Why do we need "representatives" anymore?

[Duer 157099]

Maybe our form of government is outdated. Maybe the Internet has given us the technology to represent ourselves. It seems that the only reason people need a representative in government is because they cannot have their own voice heard directly. But we can now. And it's pretty clear that our "representation" in Congress is not doing it's job anyway, so why do we need them? They represent monied special interests, not us.

Is government so sacred a concept that it cannot evolve with the times? How much longer will these obsolete methods be used when much more efficient methods exist now?

[SDuderstadt]

1. Omigod....

you're not serious, right?

We're an indirect democracy for a reason, not the least of which is the issue of how unwieldy it would be to try to make a direct democracy work.

Have you ever taken a civics class?

[Duer 157099]

3. Civics class? Of course, but that was pre-Internet

What I'm saying is that the Internet has changed everything else, why not the one thing that really affects us?

[SDuderstadt]

5. I can't believe I am having to answer this....

Are you honestly claiming the Internet has made people more accurately informed? How would you prevent people from gaming such a direct system? How would you make sure that people did the necessary research to know how to properly approach a subject? How would bills be proposed? How would the committee hearings be held? What if a congressional level commission was needed on some subject? What if some future president required impeachment? How would Supreme Court Justices be approved?

With all due respect, this is as ill-considered an idea as when people (primarily RWers) demand that non-lawyers be appointed and confirmed to the SCOTUS. I believe you mean well, but you really have not thought this through.

[bikingaz]

53. Read reports? Attend committee hearings? They don't do that

They don't read the bills they vote on. They follow the party line.

They don't attend committee meetings until network tvs show up. Heck sometimes they just vote present, instead of yeah or nay.

I agree. Let's dump them and their aides and use the monies saved for something useful.

[peace frog]

2. We could do very well without a Senate

but we must have a House of Representatives.

[valerief]

36. Yeah, but then the lobbyists would just own more of the House instead of just the Senate. nt

[SDuderstadt]

43. Simple question:

In a case of impeachment, who would try (find guilt or innocence) it?

[jinto86]

46. How many more bad bills could Bush have passed...

if we didn't have a Senate. Face it the filibuster principal has helped stop many bills before, not just single-payer or the public-option or whatever else.

[marybourg]

4. How many of us are going to attend meetings and read reports

so that we can understand the issues and all the consequences thereof? Our founders knew human nature and nothing about the internet has changed that nature. No ad hominum attacks necessary; it would just reinforce my point. Thank you.

[Duer 157099]

People become educated when they realize that their rep is not representing them correctly

What if people had a choice to either represent themselves, or let someone else do it for them. Sort of a mix, proportionately.

The people who are interested enough to learn the facts will likely want to represent themselves. Those who like the comfort of their own ignorance can keep it and let someone else, who will sell it to the higher bidder anyway, "represent" them.

I just don't see why it's such a sacred cow, literally.

[SDuderstadt]

10. How do you know that ignorant people won't choose to....

"represent" themselves?

Again, with all due respect, you haven't remotely thought this through.

[Yellow Horse]

29. What about the rural citizens, the poor, and others who lack full Internet access?

Many rural areas of this country have no Broadband. Some remote areas have no Internet access at all, not even decent dial-up.

Millions of people in this country cannot afford a decent computer, let alone Internet access fees. And libraries, etc. where the poor might get online for free have extremely limited resources to provide access. (Where I live, libraries are cutting back and even closing due to state and local budget problems.)

Older citizens often have problems using the technology. Working people don't have time to watch C-SPAN all day. (And like Internet access, not everyone can afford cable or satellite video.)

Sorry, but this is an incredibly stupid idea. UNrecommending this thread.

[Obamanaut]

8. How many of them do what you ask in your subject line? They spend

a portion of their time raising funds for the next campaign, fact finding junkets to all sorts of places sometimes taking their families, glad handing lobbyists and special interest groups.

I don't believe they really read all that paper that they vote on. There just isn't that much time.

As much as issues are discussed here, I betcha many DUers are as familiar with what is going to affect us as are a good portion of the Capitol Hill crowd.

