Prostitution, for fun and profit

[ccharles000]

Good news, ladies. You, too, can make millions by charging for sex! And you'll just have a slam-bang, gee-golly splendiferous time doing it, too – at least if you absolutely adore the sort of men who pay for it. Be warned, however: Disliking those men will consign you to the minimum-wage ranks of sex professionals, forever longing for the big bucks you could be earning, had you only an appropriately chipper attitude.

Such is the advice of Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner, of Freakonomics fame. They are back with a new book, Superfreakonomics, and recently they unveiled a bit of it in the form of an excerpt about how to succeed as a prostitute.

Freakonomics, of course, is the science of choosing an appropriately wacky or controversial subject (sumo wrestlers, abortion), applying a little economic analysis to it and coming up with a shocking conclusion that will make people blog about you. In that respect, the how-to-charge-for-sex piece was a no-brainer. Expressing any opinion about prostitution will bring on outrage (and attention) from one corner or another, no matter what your opinion turns out to be. Of course, if you are aiming for maximum impact, it helps to be – as Levitt and Dubner are – really, stunningly, remarkably wrong.

Levitt and Dubner build their piece around a comparison of two prostitutes: Allie, who works from her bedroom and makes between $350 and $500 an hour, depending on the client, and LaSheena, who works on the streets and probably makes about $350 a week, based on statistics (some information – any information – as to LaSheena's specific circumstances and earnings probably would have helped the comparison, but Levitt and Dubner seem, in this instance as in many others, not to have bothered learning about their subject).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/oct/21/superfreakonomics-prostitution-dubner-levitt

[geek tragedy]

1. As the article makes clear, their 'analysis' is inhuman anti-woman garbage

Sheena and Allie are the Goofus and Gallant of sex work, at least in the warped little scenario laid forth in the Superfreakonomics excerpt. Arising, as Levitt and Dubner seem to assume they do, from absolutely no context whatsoever (the fact that Allie is probably white, and that LaSheena is probably not, is never once addressed, for example; neither is the personal history of LaSheena explored in any detail, though we hear about Allie at excruciating length) they are not actual women so much as they are flattened-out, hollow caricatures of Success and Failure. Allie is a good prostitute; she has succeeded. LaSheena is a bad prostitute; she has failed.

What has LaSheena done wrong, you ask? Simple: She doesn't like being a prostitute. "I don't really like men," she is quoted as saying. This is an interesting statement, which the authors fail to follow up. Why doesn't LaSheena like men? Has she been beaten? Has she been raped? Is there a man taking a cut of her money? Was she forced into this job as a child by a man, by a boyfriend she loved, by sheer poverty? And has she seen the ugly side of men too often in this job to trust any?

Hey, here's an interesting thought: Maybe LaSheena doesn't like men because she's trapped in a cycle of poverty, and one of the only ways for her to stay alive is to have sex with men, whether or not she really wants to. Maybe that's enough to make LaSheena dislike men. We'll never know, however, because Dubner and Levitt don't ask. They don't care to humanise her. She's the Goofus in the scenario. Her poverty – which is assumed to be entirely her fault – is only there to provide a counterpoint to Allie's shining example.

[JonQ]

7. Nonsense

if it's like the first one then it is a collection of odd statistical correlations. Statistics aren't meant to be "humane" or to look at the personal level, they are just cold facts.

Simply stating the situation without going in to depth to make the reader sympathize with the individual is not inhuman or anti-woman.

"(the fact that Allie is probably white, and that LaSheena is probably not, is never once addressed, for example"

And had they said Allie is a successful white prostitute and LaSheena is an unsuccessful black prostitute no doubt this person would have called them racists for pointing that out.

[geek tragedy]

12. Because they choose to not look at the reality of it.

They buy the myth that prostitution is a job governed by a meritocracy rather than a system of exploitation and degradation and victimization.

They wallow in their male privilege in writing it--the woman in their analysis aren't human beings, but rather vaginas with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

[vadawg]

15. hate to tell you this, but the point is that if your good at what you do

and you enjoy doing it and make the customer happy then you make more money, its basically explaining the way a business relationship works across the spectrum... its a good example of it in fact..

[geek tragedy]

19. Only if you think prostitution is just another job. It's a means of subsistence

for women who get exploited and degraded by two groups of pigmen--pimps and johns.

[vadawg]

25. yup for the most part but there are women who get involved in the sex business on their own

you do know that dont you...

[JonQ]

35. If I were to point out

That salesmen who claim to enjoy their work generally make more than salesmen who hate their jobs, would I likewise have to do an in depth look in to why that one group does not enjoy their jobs and make the audience cry for them?

Perhaps their parents were murdered by traveling salesmen, perhaps they were coerced in to the line of work by drugs and alcohol. Who knows? Indeed, who cares? If the point is that those who enjoy their work earn more than those who do not then it is unneccessary to discover why they don't like what they do, that is another study unrelated to the original hypothesis.

[girl gone mad]

113. I've met a lot of hookers..

never met one who liked the job. Never a single one.

I've also never met the woman who dreamed of giving blow jobs and taking it up the ass all day when she was a little girl.

Met plenty of people who wanted to go into sales.

This comparison you are making is wholly ignorant.

[JonQ]

129. So that applies only to prostitution?

Everyone else is working at their dream job and couldn't be happier?

There is a reason they entice people to work with money, typically because they wouldn't do it otherwise.

So do hookers love their job? Probably not. Do most office workers love their job? Again, probably not.

But for some reason hating your job only matters if you are a hooker.

[Skittles]

151. put asshats on IGNORE, ggm

[hfojvt]

160. it's a stupid point though

"Golly, all ya gotta do is work at something you enjoy and you'll be rich and happy."

Well, isn't that just so fun. But step one happens to be impossible. For example, I like books. So I have applied for lots of jobs at libraries - and have not gotten even a single interview. Last time I applied for a Library assistant job and got no interview even though I owned a bookstore for 7 years and presumably know something about books.

I enjoy number crunching and have a BA in math and an MA in economics, but I did not get the last finance job I applied for even though it was a job in the city I had worked for (as a janitor) for the last seven years.

Gee, if only I had turned down the janitor job and instead kept looking for something that I love.

I don't get about 98% of the jobs I apply for and it is pretty rare for somebody to be hiring in something that I love to do. What a pity that I don't love cleaning toilets because then I would be totally successful as a janitor.

The job service people used to ask me "What do you want to do?" as if that was relevant. Because what I want to do is things like read books, eat pizza, play video games, and watch supermodels dance in their underwear. Now do you suppose there are any $20 an hour jobs in those areas?

[JonQ]

182. Do you think their study was flawed fundamentally?

Are people who enjoy their job and who interact directly with the customer at a disadvantage over those who hate their job?

I would disagree with that sentiment.

[hfojvt]

194. I said it was pointless

"people who enjoy their job have an advantage over people who hate their job"

So? What is a person supposd to do? Brainwash themselves into loving the job they hate? Because 'find a job you love' is really about as much of an option as 'win the lottery'. In the real world, you take what you can get and look for the lesser of evils.

