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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:41 PM
Original message
Are You Experienced?
"The modern American family is the smallest and most barren family that has ever existed. …Many have never had the least sense of family. I remember sitting down to Christmas dinner eighteen years ago in a communal house in Portland, Oregon, with about twelve others my own age, all of whom had no place they wished to go home to. That house was my first discovery of harmony and community with fellow human beings. This has been the experience of hundreds of thousands of men and women all over America ….Rather than the ‘breakdown of the family,’ we should see this as the transition to a new form of family."
--Gary Snyder; Earth House Hold; 1968.

I’ve quoted from Snyder’s wonderful book, Earth House Hold, several times in previous years on DU. And, while I recognize that this isn’t Christmas, because the book is in large part a commentary on the lessons that tribal societies can teach our modern, high-tech culture, it seems to fit with what I’d like to say this evening. More, what Snyder wrote more than forty years ago is perhaps more important today, than it was then. While it is no more "true" today, than it was yesterday, our society has an increasing need to be exposed to that truth.

A few weeks ago, there were some interesting threads on this forum regarding a possible "men’s issues" forum. I endorsed the proposition, because I think that an open and frank discussion about the rights and responsibilities of both men and women is essential in the quest for social justice. Recently, there has been discussion about possible steps back on women’s health care, as part of the corporate health care deform. Again, this is an issue that should be of interest to every man and woman on this forum. Last night, on the news, I saw a segment where young people described the tensions they endure when they want to go home for the holiday, and bring their Significant Other. We must all recognize that this twisted form of discrimination against family members, based on the person they love, is stark evidence that we live in a society where people continue to suffer from the small-minds and barren consciences of hateful, self-righteous fools.

The "breakdown" of the family is, of course, simply a smaller scale model of the breakdown within our communities, and our society as a whole. Yet we have an opportunity to act upon this, and use the building blocks that others have tossed away to build our own family, our own community, and our own cultural reality.

Other threads on this forum that I have read today indicate that some of this same breakdown is taking place within the Democratic Party. For example, some people are pleased with President Obama, and others are not. Some people urge patience, and others express impatience. Some people believe that progress is being made on health care reform, while others feel betrayed. Some people think that those opposed to the current plan are playing into the hands of republicans; others are convinced that support of the current plan is playing into the hands of corporations. I have no need to attend a family gathering this long weekend to witness a "family feud," I can just read DU:General Discussion.

Last week, my older son posted a couple things on this forum, under "H2O Man." A number of people here encouraged him to continue here – he was thinking of the possibility of becoming "McH2O Man." But, as he explained to me, as interesting as he finds the discussions here, and as friendly as people were to him, he is not entirely comfortable on a forum where he cannot be open and honest about his support of positions and candidates that are to the left of the Democratic Party. In 2008, he worked as a volunteer at the local party headquarters, along with me and other family members. He really does like President Obama, and is convinced that he is sincere about wanting to institute change. But he sees no evidence that the politicians in Congress are willing to go against their corporate masters – unless there is very real pressure from citizens on the local levels.

I understand his position. Oh, yes, I surely do. I understand it for the exact same reasons that I understand why a dozen young adults did not have a home that they wished to return to for the holiday in 1968. Still, I tell him that I think there are advantages to at very least considering this time as providing an opportunity to gather those who are definitely being shunned by the elected officials in Washington, and working with them to re-build within the party. It is possible to re-examine what our role is, and what options are available to use.

Some of us are old enough to remember the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. If you don’t know about it, I strongly suggest that you take some time this weekend, and do some research on it. It was made up of grass roots activists, who got tired of helping those people in the party who either took them for granted, or held them in utter contempt. The MFDP took those discarded people, and re-built their own organization, within the Democratic Party. It was strong enough to gain the attention, and then direct support, of Malcolm X. Some members even advocated having Malcolm run for political office, something he considered interesting. Any time an organized group of democrats takes firm positions like that, be assured that those elected representatives begin to pay attention. It doesn’t mean that they’ll like you, or invite you into their homes for a Thanksgiving feast. But they’ll know that you are serious, and that you won’t settle for complaining, or putting your tail between your legs and slinking away.

Now, when a person talks like this, it is natural that many people will say it can’t be done, that it’s a pipe dream, or that they’ve tried this in the past and it didn’t work. Those are the same responses that I often heard in social work, when dealing with families. "Impossible." " Can’t be done." "Pipe dream." "Tried it already, but it doesn’t work." Again, same dynamics, different scale.

