The Return of Howard Zinn, and Company- A packed house hears a left-wing critique of Obama

[Orwellian_Ghost]

"It's a very delicate question," he mused. "Why? Well, it's not easy to talk about." Everyone wants to support Obama, he continued, or at least everyone in his circle. Everyone wants to love Obama. But let's face it: "His presidency doesn't measure up. I have to say that. But why? How? How come?" Militarism, he answered. Obama has kept the troops in Iraq. He's sent more troops to Afghanistan. "He's continued a military foreign policy."

Not to be a know-it-all, Zinn said ("though I do know it all," he joked), but those who expected great change from this president were fooling themselves. Look at history, he urged, invoking his mantra; Democrats are as aggressive as Republicans.

"They're all in this for war," he said. "That's what we call bipartisanship." Those surprised or disappointed are those who "exaggerated expectations, romanticized him, idealized him. Obama is a Democratic Party politician. I know that sounds demeaning. It is."

"There's an enormous weight left over by the Bush administration," Zinn said. "Unfortunately, he has done nothing to begin to lift that weight." Change can happen only by grassroots protest strong enough to move entrenched interests.

...

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/10/29-4

[QC]

1. OK, how long before the froth-mouthed denunciations of Zinn begin?

I'm thinking mere seconds.

[Echo In Light]

4. Too bad this hadn't come along earlier when I posted the Gore Vidal interview

T'woulda been a big ol TWO MIN HATE!!!!

Rec for Zinn ;)

[QC]

6. Throw in a Chomsky and the "centrists" could have them a real hategasm. n/t

[Echo In Light]

8. "Hategasm" ...ha, now there's an apropos term for it

[jonnyblitz]

12. and don't forget the eeeevil Helen Thomas. nt

[QC]

14. Oh yes, now there's a real enemy of the people for you.

Somebody neglected to tell her that she was supposed to stop questioning official pronouncements last January 20.

[kath]

40. don't forget to throw in Dennis Kucinich too - he's EEEE-VUL!!

[QC]

42. There is no limit to his wickedness. He makes baby Jesus cry. n/t

[kath]

43. Oh, oh, oh, and Michael Moore too! He's VERY eee-vul -- he's been spreading his eee-vul-ness for

DECADES!

[QC]

56. Of course he's evil--he's fat.

It goes without saying.

:sarcasm:

[geek tragedy]

24. Zinn and Chomsky, though not perfect, are progressives

who hold enlightened views on their fellow human beings. They are not foul misanthropes.

:)

[tomp]

39. why even raise the issue of perfection?

who's perfect? enlightened is just fine, without the caveat of falling short of perfection.

how about "correct"? could they not be simply correct in their interpretation of events?

sorry to split semantic hairs but we on the left are so often accused of "purism" and perfection-seeking that I thought I had to say it.

[geek tragedy]

45. Just personally I have some trouble with some of

Chomsky's past writings--a little too non-judgmental of Holocaust deniers and the Khmer Rouge--and of the claims he makes without much supporting evidence. I tend to disagree with him and Zinn quite a bit.

But, I recognize that their heart is more or less in the right place, and that they want essentially the same things I want for society.

[kenfrequed]

48. That was a trumped up bunch of crap

Chompsky had written a general letter in favor of academic freedom and openess that was put at the front of a book by a french professor and holocaust denier without his implicit permissions and without him knowing the exact content of the book.

[anonymous171]

47. Chomsky is a Libertarian Socialist and Zinn is a socialist.

They may be leftists, but they are not "progressive."

[cali]

7. I like Zinn. I admire Zinn. I hardly think his every word is gospel and

though I agree in part with what he says here, I don't agree with all of it. I'm sure in your mind that's a froth-mouthed denunciation.

[QC]

9. Actually, no, that's not what I consider a froth-mouthed denunciation.

You probably shouldn't give up your day job for that mind reading gig.

[kenfrequed]

49. Well

He is a historian and his writings do a pretty good job of both citing primary sources and presenting a history that relates to how most working people did. He had a greater sympathy for the rebels than the robber barons.

