look, you are all going to die. horrible deaths. obama is not going to save you.

[mopinko]

everybody dies. most people die of fatal diseases. some die of accidents, or suicides, or homocides. blessedly quick passings. most of us have an ugly mortal battle.
no amount of health care is going to stop that. the president is not going to make people stop dying.
sorry. but the emotional pitch of a lot of these discussions is so humming with people's fears for their own mortality that it makes my head spin.

[JuniperLea]

1. Well, you can't see it...

But I rec'd... Jesus God... the insanity here is beyond morbid... beyond idiocracy...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Well, yes, but why rush the process?

Bad or unavailable health care deprives people of a lot of life they might have otherwise.

[mopinko]

18. why stall the process?

why give in to fear?
not pronouncing. asking.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. If you have a condition that would be fatal but is curable

through the use of normal medical procedures, and the only reason you can't get treatment for it is that you don't have health insurance or money for the treatment, should you simply accept the fact that you have to die of something eventually, so what's the problem? Maybe you're a 25-year-old with Hodgkin's disease, which is highly curable, but you can't afford treatment, so you should just be OK with being dead in a few months?

[mopinko]

21. that is not my point. my point is that people's fear of death is infusing the

debate.

[dflprincess]

24. I think it's the fear of PREMATURE death that is infusing the debate

and the fact the over 40,000 die every year because they cannot access care should be part of the debate.

[mopinko]

30. well, that would not be my point, but

i think your point has been hashed to death, while mine has been <0rec's.

[bikingaz]

36. Bad health is one thing - what about bad choices?

what about bad choices - abuse using alcohol or drugs, unprotected sex, reckless lifestyles

should you pay for my excesses?

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. Seriesly?

:eyes:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. It's true that we're all going to die...

But I do think a bit of tenderness goes a long way towards dispelling our fears...

I'd like a bit more even-handedness about all of it.

[mopinko]

12. tenderness begins with acceptance, i think.

without it, how can we begin?

[G_j]

4. in all respect,

but I swear some Republican(s) said something similar recently.

[bobbolink]

5. Tell ya what.... maybe we can publish a daily list of who has died, so you can cheer.

Did you have a party after looking at namesofthedead.com?

Just when I think so-called "liberals" can't be any more hard-hearted, someone proves me wrong.

[kenny blankenship]

6. We're all Reagan's children here.

[mopinko]

10. sometimes it takes a hard heart to look into the abyss, but

sometimes it takes a hard heart to get out of bed in the morning. i am not wishing that people die. i am just stating the fact that some people cannot accept that as a fact, and that it is a deception that hurts them most of all, but the rest of us quite a bit, too.
but hey, i am an atheist, too, so what do i know.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[REP]

29. No more treatment for your fibro. You can live with the pain.

[mopinko]

32. i do. perhaps that is why i do not see

docs as the bringers of miracles. i live with pain, and tests, and drugs, but still failure. we would all be a little better off if we fought this monster instead of denying it. that is not to say that people do not all deserve compassion and help. it is to say that the fear is so large for many here that i can smell it from my house. that is not a good basis for policy. it leads to all manner of folly and failure.

[ipaint]

42. The Canadians don't seem to be "crazy with fear", maybe

because they have universal care?

Everyone deals with death. It seems to me the uninsured have been forced to face it and live with the reality everyday sometimes for years. I certainly know that any cancer I may get will go undiagnosed until it's too late and I could die early and rather uncomfortably. I could also die tomorrow in an accident. Being uninsured causes me to face my death and accept it as best I can.

I don't think that has anything to do with getting people health care who need it. Acting to advance that goal makes us more human. You are fortunate, you are insured, have a doctor, access to test and drugs. Perhaps it's your fear you smell in your house.

[mopinko]

51. so, you are saying that canadians don't fear death?

just because they have insurance?

everyone doesn't "deal with" death, except in that it comes for them. at the risk of opening another can of worms, i think that the christian faiths rest on a core of death-fear avoidance. you don't die, see. that's the reason to believe.

people do some of the craziest things they do in their life when the whistling past the graveyard is interrupted by the opening of the gates.

[ipaint]

53. Yes they do. They are human.

I am saying they certainly don't to the extent that they would deny their neighbors access to healthcare.

The desire to care for one another doesn't stem from an irrational fear of death. Believing it's perfectly fine for folks to be denied care and die does though.

I don't put any stock in faith, hope or promised change. Nor do I believe in life after death.

Access to healthcare so I can take care of myself would be nice, though, since that is all I have.

[mucifer]

7. Mo as a hospice nurse who watches people die on a regular basis I gotta agree with

you there is a lot of suffering out there, with or without insurance. Sometimes (tho thankfully not too frequent) no matter how much narcotics we give someone they still suffer horribly.

