Vidal on Polanski's 13 y/o victim: "a young hooker feels as though she’s been taken advantage of"

[leanderj]

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200910u/gore-vidal#at

Meroney: In September, director Roman Polanski was arrested in Switzerland for leaving the U.S. in 1978 before being sentenced to prison for raping a 13-year-old girl at Jack Nicholson’s house in Hollywood. During the time of the original incident, you were working in the industry, and you and Polanski had a common friend in theater critic and producer Kenneth Tynan. So what’s your take on Polanski, this many years later?

Vidal: I really don’t give a fuck. Look, am I going to sit and weep every time a young hooker feels as though she’s been taken advantage of?

[Buzz Clik]

1. Very sensitive approach.

[xchrom]

2. ...

:wow: :popcorn:

[YOY]

3. Sounds like you don't like Mr. Vidal.

Lemme guess. Your dislike of Mike Moore's work stems from the fact that "he is fat" too?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

12. Quoting something Vidal said in an interview

without any personal opinion attached in the OP. You must be a fucking mindreader.

[YOY]

15. Hey...if someone wants to attach what he said (and it is disgusting) to his works.

then their motivation doesn't need a "fucking mind reader" to be gleaned.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

29. Yes it does

The OP was basically a news report on an interview with no opinion interjected. You took it upon yourself to equate the news report of a Vidal interview and it's reporting with the OP probably not liking Michael Moore because he is overweight.

Sounded like you were going to bat for Vidal and defending what he said (which is disgusting).

[roguevalley]

73. I like Gore Vidal but that doesn't stop him from being an asshole.

I don't believe he should kick someone else around when he knows what that feels like, the dumbass.

[Freddie Stubbs]

13. Sound like you like what Mr. Vidal said.

Why else would you be attacking the motive of the OP rather that addressing Mr. Vidal's words?

[YOY]

19. About this? Hell no.

About other things? fuck yes.

Why would you think otherwise? This is the first time I've ever replied on anything that had the name "Polanski" in it. Couldn't give a lesser shit about the old pedo. Hope he rots.

Mr Vidal and I agree on a number of things though.

[petronius]

32. Where does this come from? Vidal's comment was despicable,

but I don't see any editorializing in the OP.

:shrug:

[JonQ]

49. Attacking someones appearance

and applying that to their beliefs is not the same as attacking their words and applying those to their own beliefs.

[Codeine]

61. Where on earth did that come from?

I like Gore Vidal a lot, like one of my favorite people on the planet, but that comment was horrible and morally despicable. I am disappointed.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

79. Vidal is a sexist, rape applauding pig.

that and his love of Tim McVeigh makes him a really bad person, and anyone who likes him either a moral or intellectual idiot of the first order.

[WeDidIt]

4. Well, I've lost every bit of respect I ever had for Vidal. n/t

[Echo In Light]

7. If that was the intended goal, it doesn't make me think any different of his other views

[AngryAmish]

62. Halo Effect

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect>

Think about it. Does anyone agree with everything anyone else says or does? No.

I think Mr. Vidal is wrong here but to trash everything he has ever done....

OTOH, respect is a thing not easily regained once lost. It is different than agreeing with someone. Cheers.

[WeDidIt]

81. When somebody says something as vile as Vidal has here

I throw them in the same pit as the likes of Beck.

[Fla_Democrat]

99. Already there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6683764#6691179

[SoCalDem]

5. Her name should NEVER have been released

and yes, in a way, now the "system" is victimizing her again, because salacious stories never really go away..they just recede, and then return again and again.

He should have served his time, and then moved away..

[seabeyond]

6. all females are whores. isnt this the meme. nt

[redqueen]

8. Well, she *was* already sexually active.

So therefore, not a virgin... so yes, therefore - a slut/hooker/whore/etc. Cause she was fucking, but she wasn't married... or something.

x(

[seabeyond]

10. we have gone from a gender of madonna/whore to simply whores.... today.

though we like to make it all pc and nice and spout how we respect us whores, ho's we be.

[Echo In Light]

14. I suspect Gore's view alludes to overarching motive rather than sexual activity sans context

Don't get me wrong; while I do appreciate a handful of Polanski's films, I think he did a terrible thing, and should have paid the piper long ago.

It's just that I find it petty to use Vidal, whose been somewhat outspoken re American politics and policy, in this way since the obvious target are his anti-establishment views ... otherwise there'd be no desire to post this.

That, and many decent people can be counted upon to opine an unfavorable view/statement occasionally, yet in most instances, that usually isn't grounds for automatic cutting of all ties. Human nature is usually a bit too murky for such an iron-clad approach.

[redqueen]

25. Who is using him and how?

I'm just talking about the madonna/whore virgin/slut thing. It's way too prevalent, still.

[Echo In Light]

31. The OP intentionally singled out the Polanksi case, that's how

And I was speculating as to the 'why.'

[Echo In Light]

27. "What are “American values”? Lying and cheating. There’s nothing better."

Interesting interview ... sorta all over the place, too quickly

[northernlights]

28. someone who opines that a "13 year old hooker" has no value

due to her circumstances is one from whom I'd cut all ties in a heartbeat.

She's a 13 year old kid in a horrid situation. That does not make her any less deserving of care; rather moreso I would think, since society has failed her.