If there is some vauge thing that you disagree with him on it might be more instructive for you to specify.

[kenfrequed]

50. Well then...

He is a historian and his writings do a pretty good job of both citing primary sources and presenting a history that relates to how most working people did. He had a greater sympathy for the rebels than the robber barons.

If there is some vauge thing that you disagree with him on it might be more instructive for you to specify.

[anonymous171]

2. Zinn has a pretty limited world view, but he is usually correct.

Militarism is only a symptom of the Corporate control of our government.

[BeHereNow]

3. Kick and Recommend-

Wake up people.
Zinn is stating MILDLY the unpleasant REALITY.
BHN

[Ignis]

54. Mildly is the word.

People like Zinn are there to remind us of the historical view of our present situation. They are our early-warning system for the consequences of actions that appear to be politically prudent in the short term.

And Zinn's not out for re-election any time soon. ;)

[BeHereNow]

55. "Historical view" might be helpful if more Americans KNEW history.

Not the mythical history being taught by our corporate run /for profit
"public" education system.

As it has been said before- Americans have the attention
span of a flea.

As sometimes witnessed even here, on DU.
Sad but true.

BHN

[Howardx]

5. agree completely

"Those surprised or disappointed are those who "exaggerated expectations, romanticized him, idealized him."

[Delphinus]

33. I, unfortunately,

am guilty of this.

[struggle4progress]

10. The take-home bottom-line: change comes from grassroots organizing

It's not enough to go to the polls now and then. Our opponents hire people to fight us 24/7, year after year. If we want to beat them, we need to take fighting back seriously: we have to do it with the same business-like seriousness that they have; we have to approach it with a scientific approach to analysis and a willingness to do the hard work to convert the uninformed and undecided; we must dispense with mere sloganeering and name-calling and instead set out to understand the actual details of local and state power structures

Zinn has often brilliantly recounted the history of those who lost historic fights. But every loss should be an occasion for analysis: why did we lose, and how can we avoid losing next time?

[Le Taz Hot]

28. Could you define for me, please,

who the "enemy" is?

[struggle4progress]

29. I don't think I used the word "enemy"

[Le Taz Hot]

31. I stand corrected.

Could you please define who our "opponents" are?

[struggle4progress]

34. I can't tell you how to define your opponents. My own view is that I would prefer a political

milieu with rather more respect for human rights (among which I include basic needs), worker safety, and the natural environment, and considerably less interest in war; I also have certain anti-authoritarian preferences

Human greed, myopia, and tendencies towards self-justification leads to the following fact: those, who have political and/or economic power, often wield it solely for their own ends, attempting to augment themselves and their friends with little regard for others. The rationalizations can become quite elaborate, and the mechanisms can range from disinformation to outright brutal repression. My interests here are practical, not ideological, but the methods of such exploitation can involve substantial ideological nonsense: Jim Crow is an example -- the superstitious idea "race" was used to create and maintain an economic underclass. There are many possible examples; I will not attempt a typology

My opponents are those who materially oppose human rights, worker safety, and the environment. They represent specific interests, in particular circumstances, and they spontaneously self-organize to protect their interests: it is a natural phenomenon; no conspiracies are involved; and the participants frequently are entirely sincere in their beliefs about what they do -- although those beliefs are myopic and self-serving

You can, of course, decide for yourself which side you are on in particular struggles

[Le Taz Hot]

36. Your original post refers to "our"

and "we" but it seems you have changed that to "I" and "you." OK. But my question had to do with who or what you think best represents those values you deem as noble and those you deem are not. Do you think the values you describe are defined and delineated between the two major political parties? Just curious.

As for what "side" I'm on, I have a tendency to not reduce all issues to simple, binary choices.

