held in Contempt and jailed.

So yes, the phone call and time can be a VERY BIG DEAL.

[electron_blue]

77. Can you give an instance of one person going to jail for missing a phone call like this?

Even so, had he wanted to prove he called, his phone records would back him up.

[demobabe]

91. No, they don't send dads to jail for missing phone visitation

They send them to jail for calling at times other than they're scheduled for (via no-contact restraining orders).

If you're a non-custodial divorced dad, your felon neighbor has more rights to see your children than you do.

Any time you show up anywhere that isn't scheduled or make contact is a potential for jail time.

[electron_blue]

92. odd that isn't the case in my divorce situation. No way would jail be involved after a nonshceduled

phone call or visit. In my experience it takes a heckuva lot more than that to send a noncustodial parent to jail for inappropriate/abusive behavior.

[demobabe]

94. maybe your ex is nicer than others

There are ex-wives out there that get no-contact orders non-stop to either punish their ex for any number of reasons...

- dad is late or misses a child support payment so mom withholds the child to try to force payment or punish dad
- mom is so hurt or mad by situation she tries to cause as much hurt as possible by denying visitation
- mom thinks dad is bad for child so makes up any situation to get dad out of child's life

happens over and over and over... you don't need to prove ANYTHING to get a restraining order. it's pre-emptive, designed to prevent some behavior from happening, and judges grant them liberally (because if they don't, and someone is harmed, the judge could be held responsible for not preventing the danger).

how many times have I heard of a dad being barred from their daughter because of false sexual abuse claims? that one happens ALL THE TIME, and just PROVE it didn't happen if the mom coached the daughter to say certain things.

not every divorce is filled with this kind of behavior, but there are some pretty nasty ones. some divorced parents are able to put their issues aside and truly work in the best interest of the child and support each other in their parenting decisions. if you're able to maintain a civil relationship with your ex and it's mutual, I'm really glad for you. they should all be that way, but some people either really have a bad choice of mate or are unable to act on an adult level.

[electron_blue]

95. You seem to have misunderstood

I am the custodial parent. And I know that I could never have my ex thrown in jail for missing a phone-date (not that I would want to do that). Nor any kind of visit. He's missed plenty of both and no way would that ever get him into jail for contempt of court. They'd laugh me out of court if I even tried that. I hate to see others misled into believing this is a real threat. I also think you are significantly exaggerating the incidence of inappropriate no-contact orders. I'm sure you've no doubt heard of dads being barred under false pretenses. I've also seen that dads (and moms too) can be pretty damn good at fooling others into thinking they're a great parent when really they are incompetent and a danger.

[Mabus]

131. No, you couldn't get him thrown in jail for missing a scheduled visitation

but missed visitations (whether in person or by phone) can be used as reasons to deny expanded visitation rights in the future and/or to cease visitations outright.

You have to remember custody is often an issue of "what's in the best interests of the child," not what the parents want. So, a denial of expanded visitation rights or a cessation of them could result if the custodial parent went to court and argued that missed visitations create an emotional hardship on the child. For example, the custodial parent could argue that the child became sullen or distraught after a missed visitation or scheduled phone call by the non-custodial parent whether the child did or not. I've also seen parents who purposefully interfere with scheduled visitations by making the child unavailable (getting stuck in traffic, lost track of the time and, one of my all-time favorites, "the child doesn't want to see you" when the child was never consulted) and go to court and claim the same thing.

When you're involved in the practice of family law, which I was for a few years as the attorney, you see sides of people that can greatly alter your outlook of your fellow citizens and the pettiness that they are capable of in an emotional and ugly divorce. You'd also understand why some attorneys would rather handle criminal cases than family cases. Jerry Springer's guests have nothing on some of the people I've dealt with in divorce and/or custody cases. I handled divorces with and without kids involved. None of them are fun but custody battles can be especially contentious when there is a battle of wills or when one of the two former spouses wants revenge.

I don't have a dog in the hunt in this case. I just wanted to say that when it comes to divorces, what is known in public is often only the tip of the iceberg of what goes on in private. It is also important how each parent handles the divorce, especially in regard to how it affects the emotional and physical well-being of the children, as well as, what each parent says (or allows others to say about) about the other parent.

I also agree with you that either parent (and other relatives for that matter) are damned good at fooling people that they only have the best interest of the child in mind when they're in front of others. How they treat children in private is a different matter. You can usually tell when a well-mannered child is reflective of the politeness in the household they come from and when a well-mannered child is doing what is expected of them.

[demobabe]

151. Great post. n/t

[demobabe]

134. Been there.

My husband was jailed for five one-dollar bills I folded into a star to put on top of a present sent to him for easter.

My husband's ex decided the five one dollar bills was "drug money" and swore out an arrest warrant on him.

Long story short, my husband was jailed for 20 days after we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in all kinds of mangled family court and civil court actions and he eventually plea bargained after we ran out of money to try to defend him - in the South, to a Jack Abramoff/Christian Coalition installed judge, poisoned with pages from our liberal website.

You're not the kind of insane person who would try to jail their ex at all costs. They are out there, and it's not as rare as you think.

[Infomaniac]

147. I second that sentiment

I know for a fact from my own personal experience how malicious some ex-spouses can really be. My husband's ex argued in court papers that my husband should not have custodial time with his daughter because he did not finish his doctoral dissertation. Seriously. Parents who don't finish high school can see their kids. Her other claims were that he moved once in three years and had changed jobs tiwce in a decade. Each new job was a promotion with more money. Another court filing was for an emergency order to prevent my husband from taking his 5 year old daughter on vacation to the Poconos to visit with some of his family. Her reason for the filing? She thought 100 mile trip to the Poconos would endanger her daughter's life. She demanded that the court order my husband to provide her with the names of the persons he planned on vacationing with and a detailed schedule of activities. Seriously. She didn't get the order, but did get a rebuke from the judge and was ordered into anger management therapy. When we married, she demanded to see a list of the invited guests. His latest court dates involved a demand by ex for his chest x-rays and vacation trips (with receipts) from the last five years, information on the cost of our new dining room set and my financial records from before we were married. Guess what party she supports? The repukes of course.

[demobabe]

149. One of the worst things is the lawyers!

What lawyer ever gave that woman the hope that she could prevail with an argument that a dad should be denied visitation time because he didn't finish a doctoral dissertation? That is so laughable! (unless you're the guy being drug to court)

The lawyer took the case because it's free money. That lawyer knew that if they didn't take the case, their client would keep looking for lawyers until she found one that would!

I would hope that judge just dismissed that complaint...

[Infomaniac]

155. She's gone through a half dozen lawyers

Each court interaction ends with her lawyer du jour refusing to represent her again. She keeps finding new lawyers who believe her lies until confronted in court with her past statements and actions. The last trip to the courthouse nearly landed her in jail for lying about her consideral financial resources. She reported less than a third of her actual income never thinking that the court would require her last year's tax return. Doh! The judge was so annoyed with her, that she dressed the ex down in open court and ordered her to pay my husband's legal fees for that hearing.

We have spent the equivalent of a college education in court. My husband's daughter has some serious mental health issues that her mother did not want to address. For example, the child was in the second grade and would not ask the teacher's permission to use the bathroom. She would urinate at her desk instead It took a year and 40K in legal fees to get his daughter evaluated and diagnosed with behavior, mood and anxiety disorders. She has improved significantly with the help of counseling and medication.

[pnwmom]

109. Restraining orders are put in place when there has been spousal abuse.

Not in all cases.

[demobabe]

148. No, that's not true

Restraining orders are put into place when there is the possibility- however unlikely - that someone could be endangered.

No proof of any abuse need be presented to a judge to get a TRO.

A woman could go in and say "my ex threatened to kill me!" and a TRO will be issued.

Reason is, if she's lying, then she isn't going to get killed. But if she isn't lying and a judge doesn't give the TRO and then she gets killed, then the judge could be held liable.

[Mabus]

204. Difference between TRO and RO

Typicallly a temporary restraining order can be issued when someone requests it and states probable cause and/or the reasons they believe such an order needs to be issued. The next step is an appearance before a judge to explain why the order was filed and then the judge makes the determination whether a RO should be issued. In the alternative, a judge could decide that the TRO has no merit and can dismiss the matter. If the judge determines that an RO is in order than the judge may add some further restrictions (such as increasing/decreasing minimum distance) or other restrictions that the judge sees fit.

