Cho diagnoised with autism at age 8 according to granddad

[Herman Munster]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=we-are-glad-he-is-dead-by-cho-s-family--&method=full&objectid=18931479&siteid=89520-name_page.html

THE grandad of university mass killer Cho Seung-Hui said last night: "Son of a bitch. He deserved to die.

"It's better not to have such a child in the family." And he dismissed Cho - diagnosed with autism as an eight-year-old - as "a trouble-causer who has destroyed his mother's life". Kim Hyang-Sik, 81, spoke at his home in South Korea after seeing the video Cho made of himself holding a gun to his head.

Student Cho, 23, shot dead 32 at Virginia Tech University before killing himself.

[JI7]

1. wow, could this be why the dad wanted to be where nobody knew him

remember the articles referring to his dad wanting to move here where nobody would know them.

considering the grandfather's disgusting words, could autism be seen as something bad over there ?

[pnwmom]

4. In some countries there is a great deal of shame in having a disability.

More than there is here. I don't know about Korea, specifically.

[Bentcorner]

23. He wasn't diagnosed with it until he came to the states.

[pnwmom]

35. His mutism and his subsequent speech impediment would have been

evident long before.

Whether or not he had had a diagnosis, clearly there was something wrong well before the age of 8.

[pitohui]

7. autism is seen as something bad everywhere

there is no place where being asperger's is considered a positive

[Zynx]

61. Autism and Aspergers are not interchangable at all, especially for social stigma

Classic "oh he has autism" is usually very obvious, and has trouble even functioning at a basic level. They usually won't be successful, and will usually require significant care.

Someone with Aspergers could easily be a highly respected engineer or research doctor or patent lawyer or physcist, and no one would know anything is wrong unless someone told them, they'd just think he was "quiet" or "eccentric" or "absorbed" or "a super nerd."

The level of functioning is really critical as a distinction, both for what the person has, and for how they're viewed.

[HughMoran]

72. thank you

gotta love the bias seen even here on a liberal site - extremely depressing I must say.

[Dorian Gray]

21. I used to teach in Hong Kong

and I dealt with students who I believed had learning disabilities. I suggested to the parents to get the kids tested, and they refused to do so. My girlfriend who was from China said that in their culture it is seen as a family defect to hae admit any disabilities in the family.

I know South Koreans are a different culture, but many of these ideas run throughout the various Asian cultures.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. why didn't you just add this to your LBN thread?

why start another? :shrug:

[Herman Munster]

3. because

the autism is new. First I've heard of it confirmed, although it's been widely speculated he had asperger's syndrome.

[ajh]

6. Even though...

His grandfather may have said that he deserved to die (after the shooting spree he engaged in, I agree), but he may have felt this way about this young man since learning of his disability.

It's clear that obvious signs of a serious mental illness were overlooked, and it's quite a shame.

[EFerrari]

17. Welcome to DU, ajh.

:)

[bigwillq]

94. Hi!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

89. Touche' nt

[NNN0LHI]

27. Some DUers don't go to the LBN board

I appreciate the poster letting me know about this.

Don

[Madspirit]

5. Aspergers

It would be Aspergers actually. That is high functioning austism. By definition if an autistic child is high functioning enough to make it in regular school, it's called Asperger's Syndrome.

His family is disgusting. "How to Raise a Killer" by Cho's Family.
Lee

[Canuckistanian]

25. My autisitc son is in regular school, and he's definitely not Aspergers

Just goes to show you that autism can manifest itself in many, many ways.

[PA Democrat]

33. One of the differences between a high functioning person with autism and a person with Asperger's is

their developmental history with respect to language development. People with Asperger's develop language in childhood within "normal" time frames, although their use of expressive language is generally unusual. People with autism had significant delays in their language development.

A high functioning person with autism can look very much like a person with Asperger's later in childhood and adulthood because both have IQs within the normal range.

[Canuckistanian]

39. My son is quite social

Although awkwardly so. And his speech skills are still delayed. And he does not display any excessively obsessive interests.

Yet, he's diagnosed with high-functioning autism spectrum.

The psychiatrist said he was hard to define.

[PA Democrat]

69. My daughter is also on the autism spectrum

Autism presents so differently in different people, and even over the course of a single person's lifetime, you can see big changes. My daughter was nonverbal at age three. She is so different now. I love hearing the stories she tells me about things that happen at school. She probably tells me WAY more than a typical teenager would, but it's almost like she's making up for lost time.