Secondly it only seems to apply to sales or service jobs where a customer can reward you with commissions or tips. It doesn't mean much in a factory or in retail.

[JonQ]

197. They weren't trying to apply it to other jobs

it doesn't sounds like.

Like you could commission a study that finds pretty people do better in sales than ugly people. Obviously there is only so much you can do about your appearance and it doesn't apply to other areas. But as long as they don't try to apply it where it doesn't fit there is no problem.

Being tall would also probably be correlated with success in basketball, that doesn't mean you could feel free to apply that logic to car repair.

[hfojvt]

161. except that it's often not true

I was pretty good at the factory job and I enjoyed it, not even minding the swing from day shift to night shift that they did every 8 days. I learned every area of packaging from sleever, casepacker, northfield, and palletizer on both the brand new million dollar line and on the old machines. I applied there 4 times (edit: see I forgot to mention that I worked there as a temp for about 3 years until I moved out of state to take a decent job with Citi) and never got past their bogus screening test (a test where they never tell you what your score is, but which people with connections always seem to pass).

Of course, I eventually took revenge on them too.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/12

[JonQ]

26. It is a meritocracy

whichever ones are considered best by the market get the most money.

And they weren't writing some tear jerker novel, they were writing about (from what I gather) statistical correlations.

You have no evidence for your claims about male privilege, hating women, or whatever else.

You're overreacting.

[geek tragedy]

30. And you are pushing anti-woman ignorance.

Thank goodness by sister wound up with someone much better than you.

[JonQ]

47. Yep, you've become hysterical

what exactly is anti-woman about anything I've said?

It appears very much that you set out to be offended, had already made up your mind that you would discover sexism, and then went looking for it.

Prostitution is a job, some people do it unwillingly, some don't. Some make more money, some make less.

[geek tragedy]

50. So, you agree that women who are prostitiutes because they

have no other choice are, in effect, rape victims?

[JonQ]

65. Nope, never said that

some are forced in to it, some aren't.

I'm not sure where you came up with this view of life, but it is wrong.

In places where prostitution is legal people choose it all the time because it is a relatively easy job that pays well. And they seem content enough, or at least enough to stick with it because they aren't being forced in to it.

If you want to end the abuse you should push for it to be legalized.

And if you choose to let someone have sex with you in exchange for some pre-arranged exchange of goods/money I would say that makes the whole "rape" charge difficult to swing.

[Dorian Gray]

171. In places where prostitution is legal

there is still a sex trade, there is still coercion into the industry (via drugs and abuse), and there is still a very many prostitutes who do it because they have little choice.

Of course there are some women who choose to go into the profession for their own reasons, but ignoring the vast levels of abuse and coercion into the industry makes it easier for some to justify their use of the industry. Places like Amsterdam and Nevada, where prostitution is legal, have a slew of problems within the industry. It can be more easily regulated, I suppose, but there certainly is a very seedy underworld going on in Amsterdam's prostitution industry.

http://www.politico.com/click/stories/0910/cross_i_did_coke_at_whcd.html

[27inCali]

128. some women choose to do so

because they have completely rejected the Judeo-Christian view of sex and want to make a shit load of money while they are young and attractive.

do they hate the job? yes. But they love the money.


the drug-addicted street hooker. Yeah, she's a victim.

the real reason why one is successful and one isn't is that one is forced into it and has no escape, and one has made a choice to do so, and can walk away whenever they choose.

[seabeyond]

82. what a sexist ass... become hysterical. if that isnt the age old saying to women to shut up

did you really type... youa re becoming hysterical

what a fuckin ass.... no hysteria involved, just puking with contempt

[JonQ]

86. Hysteria is a word, with a valid definition that is appropriate in this situation

I couldn't think of a better word to express a combination of emotional and irrational.

Some synonyms listed "hilarious, uproarious, laughable, ludicrous" did not really convey the right meaning.


Are you saying it is unacceptable to point out when someone is being irrational if they are a woman? That only men can be considered irrational whereas all women all the time are in control of their emotions? If so I disagree. I think people are generally emotional and irrational and when appropriate I would describe either gender as hysterical.

The origin of the word doesn't really matter today as it is well over 400 years old. You may be surprised that "gay, nice, awful, queer, cool, radical, etc" have also changed over time and their original meanings are no longer relevant in a modern conversation.

[JonQ]

89. And are you following me around?

You've made one comment on this post, only responding to my comment rather than addressing the topic and you seem to have done that on some other threads as well.

[seabeyond]

96. i didnt have need to address op. i did to your sexist overly used word you chose to tell woman to

shut up

pathetic of you, really.....

truly dick shriveling pathetic

[JonQ]

98. Wow, it seems you're the one with issues with the opposite sex

"dick shriveling". Lame.

So you believe hysterical means "woman shut up"?

It doesn't, I suggest you research the subject. I can't be held liable for your poor grasp of the language.

[Gwendolyn]

107. I think geek tragedy is a man.

A woman wouldn't have posted that she was happy her sister didn't end up with someone like the DUer that upset her. She would likely have referenced herself.

But regardless, I agree that hysterical was a good word to describe the acceleration of irrationality.

[Dorian Gray]

172. The word....

hysterical.... has historical significance in regard to women and "medical" diagnoses based upon our reproductive systems. Hence why some women might take offense to the use of hysterical in this instance.

[JonQ]

179. Couple of things

1) that usage died out a while ago. So citing an ancient usage that is no longer relevant and most people don't even know is idiotic. I trust you've never sang "inny meeny miny mo", if you have congrats you are a racist.

2) The person being referenced was male.

3) the word has a definition meaning irrational and overly emotional behavior, which fit the situation perfectly. If you could tell me one word that has that exact same meaning I'm all ears. . .

4) Seabeyond wasn't even really offended. She has some personal vendetta against me and was trying (successfully it seems) to derail the conversation by fragmenting it in to trivial minutia.

[Dorian Gray]

195. I wasn't really offended either

(I rarely get offended on the internet of all places), but I do know some fellow women who really hate being called hysterical if they are upset about something. Regardless of the historical connotations, it can seem like an overly dismissive word in regards to some true reasons for being upset.

Call me hysterical or not. I don't care. Just explaining why someone else might not like it.

See ya.

[tammywammy]

100. So you can't say hysterical to a woman

But you CAN say "dick shriveling pathetic" to a man?

[JonQ]

101. I think she believes there are alot more "code words" than their actually are

hysterical = woman are inferior and shouldn't be allowed to talk in public so shut up and make me a sammich.

Dick shriveling pathetic = I disagree with your opinion, but respect you as a human being and as a member of the opposite sex and would like to offer a counterpoint, respectfully

[seabeyond]

102. it is about the same tammy

hence why i chose it with this particular poster. and if he didnt chose the word to put a woman in her place, i would not have chosen seeing him with a shriveled penis fearful of women.

but good of you NOT to call him out as he pretends he doesnt understand the history of hysteria related to females.