But your point is taken. People misuse TROs and ROs all the time for revenge. :grr:

On a lighter note, a lawyer friend who told me about a client he had once who wanted to file for a restraining order to stop the voices in his head from communicating with him. In particular, he wanted the voices to be quiet during the night when he was trying to sleep. Otherwise he was not bothered by the voices during the rest of the day. My friend filled out a TRO form that asked the voices to be quiet during specified times and barred them from specific rooms during those times. He then gave it to the client and told him to put it by his bedside. Apparently it worked. The guy thanked him.

[pnwmom]

108. No divorced person I've ever heard of went to jail for missing a call.

You must know some special people.

:sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

37. Something I didn't know at first -- the context

turns out to be that Baldwin was on the David Letterman show that night laughing about his daughter's new love of dancing, and even mockingly demonstrating some of her "dance moves." And then he called her, and the 11 year old didn't answer. Can you blame her?

When an adult mocks a child in public, and then is infuriated because she doesn't want to talk to him, is he entitled to a 2 and a half minute profanity laced tirade?

No way. Who cares what his relationship is with Basinger? He's destroying his relationship with Ireland all on his own.

[demobabe]

51. Someone upthread said she couldn't have seen the show before he called her

And unless you have experience as a non-custodial parent, I would suggest not casting judgment so fast.

Yes, his comments were not good. But we don't know the full story here. Custodial parents routinely play keep-away with the non-custodial parent, and if you're fighting for the very minimum visitaion you're granted, it can be crazymaking when your visitation is stolen by the custodial parent.

But until you've been there and seen what custodial parents can do to non-custodial parents, I suggest you do a little research. The family courts in this country are a three-ring circus designed to make money for lawyers, and the judges keep these guys in business. The victims are the children, who get tugged between parents who use them to torture and control the other parent and are rarely served by the court's decisions.

[pnwmom]

58. Someone upthread hasn't proved anything.

No one knows exactly when she saw the show, but it would have been easy for her to watch a taped version anytime.

That temper tantrum audiotape tells all the story that needs to be told. The man was out of control -- scary. And he is well known among adults for his rages. Who could blame a child for not wanting to be subject to that?

Yes, I'm sure there are spouses who do things to harm each other's relationship with the children. And that's bad.

But there are also parents who really are BULLIES, and he has all the earmarks. The insults, the rages, the feeling put-upon (he claims he has to make such an effort to find a phone to call her -- why doesn't he use his cell? He's pictured with one!)

[demobabe]

65. You haven't proved anything, either

I listened to the temper tantrum tape. There are some really bad things there. Yes, of course he shouldn't have said those things.

But we don't know the whole story, and I've seen first hand how the court system works, and what I was hearing was a guy pissed at his ex, pissed at the court system, and misdirecting anger at his daughter. Courts routinely strip non-custodial parents of 99% of their dignity and ability to be a parent, and it is a humiliating and heartbreaking experience to go through. Unless you've been there, you can't speak with authority on how things should or shouldn't be. There is more here than meets the eye.

It doesn't matter if he had a cell phone or not. It is clear by the message he left that he has a COURT ORDERED visitation time for telephone visitation, and that the child was not available for her phone visitation.

Courts are really specific about this, and it is possible that he is not allowed to contact her at other times than his court allowed time. Doing so might give him a Contempt of court and land him in jail.

Family court is very serious business, and I believe is responsible for destroying many, many relationships between children and their parents. There is no doubt in my mind that the rage you heard by that man was fueled by a judge in a court somewhere...

[pnwmom]

70. The point is that the rage was misdirected. There is no excuse for that.

If he wants to go to court again, fine. Or yell at Basinger on the phone.

But he shouldn't be raging at his daughter because he's mad at his ex-wife and the system.

And his daughter had reason to not take his call. He had just mocked her on national television. What could be worse for an eleven year old than to have her father up there making fun of her dancing?

He should have been apologizing to her on that voice mail, not raging at her. Maybe she would have called him back. Did you ever think about that? She had a phone. She knows how to use it.

Baldwin's real problem is that the girl is fast approaching the age when a judge will simply let her be the one to decide how much contact she wants with her parents. And he's blowing it. Big time.

[CookCountyResident]

79. I agree that it is up to Basinger

to make sure that the child answers the phone at the correct time, since she is the parent with whom the minor child is residing.

[demobabe]

90. Let me tell you how this works

If there is a custody battle coming up, unless Basinger is putting visable bruises on the child, or booting up on heroin, or prancing around naked publicly - custody will not change, no matter what the child or Baldwin says.

Basinger could mentally abuse that child all she likes, cuss and scream at her, do 1000x worse than that phone recording, and still retain full custody.

A judge will hear what an 11 year-old says about her parents and who she wants to live with, but will not rule based upon their wishes.

Once again, you don't know what the situation is. I don't either.

It's possible the child is forbidden from calling her dad. Did you ever think of that?

My husband had appointed times to talk to his kids. His ex would do everything to try to avoid the visitation.

He'd call, and suddenly, a new toy would show up, or Lion King would be in the VCR... anything to discourage the kids from wanting to talk to their dad. Playing outside. Don't want to come in right now.

If you're the custodial parent, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to YOUR MINOR - NOT the CHILD'S RESPONSIBILITY to have the child at the phone ready for the scheduled phone visitation time. An 11 year-old is not responsible enough to be trusted on their own.

YOU are the parent, and it is YOUR responsibility to allow and promote the relationship with the other parent. Period.

So yes, Baldwin was out of line for raging at the child, but Basinger is out of line for not making sure the child is present for visitation.

[pnwmom]

110. Did you hear Baldwin whine that Ireland would never treat her mother

this way?

Also, in one of his numerous court complaints, he's upset that when his daughter is at his house, she calls her mother too much.

It sounds like Ireland has a better relationship with her mother. But he's not helping the situation by raging at her. It's not going to make her care more for him.

[demobabe]

135. Are you divorced?

Do you have kids?

Do you have ANY experience at all about ANY of this stuff you're saying?

[pnwmom]

136. No, I'm not divorced, but I've gone through

adolescence three times, not including my own.

And I know plenty of people who have been divorced. And they're not abusing their children. When they're angry at the ex, they've had restraint enough to direct their anger at the proper target.

[demobabe]

139. Thank you.

Exactly what I thought.

[demobabe]

138. Of course it's clear she has a better relationship with her mom

Her mom has custody.

But you don't know what is being said while she's there. Children, if you haven't noticed, are easy to influence.

She could be sitting there day in and day out telling her daughter how horrible her dad is to the point she alienates her from her dad. This is known as Parental Alienation Syndrome. Courts don't do anything about this other than strongly caution them not to talk to their kids this way. The don't change custody, but might order supervised visitation.

He could be at wits end watching his relationship deteriorate because of what Basinger is saying... when you only see your child for a limited time, how much influence can you have?

Baldwin shouldn't have said those things, but Basinger should not have released that tape, and she should have had her child by the phone READY for the visitation.

It is abundantly CLEAR there are problems on BOTH SIDES.



ed. typos

[pnwmom]

141. Suppose you are right, and Basinger is bad-mouthing him.

All he does is confirm the worst when he treats his daughter that way.

[demobabe]

145. If I come up to you and start poking you in the chest over and over...

...and I say to you, "you're a violent person," and you say "no i'm not!" (because you aren't)

...and I keep poking you over and over til you decide to shove me and say "STOP IT!"

then I say, "See? You ARE a violent person, otherwise you woundn't have shoved me!"



This is your argument.

So if Basinger badmouths Baldwin to his daughter all day and alienates her from him, then he gets mad and loses it just once - that means Basigner was correct to badmouth him continuously?

Like I said. Baldwin shouldn't have said the things he said. But conversely, Basigner should have had the child ready for phone visitation as this seems to be a running problem with her.

[marshall]

From both sides, but more from the father

Assuming Basinger released the recording and not the child then I do agree that she is acting inappropriately. But as somebody who was this child's age while my parents were divorcing I would not put it beyond possibility that Ireland herself found a way to release the recording, or at the very least encouraged her mother to do so.

[nini]

133. well said

:thumbsup:

[bettyellen]

160. you think letterman fed exed her a tape? LOL. oh wait, that would take a whole day...

unless they arranged a super special privat elive feed via computer for ireland- and somehow i think we would have heard of that- she hadn't seen it. it's impossible, time wise. it aired after their call. deal with it.

[pnwmom]

182. No, I don't. She could have set the VCR herself if she didn't

want to stay up late. But plenty of middle schoolers stay up later than they should.

Especially, I would think, if their dad is going to be on TV that night.

She also could have heard about the show at 9 pm or so from someone who was watching it on the east coast. "Hey, Ireland, your dad's on TV now, and he's talking about you!"