From single families to institutions to the larger society, too many people have allowed greedy, mean-spirited, selfish, cruel people in "authority" to run the show. Good people find themselves in extremely dysfunctional, anti-human systems. At first, they try to rebel. Soon, they find it easier to be quiet, to "try to get along to get along." At some point, they become convinced that even if the system isn’t right, it is too big and powerful, and that they are too small and weak, to make meaningful change. It is then that they begin to cooperate with the very system that is robbing them of their humanity. They believe the Big Lie.

My message tonight is a simple one. If you are satisfied with the current environment in Washington – and I mean among democratic representatives, and in no way implying that anyone here is pro-republican – than that is fine. Keep on working in the same direction that you are. But, if you are not satisfied, please consider the option of gathering together in a "new" form of the Democratic Party family, in the style of that Mississippi Democratic Freedom Party. Help to re-define who are family and friends are, and advocate for our values. Our history provides us with valuable lessons and building plans.

Happy Thanksgiving!
H2O Man
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good to have you around still.
Happy Thanksgiving to you H20 Man.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
35. Thank you.
And happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Though it is a greater honor for you...lol...thank you. Good post..Nice to hear you talking.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Considered it" a long time ago. Our Rugged Individualism gets in the way.
USians have a much harder time coming together and working together than do either Indians or Europeans.

I came to the conclusian that USians aren't hurting enough yet to get past those barriers.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I was just saying to someone, not moments ago...
That I fear the modern American doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to make it through these hard times. Having been mostly raised by my grandmother, one of 15 siblings raised during the Depression, I'm grateful for the time she spent with me and the things I learned from her. From making clothes, to making a meal from whatever might be around, to stretching a dollar until "you can read the Sunday funnies through it."

While some of us will be busy doing what we can and making do with what we have, there will be many, many more who will be whining and waiting for someone else to do all that for them.

We do need to work together if we expect to survive, and I believe as you do... it will have to hurt harder and longer before some people get it.

“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” - Will Rogers
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. It's not about making and being self-sufficient.
In some ways, that is exactly what has gotten us into this mess.

It's about learning INTERDEPENDENCE, which, as you recount, doesn't happen because we don't know how to really work together.

And, for me, that starts with LISTENING. We don't even try to hear each other.

But, try as I might, people all think they already know how to listen, and see no value in working on that skill.

So much for "peace".

It went the way of the DODO.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Someone will cry "socialist" when you start talking about interdependence...
We all have skills, and that's the point I was trying to make. It's going to be a long haul... and those of us who are frugal and can make do are a rare breed with rare skills, I think. If you put a bunch of people together, to have a lot of different skill sets. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's how real progress is made... depending on your partner, neighbor, friends to do what they are good at doing for the whole, while you do your part.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I'm living in my fucking car.
How much more frugal can I be?

Turn into an air plant?

Look, it's very clear that we just aren't thinking in the same way, and I submit that is the PROBLEM.

In the end, it isn't about "skill sets". It's about that thing called "COMPASSION".

yeah, I know... it doesn't count for shit.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. I`m thinking about you, bobbolink.
~PEACE~
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. Ever consider a storage locker?They let you work out of 'em during the day.
I listen to the Rude Guy's podcasts. He talks about living out of his car and how he does it all the time. a true progressive.

www.therudeguy.com

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Only christofascists will cry "socialist" when we talk about interdependence.
Our response should be a very loud "SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP".
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
43. Don't let 'em demonize Socialists. Democratic socialism is the best form of government.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Democratic Socialism=the best of both worlds
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
39. I agree with every word, but would add that during tough
Times the people on the bottom rely more than ever on other people's kindness.

Each holiday season, I remember the horrors of the winter of 2005-2006. While facing the future with a seriously ill spouse, I was pulled over by a cop in Napa County. With all the visits to doctors, pharmacies, etc, I had neglected to renew my driver's license. By law, the policeman should have impounded my car - I had no valid license. This would have stranded me some 40 miles from home, and left me on the shoulder of a road in the middle of a major rain storm.

Instead, after I burst into a lengthy semi-tear filled account of my life, he kindly said, "Well, I guess we both could pretend that a bunch of your friends are following in a car behind yours. So if you could sit here for five minutes and let them catch up to you, flag them down, and then have one of them drive you home, it would be okay with me.