[struggle4progress]

37. I don't believe in Lone Ranger politics: I'm not alone in my views, and

I work with people who share my goals on particular issues. So my political language is usually "we" and "our," not "me" and "mine." I wish we had a parliamentary system with proportional representation, but we don't: we have a two-party system -- and I don't use the ballot box to make symbolic statements. Given a choice between a candidate who makes me gag a bit and a candidate who makes me projectile vomit, I'll vote for the candidate that makes me gag -- and most Republicans in recent years make me projectile vomit

The real point of my earlier post was this: politics may often seem to begin at the ballot box -- but if one is serious, it doesn't end there. Between elections, one ought not be a solitary atom but should organize coherently to win on particular issues

Not every issue is only two-sided, but for any issue you care about there will be some options that are acceptable and others that are completely unacceptable. So choosing sides can be unavoidable: it's better, of course, if one begins with facts.

[kenfrequed]

52. There are economic issues

That we have bled to much towards moderation and compromise over the years and that is from a point of veiw significantly to the right of Zinn's anarcho-syndicalist tendency.

I think any Democrat that starts spouting the term 'market based solutions' needs to be sent home and take up gardening.

[dixiegrrrrl]

11. ty for posting.

I just finished watching the Zinn bio ..."Moving Train".
Quite fascinating. He is much more accessible than Chomsky.

[Dreamer Tatum]

13. Zinn wouldn't fully endorse anyone as POTUS, no matter what

His whole career is based on "Yes, but..."

[Luminous Animal]

15. Kick!

[paulsby]

16. i'm a strong defender of obama, but zinn is right

i see no evidence that democrats are any less likely to go to war, or continue a war, than repubs.

that's the reality i've seen, looking back through our nation's history.

recall that hillary clinton wouldn't even admit she made a mistake in voting as she did in re: iraq war.

heck, even bill friggin' oreilly has said that if he knew then what he knows now (no WMD's), that he would have been against invading iraq.

i'm not a pacifist. i don't think we should have invaded iraq, but as for afghanistan, i agree with obama's position and agree that we should have gone in, as we did.

i find it amusing all the people who are crititicizing obama vis a vis afghanistan, and who act surprised, when he made it ABUNDANTLY clear he was very much pro the afghanistan war.

[tomp]

41. not surprised, but definitely opposed.

it seems your post is supporting war (afghanistan in particular) and the democratic party which supports war as much as the republicans.

what's up with that?

tell us, regarding your support of the invasion of afghanistan: are you satisfied with the investigation of the 9/11 attacks?

[paulsby]

57. i;m not saying YOU are surprised

i'm saying plenty of people are, with obama and afghanistan. it's pretty clear from how he ran the campaign that he was gonna ramp up afghanistan.

my post IS supporting the afghanistan war, that is correct.

i'm not a pacifist. i believe the afghanistan invasion was justified.

on that front, i agree with obama.

am i satisfied with the 9/11 investigation? i don't really have an opinion either way.

[tomp]

60. the invasion of afghanistan was based on the 9/11 attacks, was it not?

and you don't have an opinion?!?!

logically, i don't see how you can support invading afghanistan and NOT have an opinion on the investigation into the triggering factor. Your position on the war seems to implicitly condone the investigation (or lack thereof or failure thereof).

[HughMoran]

17. "He didn't say he was going to pull a rabbit out of a hat and there will be no more original sin,"

Gordon invoked Henry James: "Things are much more complicated than you ever think," she quoted, then adding from Voltaire to build her perspective: "The best is the enemy of the good. The perfect is the enemy of the good."

She listed what she sees as major Obama accomplishments: growing acceptance of the Muslim faith within our nation, changes in reproductive rights for women, the prospect of a much-improved health-care system. Each of these is "enormous," she said, but even more, Obama "opens up our imagination. He reminds us that the world is a complicated place."

And, she continued, "what will never go back is that African-American kids will look at him and say, ‘The world is different.'

"He didn't say he was going to pull a rabbit out of a hat and there will be no more original sin," she said. And then she closed a writer's circle begun with Henry James: "He's not Gabriel García Márquez. He can't do magic realism. He has to write a realistic novel."