[marshall]

205. I've been where the child is at when my parents divorced

And I empathize with her. As the least powerful in this triangle her interestes should be paramount. I would not fault Basinger for trying to keep her away from Baldwin. If he makes comments like that when he knows he is being recorded who could guess what he says when microphones are off and doors are closed?

[Greyhound]

72. The child of two actors? Don't bet on it.

To me, one of the most mysterious aspects of our culture's worship of celebrity has always been why would you want to be like these people?

The fact that they are actors is a guarantee that they are completely self-centered, that they have become successful in the profession further guarantees that they are utterly without conscience and are completely focused on themselves/their careers (there's really no difference) to a point approaching sociopathy, they are literally the only person in the world, everyone else is merely an object to play off of or to.

If there were any group of people that should be banned from parenthood, it should be performers.

[pnwmom]

75. Counter example: Christopher Reeve.

He was the genuine article, just the man that he appeared to be.

I would never make a blanket statement about any profession, but there certainly are many narcissists drawn to acting. And of course, to politics, too.

[Greyhound]

78. There are exceptions, of course. James Earl Jones would be another.

Still, if you wanted to make a bet, and knew nothing else, betting on performers to be terrible parents is a safe one.

[Triana]

105. Exactly! It's child abuse - and IMO that should be made public...

...it's inexcuseable, regardless the circumstances.

[nini]

132. regardless of the circumstances? hmmmmm

So, if Basinger is brain washing her kid against him, doing everything to keep them apart etc.. then publicize a message left by an extremely frustrated Baldwin that will only add fuel to the fire and embarrass the child with her peers - it's ok?


Do some research on parental alienation - this is a classic case.

Yes, he shouldn't have said what he did and he needs counseling BUT consider what may have put him over the edge.

[pnwmom]

168. Suppose you are right and it's Basinger's fault that they're alienated.

All he has done with this temper tantrum is prove that Basinger's been right all along.

He's out of control.

And a person like that might very well need supervised visitation until he's learned to manage his rages.

[nini]

200. Parental Alienation is not based on what he did wrong here

it's a parent brainwashing and turning the child against the other parent which in turn causes all these situations that only alienate him even more.

As a parent when a divorce occurs the custodial parent is responsible in making sure the child is there to receive the calls/visits etc. It appears from the first part of his message this is not the case and an ongoing problem. He reached his limit and lost his cool.

The temper tantrum you keep referring to is a RESULT of the alienation - not the cause.





Again, you don't understand it and obviously don't care to because you keep questioning it. Therefore, I'm done trying to explain it to you. Do a google search on Parental Alienation Syndrome and read. Then cry for all the kids who have been manipulated to being pawns in a parent's twisted revenge agaisnt the other parent. It's sick.

[HughMoran]

7. probably

so aren't most humans in one part of their life or another.

so?

[pnwmom]

10. Hopefully most parents aren't as mean or narcissistic as this guy.

But you're right, given the overall personality, being a hypocrite may be one of the least of his problems.

[dbonds]

9. Be careful about judging a snapshot.

That was obviously a breaking point where he lost control. It was released to make him look bad. We have no idea why or what lead to that. Maybe he is a jerk, maybe he had a very bad day, or maybe it was the snapping point of all the fighting he and Kim had been doing over his daughter up to that point. I think it is NONE of our business and does not deserve to be news. That is his private business.

[pnwmom]

11. It wasn't just a little loss of control. It was an extended temper tantrum,

totally out of proportion to her transgression (not being there for a phone call) and it was threatening.

And no one knows how it got released, do we? How do we know the daughter didn't just send it to a friend? In which case, it's his tough luck for leaving that hate-filled message.

[CookCountyResident]

80. It WAS supposed to be private business

until someone slipped it to the guy running the celebrity gossip website, and he ran it within minutes even after being warned by Baldwin's own lawyer.

[pnwmom]

116. Yeah, child abuse is supposed to be private, right?

Behind closed doors.

If he has so little self-control that he'd put this tirade on voice mail, imagine what he's capable of when he's alone with her. But if the girl complains to anyone, he says it's Basinger whose putting her up to it.

[Honeycombe8]

12. My thoughts, too. No excuse whatsoever for the verbal abuse he heaped

upon a child. If he snapped from stress, okay, I'll accept that, as an explanation. But it's no excuse.

It is news of a sort, since he is a public figure in the political world, besides just in the entertainment world. It is of consequence what a public figure's character is, esp. when dealing with those in a vulnerable position to him.

Mother is not much of a mom, either, to have released that tape. If she's the one who did it.

[pnwmom]

24. Anyone who had access to the voicemail could have done it,

including the daughter, since he left it for her.

Eleven year olds are young, but they know more about technology than most of their parents. I wouldn't be surprised if the girl didn't forward it to several of her friends. "I hate him!" etc., etc.

[Honeycombe8]

27. Those were my thoughts, too. That the girl and some of her friends...

sent it to TMZ. TMZ seems an odd place for Basinger to have selected to send it. Then again, even if the girl had sent it to TMZ, they may have phoned and gotten Basinger's approval before running it. Who knows.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

25. That sounds weirdly like a threat.

Who are you? Alec Baldwin?

[AJ9000]

26. If you've done that you're an ignorant prick too. What's the rest of that

cryptic bullshit supposed to mean?

[Quixote1818]

14. Anger comes from feeling hurt

It's clear to me that Baldwin really loves his daughter and was feeling very hurt from her not following through with the phone call they had pre-arranged. Baldwin was clearly wrong and out of control but it's also clear that he was feeling very hurt from what his daughter did.

It's sad the media would broadcast such a private family matter and I think it probably did hurt his daughter.

I don't know what is in his book but if he gets too personal about his daughters life then that is wrong as well. It's not clear that that is what will be in the book though. It sounds like it's more about his wife keeping the daughter from him.

[pnwmom]

30. It's clear to me that Baldwin's EGO was wounded,

but not clear to me that he loves her.

[Quixote1818]

38. I think this is more about fear but I am not Alec Baldwin

I get the feeling he is worried his daughter loves her Mother and is pulling away from him. I am not defending the way he reacted because I think some of his words were horrible but I think this is much, much, much more complected than it just being about his ego. He clearly said horrible hurtful things but who on earth hasn't at one time or another?

I had the most loving wonderful mother and father on earth but both of them lost it once or twice over the years and said really hurtful stupid things to me. We are all human and we can all lose control in moments of weakness and stress. Just recently I missed my Uncles Funeral and my Aunt was furious at me for not making it. Evidently she said some very nasty angry things about me. She was hurt because I am her favorite nephew and by me not making it to one of the most vulnerable, painful times in her life hurt her badly! Badly enough that she said some really nasty things evidently. I had several choices as to how to react. I could have just blown her off and never talked to her again, I could have gotten angry back or I could have done what I did. I wrote her a very long letter in which I reached out to her and explained why I couldn't make it. I put my heart into the letter and spoke of old memories and how much she meant to me and how much I loved her. The result was that she forgave me and we moved on. As Spike Jones says in his song "You always hurt the ones you love the most."

I think we need more understanding and communication in this world and less judgment. There is good and bad in everyone and we should look for the good.

Neither of us are inside his head so I suggest we both give him the benefit of the doubt. It's really none of our business and it should have never been broadcast around the world!

[pnwmom]

41. If he had an ounce of real sensitivity, he wouldn't have made fun of her

on national television.

Just before the phone call Baldwin was on Letterman, laughing about his daughter's new love of dance, and mockingly imitating some of her dance moves. Then he called her and when she didn't answer (pretty normal response for a humiliated 11 year old, don't you think?) he launched into a two and a half minute profanity laced tirade. So first he mocked her on national TV, then he was infuriated because she didn't want to talk to him. Can you blame her?

This is typical behavior of a pathological narcissist, by the way. First you hurt someone, then you lash out when they express their own feelings. And when you need someone to blame, you look for someone, anyone, who isn't yourself.

Think how much venom can fill two and a half minutes of yelling, and think how it must have sounded to her when he threatened to come there the next day and straighten her ass out. This isn't an adult man being berated by his old aunt. This is an eleven year old being threatened by her father because she didn't pick up the phone -- after he mocked her dancing in front of the whole country!

I don't think Baldwin needs my understanding. I think he needs to straighten his own ass out. If his daughter has a problem with him, he should stop pointing the finger at anyone else.

www.tmz.com

For a video of Baldwin imitating his daughter's dancing, you'll need to scroll down.