But, I don't want us to end up like Mexico where the health care is much worse than ours. I hear stories from my patients. Very few have access to decent care. Without reform I think it's gonna be just like Mexico.

I do think it's great that these bills in congress are for setting up primary health clinics that can deal with preventative medicine. That could make a difference in people's lives.

[mopinko]

16. you know, i went to india this spring, and we are so lucky here.

i guess a lot of my feeling about this topic has to do with how lucky we are here just to have clean water, and enough food. i think we are spoiled. i know i am. i have benefited much. my quality of life is something that few there could imagine.

but really, the point is just about the fear. it distorts the debate, imho.
it is something that all of us would be better off to confront.

[Lars39]

46. The people with good healthcare don't live with that fear. *That* is what

is skewing the debate. They have no clue how the rest of us live, or suffer needlessly until dying an early, preventable death.

[mopinko]

47. people with good healthcare think they are immortal? or they are just

fearless? or you just think they are not human beings?

[Lars39]

63. The people with good healthcare tend to take it for granted...they don't

cringe every time the phone rings, thinking it's a bill collector, they don't think twice about scheduling an MRI that they need, and so on.

[mopinko]

64. that doesn't make them not terrified of what will show up on the mri.

it doesn't make them not people like you. it doesn't make them assholes.

the point is fear of dying, and the emotional baggage that people bring to debates that touch on it.

[Hannah Bell]

73. but not of going into debt or on the dole to pay for it. not of losing all their assets

& having their credit ruined. not of having to choose between cancer treatment, suicide or homelessness.

[Hannah Bell]

72. no, the fact that indians live in abject poverty without health care doesn't equate

to "americans are spoiled."

that's the reactionary spin on that set of facts, as is your contention that the only reason people are concerned with h.c. is their primitive fear of death, which, since everyone dies, means h.c. is unimportant.

so bend over & suck it up while the masters of the universe ream you. hey, they die just like you do (just 10-15 years later, on average, with less morbidity while they live). no big deal, everybody's equally mortal on this bus, right?

I can't believe a "democrat" is here making the argument "X has no feet, therefore you are spoiled."

[bluestateguy]

8. I might not have put it the way you said

but I definently see your point.

[WCGreen]

9. You miss the point in a very big way....

It's the worry about how to pay for unexpected health problems that is the concern.

I believe in a civilized society end of life experience is about measuring the life you have led, reflecting on your relationships, making peace with your self.

In our more brutal, capitalistic way of life, it is the fear of leaving unbearable costs behind for our loved ones that is what drives the fear of sickness.

Is it a well spent life if you are constantly worried about costs and deductibles and co-pays or is it what we all believe; a base approach to life that undermines the whole fabric of our society.

[G_j]

14. the family going BANKRUPT, and THEN dying

now that really sucks!

[mopinko]

17. no, i know that. it is my real fear.

insured and spoiled tho i am, my kid's futures could be sucked into my quality of life, while i battle the inevitable. and if i could accept it, instead of battle it, is that not a wiser choice? my fear clouds my choices. this is a defeat.

[Hannah Bell]

74. that's the "you're spoiled, other people have no feet, why don't you just cut yours off, then

you won't fear the inevitable" argument.

here's an idea: how about if everyone just got medical care? including those with no feet.

then they wouldn't be afraid, either.

[mdmc]

11. r

[Oregone]

15. Ive always realizaed that

To me, the debate has a lot more to do about bankruptcies, debt, social mobility, etc. Thats not to say that people do not actually die from a lack of health care, which could be prevented otherwise. Thats inexcusable.

[ixion]

20. kicked and recommended

I agree.

[walldude]

22. Well some of us are going to die way too soon because we can't get care for

treatable diseases. Who the fuck are you kidding with this bullshit. You go tell this to the parents of the 17 year old girl who died because her insurance company waited till after she was dead to ok the money for the transplant she needed. Go ahead tell them to their faces how everyone is going to die and there is nothing they could have done to prevent it.

This post is the biggest fucking crock of fucking bullshit I have seen here in a long time. Congratulations.

[mopinko]

23. exhibit a. np

[walldude]

58. LMAO.. that's all you got? Exhibit A?

I'm scared of dying and it's fucking up the debate. Pathetic. I notice you made no actual response to my request. Please I'd like to see you go to the grieving family and tell them how it's their fault their 17 year old daughter is dead because they were waiting on Obama to save them.

[AllentownJake]

25. and people call me a doom and gloomer

:rofl:

[laughingliberal]

26. There are fates worse than death

And some of them are the results of poor access to health care. As an oncology nurse for 15 years and a hospice nurse for 10 years, I found most do not fear death, most fear suffering. Lack of health care can result in suffering. Untreated, chronic, debilitating illness can produce a lot of suffering which might be mitigated with access to medical treatment. There is a time to die but there is a time to treat, also.