It does tell us more about the values and value of Mr. Vidal than it does the child, imho. And that, in itself, devalues anything else he has to offer. Certainly it makes it suspect.

[Raster]

133. I concur. I think the OP has some type of underlying purpose...

and I'm not detecting "warm and fuzzy." And good ol' reactionary DU *always* comes through!

[seabeyond]

135. calling a raped 13 yr old a hooker, and you blame du for being reactionary.

i am seeing some hyperbole myself.

[Raster]

139. apparently there is more to the story, and more to the interview....

...but don't let me interrupt your "righteous" indignation.

FYI: The age of consent in California at the time was 14. The "victim" was almost 14. The "victim" was, by her own account, already sexually active with men. The "drug" used to "drug" the "victim" was furnished by the "victim" herself. There was no hospital report. There was no physical evidence OF ANY KIND. In fact, THERE WAS evidence that "hush money" may have been REQUESTED and PAID. The list goes on.

There was much more to this case then. And many years later--most who don't even know any of the facts--are more than willing to jump into the fray not knowing jack shit.

Hyperbole? puh-leeze. The OP counted on being able to cherry-pick an out-of-context remark from an interview, highlight it and sit back and enjoy the fun. I guarantee 90 percent of the posters to this thread did NOT bother to read any further.

[seabeyond]

142. i know this. and still, .... the man stated, a raped 13 yr old girl is a hooker.

he made this statement in 2009. not the 70's.

it is that simple

on edit: though i know what you type, your positions are not fact, they are guesses and doesnt make it a reality. anymore than the statement made by the victim, because it did not go to court. one has to weigh which story is more plausible with info and circumstances and conclusions drawn, but all this is irrelevent to the OP.

raped 13 yr old girl is being called a hooker by this old fart

[Raster]

143. And guess what: SHE MAY HAVE BEEN A HOOKER at the time.

By the young lady's own admission, she was already "sexually active." This was not a cherubic little angel in her first communion dress.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

145. i have to take a shower. she wasnt a virgin so she was a hooker. nt

[seabeyond]

149. you got my post deleted. what you say is disgusting and mentality of 70's. not brutal stranger rape

then it cannot possibly be rape. after all not a virgin. not a cherubic little angel .... you mean madonna/whore

your post is disgusting

[redqueen]

152. Oh. My. Fucking. God.

:puke:

[seabeyond]

155. unless virgin, she is a whore being paid. nt

[redqueen]

159. And if she doesn't go to the hospital right after, she's probably lying.

I honestly can't believe my fucking eyes.

[seabeyond]

160. especially since she is fuckin 13 being taken home by rapist and we didnt even get to say

being drugged, fed alcohol, anally and vaginally raped and saying no, take me home a number of times was rape in the 70's. not to ention trying to hide rape from mother cause she thinks SHE will be in trouble for being raped

who noes.... not that we can see the problems here.

that must make her a hooker being paid

[redqueen]

162. And because she knew what the drugs were, she probably brought them.

I think I just need to stay out of these threads.

Reading shit like that makes me physically ill. The amount of pretzel logic some people will use to try so very very hard to blame the victim.

Fucking sickening.

[seabeyond]

165. as we read in 2009 about a girl gang raped two hours with male spectators enjoying

the show

and in 2009 we have vidal calling a raped girl a hooker

and we have in 2009 a male saying she isnt virgin so could be a hooker

oh no.... this world is NOT fucked up

[redqueen]

166. And why would anyone get emotionally charged over it?

Fucking unreal... just unreal...

[seabeyond]

163. girls/women were not encourage or told to go to hospital. lets use time only when convenient, like

3 decades old, let is go

oh.... she didnt go to hospital

no one went to hospital

[redqueen]

164. I never went to the hospital.

MANY very young victims don't... they're afraid to even tell anyone most of the time.

Guess why? Assholes like the ones in these threads. Far too god damned many of them.

[seabeyond]

167. and the asshole rapist drove her home. excuse me rapist, take me to hospital

so i can get all the test i dont even know about so three decades later i wont be called a hooker.

wtfuckinf

[closeupready]

173. You didn't know that? I thought it was common knowledge,

that any female with a broken hymen is a cheap, gutter whore nobody should give a fuck about, to paraphrase Gore Vidal. I mean, right? :sarcasm:

:puke: is right! :mad:

[cmkramer]

194. I remember the "hooker" story

I was in college when the case was first in the news. There were a lot of rumors that the victim's mother had been pimping her out in Hollywood, basically making her "available" to rich, powerful older men in order to help jumpstart her career. From what I gather, Polanski's attorneys wanted to investigate that, to find out what other men might have had sex with the victim, etc. However, both Geimer and her mother have always adamantly denied those stories, and as far as I know, they've never gotten beyond the stage of rumors.

But anyway, that's no doubt what Gore Vidal was referring to.

[Echo In Light]

178. Amazing, isn't it. Internet forums provide fantastic social experiments

I'm thinking I may need to change my sig line to a Gore Vidal quote

[closeupready]

184. Use the title of this thread.

n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

104. And she was drinking and drugged. Which means she consented. eom

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. I don't think I've ever read that "all females are whores", anywhere, in my whole life.