[Quixote1818]

86. Did I miss something?

I watched the video and he was clearly just talking about things daughters do at that age. I got no impression it was done out of meanness. My family does stuff like that all the time and it's all in good fun. The whole audience as well as David Letterman laughed. I think you are seeing way too much into all this. All we saw was a short snapshot of their relationship. Neither of us have a clue of the kind of relationship he has with his daughter and all it's inner workings.

I think everyone needs understanding and counseling. You can chose to see the bad in people or you can chose to see the potential for good in people. Sure Baldwin has made mistakes and maybe he can be an ass from time to time, but does that mean we should just give up on him or even many Republicans? No, everyone deserves a second chance and many of us need to learn better how to work through relationship difficulties. Few people really know how to sit down and talk about things, forgive and grow closer. Its all about communication and I have serious doubts that it's simply an ego thing. Not to mention Baldwin seems quite remorseful about what happened. Until you have forgiveness and an open heart NOTHING can be worked out.

[pnwmom]

117. "The whole audience and David Letterman laughed" -- at Baldwin's

imitation of her.

Oh, sure, any eleven year old would think that was "all in good fun."

:sarcasm:

[vanboggie]

16. Granted he ranted

Give him credit for caring enough about the kid to fly there and straighten her out. Mothers (or fathers) who use their children to get back at ex's are in need of psychological help. Parental alienation, if Basinger is doing it, is cruelty beyond what Baldwin did if he flipped after years of putting up with it. The game playing that goes on hurts the kid more than the ex. I can understand the long-term stress he may be under if this is in fact the situation.


Whatever, not only do we not know the whole story, but more importantly it is none of our damned business. I'm not passing judgement on what he did - that's what a Repuke would do.

[AJ9000]

22. That's a bunch of BS. That was verbal abuse. Period. HE needs straitening out.

[vanboggie]

142. See post 47

Short version, I reiterate that it is none of our damned business and by assuming you know the dynamics of the Basinger-Baldwin relationship you are passing judgement on Baldwin and playing right into RW hands.

[pnwmom]

35. First he goes on Letterman and makes fun of how his young daughter dances.

With a mocking demonstration. Then he calls her and -- when she doesn't answer -- launches a two and a half minute profanity laced, name calling tirade.

Do you have any idea how much nastiness can fit into a two and a half minute message?

He's the one that needs to be straightened out. If his daughter eventually chooses not to see him anymore, it will be his own fault.

[magellan]

20. Agreed

From the way Baldwin went on and failed to hesitate to swear, accuse and call his daughter names strongly implies this wasn't the first time he's spoken to her in that chilling manner. There are no excuses. My mother harangued me in much the same way from my first memories onward, belittling and threatening me as if I were an adult adversary intent on making her life hell instead of a child simply doing childish things. It leaves very deep scars.

If Basinger released the recording then I hope that little girl finds a stable and loving environment to finish growing up in because neither she nor Baldwin deserves custody. At the very least that tirade tells me the less interaction he has with her, the better.

[pnwmom]

36. And to make matters worse, you know what he was doing before the call?

He was on the Letterman show, laughing about her dance moves and even demonstrating some of them for the audience.

And then he goes crazy when she doesn't answer the phone. What a creep.

[AJ9000]

40. Maybe that's why she didn't answer? Man this pisses me off,

[gravity]

28. Alec Baldwin defenders are hypocrits

Imagine their responses if he was a republican.

What he did was abusive and wrong, and I lost all my respect towards him.

[AJ9000]

29. You nailed it Gravity. Well said. nm

[philosophie_en_rose]

33. Exactly.

Alec Baldwin defenders use the OJ Simpson line of reasoning.

If Alec Baldwin did it, here's how he did it. But, if he did do it, then he didn't do it, because the victims do it to themselves. The victims caused the abuse by not being afraid enough to cower before the Almighty Alec. Because Kim Bassinger imitated Baldwin's voice. Because the Black Crusaders are after Tracy Jordan. Because George W. Bush crawled into Baldwin's butt and started talking out of Baldwin's ass. Because the mom was mean to Baldwin, it means it's okay for him to be mean to his kid. Because no one is perfect, so it's okay to degrade others. . . .

:sarcasm:

:eyes:

[spoony]

97. Damn right.

[symbolman]

47. You have no idea what these people have been through

I have, and I can tell you, you don't KNOW what kind of hell any of them have gone through, from her and her dad to the kid..

It's like three blind men feeling up an elephant.

How do you KNOW that Bassinger isn't sleeping with GORILLAS and shooting SMACK all day?

Always stick up for the woman, so sick of that.

Men have NO FEELINGS, hell, they should be CANED in the Public Square for even TALKING to their kids - the NERVE of men to WANT to be WITH their children, and being treated like SCUM by ALL COURTS.

I know, I'm the goddamned Poster boy for that kind of Abuse, and I know for a fact that man is going through HELL.

And that MOST people here have NO IDEA what's happening, NONE, Zippo, Nada.

[pnwmom]

60. And you, apparently,

have no idea what it is like to be the child of a bully.

[symbolman]

66. I've been thrown over kitchen tables

beaten by an Irish mother with a belt, abandoned by my father on the day of my mother's funeral at age 16..

Yeah, I know a little bit about it, and I DON'T Pass it on.

I am an exemplary Father. I've driven around this planet three or more times to see my children at the drop of a hat, forced to live in Campgrounds, washing my hair over a fire to go to court, driven through forrest fires to get my $8 tent when it was all I had.

My ex recorde ALL of my conversations for TEN YEARS just to try to Jail the father of 'her' children. I've spent over 300,000 dollars fighting for custody, with NO police file, while my Ex had one an inch thick, driving my kids around drunk, BITING her live in Boyfriend TWICE in the same year.

The cops came to her house to arrest the Boyfriend, when my 9 year old son told them that my EX had assaulted the man, they took the cuffs off HIM and Arrested HER. (What a nice thing for a kid to go through,eh?)

When he started smoking Pot at age 15 I talked to him on the phone, got him to admit it, told him it was time for a drug test, and counseling (I'd already paid for a shrink at $100 an hour - while she charged the money off on her insurance, defrauded the insurance company - since she'd made them WRECKS) - She had TWO DUI's with Weeks of each other, and was in and out of Institutions.

Me? I was sitting in a NICE home in SoCal, in a small friendly town, didn't drink or use drugs, NEVER struck a child in my life, a great dad.

What happens? I fight for custody, and *I* get sent to a Jail 2500 miles from my home (while my new wife is PREGNANT) by a Right Wing, Fake Christian "lady" Judge on trumped up charges. I had SIX lawyers, and took the case nearly all the way to the Supreme court of that Southern State.

STILL was sent to JAIL in that state for 20 days. Completely INNOCENT. Railroaded, and you would not BELIEVE what they can do to you, I know, I found out. That jail has been compared to a South African PRISON by CONGRESS.

So, yeah. I know a little bit about Parental Alienation.

My sons are a total loss now. The eldest does nothing but smoke pot - gave him a car, a room, and free board in HAWAII IF he wouldn't do drugs. He SMOKED and LIED, like his mother, so I sent him packing. The younger on will Never hold a job in his life.

My NEW son? Hes an ANGEL. Smart, Loving, surrounded by love and intellgent rearing - I studied Piaget in College. My minor was Art Education for CHILDREN. I've worked in HEAD START, and with a LOT of kids, big Irish Family as well.

I KNOW ALL ABOUT what Pain this man is going through, and the SYSTEM will DESTROY a man. It's slanted in Women's favor, there is NO denying that.

I would like to see some laws changed.

ONE? MANDATORY VISITATION. PERIOD.

A good start.

Don't Blame the man. He is screaming at his EX, the JUDGES that have WRonged him and a system that makes MOST MEN, nothing more than Walking WALLETS, and SPERM DONORS who can't even get a FISHING LICENSE, let alone a Medical LICENSE so they can Provide for their kids.

The man is HURTING and people don't care. Well, I DO.

[pnwmom]

69. I'm sorry about what you've gone through. But your situation is different.

His temper tantrum directed at his eleven year old daughter, recorded on tape, is all I need to know about him -- I don't care what his relationship is with his wife, he doesn't have the right to take it out on his daughter.

By the way, did you read how -- hours before he called her -- he was on the Letterman show, i.e.,, national television, making fun of how Ireland dances? With a demonstration of her dance moves? I bet you wouldn't do something like that to one of your children.

Don't you think that that humiliation could have accounted for her not wanting to take his phone call? Abusers often do that -- throw insults and then get infuriated when the victim shows his or her own feelings.