[tavalon]

91. Many are

Mine was diagnosed with PDD-NOS for years because he will make eye contact and doesn't flinch away from human contact - sometimes.

[Zynx]

53. Aspergers actually tends to have IQ's well above normal range, just with major social issues

In fact, Aspergers individuals actually *can* do stuff like you see in "Rainman", and even some things that blow that away. Photographic memory, databank memory, theoretical physics on the back of a napkin, etc.

The idiot savant is extremely rare and is mostly a fantasy, but Aspergers are very far from the "idiot" part of that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Yes you are right

This is really bordering on the ridiculous anyway. The grandfather says he was autistic so we take his word for it?

Some of these threads are just mind blowers :banghead:

[MN ChimpH8R]

81. There's a disctinction to be drawn between

high functioning autism and Asperger's. HFA is marked by a delay in normal language development that is not present in Asperger kids. It's more of a diagnostic issue than a prognosis.

By college age, I don't think that there's much of a functional difference if the person is of normal or high IQ. The older you get the more it becomes a distinction without much difference.

FWIW, I am DXd Asperger and would bet the proverbial farm that Cho was somewhere on the spectrum, either HFA or severe Asperger. The silence is a dead giveaway. Asperger's or HFA makes for a difficult time socially and a lot of rejection and social abuse. That, combined with paranoiac tendencies and major depression is a recipe for just what happened. Eventually all of the problems and pathologies hit the boiling point and some people blow.

And yes, a lot of us Aspies are pretty bright:-). Wittgenstein, Einstein and Glenn Gould were almost certainly Aspergers, and I read somewhere that Stephen Spielberg is one of us. Even li'l ole me was determined to be "gifted" as a child. Got me accelerated two years in school, which was disastrous. The weird thing is that I've learned that giftedness and Asperger often go together, reinforce each other (especiall regarding the hyper-focused interests) and, most curiously, mask each other.

On the cultural end, a friend of mine lived in Korea for more than ten years, and he once told me that the concepts of shame and saving face are pretty much the same as they are in China, Japan and other cultures where Confucianism was highly influential.

[Eric J in MN]

96. Why are you calling the Seung-Hui family "disgusting"? NT

NT

[Leopolds Ghost]

99. Because they are saying a mentally ill person, seed of their loins, "deserved to die"

His actions were clearly within the realm of behavior for someone with
Autism-style mental illness -- who is incapable of socializing and may
not grasp the concept of people outside himself having personalities
distinct from his.

It is not the same as a sociopath -- the sociopath is rational, deceptive, obsessive-compulsive, and understands how the minds of others work *in detail* and is generally speaking, a good actor who is completely, entirely selfish and narcissistic. He is completely devoid of empathy. There are many, many undiagnosed, not-quite-murderous sociopaths wandering around.

An autistic person, or a person suffering from psychopathic schizophrenia, has obvious symptoms, like silence or antisocial or erratic behavior. He or she may hear voices and not be able to distinguish between his own thoughts and the thoughts of others; because they don't quite grasp how other peoples' minds work (their own mind being handicapped). In short, they are capable of empathy and other normal human emotion, but it does not come naturally because they are trapped in their head. They must be trained (which genrally means training themselves) to socialize and empathize with others. This is training that comes naturally to a normal human child.

You may not have a clue about what this means, but ask someone who deals with autistic.

[Horse with no Name]

8. The Mirror?

:eyes:
WOW, Drudge AND the Mirror. All in one night. Imagine that.
What a repertoire of sources you possess.

[geardaddy]

55. Exactly, Horse.

Consider the source of this. The Mirror? Come on.

[geardaddy]

57. Deleted Buggy Dupe

[Beausoir]

9. God. That might explain a few things. Jesus. How harsh and cruel can you get?

[Eurobabe]

10. I called this one when I heard about the lack of speaking

lack of eye contact, agitation, lack of social interaction. Take a look at how small his ears are in the photos, another autism marker.

I am not surprised by this announcement.

[jazzjunkysue]

15. His vocalisations on the video weren't normal, for a 23 year old.

And I don't mean because of the second language issue. I have alot of Korean students, and I know the accent. I could hear that he was developmentally delayed in language. Makes sense.

