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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 11:58 AM
Original message
The "middle" class, and poverty
If a middle class exists, then by definition a lower class must exist, correct?

How do you solve the problem? You would have to get rid of the lower class by having everyone in that class have an actual middle class lifestyle, and not just in name only. However, we see the demands of the middle class, and they never stop growing, since the wants of the upper class also never stop increasing.

So now you have two classes, each with increasing standards, each using more resources. As everyone has as much right to that increasing good life as anyone else, whatever amount of the other 6.2 billion people on the planet, and however many we keep adding to that total, will also be requiring an ever increasing standard of living.

Now you could get rid of concentrations of wealth, although not sure how. It either hasn't worked in the past, made the situation worse, or worked for a short time only to see the concentration process happen again and again.

Even the basic standard(basic health, basic education, basic this and that) increases as we go. So in the end, how does everyone get everything?
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Very good question. We have to look at the big picture first. The rate of
growth we are currently enjoying, made possible by cheap oil, is unsustainable in many ways. We cannot keep going like this as we are killing ourselves. Our air, land and waterways are becoming polluted beyond repair. The next question is to ask is capitalism the best way to operate our system. It is not as it creates joblessness and corruption by its very core nature. So, we have to find a better way of operating.

Also, every animal in the world has a home. Every person should have a home. We should not have private land ownership unless everyone can have a piece of it. We did not ask to be born but now have to become slaves to the corporate masters just to survive. This should not be the case.
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Crandor Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. "The next question is to ask is capitalism the best way to operate our system"
Well, so far that's only been tried and failed in Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Cambodia, China, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Mongolia, North Korea, Poland, Romania, Russia, Tajikstan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, and Yugoslavia. Time to give it another chance, right?

Also, every animal in the world has a home. Every person should have a home.

The only kinds of animals that have a home are pets, unless you're just defining a home as "where one lives", in which case every person already has a home.

We did not ask to be born but now have to become slaves to the corporate masters just to survive. This should not be the case.

Survival requires food and water, and what would be considered a decent standard of living requires much more. These things do not appear out of nowhere, they must be produced through work, which most people will not do unless the system requires it.
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. A better world is possible

TRUECOST ECONOMICS MANIFESTO
We, the undersigned, make this accusation: that
you, the teachers of neoclassical economics and
the students that you graduate, have perpetuated a
gigantic fraud upon the world.
You claim to work in a pure science of formula and law, but
yours is a social science, with all the fragility and uncertainty
that this entails. We accuse you of pretending to be what you
are not.
You hide in your offices, protected by your jargon, while in the
real world forests vanish, species perish, human lives are ruined
and lost. We accuse you of gross negligence in the management
of our planetary household.
You have known since its inception that your measure of
economic progress, the Gross Domestic Product, is fundamentally
flawed and incomplete, and yet you have allowed it to become
a global standard, reported day by day in every form of media.
We accuse you of recklessly supporting the illusion of progress
at the expense of human and environmental health.
You have done great harm, but your time is coming to its
close. The revolution of economics has begun, as hopeful and
determined as any in our history. We will have our clash of
paradigms, we will have our moment of truth, and out of each
will come a new economics – open, holistic, human scale.
On campus after campus, we will chase you old goats out of
power. Then, in the months and years that follow, we will begin
the work of reprogramming the doomsday machine.
Sign the manifesto at
TruecostEconomics.Org

A Bill of Rights for Future Generations
adbusers.org



We, the people of the future, like the twenty thousand generations who came before us, have the right to breathe air that smells sweet, to drink water that runs pure and free, to swim in waters that teem with life, and to grow our food in rich, living earth.

We have the right to inherit a world unsullied by toxic chemicals, nuclear waste, or genetic pollution. We have the right to walk in untamed nature and to feel the awe that comes when we suddenly lock eyes with a wild beast.

We beseech you, the people of today: do not leave your dirty messes for us to clean up; do not take technological risks, however small, that may backfire catastrophically in times to come. Just as we respectfully ask that you not burden us with your deferred debts and depleted pension plans, we also claim our right to a share of the planet’s ecological wealth. Please don’t use it all up.

We, in turn, promise to do the same. We grant these same rights and privileges to the generations who will live after us; we do so in the sacred hope that the human spirit will live forever.