Yet, you think it's a "meme"? How did we get from what Gore Vidal said about a rape victim to this?

[JonQ]

51. To Mr. Vidal, apparently

and unfortunately, to many of polanskis defenders as well.

[seabeyond]

54. knock me on my ass

hm

lol

wow.

bah hahahah

i love surprises. thanks

[JonQ]

52. dupe

[Whisp]

9. what a disgusting thing to say. may you go to **** hell.

I once thought well of him now I will spit whenever I hear that name.

*** you, you bloody ***** puke

--
on edit: have to cut down on my swearing, way too much of that lately.

[Brickbat]

11. Wow. I hate the feeling of respect evaporating.

[tonysam]

16. I suppose Vidal has the right to his opinion,

but my feeling about the whole matter is it needs to be dropped for the sake of Samantha Geimer and her family. She wants the matter dropped.

I stand with her, not with the masses of witchhunters who want a pound of flesh.

[cali]

26. you're misusing the word witchhunt. And what Geimer wants is totally irrelevant

This isn't even about the underlying charge. He was found guilty decades ago. It's about his fleeing jurisdiction.

[seabeyond]

30. they come on so reasoned, why to protect raped.... as they ALWAYS misrepresent the issue

told to them over and over and over.

fuck negeance. very few consider vengeance. all kinds of reason to prosecute, and none has to do with vegeance

yet in their reasoned adn calm argument to drop, they always use that hyperbole.

dishonest way to argue

[tekisui]

17. Shame on you, Mr. Vidal.

Stick to discussing politics.

[TacticalPeek]

18. Am I going to weep every time some aging leftie starts losing gray matter too fast?

Yep.

:cry:

[closeupready]

21. He doesn't get laid anymore; too dusty and old. Poor thing.

NOT. :mad:

[snooper2]

59. Isn't that sexist

nt

[closeupready]

76. It's a cheap shot, like Vidal's.

I probably should try to not descend to his gutter talk. Thanks for the head's up. :hi:

[Deja Q]

22. Just because she was "loose" is no excuse to rape...

Or as Whoopee calls it, "rape rape"... :eyes:

(I know the correct spelling of her name; her "rape rape" comment was asinine, end of story.)

[BREMPRO]

23. this is one of the weirdest interview i've ever read.

i used to respect vidal when he was a fierce Bush critic. But after reading this interview where he trashes JFK, Ted Kennedy, Obama, and calls every man in Hollywood a "virgin" and sounds like a nutjob misogynist rape apologist, I've lost all respect for him.

[blogslut]

24. Asshole

What a shit thing to say.

[sudopod]

33. So he gets to say "She was asking for it" becaue he's a famous asshole? nt

Lot of that going around these days.

[Sal Minella]

35. Think maybe the girl's mother accepting money is more of a determinant

than you are allowing yourself to think about.

[sudopod]

40. 13 year olds can't consent.

[Sal Minella]

57. What does this have to do with a mother pimping out her daughter

to an old pedo?

Thirteen-year-olds I have known are not in the habit of saying "No" when told by their Moms to do something.

[seabeyond]

58. there is no evidence her mom "pimped" her out per the gals own words

but hey, shift blame to mom. some fuckin 43 yr old male certainly cannot be responsible for her actions.

[TorchTheWitch]

111. what money did her mother accept?

Money for her daughter's modeling?

[Taverner]

34. WTF - Is Vidal off his meds?

[eShirl]

36. Good to see his personal charm hasn't changed a bit. n/t

[Yehonala]

37. Insane, utterly insane

Is Hollywood even sane anymore? All these celebrities saying these vile things and supporting these vile monsters. They literally support a child molester, and why? I suppose they are afraid that if Roman goes to jail they might be held accountable for their actions.

[reorg]

38. I think you left out the more pertinent part

>>Errol Flynn stood trial for raping underage girls in 1943, and was acquitted. Was he treated differently than Roman Polanski?

Vidal: Everybody liked Errol Flynn.

Women threw their underwear at him.

Vidal: Well, he was clean-limbed. You couldn’t find a single hair on those legs of his. ...<<

IOW, he attributes the fact that Polanski is persecuted with such relentless zeal on the fact that he doesn't shave his legs, LOL! I love this man.

[seabeyond]

39. 5 of the 6 charges dropped. relentless zeal? lucky fucker and he still ran. nt

[reorg]

44. only the devil herself can be so lucky!

agrees to make a deal to avoid bad publicity of a trial
serves the time
judge reneges on the deal - even the PROSECUTOR says he would have run
kisses the US good bye
settles with the accuser
... ... ...
30 years pass, he has a long, successful career in France, marries, has children
... ... ...
but the zealots can still get their knickers in a twist
amazing.

[seabeyond]

45. ahhh po boy, he was picked on. gave alcohol, drugged, raped, sodomized... and the po

boy is being picked on

pretty fuckin sick

[MattBaggins]

64. THOUGHT I say again; thought

the judge was going to give him a stiffer sentence. That is a matter for appeal not an excuse to flee jurisdiction. If some guy kills his wife and "feels" he should only get 5 years he should flee if the mean old judge is going to give him life?