Again, what Baldwin did is not disputed. He's not disputing the abusive call, he's just trying to justify it. And he can't. You can't justify taking out your rage against one person on another -- especially a child whom you claim to love.

If that girl doesn't want to see him for a good long time, it will be his own fault.

[demobabe]

154. The call was bad. He shouldn't have done it.

But it's clear there is a visitation problem going on promoted by the mother.

Otherwise, the child would have been present for her scheduled phone call with her dad and there wouldn't have been an inappropriate recording instead.

[pnwmom]

169. What about his little performace a few hours earlier on Letterman?

Where he was laughing about how much she loves to dance and imitating for the audience some of her dance moves? Don't you think that a humiliated 11 year old might not have wanted to talk to her father under the circumstances?

[demobabe]

174. Gawd, get off it already

Why do you keep beating the same dead horse? Are you ignoring what other people are posting?

There was no way for her to have been humliated by what he did on that show because she would not have seen it.

You do not have all the facts. Nobody does.

To cast judgment on two minutes of poor behavior is using the same lack of sense Baldwin used while recording that stupid voicemail. Snap judgment based on emotion, not facts. That's just not right.

[pnwmom]

177. B.S. She could have easily seen it. Nobody knows the timing of all this

except that he taped it and some hours later, he called her.

[demobabe]

179. Someone else showed the timing.

Tell me why Kim Basinger wasn't making sure the child was available for her scheduled visitation?

Why did Kim Basinger allow this tape - which was supposed to be confidential out to the public? She is lashing out at her ex by using her daughter. That is deplorable.

That is Parental Alienation which is child abuse. Far worse than Baldwin's idiotic message.

[pnwmom]

181. We don't know who put the tape out. It could have been the girl,

a maid -- anyone who was inside the house and had access to the phone. Basinger isn't the only possible candidate.

Baldwin is alienating his daughter HIMSELF and that tape proves it.

[demobabe]

203. Doesn't matter WHO released it

It was Basinger's phone and her voicemail. She is 100% responsible for it's release, no matter who released it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. My story ended happier than your sons

At age 5 my mom ran with me to California where we lived with a variety of relatives and strangers and in the LA projects. Even 5 year-olds must learn how to fight there.

My mom's sister eventually called my dad, told him where I could be found and told him he needed to come get me.

He did, took me back home to Washington and was charged with kidnapping.

My life could have quickly reverted to the bad life with mom that awaited me except for one lucky break; mom came to court drunk. As easy as a target as mom could have been, and as inexcusable as her behavior was, dad never interfered with her visitation, nor did he, or my stepmother ever bad-mouth her.

Parental alienation absolutely exists, and it takes an extremely bad mom for any dad to get a fair shake in the patriarchal system. Luckily for me, she was really, really bad.

[symbolman]

164. Man, I'm sorry to hear that

But your dad was wise. Like I used to tell my ex, "even if YOU think I'm a bonehead, the kids need to KNOW that, they might learn something.. besides, each of us is a part of them, and if they DENY a part of themselves, they'll never grow up right.."

Wish my ex had walked into court DRUNK. She was drunk the rest of the time. Nothing like Pulling into a gas station and FILLING THE TRUNK with GAS, then Kicking the Attendant when he called the Police. RESULT? NO DUI. Her Lawyer was able to prove that the KEYS weren't in the IGNITION, so THAT one didn't COUNT.

Amazing isn't it?

You are lucky, even the bad parts of your life help you get the GOLD OUT in yourself, eh?

Glad you made it, people and kids are a lot tougher than people think..

[lse7581011]

93. Wah Wah Wah! n/t

[symbolman]

152. Yeah

You'll be saying that if it happens to you..

[vanboggie]

140. Exactly

And I am the wife of a poster boy for that as well. My husband loved his kids, he paid his child support, he picked them up every other weekend and on holidays (plus every time she wanted to be rid of them), AND he never said a word to them about what that woman did to destroy him. What did the ex who had cheated on him several times do? She turned the kids against him at every opportunity, to the point of telling them he didn't care about them and didn't love them and blamed the divorce on him. Now that they are adults they understand and all but one is closer to him than to her. He went through hell through that parental alienation period - I should say we went through hell, and that frustration can stress a guy out to the breaking point. Did my husband ever berate the kids, no, but I can certainly understand how it could happen.

I stick by my statement above, nobody here knows the dynamics in this relationship and more importantly it is none of our damned business. Don't we have more urgent things to worry about like fascism, global warming, the trampling of the constitution, Iraq. Geesh. This is playing right into RW hands.

[symbolman]

163. Yep

every word is true, your husband is a Brave MAN. It takes so much STRENGTH to do that, people have no idea, and in all those years if you SLIP ONCE and let the sound of your breaking heart be heard they will NAIL YOU TO THE WALL, as many here are doing, many that have NO IDEA what it sounds like.

Like trying to explain the Aurora Borealis to a blind man :)

Yeah, sure, he screwed up, in many ways it's none of my business, but if you really look at it, the one making the most noise is actually the one being screwed. She's just sitting back destroying the relationship, and his Honor, not that he's NOT falling into the trap.

I'd LOVE to have man of the folks who claim the higher moral ground have ALL of THEIR Phone calls RECORDED for TEN YEARS and see how they measure up.. they might be surprised what a court can "READ" into a statement..

Good for your Husband, tell him another "Beat Dead Daddy" is proud of him :)

[vanboggie]

194. Will do...

...and you described the heartbreaking pain of a situation like this better than I did. Trying to be a good dad with the other parent working against you is a horrible situation to endure, especially stretched out over several years. I like your "Beat Dead Daddy" description, and I'll let hubby know.

[Infomaniac]

159. I do know what can happen.

I'm sorry that you haven't gotten an even shake by the courts. It took nearly a year, a slew of court dates and a truck load of money for my husband to get an even shake from the court. Men who don't have the financial resources to hire an Atilla the Hun family law attorney can and do get shafted by the courts. No doubt in my mind. I hope things start going your way soon.

[symbolman]

161. Thanks

Sorry to hear about your husband's troubles, if you need advice feel free to PM me.. I've been through the ringer, and know the whole score.

It's too late for me, the damage has been done, kids are grown - well, one is now 16, but I don't even bother to contact him, and he hasn't called me but once in probably 4 years. He's lost, he'll never hold a job, she sucked all motivation from both boys, they have no perspective, no humanity, it's sad, but they're both pathological liars like her. Not a single true statement comes out of their mouths, ruined for good.

The oldest one saw that the biggest LIAR gets what they want in court, so he was Taught by cruel judges to effect that mode in his life. He'll be a drunk, pot smoker for at least 10 years if he wakes up at all.

I won't have lying or drug use in my house, period. All those years I fought for custody, and once he was in my house I kicked him out. He had an apartment in the home, snuck beer in (which they do, sure, I would), but smoked weed, put out cigarettes on the CARPET, etc, etc.. no class, no honor, no morals.. her.

I've got enough to write two books. If I had it all to do over again I'd just walk away and give up, but I NEVER did. Each and every Court ordered visitation I WAS THERE, even if I had 98 cents left they got to her house, safe and sound.

People really have no idea unless they've gone through it, not at all. I didn't care about other people's kids when a young guy, you just think, "Well, just go SEE your kid then.." and have no idea that they are HOSTAGES. The only BONE the court gives you is continually taken away, a slow bleed that tears your heart out. Then on top of it, you get to watch you kids turn into complete losers, when they might have had the benefit of a Loving Home and been ANYTHING they wanted to be.

Even Attila the Hun can't win sometimes - Like I said, I had SIX lawyers and STILL went to jail, though I owed NO child support and paid medical, called every time I was TOLD by the court, fought for EVERY visitation.. made no difference. If a hateful right wing judge wants your ass, they'll just make shit up, and JAIL YOU.

I'm used to the Bush Regime, I've been assinated already, many times over.

But now I have a NEW son, one that I can love, who loves me dearly, an angel, and a wife who isn't rat shit crazy, so life is pretty good. To be honest I don't care if I ever see those kids again, they not even human in many ways, and I don't want them NEAR my new son, they'd probably hurt him, like their mother did to them, it's all they KNOW. Poor kids think that Adrenalin shakes are Nurturing :)

I hope all goes well for your hubby, if you want any tips, let me know - I know them ALL :)

All the best to you!

