For those complaining about the Health Care Bill--don't worry it probably will be defeated

[WI_DEM]

We all know it's a far from perfect bill. It will be defeated by the GOP and the Lieberman/conservative dem block in the senate. Many progressives don't like the bill but in the end it will be defeated by the right wingers. You have to wonder why it's considered such a sweetheart bill for the insurance industry when it has unanimous GOP opposition and many conservative Dems against it. So no health care bill will pass. Oh but you say "Next year they'll come up with a new bill." But there is no next year. Like Clinton in '93 it's now or it won't be for another 15 or 20 years or longer. Next year the House and the Senate will need to concentrate on jobs--Obama and congressional leaders have already made that clear.

So you say in 2010 when the Dems gain more seats in the house and senate? Wrong again. The In-party loses seats traditionally and I've seen enough polls already for 2010 in key senate seats to indictate that things are not going to be easy for the Dems. Furthermore the GOP will be embolded by this victory and their base will turn out but my guess is that the Dem base will not be as fired up.

So the bill which I admit is far from perfect will in all probability lose and any reforms that it had will be gone and so will the additional coverage for millions of people.

[azmouse]

1. And sadly 45,000 people will die each year for lack of care.

[kctim]

2. 2010

will determine it all.
IF Dems win and pick up seats with progressive candidates, then the people are ready for it.
IF Reps win and pick up seats, the people aren't.

[WI_DEM]

19. don't count on Dems gaining progressive seats

in the senate. Dodd is in trouble. Rudy might win NY senate race. We have a chance in MO but that would be a moderate. In fact, our best chances in the senate are in the south in 2010 and they will not be progressives either.

[kctim]

39. If Dems don't gain

progressive seats, then the people are saying they do not want a govt plan. It doesn't matter if voters think they know what voters in another district 'really' want. It doesn't matter if they think they are voting against their own best interest. It doesn't matter if they believe people did not show up because the bill is/was not single-payer.
All that matters is who shows up to vote and who they elect to represent their views.

2010 will tell where the people stand on a govt plan.

[Cleita]

48. The real problem is we are victims of minority rule.

The 60 vote cloture has to go and the majority votes, even if it's 51 votes become the rule. This is what is ruining California, the two-thirds vote in the legislature. It's enabling the minority Republicans to stop any legislation that the majority want in California. I never realized it until Amy had a UC Berkley professor on her show Democracy Now! explain how it works.

[BeFree]

56. Correct

So how come the R's have so much power?
Why haven't we defeated them?

[Cleita]

79. Because they are very organized with lots of money behind them and they

play dirty. The proven stolen elections of the Bush Presidency are proof of that. Democrats try to play by the rules and argue a lot among themselves because that's the way a democracy works.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Because they need 25% of the legislature in Cali to have that power

no matter how many ways you slice it SOME will be elected... in about that ratio.

And the same is happening in the Senate. I am all for protecting the rights of the minority but this is ridiculous.

Oh and it would create other problems but proportional representation would be a good change in my view.

[kctim]

60. That's just another excuse

that changes nothing about the outcome.

IF a govt plan is as important to the people as everybody says it is, they will show up to the polls and they will know who to vote for in order to get it.

[Cleita]

76. If your choice is between Blue Dog and Republican or just

Republican like in my district, what choice is that?

[kctim]

81. That doesn't change how it works

IF the majority of people in your district want a govt plan, a candidate who agrees will run and they will win. If they do not, then the people in your district do not want a govt plan. Their voice must be heard and respected just as yours must be.
If you do not like your choices, then you can work to change them or you can move.

(One thing I have found to be extremely effective is to help in neighboring districts where it is closer.)

[AllentownJake]

62. 2010 will tell what people think of the President's handling of the economy

If people are happy with the direction things are going, Democrats pick up seats. If they are not, they lose seats.

In 2008 my GOP rep wouldn't even appear at a McCain/Palin rally in my town and touted the times he stood up to President Bush. He won re-election.

If you see people running away from President Obama in 2010, it is because the economy fucking sucks.