YOU DO NOT JUST GET TO FLEE

You do not get to throw a few dollars at the poor girls mother and say hey I'm an important R-Teest so fuck you little girl.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

83. What you describe is not what happened...

but don't let mere facts get in the way of a good rant

[reorg]

101. People can watch the documentary "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired" (2008)

- with many interviews and extensive statements from all sides - and judge for themselves.

Apparently, it was the huge cleavage of a German waitress (right beside Polanski in a photo taken when he was visiting the Oktoberfest in Munich) that changed the judge's mind about the necessary severity of the punishment.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

102. Some of that documentary was inflated for entertainment purposes according to one participant

Given my own tendency to monkey wrench the media, including so called documentaries, I tend to believe it

[reorg]

128. actually, no

One interviewee later said he embellished his role of pointing out to the judge that the Oktoberfest photos had to be considered an affront. Whether or not the judge really needed him to recognize this is of very little relevance, though (except that it would have been illegal for the judge to discuss such details with this person, as far as I understand).

This is allegedly one of the photos, according to the German daily FAZ (Polanski having a good time with a number of girls considerably younger than him - albeit without cleavages):



I had thought the pictures were more like this one, but I could be wrong:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

134. He pled guilty and allocuted...and so called documentaries are not evidence

He will get sentenced for both the rape and the evasion. Be interesting to see how much time he gets and where.

[reorg]

181. Well, it's a pretty good documentary but the zealots won't watch it

They already know the truth, so why deal with the facts.

Polanski made a deal to get this thing over with. He owned up to his part of the deal, even went to prison for a few weeks although a suspended sentence had been agreed upon. This is where it should have ended, and would have, were it not for the judge and his illegal shenanigans.

Only when it became obvious that the judge could not be trusted, changing his mind on the cue of photos appearing in the local junk press - even the PROSECUTOR says he would have run - Polanski decided he had enough of the US "justice" system and left.

It will be a sad day when Switzerland extradites people to countries where torture is common and people are detained indefinitely without legal recourse, not to mention all the other inhuman aspects of this insane system, the death penalty, life sentences without parole, fourteen-year olds being tried as adults and so forth. Such a system should be shunned and ostracized and I hope the challenge to the extradition request will be successful.

[seabeyond]

103. yes, polenski about gave the judge the finger. most defendents know and are told when judge

is leaning over backward giving them a sweet deal, to KEEP A LOW PROFILE.

polinski, being special, saw no need and bit him on the fuckin ass.

so

his stupid.

again

and his arrogance

again

firstly... and secondly, his industry, the same industry defending him with raping a girl, put this documentary together, and it is the holy rail to you?

read her testimony and see how pretty, sweet and innocent it was

[Gwendolyn]

53. None of those other charges would ever have stuck. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

84. It was a negoiation...and Polanski got to skate

[seabeyond]

85. yup. nt

[Gwendolyn]

87. Wrong. None of the other charges could be proven in court. He said/she said.

The prosecution had no evidence to present whatsoever, other than her word.

That's why they were more than thrilled to offer the plea bargain for sex with a minor. That's all they could prove.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

88. He said/she said is not an automatic loser. A forcibly buggered 13yo makes a very

effective witness. If he thought he could beat the charges, he would have gone to court. He had the resources to fight it effectively.

[Gwendolyn]

90. Lol, tell that to all the rape victims who get screwed over today because of lack of evidence.

There are many of them. It was no different back then.

Again, there was no evidence that he even raped her anally. Or that he fed her drugs. Or that she objected to anything going on. Any decent defense counsel would've easily beat those charges. A desolate young girl on the witness stand might distress an empathetic jury, but no unbiased person would convict based on one witness's word. That's always the conundrum in these cases, and why it's often difficult to get convictions for rape.

Polanski had the resources to fight and WAS ready to do so. The prosecution had no reason to back down if they had a strong case.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

91. I have seen women win and lose in those situations

today NCIS, CSI, etc have made scientific evidence effectively a requirement, but I am old enough to remember wins and loses without it.

If Polanski was ready to fight and the case so weak, why did he take a plea deal and allocute?

[Gwendolyn]

93. He admitted he had sex with an minor. That's what he took the plea for.

That was also the one charge that likely could be proven since there was the witness to it. Angelica Huston had knocked on the door during the rape or sex, whatever it was.

The rest no. In fact it was the mother and daughter that pushed for the plea as they didn't want the story made public. Back then, the girl's prior drug use and "consensual" sexual relationship with another adult male would've been fair game in court. That was on top of the he said/she said factor. How do you think that would've played to the jury back in the 70s? The attitude was still very much "bad" girls don't get raped. They get what they deserve.

[geek tragedy]

100. That's the case with EVERY rape

prosecution.

She's certainly more credible of a witness than a sociopathic predator like Polanski.

[Gwendolyn]

107. Huh? No it isn't the case with EVERY rape, since there is often physical evidence.

Or witnesses. Something to give credibility to the victim's story and assure the jury or judge that a guilty verdict has been earned.

Not sure what makes you believe you're an authority on this case, but would you stake your life on the truth of Geimer's testimony? Right, didn't think so.

Opinion is for message boards, not the court room, thankfully.

[geek tragedy]

109. I wouldn't give a 13-year old booze and drugs and then

shove my penis in her rectum either.

Those are undisputed facts, btw. He was legally guilty of statutory rape, and it would be very likely he'd get sent away for what Whoopi would call "rape rape."