[orleans]

54. i heard a clip of baldwin's message on the radio friday

but i heard and read along with the entire clip on olbermann's show later.

what struck me was that he said this has happened "over and over and over again"

and it dawned on me that this type of thing happened to a friend of mine. he was a long distance dad--him and the wife divorced and she had custody of their boy. him and the ex were bitter. he was trying to continue a relationship with his son.

and there was a point where he could call and they wouldn't answer. he was leaving messages saying when he would call back, the day and time, etc. and nothing. sometimes the wife would pick up and say the boy wasn't home or he wanted to go play baseball or he was over at a friend's house, etc.

it got to the point where the dad wondered if his boy was even getting the messages or was the ex screening the calls, etc. and no matter what the planned day & time was that he said he would call back and then call, he was never talking to his kid. and it happened "over and over and over again."

and if i remember correctly, he left a message similar to the one baldwin left out of hurt and frustration. and then he decided he wasn't going to call his kid anymore. and he didn't--for about a year or a year and a half.

(i'm not saying i agreed with what he did--we used to argue about it and i used to tell him that he was supposed to be the adult in the relationship, and that he wasn't supposed to give up on his kid because his feelings were hurt because his kid was still a kid)

but i know he was unhappy and hurt and frustrated. so when i heard the whole tape on olbermann it was a distant bell.

[pnwmom]

61. I bet your friend didn't sound as vicious, did he?

And for two and a half solid minutes?

If he's so far gone he'd actually put a tirade like that on VOICE MAIL, what would he say to her in person?

Maybe there's a reason his daughter is repeatedly avoiding him, if she is.

Some children really are afraid of their parents and, unfortunately, they have good reason to be.

[symbolman]

68. Thanks for bringing this up

If you've lived this, it's a NIGHTMARE. No one can keep it up for long, it will grind you into a powder, sap you of all energy. I can't believe how some people can't realise how BAD it feels to NOT KNOW where YOUR KIDS ARE?

It's a lot like someone has STOLEN YOUR KID and You have no idea WHERE they are..

If someone steals a child people all start screaming about how that POOR person is SUFFERING.

yeah, well.. that's what DADS go through all over this country ALL NIGHT LONG FOR MONTHS.

I once wondered why no one was calling back, sent the cops over to my ex's house and THEY HAD MOVED.

I didn't know WHERE my son's were for nearly a MONTH.

Just TRY to imagine how that feels. Unless you've been through it, you CAN'T.

I thank you for bringing this up, this man deserves sympathy, and sure, if I was the Judge I'd give him 6 months of supervised visitation.

But if I FOUND OUT that the mother had leaked this to the Press?

I'd give her a WEEK in Jail.

[Checkstub]

64. short version: Alec Baldwin is Hitler!

He had me at little pigs!:evilgrin:

[JNelson6563]

71. Well he's lost my vote!

Oh wait, he's not running for anything. Nevermind.

Hooray for celebrity gossip and lots of corporate media nonsense distraction crap on DU! Ugh.

Julie

[NashVegas]

76. I'm Sure His Book Will Be Very Enlightening

The nation has heard, via his message to his daughter, the effects of parental alienation.


I'm not bothered that it's coming from him. Where can we find a better example?

[donco6]

81. I think she was a rude thoughtless pig. eom

[edhopper]

82. Reminds me of a friend's comment

about the Nanny reality show. She's a parent and said that nothing shown on that show lead her believe that any of the children were out of control. Just edit the right incidents after of days of filming and any child will look like a monster.
It would be hypocritical to not acknowledge that we have all heard many parents we know (at least here in New York, were cursing is much more tolerated) use the same language at times when they are truly upset.
I'm sorry, I think this is a private matter and it is shameful how much time the media is giving this.

[donco6]

84. Here's my thought:

When everyone condemning Baldwin is willing to put all their private conversations on the Internet, then we may have something to discuss. Till then, we should all butt out.

[Obamarama]

88. Now there's the sanest comment I've seen all day!

Thanks for bringing some needed perspective to this three ring circus that really isn't a)news and b)any of our business.

[Poll_Blind]

99. Ding ding ding! Finally.

  You may not have been the first but you're the first comment I saw in all these threads which actually has some relation to reality. It makes me sad that your comment is the lone fish swimming one way while the rest of the school seems to be nipping at each other and generally behaving as though this....was....somehow...important.

  Anyway, thank you,

PB

[pnwmom]

126. It's important to me that so many people here are unable

to recognize clear abuse.

[Poll_Blind]

143. Well, here's to you ending abuse. One internet message at a time.

:toast:

  Somehow, I think the Goldwater Rule might not apply to the quality of your analysis.

:grouphug:

PB

[pnwmom]

119. Abusers take advantage of our respect for their privacy

and children suffer.

It's always worked that way, and I don't know the answer.

[pnwmom]

118. This was clearly verbal abuse and it concerns me that so many people

here are excusing it.

[symbolman]

153. How long are you going to keep this up?

Seriously, all you do is repeat the same lines over and over to different people.

Why don't you go DO something about it, and get back to us.

Put a big Bandage on all the Boo Boos out there.

Sheesh.

Assasinating a liberal's character over and over on the basis of ONE phone call.

It's not like the guy strangles puppies.

Where is all this FORGIVENESS I have heard about and try to practice myself?

He's being treated like a Child molester, and YOU are insulting TONS of "normal" people who lose their cool once or twice in their lives.

Get over it already, unless you've struck GOLD in a thread and want to keep it going, completely understandable, but CREEPY.

[pnwmom]

170. And when are you going to quit? I see, he's a LIBERAL,

so he's above criticism.

Right.

[symbolman]

175. Define Liberal

Is it FORGIVING others?

Is it LIVE AND LET LIVE?

Is It Character assassination?

Is it going on and on about Something you can do NOTHING about, other than a splinter that someone keeps pushing on?

Invalid response. Sounds like a dead giveaway to me. Pt Cruiser style.

[pnwmom]

176. Why should I define it? You were the one who said he was a liberal,

as if that's something that mitigates child abuse.

[symbolman]

178. I think you have me mixed up with someone else now

You've said the same thing to so many people now that it appears that you may not even remember who you are spewing at anymore..

Why are you going after Liberals anyway?

And who are you to define it as Child abuse and say it's a FACT.

Are you a trained Counselor, Psychiatrist, Mental Health Professional?

Otherwise your "opinion" is no more valid with no other facts than anyone elses.. just more incessant.

[pnwmom]

180. Maybe you ought to read your own posts before you send them.

If not afterwards. This is what you said, just a couple posts upthread (#153):

"Assasinating a liberal's character over and over on the basis of ONE phone call.

"It's not like the guy strangles puppies."

[symbolman]

183. Oh gee

that makes me a BAD PERSON TOO.

It's not like You're keeping SCORE or anything.

You know, there are MUCH worse things than yelling at people. There is the slow boil of parents that GUT THEIR CHILDREN, By pitting them against each other. GAME PLAYERS.

[pnwmom]

185. So there are only two kinds of parents, in your view?

The kind that rage at their children, and the kind that gut their children and pit them against each other?

I'm actually a lot more hopeful than you, because I think most parents are good enough and not abusive to their children.

[symbolman]

187. Hopeful?

I'm not the one trashing a Well Respected LIBERAL who made a mistake, has Apologised for it, and is ceaselessly attacked by you.

Time to move on, isn't it?

Maybe get yourself a big sign and stand by the road, instead of clogging up the DU with Vitriol and sanctimonousness when there are 300 people a DAY DYING in Iraq.

While You worry about a SINGLE 11 year old You will NEVER MEET.

Sounds a bit Obsessive don't cha think?

And you didn't answer my question, WHY are YOU attacking a Liberal ENDLESSLY?

[pnwmom]

188. Why are you defending him endlessly?

As I said, being a liberal doesn't mitigate an anger management problem.

Baldwin isn't the real issue for me. I think it's important that people recognize abusive behavior for what it is. His words were threatening and abusive.

Unfortunately, you and others seem to think that being a liberal gives you some kind of pass. It doesn't.

[symbolman]

191. Yeah it is

he's your whipping boy.

And You've been Judge, Jury, and Executioner since this broke.

I suspect the motive, and I'm going to no longer kick what I believe is a thread that has reached the point where it's obsessive and near sickness.

This thread no longer serves a purpose.

Bye now.

[Jade Fox]

85. Right.....

Now, if Alec Baldwin was a group of spoiled, rich white boys abusing a black stripper, he'd have your sympathy. :eyes:

[donco6]

87. Good memory.

:)

[spoony]

98. Alec Baldwin IS A RICH SPOILED WHITE BOY

[pnwmom]

122. Yeah, but he's a Democrat, like Nifong,

so that means we have to support him no matter what.

:sarcasm:

[Jade Fox]

195. Based on what?

Baldwin is a middle class/working class boy from Long Island who made his own way in the acting world.