[Lorien]

66. This was our Big Chance, and our reps are blowing it

the Dems have a greater advantage than BushCo did, yet unlike Bushco we can't seem to get much meaningful legislation passed. The POTUS must LEAD, not just stand aside and wait for his divided party to make up it's mind.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeFree]

4. If it is defeated

We can blame some progressives who helped defeat reform.
We can call them what they truly are: anti-reformists.

Cheap shot? Hell yes.
Screw them. They have messed us up one time too many.

[AllentownJake]

5. That is the dumbest thing I have read on DU in a while

You want to blame progressives? For what not giving Lieberman more of what he wanted? For not caving more to Blanche Lincoln? If only we gave more ground to the GOP

Here is a newsflash every single progressive Senator is going to vote for this bill and those voting against it, never planned to vote for any bill to begin with.

If only we had more Liebermans, Bayhs, Nelsons, and Lincolns in the Senate...we would really get shit done.

[BeFree]

6. No

I mean like the progressives we see on this board.

Of course the progressives in office support this bill and the reform. Duh!

It's the stupid jerks mouthing off here on DU that will be to blame.

[AllentownJake]

11. Now that is the dumbest thing I have read on DU

Do you honestly think anyone on here has any power whether this bill is passed or not passed.

You want to blame me for not liking this bill because it sacrifices too much to appease a bunch of Republicans who were oppurtunistic and ran as democrats?

Here is the deal, Arlen Specter, voting for the bill. Bob Casey voting for the bill. Charlie Dent is my Republican congressman and I donated money and time to his opponents campaign in 2008 and have already donated items (I'm broke now so I gave them a new printer I wasn't using) and time to his opponent in 2010. I'll probably save some money to pitch him $100.

Yes the people on DU are somehow at fault for Joe Lieberman....many of these same people donated money to Ned Lamont in 2006.

I guess a NY Duer is responsible for Blanche Lincoln and Mark Pryor.

Blaming progressives on DU is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard, like anything any member on DU had to effect this bill one way or another outside of their involvement in the 2008 elections.

:rofl:

[neverforget]

16. +1

[BeFree]

18. Either you are...

..a part of the solution, or a part of the problem.

We are an influence.
People who are against what you say the progressives in office are for, are a problem.
Why you can't understand that is your problem.

Poll the progressives in congress.
Will they vote for the bill, or against?

Now, are we to oppose those who are working for reform?
Or continue the ankle biting?

[AllentownJake]

20. Who the fuck are you George W. Bush

Because honestly I can see that smug asshole saying something equally as dumb.

You aren't an influence, ok? You have no influence on the outcome of any legislation outside of what you may do in an election. You can write your congressman a thousand times a day and you are going to get the same result.

The TARP bill had more phone calls saying don't do this than any other piece of legislation in American History. It still passed.

Do lobbyist have influence on legislation, yes they do and there have been both progressive and not so progressive lobbyist out there but wake up out of your civic class lesson on how things work.

What do you think influenced Mary Landrieu to change her mind on voting to open the bill up for debate, phone calls or the fact that Harry Reid wrote in 100 million dollars of medical relief specifically specified for her state?

We aren't part of the game after the election is over, and honestly you aren't part of the game once the primary is over.

Deal with it.

[BeFree]

30. Eh?

You and George sound pretty much the same.

You have a lot in common.

Both anti-democratic.

Both want to deny the people have any power.

Sucks to be like George, eh? It shows.

[AllentownJake]

32. Keep making those phone calls

I've seen the system up close enough to know that a $2000 check gets a politicians attention faster than 100 phone calls from the voters.

Oh this fails, Our President is responsible. A man I worked very hard to elect. Deal with it.

[BeFree]

34. Well, son

You should run for office then.
See how many votes you get.
See how much support you have.

See what it means to really be responsible.

Sad you have to stoop so low as to equate me with George.
Looks like you lost again. Sad.

[AllentownJake]

38. I don't think I've lost and argument with you yet

but you can declare yourself a winner and go back to what you think the world is.

[BeFree]

50. A winner?

Nah, I'm not a winner, just not a loser loudmouth who crumbles in arguments by resorting to calling others bad names.

[AllentownJake]

52. When you say for us or against us

You are repeating the logic of a man who occupied the White House a year ago. You earned that comparison.