[JonQ]

104. Actually I pointed out its history

and how that is no longer relevant today. Now it is simply a word, one that I use equally for men and women. I trust you still say queer to refer to something out of the ordinary?

I think the only sexist here is you. I rather like women and see them as equals. You seem to have major issues with men, a deep seated hatred and distrust that you should probably look in to.

What happened? A bad breakup, father issues?

[JonQ]

105. Also, what word would you use to refer to someone

that encompasses both overly emotional and irrational if that person happens to be female?

[JonQ]

130. Also, is it still a sexist way of telling a woman to shut up

if it is directed at a man? You made an assumption about gender that seems to be incorrect, and I didn't know or care about the individuals gender.

So are you ready to take back your incorrect attack on my yet or do you still need some time to realize how you were wrong?

[geek tragedy]

122. The sexist assholes are pretty eager to decloak around here.

Now go make him a sandwich!

:hide::hide:

[seabeyond]

124. actually, hubby just made me one.... oh noes!!111!!!! nt

[geek tragedy]

125. I usually make my wife dinner too. nt

[vadawg]

38. its like the guy who kills hookers and strippers because they are unclean or something

he sees himself as a decent man who would never go near strippers or hookers. kinda scarey in a way...

[Hippo_Tron]

81. It's an economic analysis...

What they show is that according to economic theory, women could be making more money as prostitutes and therefore that is what economic theory would expect them to do.

But obviously the reality is that women choose to make less money and not engage in prostitution and that becomes extremely interesting to economists because the market isn't functioning like the theory suggests. Your points are interesting as well because they provide a plausible explanation for why women don't engage in prostitution. If it is indeed a system of exploitation obviously there is a cost involved in that exploitation and women would prefer not to pay that cost even if they make more money.

[JonQ]

88. I imagine that holds true for other professions as well

money is not the only consideration people make when choosing a job. Status and respect also factor highly for some. So it may be better to be a well respected teacher than a garbage man, even if the garbage man makes more money.

[tonysam]

119. Selling your body is not a "profession."

Prostitution is a human rights violation. The biggest, filthiest lie out there is the notion prostitution is a "victimless" crime.

It isn't.

[JonQ]

131. You're right, it's not her body

it belongs to society and as such society should be able to tell her what to do with it.

There are in fact no women who work as prostitutes because they prefer it (for whatever reason) to some other line of work.

Literally every prostitute in the world has been forced against her will in to doing it and is subjected to forcible drug use and rape every single day. Even in countries where it is legal and none of that happens, that is still the case.


Out of curiosity, without bringing jesus in to it (or allah) can you come up with a good reason for intervening in the sex lives of adults? So having sex for money is a "bad" choice and should be banned. What about having sex to get back at an ex? Or because you were bored, or felt bad about yourself, or because you simply enjoy it, or to get pregnant, or peer pressure, or any of the other myriad reasons people have sex and possibly regret it later? At what point is a person free to do what they will with their own body?

[alarimer]

189. A sample of two is hardly statistically valid in any universe.

There are simply too many factors to account for, even with these two people.

[JonQ]

199. If it's at all like their other book

they didn't use a sample of two. The used a much larger sample and picked two people that illustrated the trend. That is more interesting than simply stating numbers.

[ThoughtCriminal]

2. How can anyone question a study...

with two whole data points? Now, let's look at two computer programmers and apply the same analysis - Bill Gates and me. I think the problem is I did not love money as much.

[GreenStormCloud]

3. That isn't news.

Anybody that is steet-wise knows that when men buy sex, they pay more for the woman to put on an act for them. They are buying a fantasy that includes real sex. If the woman can convincingly stroke the john's ego, she makes more money. If all she does is lay there with her legs spread, then she doesn't command as much money.

Just two data points? They chose those two examples because they are representative of the differences. Not because they only had two points.

[Taverner]

6. Exactly

Let me put it this way: One company I worked for had an inside sales department. Their job was to answer phones when people inquired about the product, and sell them what they called for, and upsell if possible.

They picked up a new manager who liked to frequent the CSW's and Strip Clubs. He hired a TON of ex-strippers and ex-hookers. 200% sales increase.

[vadawg]

9. roflmao, from experience the ladies from thart side of the tracks can sell a product...

feckin genius on the managers part......

[Taverner]

10. I know, although I wouldn't attribute it to the manager

He just liked hanging around strippers :evilgrin:

[vadawg]

13. honestly who dosent, some of the stories the gals have are hilarious

and in my experience they are all pretty nice people, apart from one :)

[geek tragedy]

17. Who doesn't like hanging around strippers?

Answer: Decent men.

Sorry you're not one of them.

[vadawg]

20. yeah because strippers are lowlife filth that decent men should never talk to

or look out for, and as for prostitutes no decent man would ever help one of them. Not sure if your for real or not...

[geek tragedy]

28. Strippers aren't lowlife filth.

The guys who hang around strip clubs in their spare time--I wouldn't let them prepare my food.

[Taverner]

34. You sure think they are...

I had a great friend who was a stripper - lived with her in college. Lots of stories, lots of humor.

But I forget, I am not talking with a reasonable person. I am talking with a holier than thou type

[geek tragedy]

41. And I'm talking to someone who thinks that

degrading and exploiting and traumatizing women is perfectly cool, so long as you throw a couple of bucks at her.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

55. Shockingly, many feminists don't believe that the private sector

degradation and exploitation of women is okay.

Larry Flynt and your neighborhood pimps are not progressives.

[vadawg]

74. so what, until those same feminists pay the bills for the girls working the strip clubs

they dont have a say in it do they....

[geek tragedy]

123. Opposing the exploitation of women is a progressive value.

Sorry that you disagree.

[Canuckistanian]

115. "Falwelliban", I like that

And for the record, I agree with you.

I think a distinction should be made between "strippers" and "hookers". They don't always intersect.

And some strippers I've known about are basically feminists who don't mind taking lots of money from people they wouldn't socialize with.

[vadawg]

42. yeah i worked the sex crimes unit for a while got to know a lot of th girls

real nice once you get to know them, kinda reminded me a lot of the girls i grew up with. fucking funny as hell though, and scathing in their humour..

[geek tragedy]

44. And what did you think of their 'customers?'

Charming group of guys, right?

[vadawg]

54. no better no worse than anyone else, a cross section of the population

some sad guys, some fuckwits, some animals, some nice guys, you do realise that strippers and hookers are the same as other women dont you, they attract the same sickos and nice guys that other women do...

[geek tragedy]

59. Prostituted women are NOT a representative

cross-section of society. Levels of drug addiction, psychological trauma, rape incidence, violence incidence, and PTSD far higher than the general population.

[GreenStormCloud]

110. While that is true, the reason for that it that it is illegal.

So they have lots of run-ins with the law. Legalize it, and moderately regulate it with some protections for the women, and most of those problems would go away.