[pnwmom]

121. There is proof that he made the abusive phone call. And it's abusive no

matter what the context was.

The accused Duke students did nothing except drink underage and hire a stripper who brought false charges of rape and assault.

My sympathies extend to people I think deserve it.

[Jade Fox]

196. Once again, you are....

making yourself the judge in a case where all you know is what the media has told you.

There is plenty of proof that the little darlings at Duke were acting like abusive creeps, even if they managed to skirt breaking the law. All Baldwin did was make a phone call, for crying out loud. Ugly though it may have been, how many of us would look good if our worst parenting moments appeared on the nightly news?

[merh]

201. Let me ask you something about your "proof"

Do you know if the daughter even heard this message, if she had control over her phone? Do you?

How do you know whether or not mom took her phone from her, waited for the call time to pass, checked the messages and then turned the recording over to her lawyer and the press? (Press has it and it had to come from someone.)

You have made assumptions based on your limited life experiences and your limited knowledge of what happened and the dynamics of the relationships involved. You have discounted others that have shared different perspectives with you. How many folks have shared with you their own life experiences and yet you continue to obsess about this as if your view is the only view, as if your judgment of the telephone message is all there is.

Mind you, the most amazing thing about your thread and so many comments found it is are the judging the words about bullying, yet if read the personal snarks, personal attacks and sniping comments made by those who differ from the "hate Baldwin" crowd. How odd that even on message boards bullying and anger occurs, tempers flair and meanness oozes and without the same emotional investment as held by your perceived villain.

[spoony]

96. Good to see someone call it like it is k and r

[AtomicKitten]

100. again - this issue is none of our business

Just because the MSM dragged it into the limelight doesn't give us license to pontificate as if we know all the angles. Baldwin and Basinger are knee-deep in an acrimonious child custody battle, and one side has used this tape as ammunition against the other. As repulsive as Baldwin's words were, Basinger airing this bit of nastiness publicly is also bereft of integrity; neither in the best interest of the child.

It is up to us to rise above the basest proclivity of human nature to gossip, acknowledge we don't know all the facts, and wish them all well in their fractious legal proceedings, hoping somebody in the midst of the all the finger-pointing and blaming realizes a child's wellbeing is what matters.

[pnwmom]

123. Child abuse is always best kept behind closed doors.

If you're the abuser, that is.

[AtomicKitten]

129. careful you don't fall off your soapbox

The MSM has hit their target audience ....

[Triana]

101. NO. Alec Baldwin is a Narcissist and an Abuser

Their M.O. is:

1. PROJECT their behavior onto others and /or blame someone else for it. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault they blew up.
2. use their kids (or anyone else they can think of) as an EXCUSE and a shield for their behavior
3. attempt to minimize the damage and the severity of their behavior
4. try to garner pity and sympathy for themselves to get others to excuse their behavior...

to name a few things.

Think: alcoholic

SAME behavior. Except abusers are addicted to CONTROL instead of alcohol. (or, sometimes BOTH)

Typical abuser. Learn more at:

http://www.verbalabuse.com
http://www.drirene.com/
http://www.lovefraud.com/index.html (about sociopaths)
http://tinyurl.com/3aj7e3 (Patricia Evans - The Verbally Abusive Relationship)
http://tinyurl.com/39dulc (Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men)

I WONDER how many times he told Kim "You're too sensitive!" after he got done verbally ramrodding her and/or humiliating her in public and she complained about it.

Hmph. Ladies and Gents of DU: If ANYONE you're involved with verbally / emotionally abuses you (makes you the butt of an ugly joke in front of your friends, for an example or calls you a really nasty name), they do it habitually, and then when you tell them it's hurtful - they say "you're too sensitive!"...

RUN

LIKE

HELL

away from that relationship. I kid you not. It's a HUGE red flag that the person is abusive. Along with the projection and blame, excuse-making, minimizing, etc. Don't end up with another Alec Baldwin.

[polichick]

114. That's what it looks like to me too...

These characters are so good at making most people think they're wonderful while they abuse the ones who are close to them, I've wondered if maybe Kim or the daughter saw it as a chance for those who have been snowed to see his true colors. It must be horrible to share custody with a sociopath, to know that by law you have to put your child in his or her "care."

[Triana]

165. BINGO!!!

They have that Jekyll / Hyde act goin on! They have an "oh-so-wonderful" public face but in private they're MONSTERS! So when their victims/kids tell anyone how abusive they are - NO ONE believes them.

I can assure you it is quite horrifying to have to give your kid time with an abusive parent - and I have NO doubt that Kim and maybe Ireland too, saw this as a chance to let others see "Mr. Hyde".

Common trait of abusers - they're two-faced. They present one face to the world (generous, respectful, wonderful) and their REAL face to their victims (sociopathic, abusive monster).

It's textbook. And Alec Baldwin fits the mold. He's DEFINITELY an abuser - and being a narcissist goes along with that.

These people think they are ENTITLED and they get off (literally, get a feeling of power - it's a rush for them) on CONTROLLING others. It's what they live for. It's like a drug to them. And their victims are their "supply".

In the case of Baldwin's phone call to his innocent daughter - he was making HER his supply. He's an abuser, narcissist and it goes without saying - control freak. Obviously.

[pnwmom]

171. Welcome to DU, polichick!

I do have a friend in that situation, and there were some very difficult years. Fortunately, the children are old enough that they could always get home now, if they needed to.

[pnwmom]

124. Good, informative post, Triana. Thanks.

I have a couple friends who might have benefited from that.

[Triana]

166. Send 'em the links!!!

And for God's sake PM me if you want more info!!!

[saracat]

106. DU posters who condemn Baldwin are hypocrites. This is nothing but a junk story!

My own parents yelled at me far worse than Baldwin and used more colorful language! Is it now a "crime" to lose your temper with your kid?/ Jimiony Christmas.Give the man a break.I am so thrilled that so many on DU are perfect.Last week I learned how many "always " wear seat belts and have "NEVER" forgotten to buckle up like that arch criminal Corzine .Now I see many Duers are "perfect" parents who have "never" yelled at their kids or lost their tempers.We already know that the men would "Never " spend " &200 for a haircut.
Frankly, I am stunned.I had no idea so many DUers were so perfect and thus able to be "judgmental " with equanimity! I feel so worthless.I hang my head in shame at my lack of perfection. :sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

125. It's hard to believe that you actually heard the whole tape.

But if you did, and your parents yelled at you far worse, than I'm sorry, because that's abusive.

Of course all parents have lost their tempers. But most, I hope, haven't been blatantly abusive.

And we should be able to recognize when the line has been crossed.

[gatorboy]

111. Worst. Book Promotion. Evah.

[pnwmom]

127. LOL. n/t

[nini]

128. My sister was a victim of parental alienation

My piece of shit ex brother-in-law turned her two boys against her to the point where they would get somewhat violent with her if they were forced to spend time with her. She was blamed for EVERYTHING wrong in the marriage. She was robbed of almost 6 years of their early teens to 18 or so. The ex made damn sure those boys were bullied to the point they never questioned him because they didn't want the same treatment their mom got.

The oldest finally started catching on when he graduated from high school and now sees his father as the evil piece of shit he is. She has reconciled with the boys now and they walked her down the aisle when she remarried which was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen in my life.

BUT let me tell this to anyone who thinks parental alienation is not real and the most frustrating thing in the world to convince the courts of - it is a nightmare from hell. My sister was broken from having her boys taken from her - I have no idea how she survived it all. She described it as having your kids kidnapped but you knew where they were.

I can understand Baldwin's rage though he shouldn't have said what he did - but I definitely understand his frustration. What happens in these situations is the kids take on the alienating parent's battles for them. This sounds like what is going on here. It is near impossible for the alienated parent to NOT want to scream at them - they too are only human after all. He needs counseling to continually reinforce how he needs to deal with the daughter knowing she is being played by her mom.

It appears Kim Basinger is playing the same game with their daughter as my sister's ex did. If so, SHE is the parent at fault here. Sad thing is these kids are so scarred from this that even if he gets custody the child will rebel - this is EXACTLY what she wants. She is evil for doing this.

Baldwin should have controlled himself better, but I completely understand where he is coming from having seen what was done to my sister. I hope eventually it'll work out for him and his daughter but he'll never get back what was taken from him.

ANYONE who thinks Basinger is justified with what she did does not understand what is going on here. People who alienate the other parent do so at the risk of the emotional well being of the children because their own narcissitic egos think it's justified to do so. They put their own need for revenge before the good of the child - they are the lowest of the low.