[Duer 157099]

14. Yes, exactly. Until I spent some time watching CSPAN, I would have never believed it

But I saw with my own eyes how ignorant congress people can be. The Internet has provided the background material for me to become aware of issues to whatever depth I choose, and I know for certain that most if not all in Congress are really underinformed about the bills they are voting on.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

6. No. Bad idea.

I live in California. They let people vote on hundred page long budget initiatives here. The group with the most money to run TV ads almost invariably wins. It's horrid.

[Oregone]

7. The reasoning is that people are stupidier than politicians are corrupt

Honestly, I don't really know which method would perpetuate the most disaster

[Obamanaut]

9. I hate it when something makes me laugh out loud and there is no

one here to enjoy it with me.

Thanks for that subject line.

[Oregone]

24. I'm surprised you figured out whether to laugh or cry

:)

[baldguy]

11. The US House of Representatives should be expanded.

The Constitution says there should be one member for every 30,000 people.

[and-justice-for-all]

12. I think we need an open Democracy...

one where, say, like on health care...we get to all vote and decide.

[SDuderstadt]

13. Jesus, this is unbelievable....

"vote and decide" on what, specifically? How would bills be proposed? Who would draft them?

This is a bad, bad idea.

[and-justice-for-all]

17. Then give us three fucking choices and let us decide...

it is not that fucking hard.

[SDuderstadt]

19. And where will those "choices"...

come from?

It IS that fucking hard.

[and-justice-for-all]

25. Absolutly NOT...nt

[SDuderstadt]

27. Okay...

if it's not that hard, please describe the mechanism. Where would the "three choices" come from?

[and-justice-for-all]

31. The choices can be drafted by the Senate/House..

but instead of trying to out bid the fucking insurance industry and all their evil little minions, WE would get to choice or not (you could vote NO on all of the options) choose the result of an issue.

This process would continue until we come to a clear majority on an option. Right now, we have almost no say on things, we have to beg them to things.

[SDuderstadt]

32. And, how active are you in our current system?

Do you even know how the current system works? Do you realize the impracticality of the number of measures that would have to be put to the citizens with or without the involvement of the House or Senate?

How would the oversight function work? Do you even know what the various government agencies do? Do you know what an independent federal agency is? Do you know why they are independent? Would you be able to help oversee the FAA? What about budget issues? How would the federal budget be approved?


As I have said before, this is an idea that has not been thoroughly thought through and, ironically, is proof of why the proposal is a bad idea. There's also that little thing called the constitution. Has anyone thought their way around it?

[and-justice-for-all]

34. What exactly does all that have to do with citizens making

decisions for themselves, rather than allowing reps who are in the pockets of corporations, to make those decision for us?

Obviously, you enjoy a closed democracy.

[SDuderstadt]

39. Quit putting words in my mouth....

and tell us how this proposed system would work. And an indirect democracy doesn't mean it's closed. Seriously, do you even undertand why our system was set up this way and how it works? Have you read much of the works of the Framers? Do you understand the nature of the debate between the federalists and the anti-federalists?

This is an incredibly stupid idea.

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. I seem to remember reading once about something called the tyranny of the majority.

Ever heard of it? You should try WIKI, there's a really good article on it there.

Then get back to me and tell me what you'd feel when you were outside the majority and hated whatever they decided was best for you.

[Duer 157099]

18. That's what they said about Wikipedia in the beginning too

People just could not conceive of such a thing where people volunteered, freely, to create and maintain an online, evolving encyclopedia of any topic.

And yet, there it is.

Never underestimate the power of crowdsourcing when the technology is available to allow it.

[SDuderstadt]

20. If you think Wikipedia is comparable to....

the United States House of Representatives or the United States Senate, you need more help than I can provide.

Can you even begin to propose a mechanism to accomplish this? Have you thought this through?

[Duer 157099]

22. True. Wikipedia is much more comprehensive and accurate

Do you wonder if your Senators use Wikipedia? I'll bet they do.

[SDuderstadt]

26. Oh, bullshit....

do you honestly think Wikipedia is 100% accurate? And, again, how in the world is Wikipedia remotely like the US Senate or House of Representatives? This frankly one of the most naive ideas I have ever heard.

[Roland99]

15. *WE* don't need them. Corporations do!