[Gwendolyn]

110. Those are absolutely not undisputed facts. Those are her allegations. There was no trial.

He pled to statutory rape only. Your post is basically bullshit.

[geek tragedy]

115. Is there any reason to think she's lying?

Any evidence or testimony?

[Gwendolyn]

117. Yes, in fact there is reason to believe she was lying.

Starting with the lack of evidence to prove her allegations.

Then there's the fact that the prosecution was more than happy to drop these most horrible charges in favor of the bland sex with a minor charge. No reason to have done that if the facts were "undisputed," was there.

Too bad they didn't have you on hand to save the day Perry Mason. :)

[geek tragedy]

119. He got a cushy plea deal because he was a celebrity.

Same reason you're leaping to his defense, I would bet.

But, go ahead and call a 13-year old rape victim a liar. Leave Roman aloooonne!

[Gwendolyn]

124. No, actually I don't give much of a shit about this case at all.

Don't care if he dies in prison. But guess you had to change the subject and make it about me, because your posts about the actual case have been nonsense.

And I would bet the reason YOU, like all the other rabid obsessed, are interested in this case is because it's all about Hollywood and a film director who made movies about sex. If he were a truck driver or a nobody office worker, no one would have given a crap if he went on the lam for a statutory rape charge. No one would've invested the manpower to bring him back, the press wouldn't be hounding Geimer, and no one would spend weeks pounding away on message boards expressing over-the-top hate and rage.

Edited to add: He got a "cushy" deal because none of the other charges could be proven. That and the girl and her mother didn't want there to be a trial where a bunch of unsavory details might be exposed to dispute the "undisputed" facts.

[geek tragedy]

126. He wouldn't have been able to escape to France

and avoid justice.

Had he been a truck driver, he would have gotten 20 years behind bars. And if he were black, lordy we're talking life.

[Gwendolyn]

127. There are currently lots of French citizens working in the US in all kinds of professions.

In LA a lot of them seem to prefer the retail business. Should any of them commit a crime, they can sneak out tomorrow, go back to France and enjoy the same deal as Polanski.

Honestly, give it up. This is getting silly.

[closeupready]

137. Everyone who makes a claim without evidence is likely lying?

Or does this just apply to those who accuse crimes of the rich and famous and well-connected with film industry moguls?

[Gwendolyn]

168. No, it applies to everyone who can't prove their allegations.

Sorry, but that's how it works in our society. Unfortunately that sucks for those who are actual victims, but it also protects people from being falsely accused. What if your next door neighbor accused you of rape after you spent an afternoon visiting with her? Would you be fine with a long prison sentence, because you know, wisdom holds that anyone who accuses rape is "most likely telling the truth?" I doubt it.

[closeupready]

171. Did he plead guilty to having sex with a 13-year-old girl against her will?

??

[Gwendolyn]

175. He pled guilty to having sex with a minor. Did you not read any of the news reports?

The principals in the Newsom/Christian rape/torture/murder trials are being sentenced right now. Guess what? While they were all there, and they're probably ALL guilty of each disgusting act, not all of them were charged for all the same crimes. Why? Because not every crime could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt for each defendant. Why is this concept so difficult for you to understand?

[closeupready]

177. Right, so he's an admitted child rapist, right? What more do you need to know?

He admitted to raping a child. I mean, I don't get why you don't get that.

[Gwendolyn]

191. Did you even read this sub-thread?

I initially responded to someone who said he was lucky he only had to plead to the one count. My reply was that there was no way they could prove the rest and that's why the prosecution was more than happy to settle. Is there proof that he gave her drugs? No. Is there proof that he anally raped her? No. Is there proof that any of the story went down as she said it did? No. All that is provable is statutory rape.

That is all. You should actually *read* before you interrupt and make judgment calls.

[Raster]

112. Actually those AREN'T "undisputed facts." There was NO hospital report.

And the "drug" that was used was provided by the "victim" herself.

And no, I am not advocating rape or dismissing Polanski's supposed actions. I am saying the "facts" in this case were stretched and thin.

[geek tragedy]

114. They were never disputed.

The testimony of a rape victim--and she is a rape victim regardless of the surrounding details--is entitled to a presumption of honesty.

[Raster]

116. Not necessarily. I grew up with a young Latino boy that had a sexual relationship with...

a young, white, mormon girl. She got caught by her sternly disapproving parents. The sex was consensual. He finished his teen years in reform school for raping a girl he NEVER RAPED.

Rape--of anyone, male or female, young or old--is a terrible crime, and a crime of power, not passion. Power. Rape should never be tolerated nor condoned. However neither should false or trumped up charges of rape, which can destroy a life just as surely as an actual rape.

[geek tragedy]

120. Is there any reason to think this young girl was lying?

Any reason at all?

Or should we believe the predatory pervert who fled the jurisdiction and then proceeded to fuck a 15 year old?

[Raster]

121. See post no. 117.

[geek tragedy]

122. There was no reason listed there to distrust her.

No motive, nothing to contradict her story. Nada.

Some people just never want to believe the victim.

[Raster]

123. You're right. Nothing but NO EVIDENCE. NO HOSPITAL REPORT.

NO CORROBORATING EVIDENCE. NO EYE WITNESSES. NO EVIDENCE. NOTHING.

