The Audacity of Bullshit

[AllentownJake]

It was a cool rainy spring day back in March of 2008. Senator Barack Obama was coming to Allentown to speak at Muhlenberg college and everyone was excited. I had my special "red ticket" which entitled me to a special seat at the event. I had taken the day off of work and invited my friend from Philadelphia to come up. My mother got red tickets too and she got to sit on the risers behind the President and shake his hand. A great day for the AllentownJake family and friends.

I remember the speech. Particularly the part on Healthcare. The Senator trashed the Clinton plan for including mandates and sold what would become to be known as the public option. I knew the plan well. I went door to door and organized a team of volunteers for the Senator. I remember explaining to people why Single Payer now would be too soon. I remember ruthlessly trashing the Clinton plan for the mandates. I remember selling the public option but it wasn't called the public option back than that I can remember. I even recall calling mandates a gift to the insurance industry, it was a talking point of the campaign.

Flash forward to October of 2009. What is in the bill being debated, why mandates? What is the most controversial aspect of the bill that the democratic party and White House communications team can't seem to wrap up their support for or details of, the public option. Mandates the most controversial issue of the primary is the least controversial part of the current bill and the public option the least controversial aspect of the primary (both plans had one) is the most controversial part of the bill.

Oh if Hillary Clinton was still in the Senate, she'd be having a great time with this. She was beat over the head by the President and his army of volunteers myself included over mandates. Good thing she has a nice position at State where she is doing a supurb job. I always respected her, even if I preferred the Senator from Illinois.

Now, I'm getting emails from President Obama asking me to phone in support for a bill, that includes a provision he relentlessly campaigned against as a handout for the insurance industry.

Politics...ain't it fun!

[tyne]

1. What's next?

A thread titled, "Glen Beck made a good point yesterday"?

[AllentownJake]

2. I'm sorry

You don't like the OP. I'm just talking about my experience as a primary volunteer, being told to sell the evil mandates and now a year and half later being told that they are ok.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

218. It is amazing that some of the things Hillary was bashed for in the Primaries are promoted now...

by the same people who bashed her in the Primaries.


:shrug:



Maybe she knew what she was talking about after her EXPERIENCE in the 90's, and she didn't want to lie to voters.

[mkultra]

237. sniper fire

[AllentownJake]

245. I'm an issues guy

and if I was sold that mandates were bad in 2008, I don't see what has changed so much in 2009 to make them good.

I also have an issue with honesty in our society. If mandates were so bad to highlight them in campaign literature, why are they ok now to include them in a bill you are about to sign.

If I did something like that it would be called lying. If a politician does that it is called a political calculation or a re-evaluation.

[no limit]

269. Did Hillary's plan have a public option or did those mandates apply to private insurance or co-ops?

Not trying to pick a fight, Im asking since I dont remember.

[Zhade]

306. TUZLA. She has no problem lying to voters.

NT!

[lonestarnot]

3. Snot rocket!

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

5. Or maybe a thread titled "Why did Obama lie to us voters about health care?"

WE VOTED FOR HIM
WE LIKED HIM
WE TRUSTED HIM

And Jake is right: he's selling us out.

[still_one]

21. The truth is after the nomination was sealed, we had no choice. mccain/palin, much worse

however, that does not mean we should not express our displeasure if we don't agree with our elected representatives. In fact, it is our duty to do so, and hold them accountable

[L0oniX]

38. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

[Hutzpa]

85. Isn't that the Republican mantra

so you're reiterating the republican quote to make a point, nice.

[dana_b]

104. baloney

the progressives have been using that quote for YEARS. The repubs started using it for their teabag protests.

oh- and it's true no matter who uses it. It's quoting Jefferson, not the repubs.

[ZombieHorde]

105. Firstly, we were saying this when Bush was POTUS.

Secondly, you are using a logical fallacy. Arguments should be addressed on their own merits or lack there of.

[AllentownJake]

127. With us or against us was a Bush mantra

So was why do you hate America....though I've seen the same mentality creeping in amongst some on here.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nikki Stone1]

185. Why the profanity?

Sheeple are sheeple.

[Tigress DEM]

159. Democratic dissent is a natural for US. We DEMs are a herd of cats.

You have to really be a leader for us to follow you. If you hesitate and go in the wrong direction, you're going to get dissent.

We treat all politicians the same, really. Just cause we voted someone in doesn't give them a free ride.

Republicans are only dissenting because FAUX tells them it's the right thing to do.
They sure defended VP King Kong and pRez *ush no matter what awful things they did or how they lied. Dissent by talking point isn't really dissent. It's a talking point regurgitated.

[Statistical]

222. While I agree with the quote.... it was never said by Jefferson. Just another misquotation.

[Nikki Stone1]

43. Exactly.

.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

66. Shhhhhhh.... you'll be accused of being "gasp"

an Obama hater!

[HughMoran]

200. The Jake-Stone tag-team carries on...

:eyes:

[Nikki Stone1]

212. We try to shed the light.

But we don't work in concert.

[tekisui]

No, but good strawman!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. ROFLMAO!

:applause:

[AllentownJake]

34. Yes speaking the truth about something that happened is really not good these days

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html

[Nikki Stone1]

45. No kidding.

:(

[Zhade]

307. "Thank God It Passed!"

You stupid, stupid motherfucker. You never learn.

[Zix]

64. Politicians doing what they say they're going to do. That's what next.

and if it isn't...