[JonQ]

134. For some reason places that sold alcohol

had much higher incidences of crime and general lowlifes during prohibition than before or after.

Now, while hardly places to take your kids, they are fairly respectable and the liquor store owners generally try to follow the law (and rarely engage in shootings).

I wonder if we can learn anything from that situation and apply it to this one?

[Dorian Gray]

173. Not true

many of those problems exist in places where prostitution is legal. Amsterdam is not the utopia dreamland for prostitutes that people seem to think it is.

[Better Today]

163. Okay, I've read this far, and you are just so far off base. Most of the wives I know

suffer as much or more than any prostitutes or "masseuses" I've ever know, and I was one. Fortunately we never let uptight beotches convince us to feel bad about ourselves or our jobs.

Then I got married, had a couple kids, never felt more trauma, nor more unwanted sex from an unappreciating man, (men paying for it usually seemed to have the decency to appreciate our attention), every wife/mother I knew was on something legal or otherwise, all were fighting extremely low self esteem from both inside and outside the familial group (surprisingly when men want you, it isn't bad for one's self esteem, when they are willing to pay big bucks, it's even better. Can you leave your job and say to yourself that you are beautiful enough, trim enough, sexy enough to entice a man to pay and then smart enough and charming enough to actually pay more than he "needed" to? I doubt it)

Until you've walked in the shoes of prostitutes, I suggest you STFU. You are so off base.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

206. Dude

Are you trying to get a date or something on this site? You seem to be trying real hard in these series of post.

Whatever

Have you ever played sports? If you did, you would know that professional athletes, especially football players give up more of their body to their profession than most strippers do.

[Taverner]

21. Huh? That's an unqualified statement. Care to back that up?

[geek tragedy]

24. Yes, men who like to hang around strippers

are sleazebags. Or dysfunctional losers.

[Taverner]

39. And your evidence is....?

There is literally no difference between you and Donald Wildimon.

You judge too much

But hey, many hypocritical self-obsessed assholes masquerade as liberals - so welcome to THAT club

[geek tragedy]

46. Ooh, hit a sore spot.

So, are you unable to hold down a serious relationship? Or do you hide your little spending habits from your s.o.?

[Taverner]

52. Evidence please

You are making wild accusations without proof or merit
I am more angry at your ignorance than anything, Falwell

[JVS]

31. Jesus hung out with prostitutes.

[geek tragedy]

37. Did Jesus pay for lap dances? nt

[Taverner]

40. Don't bother trying to reason with GT - he/she/it is clearly hung up on Fundy Christian Sex rites

[geek tragedy]

43. No, I just reject the Larry Flynt anti-woman

crap that poses as libertarianism, but in reality is "men are entitled to do as they want with women's bodies."

No doubt you think that a man could rape a prostituted woman and make it all good by tossing a $50 at her.

[vadawg]

48. no because it =s still rape, but if she told him she would play act rape for $50

and he agreed, then paid her then whats the problem....

[Taverner]

51. Larry Flynt is not anti-woman - he's pro capitalism

There is a big difference, but I'm not going to argue with you on that. You're too far convinced of your own superiority to listen

[geek tragedy]

66. LMAO. Feminists DESPISE Larry Flynt

because he's an misogynist piece of shit.

Quite telling that you think pro-capitalism can't be anti-woman.

Spoken like a true Club for Growther.

[bvar22]

112. Larry Flynt has done more for the Democratic Party....

...than YOU ever will.

[geek tragedy]

121. Women have done a lot more for the Democratic party

than have Larry Flynt-style misogynists.

[TorchTheWitch]

68. BULLSHIT

I AM a stripper and if you think no decent men pay us to be with them you're out of your mind. Some of the most decent men I know are long time customers. Any time I need help with something like moving furniture or getting a ride somewhere when my car is out of commission it's more likely that my friends run and hide while there are always a few customers that are happy to help.

Any time this subject comes up here there is ALWAYS some know-nothing making ignorant comments for no other reason than their puritanical belief that consenting adults paying for/receiving money for naked sensual attention is bad.

[vadawg]

69. though i dont think icve ever agreed with you on anything

bravo, i got a lot of time for strippers, you all tend to be real nice people.... please dont lambast me in any other threads thanks....

[TorchTheWitch]

72. only if you deserve it

LOL! ;)

[vadawg]

75. hey i may be the man, but im pretty cool with it, or so my wife thinks

;)

[vadawg]

80. lol i also forgot the we need pictures in this thread :)

[TorchTheWitch]

90. for free?

Come on now honey, you're talking to a stripper.

:rofl:

[vadawg]

95. rofl, capitalism at its finest.

im finished shift now and off for a couple of days, you take care now, look after yourself.....(putting on my popo hat)

[TorchTheWitch]

99. have a nice mini-vacation n/t

[tammywammy]

70. Glad to see you're here

I'm always glad to see your input versus a know-everything-nekkid-women-are-dirty thinkers on this board.

[TorchTheWitch]

78. thank you

It never fails that this garbage alway ALWAYS comes from the people who have absolutely no friggin idea what the hell they're talking about. If I had a single dime from every ignorant dimwhit that's said this same nekkid-women-are-dirty crap I'd never have to work again (although I would anyway because I'll always love the stage and the social atmosphere).

[G_j]

133. gasp..

a voice of reason..

[lightningandsnow]

84. Wow. I guess we all know what you really think about sex workers.

So much for looking out for their well-being, huh?

[EOTE]

186. Is it nice and comfy in your tower?

It looks so shiny and white off in the distance.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

205. Lol

What's wrong with strippers?

[geek tragedy]

16. "Sell a product". Thank you for clarifying what you think

of women--'products' to be sold.

[vadawg]

23. what do you think the ladies working at the company were selling

same thing as the working girls in the clubs and on the street, they are selling a product, yes it may be themselves but in purely business terms it is the product...

[Taverner]

29. Exactly

And what do you think we are doing when we work for a company? Selling our labor for cash.

Anyone who earns a wage or salary has no right to disparage CSW's

[geek tragedy]

49. Sex is not labor.

It is completely different. You choose to pretend differently, because you choose to believe that it's okay to economically exploit desperate women and ejaculate into them.

[Taverner]

57. BULLSHIT!

Sex is labor

To think of it as anything else means you've been paying too much attention to the religious folk

[geek tragedy]

64. It shows you have an inhuman attitude towards sexuality.

Women and their vaginas and their mouths and their anuses are just commodities to be bought and sold.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

103. save your breath

The democratic underground sex trade apologists are beyond reasoning with.

[girl gone mad]

118. Only if you believe that women never enjoy sex.

I think it's kind of sad that we're living in the 21st century and people still think this way.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

127. it probably is labor with him,

I don't think being held in complete contempt is a turn-on for many women.

[Divine Discontent]

158. a huge laborious pain, I'm SURE! that guy is weird to say the least

[Better Today]

165. Then why are you being so contemptible about a woman making her own damn choices

about what she chooses to trade for sex. All women trade sex to some extent even if money isn't the barter medium.