[geek tragedy]

125. The victim's testimony is very often

proof that it was against her will.

And when they come forward, people like you assume they're lying, despite the fact that only 3% of rape claims are fabricated.

[Gwendolyn]

129. Unfortunately there's this thing called burden of proof.

And another called reasonable doubt.

It would be nice if we could dispense with these formalities and just take the word of every accuser. It would certainly save a lot of time and money.

But that's just the way it is. We don't like to put people in prison unless we're sure they're guilty. Sux doesn't it?

[closeupready]

138. You're not getting a role in Polanski's next film, no matter how hard you defend him.

Sorry. ;)

[Gwendolyn]

169. And luckily for you, people like me would defend your right to a fair trial...

no matter how ridiculous your posts are. ;-)

[closeupready]

172. I can respect that you are trying to be 'fair.'

:hi: :)

[Raster]

131. A victim's testimony is just that: testimony. Testimony is NEVER considered proof

without corroborating evidence. NEVER. There was none in this situation. There was no physical evidence of any shape, form or fashion.

And please, I am not a Polanski fan, a rape lover or a victim hater. I do believe, however, that EVIDENCE is required to prove guilt. Uncorroborated testimony-however convincing-is not proof, it's just testimony. Sorry.

And your comment: "...people like you..." You don't know me or who I am. So, just a tad over the top, eh?

Do you have a link to VALID, VERIFIABLE INFORMATION bout the "3%" claim?

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raster]

192. And I see we have a "the bitches lie about it all the time' person spouting the usual crap.

How fucking dare you. I said no such thing.

In this country, in this legal system, there is the "burden of proof," and the assumption of innocence. And you can accuse all kinds of persons of all kinds of things, but without evidence of any kind, it is NOT PROOF. It is just one person's accusation.

[geek tragedy]

193. Victim testimony is evidence, genius.

You can't prove with physical evidence that a woman said no. The only evidence is testimony from the victim and the perp.

The element of intercourse/sexual interaction can be shown with physical evidence, but the lack of consent is dependent upon victim testimony.

[trumad]

41. My respect for Vidal has just lowered considerably

Old Senile Douchebag.

[Cleita]

43. I've noticed that a lot of men become really insensitive towards

sex crimes like this, even the ones who are liberal and egalitarian otherwise. I'm hoping he didn't say this or that it was taken out of context. It doesn't seem like him unless he is becoming senile. Considering the link is to a right wing douche bag publication, I think it's suspect.

[Gwendolyn]

48. The whole convo about Polanski is disjointed and makes little sense.

It says the interview is "condensed" so who knows how it's been patched together. It's no secret though, that this Polanski story had a totally different spin 25 years ago and as he says he was right there as it unfolded, so obviously his opinion is colored by personal experience.

[Echo In Light]

63. Those facts are secondary, expendable, given the need to hate a critic of our 2 party system!

[MattBaggins]

65. He called a 13 year old child a whore

I find that offensive. Don't give a rats ass what that has to do with his views on our political system. I am disgusted at his dismissive view of a child who was drugged and raped.

[Echo In Light]

69. As do I, yet I can't deny he's had a relation to that era I have not, and am not compelled to....

... advocate that, all of sudden, b/c of that one remark, Gore Vidal is the antichrist.

I realize this subject is a 110% dead-ender so far as debating it goes ... which, did DU really need yet another re-re-re-hashing of this? No common ground is ever reached, with those who basically see it as a remote, ugly incident that hasn't any substantive bearing on 'now' versus those who, being so emotionally charged over the idea, will crusade tirelessly, repeatedly on the matter.

[Gwendolyn]

75. You said it. That's basically it in a nutshell for me as well. n/t

[backwoodsbob]

92. yep..he called a 13 year old rape victim a whore

If he said it in front of me he would be scheduling his dental work right now

[proteus_lives]

42. Any respect I had for Vidal is gone.

Put him in a home, he has nothing left to say.

[BreweryYardRat]

56. Yah.

Schmuck. He ought to kill himself and do everyone else a favor.

[proteus_lives]

60. After the comments he made, I have a hard time disagreeing with you.

[Dr. Strange]

80. Hmmm...

http://www.amazon.com/Messiah-Penguin-Twentieth-Century-Classics-Vidal/dp/0141180390

[undeterred]

46. Old asshole.

[TwilightGardener]

47. I thought he was full of shit before...now I know he's a sick fuck who

thinks it's OK to molest a child.

[jenniferj]

50. I also thought he was an utter arsehole,,,

now I know he is.....

[JonQ]

55. I think it would be a stretch to call any 13 year old a hooker

at that age you can't legally/ethically choose to be a sex worker. Not that she was, but in general a "13 year old hooker" doesn't exist, a 13 year old rape victim certainly can (and does).

After 18, whatever, under (and especially that close to puberty) sorry that doesn't fly.

And even if we were to accept that she was (obviously not the case), drugging her and having sex without consent is still rape.

Yes Mr. Vidal, you can rape prostitutes.

[depakid]

66. Typical Vidal- anyone surprised or appalled doesn't know much about the guy

He has a long history of outrageous statements.

[JonQ]

67. But this one is pretty out there

There are few crimes worse than drugging and raping a child. And he's attempting to put the blame on the victim.