Argue why someone should support something rationally, don't peg them as traitors because they don't see your world view.

[BeFree]

54. Ya know

...if you say we have no influence, then why do you even post here?

[AllentownJake]

57. I have influence twice a year

When I vote in a primary and when I vote in a General Election and when I volunteer for campaigns. When I had money and was working I had influence in I could donate.

The OFA strategy was not a smart one. The President would have been wiser to invest those resources and people in the New Jersey and Virginia elections. This thread would not be here if one of those races would have gone differently.

This board is like debating what is going to happen next on a TV Show. No one has any influence on the writers. The only influence they have is what TV shows stay on TV and what TV shows get cancelled.

[BeFree]

63. Well

I can see why you are so frustrated.
You have no influence.

OTOH I have had lots of influence on many actions.
Actions wherein progress was made.
So I am not frustrated.

I value DU differently than you.
Take no shame from that, it's just value differences.
But one day maybe your values will change?

[AllentownJake]

64. When I want to test my reasoning and my beliefs on what is going on

I go to DU.

When I want to influence the way the world works, I go to a campaign office or not for profit.

I don't see me changing that value system, and I don't think I should.

This is a place to test my belief system and have it challenged, not a place to change how the world works.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

61. Wow you outdid yourself

THIS is the stupidest thing I have read on DU period. It is progressives on DUs fault if the HCR bill doesnt pass???????? Hilarious and sad all at the same time.

I will let you know how I vote on the bill on Saturday.

[BeFree]

65. Eh?

You do know what rhetoric is and the use of it to further discussion?
Maybe you don't? Maybe you don't.

Tell ya what, just call me George Bush and be done.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

70. George Bush?

I just think you are ridiculous as your posts on this thread are a testament to. Sorry, I am busy getting ready for my votes on the Senate floor. I will let you know how I vote.

[Cleita]

9. Agreed.

It's so dumb it belongs at Free Republic.

[AllentownJake]

13. Oh the fucking pep squad is going to be looking for a scape goat

Instead of asking themselves why their God in the White House didn't do more to twist the arms of the people who have been causing problems since June instead of appeasing them.

[Echo In Light]

21. And then some n/t

[Cleita]

10. Yeah, let's not blame all those innocent Blue Dog Democrats and

Republicans. We know they had our best interests at heart and those bad boy progressives upset the gravy train, er compassion train. :sarcasm:

[BeFree]

26. Ouch

The reason why the bluedogs don't vote progressive?
Is it because of the stupid ass progressives or the smart, reasonable progressives?

There stand a great many in opposition to us real progressives.
Some of them are whackos in progressive skins.
They are why there is so little progress being made, and they may defeat this HCR progress.

[AllentownJake]

29. Follow the damn money

I've seen more delusional post from you on how the system works. Have you ever worked in a campaign for anything? Have you ever been to a political fundraiser? Have you ever bothered to search a Representative of yours donations on Open Secrets and looked to see how it may correlate with their positions?

[redqueen]

82. Perspective...

the people you see as smart, reasonable progressives... I would imagine that others see as either sold-out or weak.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

42. Agreed this is the stupidest thing I have read on DU in awhile

Jesus Christ what the fuck has happened to DU.

[AllentownJake]

45. A cult of personality

When you turn a politician into an iconic cultural hero who is the wisest, kindest, most noble person, to ever step foot in the Oval Office before they accomplish anything....you get this result. See the Republican Party from 2001-2009

[BeFree]

58. I dunno

Just the name 'spiritual-gunfighter' is hard to beat.

Point is that if reform fails in this session there will be fingers pointed.
It won't be because the progressive office-holders didn't vote for reform.

[Lorien]

69. Reform of WHAT? We won't get more affordable health care

we'll just have lighter wallets in the end.

[BeFree]

75. Many disagree with you

We shall see what happens.

In the meantime, the wall has been cracked.
We have actual reform underway.
After 50 years, we have some reform.
The battle has really just begun.