Why do you think their are so many remarks and jokes about women (upright, pure, married women :eyeroll: ) withholding sex till they get what they want from their contemptible husbands????

[vadawg]

60. well i got to say if sex is not hard labour then you are doing it wrong

[tammywammy]

61. It is

The act of it is the labor, and a prostitute sells it as the product.

[lightningandsnow]

83. We pay for people to touch us, like massage therapists.

We pay for people to do all sorts of things for us. But once it crosses the line into sex, it's wrong?

By the way, sex workers tend to be a lot more meticulous about safe sex practices than the general population.

[Taverner]

27. In a capitalist system, all employees are whores

You sell your labor for money, Prostitute n (or Stripper n) sells her body for money.

Are we all bad people? No we're employees

They say high horses are hard to discern reality from - and I agree

[Name removed]

33. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lightningandsnow]

79. Sex work is not selling women. It's selling sexual services.

If I pay for someone to touch me, like a massage therapist, am I buying a massage therapist?

Also, men and trans folks are sex workers too.

[JonQ]

93. Selling the woman would constitute slavery

something that we pretty much cleared up a while back.

They are selling a service. You don't own the woman.

[naaman fletcher]

4. That's one hell of a straw-man argument

"Such is the advice"? Bull shit. They give no such advice. They are simply explaining the economics of prostitution.

You state that Levitt And Dubner are stunningly wrong. What is it they are wrong about?

[vadawg]

5. seems to be that they are saying if your good at what you do (sex)

and you work hard to please the customer (johns) then you will be able to charge more.. kinda makes sense...

[geek tragedy]

8. Yeah, it's those stupid whores' own fault their lives are unhappy.

:sarcasm:

[vadawg]

11. whose fault is it then, certainly not yours or the guys who wrote the book.

its a fact that there ae some people who are perfectly happy in what they do, this simply says that if you are happy at your job and do it well and please the customer with good service you will make more money....

[geek tragedy]

14. Yes, and if you don't like sucking 50 dicks a day you

deserve to be poor.

[vadawg]

18. and if you do enjoy it and your good at it, then you can be rich

its a business model that translates across the experience of mankind...

[geek tragedy]

22. the problem is that very very very very few women

like the idea of fucking 50 ugly fat men per day.

Most do it because they have no choice. The Freakanomics boys don't seem to care about the humanity of the women involved.

[vadawg]

32. neither do you it seems, as you point out you as a decent man would never lower yourself to talk to

strippers....

[geek tragedy]

36. Talk to them, yes. Pay them for sexual gratification?

Nope/

[TorchTheWitch]

87. the vast majority of SC customers aren't paying for gratification

and the biggest spenders would much rather just sit and talk and many times prefer you keep your costume on.

[Skittles]

152. and you know this - how?

[Better Today]

164. I agree they are looking for a sort of connection to someone who is NOT their

wife, nor their mother, nor their daughter. Just someone who will light up and enjoy their company. Ours always started as massages, then developed if it was desired by BOTH of us. Whether my desire equated to "yeah, this guy is pretty cool," or whether my desire was motivated by a bill that needed to be paid was regardless. Furthermore they aren't all ugly fat men, some where quite cute. Others were ugly fat men with hearts of gold no one else would take the time or look past the looks to appreciate.

Right?

[JonQ]

136. I hear there is a wonderful land where such women are not tolerated

are in fact beaten to death with rocks, thus protecting their purity and chastity. This magical land is known as saudi arabia, and they like you have issues with women choosing who they want to have sex with. And in fact they believe that a woman does not have the right to do with her body as she sees fit and instead must be coerced in to behaving appropriately.

As I understand it sex crimes and violence against women don't exist there, they are all happy and free. You might consider a move.

[TorchTheWitch]

85. you think only ugly fat guys buy sex?

Are you kidding? :rofl:

[girl gone mad]

116. In my experience, that's 99% of the clientele.

I get this from living with and around prostitutes. The standard client was old, bald, overweight or otherwise unattractive. Very, very rarely would I see a good looking man soliciting, though I know it happens.

[Hannah Bell]

58. no woman enjoys sucking 50 dicks a day, sorry to disillusion you.

[lightningandsnow]

63. Most sex workers do not have 50 clients a day.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but I have a couple close friends who are sex workers.

[girl gone mad]

117. 2, 5, 10, 50..

it's beside the point. Sucking one stranger's dick a day is far more than enough for most women.

Ask any mother you know if she'd want that life for her daughter. I think there are some things that we as a society have an obligation to strive to eliminate, and prostitution is one of those things.

[JonQ]

190. So now you are crusading on behalf of womens virtue and chastity?

I didn't know they needed your help.

[vadawg]

67. never said they did, jsut saying that if you did you would be rich :)

[JonQ]

53. Because those are literally the only two options

:eyes:

And everyone else in every other line of work does it not because they need the money, but because they have every option in the world available and have chosen their career for the sheer love of it.

Prostitutes are literally the only people who have to do something they don't like to get money.

[lightningandsnow]

62. I know a former sex worker who says she felt more degraded as an underpaid waitress...

than as a sex worker.

How about we step the fuck down and actually listen to sex workers for a change?

[Hannah Bell]

77. and i know one who said different. so what? i know lots of people who defend

their whorish occupations, such as collections agents.

doesn't negate the facts.

[JonQ]

91. Perhaps using "whorish" as an insult is not the best choice

in this particular conversation.

Public shame is probably a big part of why so many sex workers feel unhappy in their line of work. I don't think we need to continue that.

If a woman (or man for that matter) chooses to be a sex worker I really don't see any issue with that. If they are coerced in to it against their will, well that's as wrong as coercing someone to do anything against their will. I don't see trading sex for money as a necessarily evil thing.

[Hannah Bell]

106. words have meanings. whoring = selling sex or principles for money.

if people feel ashamed, maybe there's a reason.

[JonQ]

132. Maybe because assholes tell them they should feel ashamed?

And you know quite well the prefered term is prostitution, whore has negative connotations.

Like saying "if those fags don't like being called fags they should stop acting like it, if they feel ashamed maybe there's a reason".

I'm a little dismayed at the ignorance, hatred and intolerance shown on this thread, with a good dash of puritanism thrown in.

I guess a womans body is hers only when she makes the "right" choices with it, otherwise it belongs to the state.

[Hannah Bell]

138. sorry, there's no comparison between being gay & selling sex for money.

nor is prostitution a "feminist" issue anymore than being a drug dealer or arms merchant or housekeeper is.

much as faux "feminists" would like to make it one.

[JonQ]

139. Why do you believe the state has a compelling reason

to be involved in the voluntary decisions of an adult woman that involves her own body?

So you don't like prostitutes, fine, don't employee one.

But that doesn't mean you get to make their decisions for them.