A curse on any generation who ignores this plea.
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Read this. This is the system that is flawed and is harming us and the world:
Military Keynesianism:
Found at informationclearinghouse.com

The ongoing U.S. militarization of its foreign affairs has spiked precipitously in recent years, with increasingly expensive commitments in Afghanistan and Iraq. These commitments grew from many specific political factors, including the ideological predilections of the current regime, the growing need for material access to the oil-rich regions of the Middle East, and a long-term bipartisan emphasis on hegemony as a basis for national security. The domestic economic basis for these commitments, however, is consistently overlooked. Indeed, America’s hegemonic policy is in many ways most accurately understood as the inevitable result of its decades-long policy of military Keynesianism.

During the Depression that preceded World War II, the English economist John Maynard Keynes, a liberal capitalist, proposed a form of governance that would mitigate the boom-and-bust cycles inherent in capitalist economies. To prevent the economy from contracting, a development typically accompanied by social unrest, Keynes thought the government should take on debt in order to put people back to work. Some of these deficit-financed government jobs might be socially useful, but Keynes was not averse to creating make-work tasks if necessary. During periods of prosperity, the government would cut spending and rebuild the treasury. Such countercyclical planning was called “pump-priming.”

Upon taking office in 1933, U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt, with the assistance of Congress, put several Keynesian measures into effect, including socialized retirement plans, minimum wages for all workers, and government-financed jobs on massive projects, including the Triborough Bridge in New York City, the Grand Coulee Dam in Washington, and the Tennessee Valley Authority, a flood-control and electric-power-¬generation complex covering seven states. Conservative capitalists feared that this degree of government intervention would delegitimate capitalism – which they understood as an economic system of quasi-natural laws – and shift the balance of power from the capitalist class to the working class and its unions. For these reasons, establishment figures tried to hold back countercyclical spending.

The onset of World War II, however, made possible a significantly modified form of state socialism. The exiled Polish economist Michal Kalecki attributed Germany’s success in overcoming the global Depression to a phenomenon that has come to be known as “military Keynesianism.” Government spending on arms increased manufacturing and also had a multiplier effect on general consumer spending by raising worker incomes. Both of these points are in accordance with general Keynesian doctrine. In addition, the enlargement of standing armies absorbed many workers, often young males with few skills and less education. The military thus becomes an employer of last resort, like Roosevelt’s Civilian Conservation Corps, but on a much larger scale.

Rather than make bridges and dams, however, workers would make bullets, tanks, and fighter planes. This made all the difference. Although Adolf Hitler did not undertake rearmament for purely economic reasons, the fact that he advocated governmental support for arms production made him acceptable not only to the German industrialists, who might otherwise have opposed his destabilizing expansionist policies, but also to many around the world who celebrated his achievement of a “German economic miracle.”

In the United States, Keynesian policies continued to benefit workers, but, as in Germany, they also increasingly benefited wealthy manu¬facturers and other capitalists. By the end of the war, the United States had seen a massive shift. Dwight Eisenhower, who helped win that war and later became president, described this shift in his 1961 presidential farewell address:

Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women ate directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – ¬economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

Eisenhower went on to suggest that such an arrangement, which he called the “military¬-industrial complex,” could be perilous to American ideals. The short-term economic benefits were clear, but the very nature of those benefits – which were all too carefully distributed among workers and owners in “every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government” – tended to short-¬circuit Keynes’s insistence that government spending be cut back in good times. The prosperity of the United States came in¬creasingly to depend upon the construction and continual maintenance of a vast war machine, and so military supremacy and economic security became increasingly intertwined in the minds of voters. No one wanted to turn off the pump.

Between 1940 and 1996, for instance, the United States spent nearly $4.5 trillion on the development, testing, and construction of nuclear weapons alone. By 1967, the peak year of its nuclear stockpile, the United States possessed some 32,000 deliverable bombs. None of them was ever used, which illustrates perfectly Keynes’s observation that, in order to create jobs, the government might as well decide to bury money in old mines and “leave them to private enterprise on the well-tried principles of laissez faire to dig them up again.” Nuclear bombs were not just America’s secret weapon; they were also a secret economic weapon.

Such spending helped create economic growth that lasted until the 1973 oil crisis. In the 1980s, President Ronald Reagan once again brought the tools of military Keynesianism to bear, with a policy of significant tax cuts and massive deficit spending on military projects, allegedly to combat a new threat from Communism. Reagan’s military expenditures accounted for 5.9 percent of the gross domestic product in 1984, which in turn fueled a 7 percent growth rate for the economy as a whole and helped reelect Reagan by a landslide.

