Propriety and the Right to Choose

[Lyric]

I am a gay DU'er. The rules here at DU state that members are expected to support gay rights, including the right to marry. Breaking this rule by posting anti-gay-marriage screeds generally involves a warning and then a tombstone. This is the standard by which our community operates, and I think it's a good and important standard.

However, this logic is not applied to an equally-offensive and equally-important issue of civil rights for women--the right to choose. And it's not just DU--it's the party as a whole. Somehow it seems more "acceptable" to be against abortion than it is to be against gay marriage. I don't understand it at all. Isn't that position just as offensive as the people who'd deny me my right to marry? Aren't women's civil rights as vital to the party (and to the nation) as GLBT civil rights are? It makes no sense to me. I can't understand why it's okay to denigrate, insult, and offend women by arguing that we should not have control of our own bodies.

I don't know if it's because we want to be a "big tent" or because we're afraid of offending religious Democrats, but wouldn't both of those reasons also apply to the gay marriage issue? For DU specifically, why are we okay with offending religious people over gay marriage, but not over abortion? And why don't more people speak up about this strange double-standard in what we tolerate and what we don't?

I, for one, would like to see anti-choice speech forbidden here, right along with anti-gay speech because to me, both are types of hate speech and bigotry. I think 99% of the women in our community would breathe an enormous sigh of relief if they knew that they'd never have to suffer that kind of abuse and hate here ever again. I'd suspect that a large percentage of the men would be relieved as well.

What do you think? Does anti-choice speech have a proper place here at DU, or does it make the site as unhealthy and uncomfortable for women as anti-gay-marriage speech would make it for gay people? I think it's worth talking about. I can't help but wonder whether I'm alone in feeling this way. It's not my site, of course, and this is honestly NOT meant as some kind of call-out of the Admins. I'm sure they have a reason for it, but all the same, I hope that this discussion will be permitted. As a woman, I feel enormously violated every time I have to read that sort of thing here--not because I've never seen it before, but because I know that there's really nothing to be done about it. It's allowed by the rules, so I can either take it or leave. It's a bitter, bitter pill to swallow at times, because it seems like my fundamental rights as a woman are neither valued nor defended as much as my fundamental rights as a gay person, or someone else's fundamental rights as a person of color.

What are your thoughts?

[Lyric]

1. My apologies for kicking my own thread.

I don't want this to die down the page without time for people to see it. I think it's an important thing to talk about, I truly do.

[TZ]

2. I am vehemently pro choice BUT

I have had some discussions with pro-life people who aren't in general anti-woman. AND I really dislike censorship. The first amendment is there to protect speech that we don't like really. Its a fine line. I think that people who can discuss abortion rights without being offensive to others should be able to talk about this. I think in order for us to move forward on this topic we need to fully understand why some people are opposed to abortion...Know thy enemy sort of thing.

[Lyric]

5. I disagree.

I can't see any difference between anti-choice speech and anti-marriage speech, and I honestly cannot see that the value of such on a progressive site. I know people who oppose abortion IRL, and while I like them well enough as people, I wouldn't want to see them posting that sort of thing on DU.

As for "moving forward," I don't see how letting people post anti-choice tirades here does anything toward that goal. It upsets a lot of women, it hurts a lot of women, and not much else. I don't see how it's *possible* to discuss being anti-choice without being offensive. I suppose it can be done without being uncivil in language, but the premise *itself* is inherently offensive, so how can anyone be against choice without being offensive? Someone could oppose gay marriage politely too, but that doesn't mean that their opposition isn't offensive underneath the civil words.

[huskerlaw]

6. I have to disagree as well

First of all, the first amendment has no role in a website like this. The first amendment only deals with governmental interference with speech. That's why Skinner, et. al. can ban Freepers for posting any number of anti-democratic screeds.

As for being able to talk about it without being offensive, an anti-choice person could discuss why she personally couldn't have an abortion without being offensive to women. That's the whole point of choice, after all, if you don't like it, don't get one. But I'm with Lyric in being rather unable to understand how someone who wants to push their anti-choice values on anyone else can do so without offending women.

[Whoa_Nelly]

3. K&R

Thanks for posting this :hi:

[huskerlaw]

4. I completely agree.

Thank you for raising this issue, Lyric.

While I think that there's a way to discuss things like the Stupak amendment without attacking women's rights, I do not think anti-choice rhetoric should be allowed. This issue, like the gay rights issue, really isn't that difficult. Either you're for rights and equality or you're not. And if you're not, there's another party that would be more than happy to accept you.

Personally, I've had just about enough of the pandering. From both the politicians who represent this party and from the people who continue to re-elect them. If your religion forbids you to get an abortion, fine...that does not mean you have the right to push your religious beliefs on ANYONE ELSE. Same goes for gay marriage. Don't like it? Join a church that won't perform them. But DO NOT force your beliefs on anyone else in the process. If you can't wrap your brain around that, then the door's to the right.

[RetroLounge]

7. Thanks for posting this

:hug:

RL

[KamaAina]

8. The problem is, as we just learned, there are anti-choice Dems out there.

Whenever they pop up here, of course, I play "Whack-An-Anti", just like I do with the sexists, homophobes, anti-Semites, etc.

The question goes to the very nature of DU: Is it a community for progressive Dems, or do DLCers or even "C Street Dems" like Stupid Stupak get to play, too?

[flvegan]

9. Kick!

[BlueIris]

10. I wouldn't mind seeing anti-choicers kicked off the boards, but that would require

an acknowledgment that misogyny is, you know, WRONG, which won't happen here anytime soon.

[BlueIris]

11. Kick. Food for thought. nt