That's pretty fucked up.

[Raster]

113. You don't know. There was no hospital report. There was no evidence presented.

And quite frankly, you don't know that the young lady wasn't a 13-year old hooker. And trust me, they do exist.
And the "drug" used to "drug" the "victim" was provided BY THE VICTIM.

[JonQ]

190. Wow, I have rarely seen such willful ignorance

educate yourself:

According to Geimer's testimony, Polanski had asked Geimer's mother (a television actress and model) if he could photograph the girl as part of his work for the French edition of Vogue,<4> which Polanski had been invited to guest-edit. Her mother allowed a private photo shoot. Geimer felt uncomfortable during the first session, in which Polanski asked to photograph her topless, and initially did not wish to take part in a second, but nevertheless agreed to another shoot. This took place on March 10, 1977, at the home of actor Jack Nicholson in the Mulholland area of Los Angeles. At the time of the alleged acts, Nicholson was on a ski trip in Colorado, and his live-in girlfriend Angelica Huston was not at the house. "We did photos with me drinking champagne," Geimer says. "Toward the end it got a little scary, and I realized he had other intentions and I knew I was not where I should be. I just didn't quite know how to get myself out of there."<5> She recalled that she began to feel uncomfortable after he asked her to lie down on a bed, and described how she attempted to resist. "I said, 'No, no. I don't want to go in there. No, I don't want to do this. No!', and then I didn't know what else to do," she stated, adding: "We were alone and I didn’t know what else would happen if I made a scene. So I was just scared, and after giving some resistance, I figured well, I guess I’ll get to come home after this".<6>

Geimer testified that Polanski gave her a combination of champagne and quaaludes,<7> a sedative drug, and "despite her protests, he performed oral sex, intercourse and sodomy on her",<8><9> each time after being told 'no' and being asked to stop.<10><11><12><13>

Although Geimer has insisted that the sex was non-consensual, Polanski has disagreed about this.<14><15> Describing the event in his autobiography, Polanski stated that he did not drug Geimer, that she "wasn't unresponsive", and that she did not respond negatively when he inquired as to whether or not she was enjoying what he was doing.<16>

Hoping to protect Geimer from a trial, her attorney offered Polanski a plea bargain.<14> Polanski accepted, and, under the terms of the agreement, five of the initial six charges were dismissed. Instead, Polanski pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of engaging in unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor, a charge which is synonymous under Californian law with statutory rape.<17><18>

-------------------------

THe only person claiming it wasn't rape and drugs weren't involved was the rapist.

But yeah, all women who get raped are probably hookers, or at the very least were asking for it. :eyes:

[Echo In Light]

70. +1

[rollin74]

68. what a sick piece of shit

to say something like that

:mad:

[ismnotwasm]

71. Typical male entitlement

Vidal doesn't question the demand for young hookers, no, just the supply. He doesn't turn that acerbic wit toward a gendered and heterosexist system that demands that males have sexual access to females at all times, a system that tells men it's their nature to desire that access, their nature to act on that desire, a system that puts rape and sex together as one thing, interchangeable.

He could you know, he could challenge whatever he wanted to, he has an incredible background. He sounds bitter and tired and I believe him, he doesn't give a fuck.

An excellent example of patriarchy at it's destructive best.

[seabeyond]

74. good post. i which this would actually be read, and then, further, thought

about.

wouldnt that be grand

yes, to what you say

[redqueen]

95. +1... don't understand why anyone would distract from this. (nt)

[depakid]

130. Err.. Gore Vidal is gay

[redqueen]

158. And? (nt)

[closeupready]

185. So am I.

So what? He's also an American. A male. A blue blood. A Protestant.

[ismnotwasm]

187. Oh dear

depakid, I don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to remember what happened to the young male prostitutes of the late '70's and early 80's. I lived among them, they protected me when we were all children of the street. I've always considered this a debt of honor.

They died, of mostly of AIDS, but also of violence, of broken hearts. Some of the tricks did as well, no doubt, but most went back to whatever lives they had, many were married men with families.

Male entitlement is male entitlement

[Nye Bevan]

77. I am *so* disgusted with the Hollywood "it wasn't rape-rape" crowd

protecting one of their own on this. No matter that he plied a child with champagne and Qaaludes and anally raped her. Luckovich had a good take on this:

[geek tragedy]

78. Vidal loved Tim McVeigh but hates rape victims.

What an awful human being. Worse than Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter's love child.

[Dorian Gray]

82. Gore Vidal

is an ass.

There are no words......

[rvablue]

86. What a useless, irrelevant old pig. n/t

[Ignis]

89. Stay classy, Gore! (nt)

[debbierlus]

94. Fuck you, Mr. Vidal.

13 year old KID who ended up being raped, and this is the kind of arrogant, condescending tripe that you spew.

Fuck off.

Keep up your intellectual masturbation and condemnation of the world while doing nothing to transform it...

Your ego needs a major check. This comment makes it clear that we shouldn't give a fuck what you think.

Sexist pig.

[Jennicut]

96. Lovely. So a 13 year old who was raped is now a "hooker".

Last time I read up on this story, she wasn't hooking. And hookers can't be rape victims? Sexist old pig. He was always full of himself...