[Corgigal]

16. I believe he has central auditory processing disorder

and he was probably born that way. My 15 year old son has this disorder and he doesn't sound as bad but he's had therapy since he was 4 years old. We always accepted the diagnosis and as a family we worked with him.

[hang a left]

75. My youngest has auditory processing disorder

was identified at 6 years old. Is almost 13 now and doing well. But still I can tell even though almost everyone else doesn't see it.

I often wonder if I have the disorder.

[slj0101]

40. In terms of his accent, his English was quite fluent.

It was his inflection that seemed odd.

[peacetheonlyway]

11. wow...

looks like we finally unraveled who abused the boy.

wonder if this was his emotional abuser and his sexual abuser.

either way, it is sad someone could hate their own blood like that rather
than try to get psychiatric help or send to a tough love bootcamp of sorts.

chock it up to cultural willingness to ignore the white elephant in the room.

it only took one person to go the distance for this tragic / haunted boy but
it sounds like Cho came in contact with thousands of people too self-focused and indifferent to actually take the time to help this kid.

the result of thousands of people neglecting this poor tormented soul was the death of 33 innocent people.

like michael jackson says time to look at the 'man in the mirror'

[Pachamama]

14. As soon as I read what his Grandfather said, I immediately had the same thought that this must be

Cho's abuser....And if he's not, he certainly is a cold and heartless man. It's one thing to be distraught and upset about the heinous actions of a family member, and even condemn those actions and regret and apologize for those things, perhaps feel shame, but to actually say such a thing about a man who was clearly damaged and needed help?

Wow....looks like there are some serious serious dark issues in this family....wonder if Grand-daddy dearest abused his son and grandson and thus the move from South Korea....makes one wonder...

[hang a left]

77. I have the suspicion that he was sexually abused.

His inclusion of that type of assault was in his writings.

The perpetrator could have been the father or the grandfather.

Very interesting that you identified his grandfather as the perp.

He came to the states at 5 if I remember from everything that I have read. According to this periodical, they contacted the grandparents. I don't put it past these types of print magazines. What an odd thing for the biological grandfather to say. He is either consumed with guilt, shame, or both. As well as being far removed from rational thought with respect to this young man's plight.

I don't think we are ever going to know. Chemical imbalance + sexual and emotional abuse + cultural and social abuse. The poor kid retreated into himself and his pathological thinking. He finally snapped. It is a tragedy for everyone.

[peacetheonlyway]

92. i like you hang a left

it's like you get it.

why hasn't a single article or news organization addressed this angle?

it's the sex abuse white elephant that everyone leaves alone cause it touches too many people in a very personal way.

while a child once birthed is a self-willed independent owner of their own actions, as you point out, there can be a combination of bad genes (family), bad culture (ignorant anti-foreign rural school like VA tech), religious environment of ignorance for people different and other forms of social abuse.

to put all the focus on one bad apple is ignoring the system that created the bad apple.

I for one wish I had known the boy and befriended him to prevent this awful tragedy.

i am now looking for troubled people in my social circle to intervene in a tough love sort of way.

[Leopolds Ghost]

102. However, VT is not an "ignorant anti-foreign rural school"

Like most college towns in Virginia, it's apparently a pretty liberal
place and has a huge number of Asian students from Northern Virginia,
despite the fact that they are called "Hokies".

I don't know about VMI (Virginia Military Institute), however...

[Leopolds Ghost]

100. Are they RWers?

Cho's Sister wants to go work as a contractor in Iraq.

Many Asians / Middle Easterners moved to Northern Virginia
because of the ties between hard-liners in the cold war,
and the Pentagon.

Certainly there are plenty of liberal Koreans.

But there is a hard RW core of political expats of
various nationalities that doesn't quite believe in the
whole "permissiveness" of a society that would try to
understand a sick individual such as Cho Seung-Hui.

They moved to the East coast suburbs because they were
allies of this or that Republican administration,
to escape leftist regimes. Like the Miami Cubans.
Like most Republicans, the "political" expats believe
strongly in capitalism, and associate capitalism with freedom.
Not wishy-washy stuff like mental health.

And the Evangelicals from West Africa and Central America
who are converts to very fundamentalist beliefs...