"Just DO NOT drive on for another five minutes. It would be better for me to not have my supervisor notice you drive through town with your broken tail light."

So I sat and waited five minutes for my imaginary friends. And when those imaginary friends caught up with me, one of them drove me home.

I still drive through Napa with prayers under my breath for the compassion of that man.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. That's very touching...
And a great addition. Spot on.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
36. I agree.
It is similar to watching a person who needs to hit bottom, before they are able to make healthy changes. Very often in life, it takes a high degree of suffering, before individuals/groups are willing and able to make significant changes. Before reaching that point, the idea of change seems "too hard," even "impossible." But it is actually far harder to continue on the wrong path, without changing .... just as it is indeed impossible for things to improve will following that same path.

Thank you for your contributions on this thread.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm thankful for you, H20 Man
And for your family for rallying around you in your hour of need, for your son who has obviously inherited a great deal of awesome mental DNA from you, for this OP, and for the idea of fighting for what we believe in... whatever that may be... and the right to do so.

Many blessings upon your house, and a very happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. Welcome back Waterman
I'm giving thanks for people like you.

Happy Thanksgiving. :grouphug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Forces are gathering Waterman
for a third party... I should remind you the conditions today are not unlike those of the 1880s when a more radical form of the MFDP rose, the Granger Halls. And it is not just limited to democrats.

So the wind is gathering strength and a demand for change is now all across the nation. It is just a matter of that force organizing itself into modern-day Granger Halls.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Re: "Can't be done". I Would Submit that it is, Indeed, the Only Way that it Can be Done.
Whatever form it takes, action and organization at local and at broader levels is not only the most effective use of energy, it is probably the only way to enact meaningful change.

Best Holiday Wishes to You, Corey, and all of your friends and family.

:toast:
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Don't look at your brother in anger; just say a prayer for a stranger.
I suppose if one can wish good upon someone who angers, then that same one can live in harmony and community with nearly anyone.

May you feel thankful for the experience of fulfilling needs this Thanksgiving.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. Happy Thanksgiving.
I'm really glad you're back. Corey did well. Take care of yourself. We need you around.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. Very interesting proposition H2O
Definiely something to give thought to.
I know of several growing groups of what I call neo hippie kids(of all ages) coming together because of their disgust with the status quo.It would take some work but I imagine that they could be encouraged to turn back to actually getting involved in mainstream politics.
Google Evolver sometime.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. What a comeback!
I'll look into the Mississippi Democratic Freedom Party, thanks for posting such an eloquent call to (ok not arms) hearts and minds.

Glad you are feeling well enough to be back!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. Your post is a timely one. Our party is on the ropes in defining itself...again.
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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. Beautifully stated. K&R.
Thank you. :thumbsup:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. Hey guy! How's it going?
Glad you're home to spend the holidays with your family. Don't scare us all like that again!

Now I'll go read your post. :)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. I have little sense of family.
I have a mother, 2 sons, and a grandson, and that's all the family I claim or feel any connection to.

Not a surprise, having grown up cut off from any family or sense of community.

Which is beside your point.

Thanks for your valuable insight, and happy Thanksgiving to you, too.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. thank you h20man
where do i sign up? i work 9-10 hours a day and will not be leading this charge. all i have been doing is writing to the president and my reps. they don't seem to be paying attention.

ps - hope you're feeling much much better. great kid you have there too!
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. The "family" parallel is interesting
On the one hand, if the family unit of today is not cohesive, why would we expect an "extended" family (new party) to stick together in today's environment where it's "every person for him/herself"?

On the other, this new party as a "family" might be appealing to those who want to be among people who share common goals & aspirations - especially since the current system seems incapable of serving anybody. But is it be possible to form a new cohesive political in a society where nobody trusts anybody & rancor is more common than saying "hello"?
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Happy Thanksgiving - I'm thankful you feel well enough to visit and post
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. It's so good to have you here, Waterman.
Thanks, KnR, and :grouphug:

Hekate

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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. So good to have you back H2O Man! nt
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. Hi friend!
(no kidding) I happen to be wearing an "are you experienced" t-shirt at the moment.
I love your post!