During the Clinton years military spending fell to about 3 percent of GDP, but the economy rallied strongly in Clinton’s second term due to the boom in information technologies, weakness in the previously competitive Japanese economy, and¬ – paradoxically – serious efforts to reduce the national debt.(3) With the coming to power of George W. Bush, however, military Keynesianism returned once again. Indeed, after he began his war with Iraq, the once-erratic relationship between defense spending and economic growth became nearly parallel. A spike in defense spending in one quarter would see a spike in GDP, and a drop in defense spending would likewise see a drop in GDP.

To understand the real weight of military Keynesianism in the American economy today, however, one must approach official defense statistics with great care. The “defense” budget of the United States – that is, the reported budget of the Department of Defense – does not include: the Department of Energy’s spend¬ing on nuclear weapons ($16.4 billion slated for fiscal 2006), the Department of Homeland Security’s outlays for the actual “defense” of the United States ($41 billion), or the Depart¬ment of Veterans Affairs’ responsibilities for the lifetime care of the seriously wounded ($68 billion). Nor does it include the billions of dol¬lars the Department of State spends each year to finance foreign arms sales and militarily re¬lated development or the Treasury Depart¬ment’s payments of pensions to military re¬tirees and widows and their families (an amount not fully disclosed by official statistics). Still to be added are interest payments by the Treasury to cover past debt-financed defense outlays. The economist Robert Higgs estimates that in 2002 such interest payments amounted to $138.7 billion.

Even when all these things are included, Enron-style accounting makes it hard to obtain an accurate understanding of U.S. dependency on military spending. In 2005, the Government Accountability Office reported to Congress that “neither DOD nor Congress can reliably know how much the war is costing” or “details on how the appropriated funds are being spent.” Indeed, the GAO found that, lacking a reliable method for tracking military costs, the Army had taken to simply inserting into its accounts figures that matched the available budget. Such actions seem absurd in terms of military logic. But they are perfectly logical responses to the require¬ments of military Keynesianism, which places its emphasis not on the demand for defense but rather on the available supply of money.

The Unitary Presidency

Military Keynesianism may be economic de¬velopment by other means, but it does very often lead to real war, or, if not real war, then a signif¬icantly warlike political environment. This creates a feedback loop: American presidents know that military Keynesianism tends to concentrate pow¬er in the executive branch, and so presidents who seek greater power have a natural inducement to encourage further growth of the military-industrial complex. As the phenomena feed on each other, the usual outcome is a real war, based not on the needs of national defense but rather on the do¬mestic political logic of military Keynesianism. As U.S. Senator Robert La Follette Sr. observed, “In times of peace, the war party insists on mak¬ing preparation for war. As soon as prepared for war, it insists on making war.”

George W. Bush has taken this natural polit¬ical phenomenon to an extreme never before ex¬perienced by the American electorate. Every president has sought greater authority, but Bush – ¬whose father lost his position as forty-first presi¬dent in a fair and open election – appears to believe that increasing presidential authority is both a birthright and a central component of his his¬torical legacy. He is supported in this belief by his vice president and chief adviser, Dick Cheney.

In pursuit of more power, Bush and Cheney have unilaterally authorized preventive war against nations they designate as needing “regime change,” directed American soldiers to torture persons they have seized and imprisoned in var¬ious countries, ordered the National Security Agency to carry out illegal “data mining” sur¬veillance of the American people, and done everything they could to prevent Congress from outlawing “cruel, inhumane, or degrading” treat¬ment of people detained by the United States. Each of these actions has been undertaken for specific ideological, tactical, or practical rea¬sons, but also as part of a general campaign of power concentration.

Cheney complained in 2002 that, since he had served as Gerald Ford’s chief of staff, he had seen a significant erosion in executive power as post-Watergate presidents were forced to “cough up and compromise on important principles.” He was referring to such reforms as the War Powers Act of 1973, which requires that the president obtain congressional ap¬proval within ninety days of ordering troops in¬to combat; the Budget and Impoundment Con¬trol Act of 1974, which was designed to stop Nixon from impounding funds for programs he did not like; the Freedom of Information Act of 1966, which Congress strengthened in 1974; President Ford’s Executive Order 11905 of 1976, which outlawed political assassination; and the Intelligence Oversight Act of 1980, which gave more power to the House and Sen¬ate select committees on intelligence. Cheney said that these reforms were “unwise” because they “weaken the presidency and the vice pres¬idency,” and added that he and the president felt an obligation “to pass on our offices in bet¬ter shape than we found them.”