[girl gone mad]

97. Well, Mr. Vidal, I won't sit and weep every time an over-rated old creep makes ignorant comments.

We're even.

[daedalus_dude]

98. Bottom line for me: Hollywood thinks its above the law.

Time we dismantle it and feed it to the poor.

[Odin2005]

105. Vidal can go eat shit and die.

:puke:

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

106. What an asswipe

:spank:

[PM Martin]

108. Strange how Hollywood suddenly is against

punishing criminals when it is one of their own.

Per Hollywood's instructions:
George W. Bush starts and ILLEGAL WAR = GUILTY
Roman Polanski commits RAPE = INNOCENT

:wtf:

Hollywood = Overpaid, underworked scum!

[closeupready]

170. they all think if he gets off, he'll call on them with a part in his next film, lol.

I mean, this is the industry that coined the term 'casting couch,' innit?

[Dreamer Tatum]

179. Sophisticated artists can't be concerned with piddling laws that punish child rapists, you know nt

[anonymous171]

188. Hollywood has been out of touch with America for a very long time

I realized this when they let Bush get elected in 2004 without so much as wimper, then in 2007 started releasing all of those anti-war films like "Lions of Lambs" and "Rendition." They are never there when it counts and are just as invested in the status quo as Wall Street.

[Danger Mouse]

118. "An old asshole feels the need to regale us with his sexist idiocy."

-Danger Mouse, on Mr. Vidal, in some circles known as 'Mr. Pig'

[Raster]

132. You have cherry-picked one comment out of several Vidal made:

In September, director Roman Polanski was arrested in Switzerland for leaving the U.S. in 1978 before being sentenced to prison for raping a 13-year-old girl at Jack Nicholson’s house in Hollywood. During the time of the original incident, you were working in the industry, and you and Polanski had a common friend in theater critic and producer Kenneth Tynan. So what’s your take on Polanski, this many years later?

I really don’t give a fuck. Look, am I going to sit and weep every time a young hooker feels as though she’s been taken advantage of?

I’ve certainly never heard that take on the story before.

First, I was in the middle of all that. Back then, we all were. Everybody knew everybody else. There was a totally different story at the time that doesn’t resemble anything that we’re now being told.

What do you mean?

The media can’t get anything straight. Plus, there’s usually an anti-Semitic and anti-fag thing going on with the press – lots of crazy things. The idea that this girl was in her communion dress, a little angel all in white, being raped by this awful Jew, Polacko – that’s what people were calling him – well, the story is totally different now from what it was then.

One cherry-picked comment taken out of context. Nice. And look at all the boys and girls you've now got frothing at the mouth. You'll go far.

[daedalus_dude]

136. Ah. So basically what he said was:

"She was hanging out and partying in hollywood so she was fair game. Everyone who disagrees is an anti-semite and hates gays."

[Raster]

141. No, he didn't. You did.

[Dr. Strange]

146. Out of context?

I read the context too, and he still comes off like a rape apologist. That's not because of the OP. It's because Vidal really doesn't think that it's rape.

[seabeyond]

147. and do you know, per this poster, she wasnt a virgin so she COULD HAVE BEEN A HOOKER. nt

[Raster]

148. I did not say that. You did.

You are making things up.

[seabeyond]

151. post 143. she had sex ... SHE MAY HAVE BEEN A HOOKER. own it.... nt

[Raster]

153. And I said NOTHING about "not being a virgin" thus hooker.

Own that. You're inflating to support your indignation.

[seabeyond]

156. right. you say she was sexually active, could be a hooker. thanks for clarification

fuck

[Dr. Strange]

150. Well, that's really misses the important point.

Polanski was an excellent director, and his art informs his life. So, you know, it can't really be rape. I mean, not "rape rape."

[seabeyond]

154. not only that, if a GIRL is nto a virgin, she could be a hooker.... of course not rape rape. her

fault for enticing and what, .... chargin him. is that now the claim. he gave her money.

[closeupready]

183. Right. It's 'faux rape.'

n/t

[Regret My New Name]

195. The "context" doesn't change much...

He's still talking about a 13 year old girl... Also, whether or not they themselves found it acceptable back then isn't of any relevance.

[DainBramaged]

140. Hmmmm does he drink soda??????

[Mari333]

157. shit. Vidal has become doddering and antiquated. I read everything he ever wrote

but he is now officially a doddering old fool with this remark.

[Uzybone]

161. "I have always been pro African American"?

"And I've always been very pro-African-American - or whatever phrase we now use. I was curious to see what would happen when their time came."

Fuck that old bag of shit. How condescending is that comment?

[Hello_Kitty]

174. I just read the interview and it appears that Vidal has turned into Lynn Samuels. eom

[closeupready]

176. If he is this demented, were all of his other writings mere ramblings of a mad man, as well?

??

[Echo In Light]

180. No doubt some desperately hope so, and WANT it to be so!

[closeupready]

182. I want blood! I want guts! I want vengeance! I want bombs! I want war!

I want violence! :sarcasm: :eyes:

[bunkerbuster1]

186. What's this? Vidal can be kind of a clueless dickhead?

why knock me over with a feather. who knew?

[WI_DEM]

196. just proves a liberal can give a flip dumb ass answer as well as a conservative.