[REP]

27. You will bury your children. Have a nice day now!

[saltpoint]

28. Hah! The rest of us are immortal. We have secret knowledge!

But not you.

You don't have any secret knowledge and you are going to die a mortal death while the rest of us live on.

So there.

[Lorien]

31. Why bother doing anything at all then?

Why not sit in your bathrobe all day staring at the walls waiting for death? The president can indeed make a lot of people stop dying EARLY. If you have zero concern for the length of your life, fine, but don't stand in the way of those who want to live it fully.

[mopinko]

33. another one who missed the point.

congratulations.

[walldude]

57. If you actually had a point besides the one on your head

you are so fucking obtuse that it's impossible to see.

[Jennicut]

34. I will probably die earlier then most if my kidney or liver goes. I have accepted that I most likely

will not make it to 80 let alone 70. Too many complications can happen and having diabetes from age 28 to 60-something is going to take a toll on my body. Already, I have days where I am damned fatigued and just want to do nothing and I am only 33. My blood sugar never seems to be overly stable. I am taking a form of insulin that may cause cells to mutate into cancerous ones (though we are still waiting on if Lantus insulin can cause cancer or not, more tests need to be done). The only thing that would bum me out is if my husband lost his job and we had to find insurance on our own and I was rejected for my "preexisting" condition. We would not be able to afford all my needles, pills, insulin, lancets, meter strips. I would cut down on what I would take and then I would be in real trouble. Diabetics used to die quickly 100, 200 years ago. I would at least like a chance to live and not lose some limbs or have a major organ fail. Not yet, anyway.

[mopinko]

35. i think my point is proven here.

it is past my bedtime, off i go. but to all who could not resist a personal attack instead of a thoughtful response, take a look in the mirror.

[WildEyedLiberal]

43. What point? That people don't want to die because they couldn't afford to treat an illness?

No fucking shit. I'm in my 20s and I have a chronic health condition. If I went the rest of my life without insurance or treatment, I'll most likely be dead by 40. With regular treatment, I have every expectation of living a normal life. Are you seriously saying there's no real difference between being dead at 40 and dead at 75?

[mopinko]

50. not saying anyting of the sort, but that doesn't seem to be stopping the

many semi-literate members of du from missing the point that i was making. i am not commenting on the wisdom or lack thereof of health insurance of any sort, or healthcare of any sort. just pointing out that making a decision of this magnitude is difficult in part because of people's fear. fear of death. which will come for us all.
we would be have a far less acrimoniousm, and likely more useful, debate if people fought their internal battles on their own time.

[Hannah Bell]

75. i don't think so. in fact, the poster's comment has nothing to do with your "point".

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

37. I hope I die in my sleep. I've never expected any President to fulfill that hope. nt

[uppityperson]

38. Of course. But he can affect the quality of our lives before then. nt

[saltpoint]

39. In our darkest hour, Franklin Pierce will visit us like a spectre and drop

an elixir onto our sleeping foreheads comprised of one part bourbon and one part a tiny portion of blood from Benjamin, his youngest son lost in a train accident, and as the vapors of this elixir spread across our skin, the secret of immortality shall be revealed to our central nervous systems, and we will know immortality.

That's my theory.

[bemildred]

40. Indeed, fear just makes you stupid. nt

[anonymous171]

41. Rich people make that kind of argument a lot. Just like their "Money doesn't buy happiness" schtick

Isn't true, but it makes the person saying it feel better about their privilege.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Spot on

This one is steeped in guilt and fear and is trying to work her issues out here. On this thread, we hear that she has all the insurance and medical care that money can buy, travels the world for frolics, and that she worries about her kids, even though of course they are also going to die no matter what, perhaps even before she does. Others should not have any worries, but it is fine for her to worry about her kids.
The arrogance and cruelty of such individuals never ceases to amaze me.

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. +1. Also how those who don't 'get' her 'point' are semi-illiterate. Nice.

:eyes:

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

44. The point is, we all die,...HOW ARE WE GOING TO LIVE?

We can choose to be TAKERS, GIVERS or something in the middle.

BEFORE we die, we have to live with our choices.

So,...my cats are bugging the crap out of me.

I choose the comfort of my cats over posting on DU,...they ARE "alive",...as am I, presently.

[philly_bob]

45. UNREC imperative for humane medical system not = fear of death n/t

[RB TexLa]

48. Oh no! Just read DU, if you don't smoke, don't drink soda, wear a seatbelt

you will live forever.

Don't try to tell them they will die, that's just silly to think if they do everything they think is right that they will still die. They are just going to tell you that you must be a shill for corn, soda, cigarettes or part of that "gosh darned personal responsibility crowd."

[marmar]

49. And some die a lot sooner than they should.....

..... because they don't have health insurance.

[mopinko]

52. that would be the other

560,456,275 threads about this subject.