[HuckleB]

77. Disagreement is meaningless if the data shows otherwise.

[Cleita]

7. It's already been defeated. The watered down public option won't

do the job of getting real universal health security and it will cost more than private insurance. In waiting until 2014 to put it into effect gives the insurance industry lots of time to blow up the rest of it. If we lose seats in Congress in 2010, the Republicans will finish it off for sure. The additional coverage will probably be unaffordable for the people who need it most if they must get their insurance from the same entities who brought us this crisis to begin with. So the far from perfect bill won't make much difference in the lives of those who must fight the system every day. The good part of the bill, fixing some of the things that are wrong with Medicare doesn't really matter if everyone can't participate in this health care program as far as I'm concerned and I'm a Medicare recipient. That additional coverage for millions of people wouldn't come into effect for four years or more anyway. The final version hasn't come out yet though so maybe there is a small glimmer of hope.

However, I believe we don't have to wait another fifteen or twenty years waiting for our ineffective government to get around to it again. We will never have health care until we drive the insurance industry out of the business and apparently it's going to be up to us the unwashed rabble who get it done it somehow.

[madfloridian]

8. There will be no relief for 4 or 5 years even if it passes.

There may be more restrictive parts on women's rights.

SO...you want to blame those who point out the problems?

[Cleita]

14. Actually, I'm seeing a silver lining. It gives us the opportunity at a state

level to try to push something through before then.

[WI_DEM]

22. There would be parts that would go into effect immediately

regulations and such. But if we don't begin now I don't see a chance to get a better bill for years to come.

[leftstreet]

12. Oh waaah. The Insurance Profit Protection Act might fail

Good

[Cleita]

15. Oh I like your name of the bill.

May I use it? I think we should spread it around the internet if it passes.

[leftstreet]

17. ...

I think I first read it here

It's a great term!

[laughingliberal]

36. It is similar to Wendall Potter's name for the Senate Finance bill and I love it! nt

[WI_DEM]

24. Yep, good.

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. +1

:thumbsup:

[Warpy]

23. If it is, the Democrats will lose Congress

in a repeat of what happened the last time our chickenshit party wimped out on health care in 1994.

Yes, the GOP is obstructionist. No, they don't give a damn about us. However, we're seen as the party in charge, and if our party is too weak to get anything done, people are going to vote for the party that's strong enough to get the wrong things done.

That's just the way things work and Congress needs to wake the hell up and get a whiff of reality.

[WI_DEM]

27. That's right and polls don't look good for us now just think if we couldn't even

deliver a half decent health bill. It could cripple Obama too.

[HughMoran]

28. I can see the faces of many DUers lighting up with glee

Yay! No reform is better than this!! Woot! :(

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WI_DEM]

35. I understand your point, but...

how could Obama or Reid get any bill out of a senate--even a much better bill than this is--when we have four or five "democrats" and Lieberman who will block any kind of health reform bill that features any type of public option? And they certainly wouldn't support what would have been the best of all "Medicare for All"

[AllentownJake]

37. They should have been politically smart enough to know what they could

or couldn't get done.

They got a little high on the 60 vote thing, without realizing their 60th vote endorsed John McCain in the last election cycle.

If this bill was really that important Joe Lieberman would have been told that he will lose his chairmanship and key to the Caucus room for voting against cloture...he still might have. None of us know what phone calls are being made by Harry Reid or the President at this time. You don't make those threats in public, backs someone into a corner.

They were able to make deals with every other conservadem other than Lincoln it appears. I expect her to be getting a phone call from the monster that created her sometime today.

The bill isn't going to fail if the White House believes it is critical. Don't worry yourself.

[WI_DEM]

44. Ok, I see your point. And I agree I hope that the WH and Reid will

put pressure on Lieberman that if he votes with the GOP to filibuster he will lose his chairmanship. What's the use of having him in the caucus or any of the others if they help kill the key democratic agenda of Obama's first year.

[AllentownJake]

47. That is my point

If this bill fails, it isn't going to be because the progressives on DU are pissed off over some provisions. It is going to be because the White House and Harry Reid don't have the balls to play hard ball with 4-5 Senators.

They've been playing nice since June.

[HughMoran]

71. I agree - and the screws are tightening.

This bill will pass. It has to.