No president, however, has ever acknowledged the legitimacy of the War Powers Act, and most of these so-called limitations on presidential pow¬er had been gutted, ignored, or violated long be¬fore Cheney became vice president. Republican Senator John Sununu of New Hampshire said, “The vice president may be the only person I know of that believes the executive has somehow lost power over the last thirty years.”

Bush and Cheney have made it a primary goal of their terms in office, nonetheless, to carve executive power into the law, and the war has been the primary vehicle for such ac¬tions. John Yoo, Bush’s deputy assistant attor¬ney general from 2001 to 2003, writes in his book War By Other Means, “We are used to a peacetime system in which Congress enacts laws, the President enforces them, and the courts interpret them. In wartime, the gravity shifts to the executive branch.” Bush has claimed that he is “the commander” and “the decider” and that therefore he does not “owe anybody an explanation” for anything.(4)
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. One of your assumptions is incorrect.
"Now you could get rid of concentrations of wealth, although not sure how. It either hasn't worked in the past, made the situation worse, or worked for a short time only to see the concentration process happen again and again."

Scandinavian countries have been very successful at doing just what you claim can't be done. True there is some poverty but very little. Very little uber rich too.

here is a link:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/13/business/compete.php
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Fair enough
If everyone can have everything, that's great. Do it on a global scale, and we got it made in the shade.

However, since there is no perfect state to existence, there will have to be some unintended consequences no matter what anyone does.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That is true, there are always unintended consequences
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 01:01 PM by fasttense
But we certainly can do better than the wealth distribution system the US currently has. Taking from the poor and middle class and giving it to the uber rich and corporations is just not a sustainable solution.

But the ultimate solution is to control population growth or move people off the planet.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. The reality that is NEVER admitted to
The American economy can not substain the population. For every "rich" person you have to have 2 or 3 poor ones, quite possibly more, the Reaganites realized this and to save themselves taxes cut social spending and introduced a campaign to criminalize the poor. The real question to ponder is in this society supposedly the worlds greatest what do we do for the poor? The answer for 2 decades has been nothing, they suffer and (more lately) they deserve to suffer, if they don't have the "gumption" to get a job with health insurance or can't afford it then they deserve to die of a simple infection, there are always more to replace them.
The results homeless families, have become the norm our infant mortality rate is higher then some third world countries and no one cares. The social conservatives answer is to build more prisons and then to rent out labor to factory farms ect.
What is to done? The poverty question has got to be put back on the table pure and simple or the gang problems of the early '90's are going to seem small by comparison to what could happen if a growing number of people are disenfranchised.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. add to that equation that every American, regardless of economic status...
...is a burden upon much of the rest of the world, particularly in developing nations. If rich Americans stand at the top of a pyrimid of inequity, the base of that pyrimid is in the third world and it is very wide indeed.
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Parisle Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. There has indeed been a shift
--- When I took Economics in college in the early 70's, the bottom 20% of the population was described as "subsistence level,"..... you know,... just getting by,.. living paycheck to paycheck, etc. Well that has now become the description of the bottom 40% of the population.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Interesting point.
I'm nearing 40 and feel like I have a somewhat privileged existence. Not because my husband and I necessarily make a lot of money, but we've constructed a life in which we don't feel the need to keep up with the Joneses. We have plenty - enought of some things more than enough of others. I don't even know what class we'd be considered to be in, but I do know a sure way to downward mobility would be for us to have an unplanned child. Or even a planned child. It's really an odd state to be in.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Tough questions
Though I would point out that if you want to ensure everyone has equal amounts of everything you also have to assume all people are willing to contribute to society in equal amounts, with the exception of those who are disabled, permenantly or temporarily, children, the elderly etc. We all know that there are those who do not want to contribute to society, for any number of reasons.

I would be more then happy to pay extra taxes to ensure healthcare, public colleges and basic nutritional support for everyone. I think it is a difficult situation that will only be solved when the great minds of our societies sit down and truly make an effort to find new ways to combat poverty.
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Totallybushed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Everyone doesn't.
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 01:14 PM by Totallybushed
Basic economics.

Demands, wants, etc, increase without limit. There is no cost associated with having a want.

However, resources: labor, capital, technology, land, raw materials, ARE limited and cannot be made to meet the unlimited wants of mankind.

So, what is the solution? Hell if I know. However, I would think it would have something to do with limiting the wants, or at least the capacity to satisfy these wants, by the upper classes first, then the middle classes, while distributing resources to the lower classes at least until their basic needs can be met. Does this include bringing them into a middle class life-style? Again, I don't know, but it would be very hard.

However, we should at least meet their basic . Food, clothing, shelter, etc.
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