[Toasterlad]

59. So I Guess We Shouldn't Bother Eating?

I mean, we're all going to die anyway, so why prolong it by refueling our bodies?

What patently absurd bullshit.

[mopinko]

65. you missed the point completely

but you have a lot of company. so, you can keep whistling past the graveyard for now.

[Toasterlad]

67. Why Don't You Explain It To Me?

Please explain why we should get the best healthcare we possibly can to improve quality of life for all, or why we shouldn't blame Obama for not doing the best he can to get it for us? If you have a reason besides "because we're going to die some day", you certainly haven't successfully communicated it.

[Are_grits_groceries]

60. Afraid of dying?

It happens. Until I am at some point where I know it is coming, I don't dwell on it.

I will tell you what I am AFRAID of that relates to insurance. I have very poor vision. I will soon need cataract surgery that will give me some respite.

I am AFRAID of going blind because I can't afford a procedure that is not some wild ass trial.

I am AFRAID that I won't be able to read, use the computer, watch teevee, and take care of myself.

I don't believe in the kindness fairies who will help me if I need it. Maybe there are some people who will help, but who knows. It costs even to get items to help people adjust.

That is why I am PISSED. That is what will make me lose sleep. I won't ACCEPT it and go quietly.

I am making so much noise about it that I will probably go deaf too.

HEALTH CARE will stop this! HEALTH CARE can stop a lot of unnecessary problems that people will die from. You want these people to ACCEPT that coldhearted bullshit.

I don't care what is causing people to rise up and demand a decent health care plan. It may take the voices of people who are scared of dying and those who don't have to die or suffer needlessly.

I say "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" until you have reached that end if you know it has come. When I am sure that I will be going if I get that chance, then I will think about acceptance.

I will not tell anybody how to approach their mortality. That is up to them. Whatever they choose, I will try to help them deal with their choice.

Until then, I will ACCEPT living and pushing for health care that allows that to the fullest.

[earth mom]

61. So what you're saying is suffer and die penniliess and in debt and you'd better like it, bitch!

Sorry, but the way this country treats the sick is BARBARIC compared to Canada, France, the UK, etc.

There are more humane ways to go about treating sick and dying people which doesn't include letting them die penniless and/or in debt.

How stupid do you think people are to be okay with being served up this crap?!

[H2O Man]

62. I would suggest

that, while there is no question that every individual who is born will die, that the more important question is if the individual will actually live a meaningful life.

[mopinko]

66. or will the fear of their own mortality dog them, and dim their lives.

none of this is to recommend that people hurry up and die. i just see a lot of the people herescreaming, obsessed, terrified, people who are being driven. imho, always a bad thing. not that i don't indulge, i definitely do. i am most certainly overlaying my own struggles on this right now, and asking myself why i cannot spit in the eye of that black thing that follows us all.
many people will channel that struggle into works of great bravery and compassion. but many will simply drive over the cliff.
so i am trying to say, perhaps we should look.

[H2O Man]

69. Fear is the worst enemy

that any individual can have. And I do not mean, for example, the fear that keeps us alive and safe .... such as fear of sharks when we see a fin from the shore. But, as I believe you are saying, fear of sharks in our apartments, houses, automobiles, and back yards. Fear of being alive, for an undetermined number of rides on this living planet, as it circles the sun.

The level of fear and ignorance is making DU, like much of the US, a rather unattractive place to be right now.

[RagAss]

68. "I wasn't born. I was fermented." - W.C. Fields

[rd_kent]

70. This is NO LONGER about healthcare. This is about RIGHT and WRONG. This is about the rights of the

PEOPLE vs. the rights of the CORPORATION. This is about progressing this nation into a new era vs. right wing ideologues that only care for themselves and their money. Healthcare is but a footnote now, this is a fight for our FUTURE.

[cliffordu]

71. Reccied. My wife's best friend

just had her twenty three year old nephew beaten to death...


It can happen anytime. Hating the Prez for a shit bill won't save your ass, except in rare circumstances.

[treestar]

76. Health care could save a lot of lives

Many of us would be dead already if it weren't for health care.

There are deaths that could have been prevented had health care been accessible.

[Fla Dem]

77. Geesh, why don't you tell that to some mother with a sick child

Who maybe through no fault of her own, working with no benefits has to watch her child die because of lack of insurance. Or the young Mom with breast cancer, and two kids who can't afford the health insurance premiums. Yes we're all going to die someday, some of us will go gently into the good night, some of us will go fighting for every minute of life we have on this good earth, some will readily give in to find relief from suffering. Some as you say will go by their own hand or at the hand of others. But however one's end may come, it should not be because someone said to them, I'm sorry we cannot do anything for you because you have no insurance. To me that is legalized murder. To refuse anyone treatment when that treatment could prolong a good life or CURE someone is in fact euthanasia.