[intheflow]

18. "'The gap between hope and reality is very much a gap inside ourselves.'"

(Ellen) Goodman said she found it "shocking, but I'm going to be the resident optimist." The man hasn't been president for a year, let alone a term. "We're very impatient," she said, and that's not fair.

Yet her hope for more public civility has died away. Goodman sees an organized, bitter, and in many ways fabricated right-wing attack on Obama: the "birthers" (who insist that the president was not born in this country, despite proof to the contrary) and the "kill granny group" (who have said that national health care would lead to euthanasia). They're akin to Holocaust deniers, she said, and they have powerful sway in the country Obama leads.

"There's an underlying anxiety," said Goodman. "Can you be a healer and a politician?" While she doesn't feel hopeless about the president's agenda, "I'm not hopeful about the rise of civility." And so she returned to the theme of the evening, and made it personal:

"The gap between hope and reality is very much a gap inside ourselves."

[malaise]

19. US foreign policy was never going to change

Tell them Zinn.

[intheflow]

20. Wow! Zinn and James Carroll and Ellen Goodman at one event?

How I would have loved to have been there! Ellen Goodman's columns from the late '70s and early '80s were a tremendous influence on me in my late teens and early 20s. I first encountered Zinn's writings during my Intro to Peace Studies course at UConn--which eventually led to my getting two degrees with peace studies concentration. James Carroll came to influence my thoughts while I was in seminary, particularly in regard to Christianity's complicity in the build up to WWII, and the failure of Christianity to be a universal, loving religion. Never heard of Mary Gordon before, but now I'll have to go look her up after reading this write-up.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. "Obama is a Democratic Party politician. I know that sounds demeaning. It is."

"History has tried to teach us that we can't have good government under politicians.  Now, to go and stick one at the very head of government couldn’t be wise." - Mark Twain

[L0oniX]

22. K & R

[G_j]

23. I've always liked Zinn, compassionate first, and brilliant second nt

[leftstreet]

25. K&R

[Solomon]

26. Yawn. Another democrats are no different than

republicans screed. I like Zinn, but I wonder if he bothers voting since we're all the same.

[Le Taz Hot]

30. Are you serious?

You really are a "onesie" aren't you? "Black/white." "Good/bad." "Yer either fer us or yer agin us." Zinn is brilliant, is an accomplished humanitarian, author, commentator and LIBERAL. The man's got more insight in one instant than most of us can muster up in a lifetime. But the fact that he criticizes your golden calf renders him irrelevant to you and the other apologists. That is precisely the reason we end up with mediocrity and corruption in government: Party before principal. :eyes:

[Scruffy1]

46. You are so right

Certainly Dr. Zinn would reject the term "Liberal" to describe his politics. Liberalism to me is Richard Nixon and George Bush. Put a smiley face on an ugly people eating machine pretty much describes the term "Liberal" in my book. But then I am quibbling and agree with you that Howard Zinn has more wisdom and insight than anyone that I've ever read on the subject and politics.. We need to listen to him and realize that he speaks the truth. The dems sold us out for a bowlful of pottage from the insurance companies and defense contractors. We need to look at reality and deal with it and not the spin of the party faithful. New party anyone?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

35. Geez

Zinn is talking about the situation from an observable, historical vantage point. He is not simply ramming his opinion into the room he, as a historian, is chronicling what has happened and I've yet to see a proper refutation of his factual account.

[Solomon]

53. Yay! Zinn For President then. I expressed no hate for the man.

You guys are projecting. He's your golden calf.

Let's make him president and see what he does.

I said nothing derogatory about him at all. I've probably read more Zinn than you have. But he is not GOD.

Nader been saying the same shit for years and people complain because he equates democrats with republicans. They blame Nader for causing a democratic defeat by splitting the vote.

Zinn is doing the same thing, but he's sacrosanct. You know what the difference is? Nader has actually worked in the real world so he's subject to criticism.

Zinn speaks from the academic world. He's sacrosanct.