Fortunately, their kids are much more liberal in outlook
than their parents generation. And there are many liberal
Koreans and other immigrants who reflect the fact that many
countries are, on average, more liberal than the US in many
respects.

But the people with resources to do so tend to
immigrate first, and they are more conservative.

[orleans]

12. randi rhodes speculates he was sexually molested/abused

and no one is talking about this--and when are we going to start talking about this.

i think she's drawing this from the fact that he felt so powerless and had to wield power over others coupled with the fact of what he was writing in his playwriting class.

[silverojo]

13. I thought all along he was sexually abused

Stalking? Writing about teachers anally raping students? Claiming to look into a girl's eyes and seeing "promiscuity"? All this, plus the desire to gain power and control over others...it clearly points to a sexually-abused boy who felt powerless, and who hated all authorities as a result.

And that's not even counting his family treating him as a defective, just because he was autistic (at least, according to his grandfather). The rest of his family is "classy", too--the parents have yet to issue a statement to send their condolences to the victims' families. (I know they're in the hospital, but lots of newsworthy people in the hospital--with far worse injuries than "shock"--manage to invite the press into their rooms, so they can speak.)

Given Cho's background, I'm amazed he was able to hold out till the age of 23 before he exploded. One truly sick situation....

[malaise]

18. Sick and sad n/t

[hang a left]

78. Just speaking to his parents being in the hospital....

and probably sedated.

It's not only that their son committed such a horrific crime. He killed himself afterwards. Tese people have several griefs that they are dealing with. Being a mother, if my child had committed suicide and was gone, I would have to be in a hospital and sedated myself. I would assume that it was ALL my fault. Couple that with bearing that guilt times 32 and an international news story, you cannot blame them for not saying anything yet. THeir lives amongst the many others have also been destroyed.

His sister did issue a statement today and it was very apologetic. Even though she works for the State Department as a private contractor for American business. :tinfoilhat:

[WiseButAngrySara]

49. This was so apparent after forcing myself to read his plays...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=689090&mesg_id=690348

Edited to add link

[AngryAmish]

106. She should be ashamed of herself

Not every evil person was molested and there is no proof this guy was.

[soothsayer]

19. I guess VT is a 'buy a degree" school? How'd he get so far?

[mmonk]

47. What's that mean?

[Zynx]

51. The odds of an autistic even getting admitted to a top university on merit are....low

Overwhelmingly, they have trouble even passing normal high school classes.

[mmonk]

54. While that may have merit, my autistic son is at NC State

working on one bachelors degree and three associate degrees and is a member of Delta Tai Alpha honor society. He is also DTA's representative to the student council. He also likes people and is well liked. I think with the right determination by parents and proper early intervention, they can actually achieve what was previously considered impossible (especially when we were told in elementary school he wouldn't ever learn or master things).

[Zynx]

59. That's fantastic, but I would have to say he'd be a distinct exception

Such success is pretty unusual, even allowing for the fact that a lot of schools just give up.

[mmonk]

60. To some extent, yes.

But he also has an autistic friend at the same university he knew in high school (though he's not quite as successful in his work). And thanks (I'm proud of him).

[hang a left]

80. I get a feeling that the autism was misdiagnosed.

This was a mentally ill child, suffering from abuse and a chemical disorder of some kind.

[AZBlue]

67. I went there. Let me assure you, it's not.

[hang a left]

79. !!

:WTF:

[minkyboodle]

111. wow

in this thread I have learned that VA Tech is an
"ignorant anti-foreign rural school" and a "buy a degree"
school. People might want to do a bit of research
before making such ridiculous statements, and that's
coming from one who went to school for 2 years at
UVA, so I'm supposed to like to trash Tech's status..
good grief.

[Ganja Ninja]

20. There two things we can take away from this.

1. The kid had a mental illness that wasn't properly diagnosed.

2. He never got the help he needed because his family was both ashamed and unsympathetic and blamed him for his problems.

[Virginia Dare]

43. Good analysis..

getting help for him would be acknowledging there was a problem, something they were probably incapable of doing.

[Odin2005]

22. This matters how? I have an Austism Spectrum Disorder and I function in society normally.

I have Asperger's Syndrome and I'm as far from a mass murderer as you can get.

[NashVegas]

24. And Your Family?

Compared to Cho's, how would they rank?