[AllentownJake]

80. If it doesn't

They are in some serious fucking trouble. Conyers going out and calling out the President yesterday and DeFazio calling for Geithner's head was just the beginning of the White House troubles.

The last thing you can afford is a revolt in your own ranks, and he has got one brewing.

[HughMoran]

86. Senate Bill first

Geithner was expendable from day one - but it has to be timed correctly as you've stated. Weird reality of this though? After 2010 elections the economy may not be #1 issue and he may skate by...

[AllentownJake]

87. Investors are hiding their dollars in T-bills with negative yields right now

The economy will be an issue well past the 2010 elections.

[Cleita]

40. Well, I understand that the 60 votes for cloture is an

arbitrary ruling by the Senate that Harry Reid could change to 51 if he wanted to. Now I'm not saying this entirely correct as I heard it somewhere on the radio yesterday and I would google but I have to get ready for work right now. But it is something to think about.

[SammyWinstonJack]

41. 'rainbow bright squad'

:spray: :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

49. You are bad!

:spank: :evilgrin:

[AllentownJake]

53. Get my hits in before Saturday

When it is explained to me that pre-existing coverage denial remaining in place till 2014 is a good thing. Despite the fact that it being implemented immediately was the only leg they had to stand on two weeks ago.

The pleas for those not sick now but sick in 2014 will be deafening.

[SOS]

67. The fact that the Senate bill does not kick in until 2014 is sickening

When Bush wanted hundreds of billions to invade a country uninvolved in 9/11, these same lackeys came up with the approval, the money and the war in six months.

But banking regulations? 2010.
The health bill? 2014

What a joke.

[AllentownJake]

74. Yeah they are pathetic excuses for human beings

but at the end of the day our guys still have a touch of humanity in them...somedays less than others.

[iceman66]

46. Obama is far less to blame for this than Reid and Pelosi

The biggest problem here is that Democratic party discipline in both houses of Congress is a JOKE. Neither Reid nor Pelosi have any real commitment to progressive ideals, and Obama is hamstrung by this. In contrast, the GOP operates like a well oiled machine.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about is the Stupak amendment. There is something WRONG when we can't even get a VOTE on single payer, but an anti-abortion amendment not only makes it onto the floor but into the final bill. That can hardly be said to be Obama's fault, but is precisely illustrative of the systemic problem.

[AllentownJake]

51. The President is the leader of the party

and I assure you that Rahm Emmanuel is sitting in hour long meetings 3 days a week with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid defining what the strategy is.

[iceman66]

55. Don't be so sure of that.

Do you really think this Congress takes marching orders from Obama?

I think that Obama is as frustrated with the state of affairs as anyone, but he made a strategic decision early on in the process to not try and dictate to Congress because he didn't want to repeat the mistakes of Clinton.

I may be wrong, but it sure seems to me that the Congressional leaders are far more beholden to the desires of lobbyists and special interest groups than the dictates of the Obama administration.

[AllentownJake]

59. The President provides political cover

He is more popular than any member of congress right now.

The President made more of a communication where he stood this summer when he flew out to Montana instead of West Virginia.

[iceman66]

73. You think that trip to Montana was anything other than an attempt to put pressure on Baucus?

People like Baucus are the root of the problem, not Obama.

[AllentownJake]

78. Baucus was doing what he was told to do

Don't be Naive.

How do you put pressure on someone by having a giant rally in their state touting what good work they are doing?

Got a clue for you, the first stop on the Jobs tour is in my hometown. I'm 90% sure why I know why it was picked. Arlen Specter is facing a primary challenge. Believe me Arlen is going to be his siamese twin on the trip to Allentown.

[iceman66]

83. Very Simply,

Obama held a health care rally in Montana to try and get Baucus on board with health care reform.

You can't seriously believe that Baucus takes his orders from Obama rather than the insurance industry.

Arlen Specter decided to become a Democrat to try and get re-elected. Obama will help him out because of his support on health care and other issues. No big mystery there.

[HughMoran]

68. Snarkasm noted

:eyes:

[AllentownJake]

72. It wouldn't be an AllentownJake post without snark

[HughMoran]

85. It's true

:hi:

I'm trying to stay off the good stuff ;)

[DU GrovelBot]

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