I said I like the man too, but he's telling you it doesn't make any difference whether you elect a democrat or a republican.

In a lot of ways that is true. But there ARE some differences. Differences that make it worthwhile to cast a vote.

Yawn. I stand by my words. Run him for office if you think he can do better.

[HughMoran]

59. Anybody who criticizes the President is their new golden calf

If Zinn had praised Obama, you can be sure they'd be calling him a "sell out".

[Solomon]

62. LOL So true.

[Fumesucker]

27. K&R

[maryf]

32. "Change can happen only by grassroots protest...

strong enough to move entrenched interests..." lot of work to do...
K&R

[makeanoise]

38. Zinn is correct....

Nothing he said is a lie or derogatory towards the Obama administration...Zinn has always been Anti-War, his comments are not surprising.....and what I've learned from Zinn and Chomsky is to ask the question no one else asks in this debate:

WHAT DO THE AFGAHN PEOPLE WANT?

if you look, you will find most want us to leave and feel our presence is a large contributing force towards violence and attacks in that country....i think the solution is easy to see, but since it's invovling politics, hard to do....

[HughBeaumont]

44. K & R. These occupations need to end NOW.

It's crippling us as a country. I refuse to believe he feels this escalation is worth the cost.

[HamdenRice]

51. Hey, Bwana! Point of Information: What did Zinn have to say about the Civil War & slavery???

Do you agree with his analysis of that part of his People's History???

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. I do. Don't you?

If not, what is it you disagree with?

[HamdenRice]

61. Of course I agree with Zinn. But Bwana, the OPer, thinks slavery wasn't so bad. nt

[Orwellian_Ghost]

63. So many fabrications

Did you run out of seal pup silliness and now have moved on to straight-faced lying?

And it's coming from one who supports the neo-colonial institutions that promote today's version of indentured servitude. It's coming from one who consistently supports financial institutions that are constantly engaged in economic policies that exploit brown-skinned people all across the globe.

It seems you have mastered the twofold art of either lying or not telling the truth.



Remember this one from the archives?

Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts)

Fri Jul-24-09 02:10 AM
Original message

What we all have to come to grips with is that RACISM KILLS
Updated at 1:15 PM

It seems to me that obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly acculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.

One of the most important things that we all have to come to grips with is that RACISM KILLS (as do sexism and homophobia, and all the other oppressions.)

So many people don't seem to understand what racism even is. "Are you saying ________ is racist?" "Oh, no, I'd never say THAT." BULLSHIT. Of course ________ is racist. And so is everyone else who can't see that it is the racism and classism that does the killing. So let's not shy away from charging that most of our leaders and our whole government, the entire system is racist to the core.

Perhaps the worst, but certainly the most intransigent aspect of racism is the part(s) based on SUBconscious or even UNconscious beliefs that there are people who simply don't count as much, for whatever reason. But the funny thing is, those people tend overwhelmingly to fall into the oppressed groups. "Oh, it's only black folk (so who cares?)," or "Oh, it's only poor folk (who are lazy and therefore deserve what they get) and old people (past their prime and useless) anyway."

The US is a nation born of genocide, suckled on slavery, and weaned on apartheid, and the weaning process has been largely confined to a bottle at board meetings.

And as someone else mentioned, maybe here, maybe elsewhere, the sin, in the eyes of the white and affluent, is not the racism itself, but being reminded of it.

To be fair, it is so deeply ingrained that most do not even realize it, and their indignation is quite sincere when they insist that they are not a bit racist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6135293

[HamdenRice]

64. You should never use the word "fabrications" accusatorily when you support baby seal slaughter

You have the laughable habit of accusing anyone who disagrees with you of supporting this or that disfavored policy. Today it's "neo-colonial institutions".

So I ask again: why do you support the slaughter of baby arctic seals for their fur? Don't you think that clubbing baby arctic seals to unconsciousness and then ripping their hides off while they are still alive is beyond cruel and disgusting? Why do you continue to support that horrific practice?

The seals are sooooo cute!