(This is not an attempt to assign blame in any way, but all you need to do is ask an animal rights activist what happens to a pup that's treated like shit.)

[devilgrrl]

29. Did your parents move to another state to avoid the shame of having a imperfect child?

eom

[aaronbees]

85. What's the relevance of that?

Does autism work the same in everyone? No. Did Cho have other things working socially and in his mind that helped him leap over the edge? Likely.

[jazzjunkysue]

93. Right. Only school professionals know that there is a long spectrum of

"disorders" that are all lumped under autism because they're not the typical learning disabilities like dyslexia or severe deficiencies like mental retardation/downes syndrome.

When people can think and work on grade level or higher, but their social skills aren't abolutely 100% like everyone else's, they get the label of autism. But the range goes from barely noticable only under stress to barely communicative.

Everyone has their social shortcomings. We all have a little autism. Some people are extraordinarily good at reading others and some need to be hit over the head repeatedly, and they're never labeled autistic.

[PA Democrat]

26. This claim appeared within in a story posted on CNN's website, but later in the day the story was

changed to exclude this detail. I belong to an autism list serve and saw both the original story posted on CNN as well as the amended story that had this claim deleted, so something must not have checked out.

[Blue Diadem]

32. Cnn was very cautious yesterday, I heard the interview with the Great Aunt

and immediately after, the CNN lady said that there was no evidence that he was diagnosed with Autism and that Autistic people aren't known to become murderers.

[mmonk]

58. Yep.

More likely to be on the receiving end of violence as a child depending on severity and the cruelty of kids.

[SmokingJacket]

28. Not a lot of love there.

Explains a lot.

[Blue Diadem]

30. The family sounds messed up,

While I realize they're angry and may say things like calling him an idiot, son of a bitch., etc., I can't help but wonder if they were that nasty to him as a tiny child.

There's a part of me that feels very sorry for the boy that Cho once was. That in no way excuses what he did..but geesh..it sure sounds like his childhood was pretty lousy and that he never received the medical attention for his issues.

Here's a link to another article about the family comments from Korea.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usguns/Story/0,,2061278,00.html

[Feron]

31. I guess I should brace myself for another wave of ...

autism hate as if April weren't bad enough with people telling me that I'm better off dead in the name of "awareness".

Personally I don't think Cho seems autistic at all. Just because he is a loner or may seem off does not mean that he has autism.

And even if he is autistic, that has no role in the shootings. But I've already seen one curebie group issue a statement essentially saying that if you don't do any intervention that the autistic person might be a killer as well. Which of course is ridiculous since I didn't have any intervention and feel bad when I kill an insect.

But then again my family is normal.

I do think after reading his play that Cho had been molested. That anger stems from somewhere.

[coffeenap]

34. Stay strong, Feron. You are not misunderstood here!

:hug:

[Bluerthanblue]

66. I agree, I don't think the autism dx is credible- and I'll

be glad to say good bye to april myself-

:hug:

Reading the articles from the family back in Korea, it sounds like there was alot of familial anger, and little tolerance for individualism.

peace,
blu

[MN ChimpH8R]

84. I respectfully disagree

but the issue is that it isn't any one thing that made Cho what he was. Combine a spectrum disorder, which leads to being the recipient of enormous amounts of social abuse (elieve me, I know), which leads to enormous amounts of frustration and most likely self-loathing and depression and add an organic predisposition towards paranoid schizophrenia and you have this guy in a nutshell.

And to address another point, HFAs and Aspies usually have at least normal IQs and often very high ones. We just don't have any social intuition or ability to read meta-language. We're STNG's Data.

[demnan]

36. That is a harsh statement from the Grandfather

There was a sister somewhere, wasn't there? Didn't Cho's sister go to Princeton? I wonder what her take on all this is.

I think someone wondered if VT was a good school or not. I didn't attend but it's a Virginia state school, and those are generally good. Top Notch would be William and Mary and University of Virginia, second tier would be VT, George Mason and Mary Washington University, where I attended.

[ecstatic]

37. Why is he concerned about a "b*tch's" life being ruined?

"Son of a bitch. He deserved to die... a trouble-causer who has destroyed his mother's life".