[pnwmom]

144. Unless your sister also raged at her children,

it's not the same situation.

If Basinger is badmouthing him, he has just provided Ireland with proof that Basinger's right.

[nini]

146. You obviously don't understand or believe P.A. is real

Plus you didn't read that I said his words were not ok, just understandable if she is doing what it appears to be done.

If Basinger is bad mouthing him to her kid?????? WTF? She has no right to turn her child against him - and you wonder why he's pissed?

If Basinger is indeed doing what I suspect and appears to be going on.. she is guilty of underhanded manipulation of the child which creates situations most people can't even begin to imagine how awful it is. As she does this she presents herself as the only loving parent the kid has - it's an evil game where the other parent is at their wits end trying to get to see their kids and talk to them on the damned phone.

My sister did not take any crap from the kids but she did not use the language he did. He was wrong for that - I didn't deny that.

My whole point is I understand where he is coming from and if you listen to the entire message it's pretty easy to see what is going on.


Seriously, look up parental alienation and see for yourself - it's real and it's ugly.

[pnwmom]

167. How do you know what Basinger is really doing? What she says to Ireland?

Ireland would have plenty of reason of her own to avoid her father, based on this rage attack.

[nini]

198. THAT'S PART OF THE WHOLE ISSUE WITH PARENTAL ALIENATION

Do you really think it's a coincidence he is writing a book about parental alienation and she releases this tape just in time? Anyone who is familiar with this problem knows exactly what she's doing. She is the manipulating one here. Parental Alienation means one parent turns the child against the other - this is exactly why this child doesn't feel compelled to take his calls.

You are extremely naive regarding this issue and while you are justified in saying his words were over the top you are dead wrong to not look deeper into the rest of the message. It was much more than the little pig comment. The beginning of that voice mail laid it out and proves that alienation is going on.

Criticize him for losing his cool but wake up and see this child has been brain washed by her insecure evil mother.

I have zero compassion for any parent who does this to their children. When it's all said and done what she is doing to their daughter will have the lasting emotional issues to carry. My nephews are now having to work out guilt over what they did to my sister in their evil twisted father's name. If you could talk to them you'd have a better grasp of just how vicious all this is. They did things far worse to my sister than not answer the phone. I credit my sister in that if she had not been such a loving level headed mother they would never have worked through all this shit.

People just cannot imagine someone could do this. they do and it's far more common than you could imagine. You are blaming the victim here. Like I said he went over a line on his choice of how he delivered his message - but the message was justified.

But let's answer your question with a question - how do YOU know his rage wasn't part of him being on the other side of Parent Alientation? How would you feel if a child was turned against you because the other parent was selfish, insecure and evil? How do you know what he claims is PA is not true?


The signs are there screaming out the truth - you're just not in tune with the signs of PA to know it.

[jazzjunkysue]

130. Save Alberto! Hurry!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=723493&mesg_id=723493

[winston61]

137. There should be laws that prohibit actors from

procreating. As soon they get the SAG card, mandatory sterilization. Baldwin and Basinger are both pathetic asshats that do not deserve to have anything.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

150. The Bloodsport Of Divorce

If we don't have recordings of all personal conversations by both parents and the child,
we don't have the full picture.

But for sure, releasing that phone message to the public will greatly embarass the daughter.

It didn't have to be made public, IF the daughter feared her father, she could release it
to the authorities.

Also, isn't it true that adept hackers can hack into the phone accounts and voice mails?

The Bloodsport Of Divorce

http://www.ejfi.org/family/family-22.htm#pgfId-1456782

Men's And Women's Resources — By State

http://www.ejfi.org/Help/Help-2.htm#pgfId-998197

I don't think the things Baldwin said in the message constitute a crime although they
were horrible.

I can tell you that teenagers or near teenagers know how to rile up their parents if they want to.

Often if one parent is troubled in a certain way, the other parent may be troubled in an equally serious if not similar manner.

(Not always, but often).

[Raine]

156. It's verbal abuse

and there is no excuse for it whatsoever. My mother grew up with a mother who was verbally abusive and she bore the scars of it her whole life. Luckily my mother fought hard not to repeat the pattern with her own children and never ever did to my brother or myself.

[pnwmom]

172. That's the thing. We have to recognize it as abusive so that we

don't repeat it down through the generations. Good for your mother!

[pacalo]

158. Let's have every man & women reveal every angry moment about their s.o.'s to the press for everyone

to decide whether or not they're hypocrites; after all, by this unreasonable standard, if anyone loses their temper brought on by frustration & unfairness, they should be reported so that everyone can judge them.

I say, shame on Kim Basinger & her attorney for creating a public spectacle out of a sad situation between an anguished parent & a confused, manipulated daughter. What do we know about what's going on with their lives that pushed Alec Baldwin to his limit? And why should this preoccupy our thoughts? What makes this news is the fact that he's an actor who has spoken out against BushCo.

[pnwmom]

173. I think that's why so many DUers are on his side.

But if he were Tom Cruise, or Gov. Terminator, we wouldn't be hearing all this defense of verbal abuse.

It doesn't matter WHY he said what he said. It was wrong, no matter what the provocation.

And, just common sense wise, it's an awfully stupid way to make his daughter want to spend more time with him. But it's typical of a narcissist -- to scream at his child that she's not loving him enough!

[pacalo]

202. We all agree it was wrong.

What disappoints me is that, above all people, DUers should know this Rethug silence-the-liberal-messenger-by-minimizing-our-regard-for-him game by now. I'm disappointed to see DUers add fuel to the fire against Baldwin & not being enraged against those responsible for publicizing a taped private conversation between a frustrated father & his daughter. Common sense tells me that no concern was shown for the daughter's feelings in releasing the tape; it was meant to be used as a weapon by legal bullies who are interested in winning a legal game.

[SoCalDem]

184. Humans who create children should think of the children

when they eventually separate. the child is NEVER "divorced"...just the other parent.

Children "get it", and a parent who trashes or bad-mouths the non-custodial parent always loses in the end.

No matter how much you loathe the "other person", you should NEVER EVER write anything down and should always remain civil whenever there's appossibility the other person might be recording you.

It's painful, but in Baldwin's case, there would come a time very soon, that the daughter would have been old enough to insist on more time with him, and Kim would have had a miserable child if she refused..

He jumped the shark on this one..

That said, I can understand his frustration, but I don't see how this bell can be un-rung..

I feel for the kid..

[pnwmom]

You're right. In two or three years the judge will let Ireland decide

how much contact she wants with either of her parents.

Raging at her now won't make her more likely to want to be with him.

[pnwmom]

186. delete (dupe)

[B Calm]

189. As far as I'm concerned, this whole incident is a private family matter!

[cooolandrew]

190. Whoa just heard that call on you tube, that was all a little unnnecessary...

... the way Alec was going on you'd of thought she had launched an illegal war on a forien nation. Vastly uncalled for anger towards his kid as far as I can see.

[cgrindley]

192. Basinger is the villain in this

until the tender years doctrine is utterly struck down for the pointless, irrational evil that it is, what is happening to Baldwin and what happens to a huge majority of men in divorce cases will continue to happen. My heart goes out to him and I can only hope that Basinger pays the price.

[B Calm]

193. I have the same feeling.. Women can be nasty in divorce and turn

the kids against their father!

[winston61]

197. Just another example of when self obsessed

loons collide with each other and breed. Not to worry though. The day will come when both of these losers will ask themselves why the children hate their guts. They will still be too self involved to understand that THEY are the reason. As ye sew, so shall ye reap.

[nini]

199. I agree 1000%

I think Baldwin isn't perfect either but he is a victim of parental alienation here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

206. Oh, for fucks sake.

I can't believe anybody fell for this shit.

It was a typical child-parent chewing out of the "this time you really fucked-up" variety.

The only reason it's news is because it's a celebrity, and it got recorded. Anybody interested or "outraged" by it ought to be ashamed of themselves for sticking their nose in other people's business.

[Ganja Ninja]

207. Parents are human beings just like everyone else.

Some times they say and do stupid things. I'm sure he regrets what he did but it's not up to me or you to forgive him. It's up to his daughter. Certainly Kim Basinger is no angel in all of this and probably has a lot to do with bringing out the worst in Mr Baldwin. If her only concern were for the sake of her daughter she would be trying to foster a relationship between her ex and his daughter. By releasing the voice mail to the public she proved she is more intent on embarrassing her ex then maintaining the ties between her daughter and her father. Unfortunately it's all too common in a bitter divorce that the child becomes tool to get back at the ex spouse.