[Hannah Bell]

140. women can do whatever they want with their bodies. there's no law against having sex with whomever

they wish. men can do the same.

the state doesn't prevent anyone from doing things with their bodies.

it prevents people -- not just women -- from charging.

[JonQ]

142. Ah but that is telling them what they may or may not do with their bodies

And it is unneccessary.

Put aside the primitive judeo-christian mindset developed by iron age goat herders and designed to ensure women only passed on their husbands genes and were unable to cuckold him. And please describe what is so evil about money changing hands following sex?

I assume you think sex is an acceptable endeavor. So what about including money makes it evil?

[Hannah Bell]

143. um, no, it's not. they can have all the sex they want, contrary to the "prudes preventing me from

doing what i want with my body" meme.

nothing prevents anyone from having sex 100 times a day, if they so desire.

they just can't charge for it.

of course, when they don't get to charge for it, they're not really interested in having the sex, are they? because having sex with dozens of strange people every day is unpleasant.

it's all about the benjamins.

[JonQ]

144. Of course it is, it's a business proposition, so what?

I suppose women should likewise be banned from having sex for any reason other than fun? So if it is ever believed a woman used sex to get something she wanted, a nice meal out, jewelry, a car, whatever, that woman should go immediately to jail.

Everyone should have to sign a post-coitus release stating that they only had sex for fun and not for any other reason and they don't seek to benefit in any other way from it.

What a wonderful world you'd have us in.

And you didn't give an answer as to why charging all of a sudden makes it evil.

Also a new question: should pornography, stripping, and nude modelling likewise be banned? They're only doing it for the money after all.

[Hannah Bell]

147. thus you agree, it has nothing to do with sex. it has to do with commerce &

capitalism.

& you agree, most people would not *choose* to have sex with multiple strangers daily if they weren't paid for it.

in fact, most people would *choose* to do something different if they were paid as well. & most people will do lots of anti-social things if they're paid well enough, too.

it's not a "choice" issue, nor a "feminist" one. it's *all* about the money.

[JonQ]

149. Indeed it is a job, and choice

you are telling people they cannot behave in a certain way because you find it icky. The reason they choose to behave a certain way is immaterial.

Most jobs are about the money, wouldn't you say?


You are still clinging desperately to the puritanical belief that if money is involved then it is somehow evil, but you have yet to show how anyone is harmed in the process.

The prostitute wins because she gets money that she wanted, the client wins for obvious reasons, and society somehow manages to not collapse in to ruin. Who are you protecting with these laws? I don't care what your hangups with sex are, but if you could answer me that one question: in no uncertain terms who is harmed by voluntary prostitution?

[Hannah Bell]

153. i'm not *telling* anyone how to behave, nor am i a puritan, despite your attempts to

paint anyone who disagrees with you as some kind of anti-sex freak.

i'm telling you your attempts to portray it as a "civil rights/choice" (my right to do what i like with my body) or "feminist" issue are bullshit. as is your attempt to equate prostitution with being gay.

i detest phony "feminists".


it's about money. money.

[JonQ]

176. So who is harmed?

What are you saving them from?

Why is it being a job somehow make it evil? Do you have the same ire for strippers? What about porno actors? How about women who use sex to get what they want without making an explicit contract (shocking news I'm sure, but it happens)?

[JonQ]

145. Of course it is, it's a business proposition, so what?

I suppose women should likewise be banned from having sex for any reason other than fun? So if it is ever believed a woman used sex to get something she wanted, a nice meal out, jewelry, a car, whatever, that woman should go immediately to jail.

Everyone should have to sign a post-coitus release stating that they only had sex for fun and not for any other reason and they don't seek to benefit in any other way from it.

What a wonderful world you'd have us in.

And you didn't give an answer as to why charging all of a sudden makes it evil.

Also a new question: should pornography, stripping, and nude modelling likewise be banned? They're only doing it for the money after all.

[girl gone mad]

157. You are free to donate a kidney..

but you can't charge for it.

Is that considered a woman's rights issue, too? Teh governments iz controlling our bodies!!1!

[JonQ]

177. I would say that should be your right yeah

of course there is a bit of difference between the two.

[Taverner]

92. I know a many sex workers who got paid very well and liked the business very much

In Thailand they made 4x what men in their 50's working for the government made

Did they feel degraded? No, they felt tired after work

[JonQ]

94. Didn't they know they are supposed to be ashamed of themselves?

Some of our resident prudes should go help them realize how terrible their lives are.

[Hannah Bell]

141. oh, in *thailand*. home of the international drugs & child sex trade.

oh, yes, they *like* it.

no, they like the *money.* so do drug dealers & killers for hire, you want to pimp for those too?

[JonQ]

146. You equate murder with prostitution?

I see.

Who exactly is harmed by prostitution?

[Hannah Bell]

148. the poster stated that thai prostitutes enjoy their work. uh, no, they don't.

they enjoy the *money*. & if you don't know that the thai trade is inexorably tied up with the international drug trade, & thus with murder & violence, you need to get out more.

[JonQ]

150. NEWSFLASH:

most people don't enjoy their jobs, most do it for the money and if that were to disappear they would likely quit. That is not limited to prostitution.

I am sorry if I have destroyed your worldview with that revelation but it needed to be done.

And the trade is tied up with drugs/murder/violence because it is illegal. None of those things naturally accompany prostitution, they are lumped together because they are all on the black market.

You might find this hard to believe but back when liquor was outlawed the entire process of production and distribution was tied up with criminals, and it was surrounded by violence. For some reason when the ban ended so did that association. Amazing huh?

No doubt if you were to ban cheetos they would likewise be found in conjunction with criminals and violence.

How is this complicated for you?

[Hannah Bell]

154. newsflash. most women would prefer to type for four hours than have sex for four hours

if the pay were the same.

the fact is, they *are* illegal, & they *are* bound together, inexorably, & people *are* harmed.

[Better Today]

167. But the pay isn't the same. Clearly women's services are worth more than typing. . .or are you

trying to say they aren't???

[JonQ]

175. She's trying to say that she knows better

what everyone woman on the planet should be doing with her body than they do.

[Better Today]

184. Yep, I caught that. Seems we can only determine our future if it fits in with

someone else's idea of what's acceptable. Screw that, our bodies = our choice.

[JonQ]

174. Good thing they don't get a choice in the matter

and you have already decided their career for them.

What of the women who would rather be a prostitute than work in a mind numbing soul crushing office environment?

Gay marriage is illegal, would you say that's evil as well?

And people are harmed because it is illegal. I suggest you research what went on during prohibition.

[Taverner]

192. I taught HIV prevention in Thailand to CSW for three years

I wasn't exactly a "customer" - I was in the Peace Corps (so you can take your judgmental hat off now buddy)

I had a chance to talk in depth with many of the CSW's, both male and female

They made good money. Even in some of the remote areas, they were able to buy houses whereas the average government worker was still living in a government dormatory.

Yes there's child prostitution, drugs, etc...and they have that here.

I am not "pimping" for the industry but pointing out how you judgmental types just don't get it.