Umm... that would make Cho's mother a b#### correct? :shrug:

[Virginia Dare]

41. Extremely disturbing..

I wouldn't even be that harsh in my judgement of him. No compassion whatsoever there. Gives you an incite into the young man's rage and instability.

[WinkyDink]

42. IF true, I'd like to hear from the Va. T.'s Admissions Dept, as far as how the school planned to

accommodate Cho.

[Rosemary2205]

44. Blame it on Autism?? Fucking retards............

AUTISM turned the guy into a killer?? Yeah right. Abused by his parents, maybe may have had something to do with it but this crap about Autistic people being violent is assinine.

[gasperc]

56. he suffered mental abuse

whatever problems he had were clearly made 1000 times worse by family that never took the time or effort to understand what he was going through.

[Rosemary2205]

62. Exactly. It didn't have DIDLEY to do with autism.

That's just pure deliberate stupidity on their part and SHAME on the media for even passing it along - spreading anything even remotely close to an idea that autism persons are dangerous and should be institutionalized.

I hate that.

[woo me with science]

98. You don't know this. nt

[rucky]

74. retards? n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

101. There are as many violent people with autism as anyone else.

It's all about the circmstances. Raise someone wrong if they have a mental illness that makes it difficult for them to understand what other people are thinking, and you create a ticking time bomb who doesn't have a grasp of the value of human life.

[earth mom]

45. People that kill like that are SOCIOPATHS.

Maybe he also had Aspergers along with his Sociopathic tendencies, but no way in hell did he "JUST" have high functioning Autism and do all that he did.

[Leopolds Ghost]

104. a sociopath is the Opposite of schizophrenia.

A schizophrenic (or an autistic) has an altered state of perception that
makes it difficult for them to understand other people or grasp how or
what they are thinking. In extreme cases, they may confuse their own
thoughts or voices in their head with the world around them.

Rough diagnosis, not completely accurate mind you.

A SOCIOPATH knows exactly what those around them are thinking, he just
doesn't care. They are incapable of empathy. Not because they don't
understand what other people are thinking, they simply don't care.

Cho was completely disconnected from reality, and didn't seem to grasp how
other people perceived him or put up any kind of front. I don't think he
was a sociopath. Just an incredibly angry person with an untreated mental disorder.

[WI_DEM]

46. I don't condone his actions but it seems like this kid felt absolutely no love in his life.

[Nutmegger]

48. There were other factors at play here.

He was severely mentally ill. How he got that way, no one will know for sure. I think people are reading too much into his "plays" and such. The guy was mentally ill. I'm certainly not going to take what he said at face value. I say that from experience.

[Zynx]

50. If he went to VTech on normal admission, that's probably not accurate

Autistics are generally "low" functioning. That's generally not university material. If he had had special allowances made to him, we would have heard about it by now with how his mental history has been dissected.

Aspergers is the high functioning one, and it does cause quite a bit of social difficulties, but that diagnosis wasn't made at the time Cho was 8 - it's only popped up much more recently as an understood syndrome.

[Bentcorner]

52. I don't think the issue is that he had autism, it's that he had UNTREATED autism.

Big difference. He didn't appear he received the care he needed.

[Rosemary2205]

63. NO

I'm sorry but that is a crock. Untreated autism does not cause people to go shoot up a college. Autism had absolutely nothing to do with it. Period. Autistic people, treated or not, are not a danger to society. That message is absolutely assinine and is incredibly detrimental to the acceptance of autistic people within society. And at a time when autism rates are exploding the fact the media or anyone else spreads the very notion autism turns people into dangerous psychopaths is incredibly irresponsible.

[Bentcorner]

64. Where did I say that untreated autistic people were dangerous psychopaths?

Should it be ignored that his parents failed to get him proper treatment?

[Rosemary2205]

71. Failing to get him proper treatment did not turn him into a killer.

The autism had nothing to do with it at all. Nothing.

Growing up in an abusive home, maybe, but the autism is totally unrelated. Treated or not.

[woo me with science]

97. First of all, we don't know that he was abused,

(edited because I didn't read what you wrote carefully enough. Sorry.)

Maybe he was abused. Maybe he wasn't.