Happy Thanksgiving!

in gratitude
bill
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. It's good to see you back
I really hope your son will revisit the idea of joining and posting here. He's a talented writer - his style is very similar to yours :)
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
28. Be Well H20Man.....and enjoy this "TG" with your great kids and rest of family.
Our Family of "Man and Womankind" are trying to reconnect. "Mens Issues Forum" sounds good. Mend well, My Friend.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. kick
:bounce:
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
31. K & R
~PEACE~
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
32. Good morning H2O Man. One day you should write and essay on "Stubborn"
:evilgrin:
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
33. I'm thankful for the tip on the Mississippi Freedom Democratic
Party. We need to learn how the socks up process might work. Interest in such things is not limited to DU.
Enjoy the day, dear H20Man.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
34. Glad to see you back and writing again
You put your finger on an issue that I think is very important, and I've been thinking about lately. How do respond when large sections of our Democratic Party appears more interested in satisfying corporate interests than ours? You express a lot of excellent ideas here.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
37. rather than start our own MFDP
it seems like we already have several organizations in that regard which we could join and support, if not a fourth. Starting with the last one, I was part of the AFL-CIO e-activist network until the 2004 election. I could join that even though I am not currently a union member (I was for many years a member of the musicians union, but that was sort of a technicality to get my checks for the local City Band). http://www.aflcio.org/

There's also TrueMajority, http://www.truemajority.org/
which still sends me emails, although I have not sent a fax to my congressperson through it, which used to be their method.

there is moveon http://www.moveon.org/
which I have no experience with, although it seemed the Democratic party was quick to betray them.

and there is Demoncracy for America, for all the Deniacs
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/
through them I donated to Ed Fallon to challenge Leonard Boswell in Iowa, and also to Sherrod Brown to beat the Republican in Ohio. And Dr. Dean has been holding rallies for health care reform.

I might also include PFAW http://site.pfaw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=homepagenew
I gave them some money, through DU, to try and stop the Roberts (or Alito, I forget which) nomination and also took an internet class through them, although for my money they seemed to be too much about abortion, minorities, and GLBT, and while that is the Holy Trinity for much of DU as well, it's not that inspiring for a straight white guy.

So I really don't think we need a 'new' form since there are already many options available, and I did not even include this group
http://www.sierraclub.org/ of which I am a member.

or this magazine, which I subscribe to (the top article might provide some laughs)
http://www.progressive.org/

or this older one, that I recently re-subscribed to
http://www.thenation.com/

Those publications are also presumably trying to move the country to the left.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. All of these
are absolutely groups that I believe liberal & progressive democrats should endorse, support, and work with. Thank you for a valuable contribution.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
40. Happy Thanksgiving
To you, McH20Man, Darren, your very best friend in the world and the girls!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
45. Great post, H20 Man. Thank you for not "watering it down".
Too late to rec, but here's a kick for more exposure.

Happy Thanksgiving to all
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phasma ex machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. +1
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
46. Wow, I am so glad that I found this before calling it a night.
I am thankful that you are feeling better and that you took the time to share with us.

I love to read your words. :hug:

Happy Thanksgiving Day, you just rounded mine out quite nicely. :loveya:

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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
48. "A house divided against itself cannot stand"
That saying is true and I feel long ago that the truth of it became a plan to achieve power.
And it is simple really...you just point out our differences, and soon our differences will divide us into smaller and smaller groups that can be managed.

And that has been going on for years with the democrats and the Republicans love it, and promote it in every way they can.
The republicans of course have the same differences but Democrats are not generally inclined to take the Machiavellian approach to politics so there is little desire for our leadership to do the same.
Besides being a elected democrat that is co-opted can be a real wealth builder, because the right has a lot of money to through around.

Could we please all gather around the table and put aside our differences for the sake of a peaceful and successful meal?
Could we say to our brothers that we love them even though we think there ideas are crazy or their friends are trash, and invite them in?

Together we can do anything, divided we will do little.

Welcome back Mr. Waterman and happy thanksgiving.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
49. Happy Thanksgiving, Brother!
Remembering we ALL are family -- whether through Adam and Eve or Lucy Afarensis or whatever -- is the only way we can really work together in the ways we need to save the planet, ourselves and each other, and the future.

PS: Reforming and rebuilding the Democratic Party are my preferences, but there are more than rumblings in Michigan for splintering and building anew. Frustrated at the inability to enact progress in most any form, I can't blame the young people.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
51. kick
Makes me long for real family.
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