[Better Today]

166. Shit I felt most degraded as a stay at home wife and mother, are you kidding?

[msanthrope]

169. Your kid degraded you more than johns? Wow. What did he/she

do that made you feel so degraded? So degraded that you find the experience of motherhood less pleasurable that coerced sex with strangers?

Your husband degraded you?

That's terrible. I would have thought that your extensive experiences with men would have taught you how to choose better.

Where did you meet him? Was he a john?

I've met plenty of sex workers as clients. I have never, ever, met one that was capable of a functioning, healthy relationship. Not one. What I do meet are women who are hopelessly victimized. They need help, usually drug/alcohol rehab, counseling for recovery from incest/sexual abuse, and skills training.

Occasionally, I meet a prostitute who defends the system. It's never, ever surprising that they aren't making it in any relationship other than servicing a fairly contemptible clientele. So they defend the system, because they ain't gonna make it anywhere else.

Unfortunately, your defense only reinforces and gives cover to the utter degradation of women by men who prefer to use them as objects. Some of these men showed up on this thread--such gallant gentlemen, weren't they?

Has it occurred to you that someone who is willing and able to fake intimacy might not have the psychological wherewithal to have true intimacy? I've never met a prostitute that possessed the skills to be a decent mother or life partner. Abuse and poor upbringing never provided for that.

I pity you. Get help, please, and realize that it is incredibly warped to consider your own child as someone who degrades you.

[Better Today]

170. The lifestyle is more degrading, you work harder and get no pay, almost no thanks, and it never ends

I'm guessing you've never been a mother or a stay-at-home wife. Generally speaking. Sure there are pleasant times, days, but in general, it's shit job with no pay and nearly no recognition nor respect nor appreciation. Everything you do is focusing on others. It isn't just the family, it's other women, it's society at large. Constant demands, workdays of 24/7/365, yeah, it ain't Beaver Cleaver world, that's for damned sure.

[girl gone mad]

156. It's an insult to keep comparing prostitution to other professions.

I can't think of another job that carries these types of statistics:

"Studies in Canada show prostituted women have a life expectancy far below others. No wonder -- among 55 prostituted persons in Portland, 84 percent had been exposed to aggravated assault, on average 103 times a year; 53 percent were sexually tortured on average more than once a week. Often pornography was made of the assaults.

One study of found that 82 percent of the prostituted individuals surveyed had been physically assaulted and 83 percent had been threatened with a deadly weapon. Another study of women in prostitution found that 78 percent of those interviewed were raped an average of 16 times a year by their pimps and another 33 times a year by their johns. All of these facts are underscored by the FBI estimate that after entering into prostitution, the average life expectancy drops to just 7 years."

[Hannah Bell]

162. what? but i was assured no one is harmed but prudes.

[Better Today]

168. Wow, so you think "good women" never experience domestic violence or rape from their

spouses and simply never report it or even admit that's what is was?

Many women in many walks of life have shorter life spans and a variety of violence in their lives. It's unfortunately part of being a women in today's world.

If prostitution wasn't illegal, many of these things wouldn't happen. It isn't the prostitution, it's the criminal/illegal aura around it that provides cover for these problems you discuss. Places where it's legal just don't seem to have the same ratio of problems nor do they jive with your BS.

For example, though they tried and propagandized it turns out that few in legal environments are forced into sex trade.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

[JonQ]

181. They are really not going to want to hear that

[JonQ]

180. Almost as if making it illegal

driving it underground and putting the whole operation in the hands of violent criminals has not made things better for the women involved.

No doubt back alley abortions had some pretty horrible stats going along with them. If we were to use your logic that would call for an even greater ban on them.

Instead we legalized them and that disappeared.

Also, I suggest you read up on prohibition if you think banning a mostly harmless activity in fact leads to fewer crimes being committed.

[lightningandsnow]

56. You know what's awesome? ACTUALLY TALKING TO SEX WORKERS.

Cheeiz. And this goes for both sides. The writer of this piece is doing the exact same thing she claims Levitt and Dubner are doing....not giving a shit about what sex workers actually have to say.

Go to http://www.spreadmagazine.org . It's written by and for sex workers.

[TorchTheWitch]

71. Amen and AMEN!

Thank you. :)

[JonQ]

73. But that is not what they were trying to study

they were just looking at income levels it sounds like. They weren't trying to prove that sex work is a great or horrid industry to get in to.

[tammywammy]

76. Just like they didn't do in their other book either

BTW, I really enjoyed Freakonomics and will be sure to pick up their new book soon too.

[Statistical]

108. Exactly. People try to pile all their personal moral demons onto a book of statistics.

They authors simply take controversial subjects and look at the math behind them.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

They did a good analysis on economics of crack cocaine. It doesn't mean they are pro or anti drug they simply reported the facts (and they aren't pretty for those on the bottom = < minimum wage and higher risk of death than soldiers in Iraq).

[GreenStormCloud]

109. Lots of people, left and right, don't like facts.

Especially if the facts run counter to their emotions.

[girl gone mad]

114. Actually, they've just gotten a whole lot of criticism for making shit up.

Clearly, they are doing much more than just presenting facts. They are also distorting information and faking quotes. In other words, they are known liars.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/eric-pooley-%3Ci%3Efreakonomics-%3Ci%3Eguys-flunk-scienceclimate-change/374170/

Eric Pooley: Freakonomics guys flunk science of climate change

Steven D Levitt and Stephen J Dubner are so good at tweaking conventional wisdom that their first book, Freakonomics, sold 4 million copies. So, when Dubner, an old friend, told me their new book would take on climate change, I was rooting for a breakthrough idea.

No such luck. In “SuperFreakonomics”, their brave new climate thinking turns out to be the same pile of misinformation the sceptic crowd has been peddling for years.

“Obviously, provocation is not last on the list of things we’re trying to do,” Dubner told me the other day. This time, the urge to provoke has driven him and Levitt off the rails and into a contrarian ditch.

Their breezy take on global warming unleashed a barrage of highly-detailed criticism from economists and climate experts, including a scientist who is misrepresented in the book.

Dubner wonders why everyone is so angry. In part, it’s because the book’s blithe remedies — “We could end this debate and be done with it, and move on to problems that are harder to solve,” Levitt told the UK Guardian newspaper — are an insult to the thousands of scientists who have devoted their careers to this crisis.

One of the injured parties is Ken Caldeira, a climate scientist at Stanford University who is quoted (accurately) as saying, “We are being incredibly foolish emitting carbon dioxide.” Then Dubner and Levitt add this astonishing claim: “His research tells him that carbon dioxide is not the right villain in this fight.” (note from ggm- take a look at the sole quote on Caldeira's http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab/">web page)


Oh, and how does this quote from the book relate to the "math" behind a controversial subject??

"Allie's clients "treat her, in many ways, as men are expected to treat their wives but often don't". And Allie, in return, is like the "ideal wife", who "is happy to see you every time you show up at her door. Your favourite music is already playing, and your favourite drink is on ice. She will never ask you to take out the rubbish."