Second, autistic people don't go shooting people up, so, no, it is not fair to say that this is because of his autism. However, you also can't say with certainty that autism had NOTHING to do with it. One feature of autism is the tendency to become obsessed with certain ideas and be unable to let them go, and this guy was certainly obsessed with his own victimhood and guns. Another feature often seen in autism, related to their rigid thinking, is limited coping skills. Many (not ALL) people with autism have difficulty coping with frustration, and many (not ALL) have outbursts. The combination of these two things could have contributed (NOTE I SAID CONTRIBUTED, not CAUSED) to this tragedy.

[Rosemary2205]

110. I understand your point but I disagree.

No we don't know he was abused. So that is an open question. However, the fact that this was so planned out, over a period of time means it was not a frustrated outburst because of limited coping or communications skills.

You point about a preoccupation with certain things is well taken, such as guns. But in 40 years of working with persons on the autism spectrum I have never met one, never, that was preoccupied with killing. Violence is a quickly passing phase born out of frustration and the violence necessary to sustain a planned mass murder is just not present in autism. The man may have been autistic AND something else, but there is no way on this earth I will ever, for one minute, believe autism contributed to sustained violent feelings.

[woo me with science]

113. I agree with you

that it definitely wasn't just autism. The preoccupation thing is still nagging at me just a little bit, but you make an excellent point that this was not a frustrated outburst, with all the planning involved. Thanks.

[Leopolds Ghost]

105. Wait, you're saying untreated abuse leads to violent behavior but untreated autism does not?

Seems like you are obsessed with correcting a stereotype that does not exist.

[Rosemary2205]

109. untreated autism does not EVER turn people into premeditated killers

untreated abuse can, though rarely.

[Bluerthanblue]

65. gee, I wonder how Cho got so messed up-

something is really off with the maternal relatives in this family.
They are changing the story with each interview.

[AZBlue]

68. Let's consider cultural differences before we judge them:

I posted this elsewhere but apparently it needs to be repeated here:

First of all, I'm not of South Korean descent, so if anyone on DU is, please add to what I say here, you obviously know much better than me.

Having said that, I do know in South Korea there is a lot of pressure to behave properly and not shame the family. This is a historic social phenomenon, and in recent years it has lessened some - but many still feel this way and if his grandfather, an older gentleman obviously, stated this, he probably still feels that way. He's angry - and understandably - he just lost a grandson for reasons he can't fathom. Partner that with a social pressure to act according to society's norms at all times and I am not surprise by his response. It adds more sorrow onto an already dreadfully tragic situation.

There's also a strong feeling of nationalism among South Koreans. They know just as much about this story as we do - they've followed it without pause. Yesterday South Korea's Ambassador to the US pledged to fast for 32 days to express his sorrow and regret. President Roh Moo Hyun sent three messages of condolence to the US within the first 24 hours. South Koreans are horrified. As stated in Time, "'It's a notion of collective responsibility,' says Mike Breen, the author of The Koreans. When a Korean does something wonderful, the country rejoices, but when one of its own goes off the rails, like Cho Seung-Hui, there's a collective sense of shame and burden (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1611964,... ). If this is what others are feeling due to a shared nationality, what must family members be feeling?

Just like with mental illness, let's not judge what we don't fully understand or experience ourselves.

Also, I'd like to add that it first appeared on Drudge and now is on the Mirror's site - let's also consider the source(s). Come on!

[Nutmegger]

88. More people need to read your post.

There's too much armchair psychology going on here.

[Raksha]

103. Has Sun Myong Moon made any public statements yet?

Just wondering.

[Ilsa]

70. And it is possible to have schizophrenia on top of autism as well.

Maybe some of the other behavior problems developed as he was getting older. One psychiatrist said his messages did not recognize himself as a person.

[Leopolds Ghost]

107. If he did not recognize himself as a person, that means...

Such a person could be completely selfless -- or completely unhinged when it comes to finding a target for their anger.

[Maat]

73. I read his plays, and suspected that he was sexually abused ..

he wrote the way one who has experienced would (in this retired social worker's humble opinion).

I also witnessed a disturbing phenomena: sometimes I felt that kids who experienced PSYCHOTIC symptoms were misdiagnosed with other disorders. Maybe he was one such kid.