*sigh*

[Caliman73]

28. Therein lies the problem

We do need representatives who will do right by the majority of their constituents. Majority as in those constituents who represent the majority of the districts population, not those who have the most to spend. It isn't that the representatives are evil people, it is that there is too much temptation for them to make the easy, but wrong choice. Lobbying is the problem. Not grassroots, get 100,000 people to march nationally or 1000 locally types of lobbying, but the, "my company wants to build a factory in this nature preserve, so why don't we talk about it over a trip to Paris" type of shit has to stop. We have to find a way to make everyone's voice equal and not allow wealthy interests to dictate our representatives' votes.

[demodonkey]

16. The current Internet is dangerously insecure and not safe for voting.

Beware any scheme to start up Internet Voting of any kind. It will make our current problems with paperless electronic voting machines look like happy child's play.

The Internet as we know it is incredibly prone to hackers and other problems, even on so-called "secure" sites.

Read what esteemed computer scientists say about Internet Voting HERE:
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=5867

Besides, our government is not "Dancing With The Stars", or even "Survivor". Nor should it be.

[Duer 157099]

21. I agree, but it's still young and for every problem there is a solution

and for every solution, there is a new problem. Those are givens.

But why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

I use online banking, as do many others. It's not that the technology isn't available, it's poor implementation. If the will is there, the way will be made.

[demodonkey]

30. No. This is exactly the kind of crap that was said when we got paperless electronic voting...

We have enough problems in society now and we don't need to add more with any crazy scheme for Internet Voting.

Online banking is not at all the same as online voting. And online banking isn't as totally safe and secure as we are all led to believe. If you think that it is, you are probably too naive to be deciding our society's issues anyway.

And the idea of every person voting for everything is absurd. Who in our society would have the time to devote to this, and the access to the resources needed to do it?

There are reasons that Representative Democracy was invented, and they are timeless.

[SDuderstadt]

33. I can't believe we're even having this fucking...

discussion. It's mind-boggling.

[and-justice-for-all]

35. Oh, how dare we question how our Government works...nt

:eyes:

[SDuderstadt]

40. You can question it all you like....

and that is the duty of the citizenry....but you're not advocating mere questioning...you are proposing standing the Constitution on its head.

[dysfunctional press]

23. would YOU trust the results of a vote that was done entirely over the internet...?

if your side lost?

[SDuderstadt]

37. Before this incredibly stupid thread gains too much velocity...

perhaps someone can review the following and tell us how this would be carried out:

Section 1 - The Legislature

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 2 - The House

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Section 3 - The Senate

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, (chosen by the Legislature thereof,) (The preceding words in parentheses superseded by 17th Amendment, section 1.) for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.

Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; (and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.) (The preceding words in parentheses were superseded by the 17th Amendment, section 2.)

No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Section 4 - Elections, Meetings

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing Senators.

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall (be on the first Monday in December,) (The preceding words in parentheses were superseded by the 20th Amendment, section 2.) unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section 5 - Membership, Rules, Journals, Adjournment

Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

Section 6 - Compensation

(The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States.) (The preceding words in parentheses were modified by the 27th Amendment.) They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

Section 7 - Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto

All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

[valerief]

38. Paper ballots!!! Paper ballots!!! Paper ballots!!!

[Yellow Horse]

45. And this is supposed to mean.......???

Do you doubt the problems that paperless electronic voting machines have brought our country and our party? Are you foolish enough to WANT internet voting?

If you do, you do at a the peril of all of us: individual citizens, our party, and our nation.

[valerief]

48. How do you do paper ballots over the internet? Duh! nt

[Libertas1776]

41. 300 Million

simultaneous screaming and shouting voices on how to run the government. Yeah, that sounds like a grand idea :sarcasm:

[SDuderstadt]

42. Isn't this a fucking unbelievably dumb....

idea?

[Libertas1776]

49. very much so

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. How else would the lobbyists control the government except through their paid stooges?

[newportdadde]

50. I say keep the representatives but give them term limits.

I've never understood the reasoning behind not having term limits.

[SDuderstadt]

52. We already have term limits....

it's called an election. In the House, the entire body stands for election every two years.

[Confusious]

51. one glaring example

California.