It appears to me that they are editorializing, not analyzing.

[tammywammy]

159. Your link doesn't work.

And here's Levitt's recent article on global warming.

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/the-superfreakonomics-global-warming-fact-quiz/

The SuperFreakonomics Global-Warming Fact Quiz
By STEVEN D. LEVITT
By the time you finish this blog post, you will understand why we differ from our critics in our conclusions.

As we write in SuperFreakonomics, there are many misconceptions about the facts surrounding global warming. Take the following true/false quiz to test your knowledge of the science, economics, and technology of global warming.

-snip-

[JonQ]

137. I think more than anything you can divide people in to two groups on this sort of thing

there are those who have their beliefs but are willing to change them if they can be demonstrated false.
.
And those who have their beliefs and any study that runs counter to them must be wrong and not only that, but evil as well.

And it seems to have nothing to do with politics, as this thread has shown.

[girl gone mad]

155. Wait a second..

isn't that basically what you're doing?

The authors of this book are proven frauds, but you're still regard their editorializing on prostitution as unbiased "facts". I've given you links to government studies that show legalizing prostitution in Europe caused an increase in trafficking, drugs and crime, including crimes against prostitutes, yet I still see you promoting the idea that legalization is a cure-all. Indeed, it does appear that you have a need to believe prostitution is a victimless crime with no further repercussions to the women who engage in this activity or society at large than, say, flipping hamburgers.

[JonQ]

178. Except that they aren't frauds

You just keep saying that over and over again because you want it to be true.

That you believe they are attaching a moral argument to their analysis just shows that you don't understand what they were saying. It's ok, they use a lot of math that can be difficult to follow.

Real question (that I expect an answer to): do you really believe they were trying to make a moral argument about prostitution rather than an economic one?

[tonysam]

120. They aren't "workers." They are prostitutes.

It's not a "profession," it's not a "career," it's not a "job."

[JonQ]

135. Actually it is

career: A chosen pursuit; a profession or occupation.

job: A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession.

profession: An occupation or career


I'm not sure what your hangups are with what other people choose to do with their bodies.

Prepare yourself, I'm about to lay some epic truths on you that may shatter your world (better sit down).

1) people like to have sex, and often times have a hard time getting it.
2) people also like money.
3) some people don't mind trading one for the other.
4) if the implied contract is voluntarily agreed upon and carried out there are no victims and both parties benefit.
5) sex is not evil, and it is not our job to protect the purity and chastity of women. Those days are over.

[aikoaiko]

97. I have to come back to this and read it.

[bvar22]

111. Oh...:(

I thought this was a thread about the Democratic Congress and Health Insurance Lobbyists.
.
.
My bad.
Carry on.

[Statistical]

126. Ouch!

[pipi_k]

183. Whattsamatta...there's no market for MALE prostitutes?

Doesn't seem quite fair...

What guy wouldn't jump at that chance? Get paid big bucks for what they love doing anyway...

[Better Today]

185. Since sex workers are the only ones that actually get paid equally in this nation,

I'm guessing most women, getting paid .70 on the $1. simply can't afford quality male prostitutes and my understanding is (no backup for this, just my understanding) that most male prostitutes are servicing men. They are out there a plenty though. I think that people such as displayed on here though are only concerned with women because we as a nation have always considered it fair game to be judgmental and snotty about women's choices, not men's.

[JonQ]

191. Generally speaking I'd say it's mostly men

who aren't getting the amount of sex they want and are willing to pay for some.

For the most part a woman can have sex when she chooses if she's at least moderately attractive.

[Gwendolyn]

196. Yes. And it's the same kind of double-standard, condescending thinking...

that led many DUers to insist that the Hofstra student couldn't POSSIBLY have engaged in multiple-partner sex, even after she admitted to it. It's insulting to imply that women have no drive or impetus to make their own choices, even if those choices are ill-advised, or might be motivated by financial gain. All "good" women only have sex for love with one ideal person, hopefully a spouse. Other women who live outside that box are all pathetic, brainwashed victims who need to be saved from themselves.

[JonQ]

198. A common theme on this post

seems to be that women are incapable of making decisions concerning their own lives and need to be isolated so they can be watched over and protected from their own actions.

That's progressive, in the sense that saudi arabia is progressive.

[Withywindle]

200. You know what ENRAGES me?

That there are actual sex workers - strippers, prostitutes, etc., posting ON THIS VERY THREAD, as there usually are in these tedious flamefests. They are giving their point of view very clearly. They are obviously educated and intelligent and certainly not submissive or afraid to speak up for themselves.

And the pussy-profit-police just TALK RIGHT OVER THEM as if they aren't here. Fingers in ears, la la la, you don't fit my stereotype so I can't hear you or see you, you aren't real, you're deluded, your point of view doesn't matter. And if they do respond, it's better if they didn't because it's usually maternalistic, paternalistic, and condescending as hell.

Yeah. That's the feminism I signed up for. NOT. :puke:

[woo me with science]

202. Dingdingdingdingdingdingding!

Listen...

[Better Today]

203. +++++++++ 12345678 Right ON!

[JonQ]

188. There is somewhat

but from what I gather it's much smaller than the other way.

[alarimer]

187. Levitt and Dubner have been stunningly wrong about lots of things

That they have done the sort of shoddy, unscientific analysis of this subject does not surprise me in the least.

They are completely wrong about global warming and geo-engineering. They are simply being contrarian.

[ismnotwasm]

193. Prostitution is an economic decision

For some segments of the population no choice at all. While I will always embrace the prostitute, I have a huge problem with the purchasers. Decriminalize prostitution and throw johns in jail.

I also don't make much distinction between call girls, street hookers, strippers or titty barreta's, all are performing acts of prostitution. (All run into the same types of stalker or the inherently violent if they work at it long enough)It's only a matter of degree. Also, For every $500 dollars a shot prostitute, there are thousands of women who perform sex acts for far, far less. Of course these motherfuckers bring up the ones that make bank. These motherfuckers are also not going to talk about the violence every prostitute I ever heard of has had to confront, the street or the penthouse, the illegal and where it's legalized. It is not a safe profession. The why's of this violence have to do with our social sexual system and rape culture.

Prostitution is paid rape.

Purchasers like their sex dirty, whether or not the act bought is considered 'dirty' very few honor the women they buy.

If women had economic equity; if as many men chose prostitution as do women, the picture would be far different. I suspect heterosexist patriarchy wouldn't be the system prostitutes labor under; at the very least I suspect the number prostitutes would be far less
The picture is grim for male prostitutes all well. Every one I knew from the '70's is dead, every single fucking one of those young men and boys are dead; but those were the burning times of HIV and AIDS. I know very few now, just enough to know not much has changed

[woo me with science]

201. Now you are making the victim feminists' heads explode. nt

[Better Today]

204. Victim feminists. . . .the perfect descriptive oxymoron.