[Crap_in_a_Hat]

76. Well, this'll do for autism/Asperger's sufferers what 9/11 did for Arabs

The other day a kid in my Algebra class said he could see me shooting up a school. Bizarrely, he said it affectionately, sort of a "That , what a joker!" thing. To quote George Carlin, "Why do they always say 'it's always the quiet ones you have to look out for?' Let me ask you this, if you're sitting in a bar and there's a guy in the corner reading a book and sipping his beer and there's a guy at the end of the bar banging a machete on the bar saying, 'I'M GOING TO KILL THE NEXT MOTHERFUCKER WHO WALKS THROUGH THAT DOOR!' which one are you going to be more concerned about?"

[flying_monkeys]

83. Except no one here has said autism caused the psychotic break.

People have suggested that possible autism *coupled with bullying* may have exacerbated the mental illness Cho already suffered from....


The mental illness morphed into psychosis and THAT made Cho kill - - the autism and (possible) resultant bullying may have fed the morphing, but they weren't the cause of the killings.


Most cases of autism involve people who can't speak or look at others easily, so I don't think people fear a rush of autistic people reaching for guns....

[Crap_in_a_Hat]

90. A lot of people fear anything with an unfamiliar, ergo scary name

To the sufficiently ignorant, "autistic" is one of those names. The majority of Americans seem to think multiple-personality disorder and paranoid schizophrenia are interchangeable, so who knows.

[ends_dont_justify]

82. I'd say the grand-dad is the guy who raped him

I seriously think he sounds like he could be credibly interviewed by police. His words reek of guilty.

[silverojo]

86. Especially when he slithers away to avoid more questions

Definitely the act of somebody who has SOMETHING to hide....

[Nutmegger]

87. Ok...?

I know a few Asian families very well. Family image is everything in Asian society so I'm not surprised about his grandfather saying this. To say that he raped him based on the above and these so-called "plays" is unwise in my opinion.

If I had to guess, I'd say the family just didn't understand the behavior of mental illness, among other factors that will never be known, but far be it from me to engage in armchair psychology.

[The Straight Story]

95. He's sounding like Alec Baldwin

;)

[MichiganVote]

108. Yeah, maybe Alec is Autistic :)

[DisAbilityAdvocate]

112. autism didn't kill people.. Cho - an individual that received no help did

I have read that Cho was in deed diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder at eight years of age… but no intervention took place. It wasn’t autism that killed people in Virginia Tech but an individual that had exhibited symptoms of a learning disability at a young age and the people that came in contact with all the years in school did nothing to intervene. Why ..because he was smart, a loner and Korean….. and probably because his own family didn’t accept the diagnosis (this isn’t so unusual is it?)



I think it is wrong to deny that Cho exhibited autism traits... It is not autism that killed people but this individual Cho who never received help or interventions for years..........

This is so important for parents to remember and a lesson for all people who try to deny children services/support or say they are too smart to receive services at all... even though they have a diagnosis. All the years that Cho was in school, all the teachers that had in class didn't see that he had a disability and did nothing speaks volumes to me. It is not so unusual to hear about kids that are smart, shy, lacking social skills that continue to get pushed through the system for a myriad of reasons......schools don't want to provide services, parents don't want to accept the diagnosis, parents don't know their rights under law for interventions, and some parents have issues that compound getting help for their own child...

If we don't accept that Cho was diagnosed with autism and learn from this, we are compounding the problem of getting help for thousands of children now and in the future. While I admit that children on the autism spectrum are not usually violent, keep in mind this young man was someone who never had intervention and who knows what it was like for him to deal with day to day issues..which I am certain most people didn't even know as he didn't share his feels.. How many kids on the autism spectrum have challenges with sharing their feelings?

Remember this individual Cho does not represent Autism - he was diagnosed with it and no one did anything to intervene.



Can you imagine being diagnosed with cancer when you are eight-years old and then no one does anything for years, even though they suspect something is wrong? Then you "suddenly" do things from rage...because you are dying inside and no one did a thing to help.



I am not trying to justify what Cho did as right, what I am saying is that this individual needed help, was diagnosed with autism and lived without any treatment/therapy for years… not able to have friends, social issues, etc. and then people are surprised this individual like this.





By denying the diagnosis now, people will further contribute to other’s not getting the help they so desperately need.



Monica Moshenko, Parent, Advocate

Host – DisAbility News & Views Radio

www.disabilitynewsradio.com



Article “Cho Was Autistic: Family”

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/cho-was-autistic-family/2007/04/21/1176697133222.html