[cliffordu]

4. Yep - it's crushing that politicians cannot always make a series of statements

and then live up to them for the rest of their lives, disappointing us as bitterly as our parents once did when we figured out they lied about the Easter Bunny, but shit, that 's fucking life.

[AllentownJake]

8. Just an observation

Mandates evil Spring of 2008. Mandates ok Fall of 2009. Are mandates still evil or were they ok to begin with. I'm confused.

[cliffordu]

23. I dunno - If you feel like this about this one issue, how will you EVER

forgive him enough to support him or any other democrat?

Or any other politician, for that matter??

Taxes are mandated. the payments into social security and Medicare are mandated.

Medicare is administered by a private company and yet people just shit over this stance that mandates are coming and a private entity will oversee the public option, or whatever it will be......


I want to see a real signed bill before I throw a fit. Until then, I keep calling and writing. This week it'll be real letters and stamps instead of email.


Your constant howling about what hasn't happened is really wasted energy IMNSHO, but if that's what you need to do, keep at it.

[AllentownJake]

26. LOL

This post is about mandates and how evil they were portrayed in the primary. Whether they are evil or not is another debate. It is a clear show of political opportunism.

Were mandates bad in 2008 or were they ok in 2008 and they were making an issue out of nothing. That is the question.

[cliffordu]

30. I don't know what changed. Maybe twenty Dem senators took him aside

and said "You cannot get dick for a health care bill unless there's mandatory participation..."

And that would have ended it.

It's politics, Jake.


It's funny - Hillary objected vociferously to Obama's foreign policy stances, and yet, here she is administering those very polices.....

I wonder why no one is howling about that. It's because that's the way politics works.

(I for one think she's doing a brilliant job and hope that she retires as one of the best SOS's who've ever lived....)



Obama is going to disappoint us all very deeply at one point or another.

It's the nature of what it takes to be elected in this corporatocracy, and our completely off the hook expectations as to what can really be accomplished by any prez, promises or no.

I want single payer and know there isn't ONE FUCKING ARGUMENT for not having it, yet, here we are fighting for scraps because of the fucking insurance companies and the whores they elected to the congress.

And let's make no mistakes; congress is the real problem, here.

Sixty fucking senators.

[AllentownJake]

31. Just find the whole affair is amusing

I spent 8 weeks at people's doors telling them that Hillary Clinton would be a terrible President because she's going to force people to buy insurance or fine them. It was highlighted on all the literature. It was a talking point in the Phone Banks.

No wonder a majority of Americans really don't have a high opinion of government.

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

124. Once they took single payer off the table, a mandate was crucial

The insurance companies needed to offset the more ill (with pre-existing conditions) with the 18-30 year-olds who don't get sick much. That's the only way a private scheme can work.

It wasn't Congress: remember, Baucus originally was talking about single payer a while back. I think this decision came from the top down; and by the top, I mean Wall Street and the Fed.

[cliffordu]

175. well, since the Prez runs the congress now, you're right. Obama's fault through and through.

[eridani]

261. It's the way single payer works as well, only a HELL of a lot cheaper.

According to the online calculator provided by the Kaiser Fountation1, someone over 60 with a family income in the area of $40,000 be forced to pay $410-$450/month to get only 70% of expenses taken care of with the Basic Plan under HR 3200 (the best of the proposed reform packages). That includes both the allowable age discrimination and the offsetting subsidy. Under the single payer bill HR 676, individuals would all pay $125/adult/month regardless of age, and businesses would have a payroll tax of 8-10% above a certain (negotiable) threshold. (Note that businesses that self-insure generally are paying significantly more than that now). With the $325 savings per month, even someone at this modest income level could afford a choice of many self-financed gold-plated health care extras.

Just how dim-witted does someone have to be in order to prefer a $450/month "premium" to a $125/month "tax"? There are probably a few sociopaths around who would cheerfully pay someone to saw off their dominant hand if the other half of the deal was that someone they hated got both hands sawn off, but how many of them could there actually be?

[sendero]

213. Keep pushing the idea...

.. that Obama has let us down "just once" - when the fact is he has let us down on ALMOST EVERY SINGLE MAJOR ISSUE.

Nobody expects perfection, we just expect SOMETHING. We're getting NOTHING.

[cliffordu]

214. Ah, the land of perfection and unfailing, rigid belief that one man can

bring the country around...

First the new depression, then the real changes
...

[sendero]

300. you are clearly

too stupid to realize just how stupid you are.

[cliffordu]

305. When in doubt or flummoxed call people names

ya got nothing except your 'purity'. Such a waste.

[sendero]

309. I didn't call you a name..

... I made a value judgement about your intelligence. You offer NO REAL DEFENSE of your position, you just blather a bunch of bullshit.

I'm more of a pragmatist than you are, but I can tell when I'm being screwed from four angles, and apparently you are completely oblivious.

I was so elated the night Obama was elected, now I wonder how I could have been so fooled. He is useless.

Here is someone with their finger on reality, why don't you read it five times and see if you can get it...

http://kunstler.com/blog/2009/10/self-jiving-nation.html#more

[cliffordu]

310. Your disappointment in an American politician is golden.

I read Kunstler on a regular basis. Maybe you should read all of his stuff before blaming Obama for not getting you a pony - you know, how you were so fooled and he is useless to you....


In spite of being of limited intelligence and as thrilled with the prez as I am, at least I understand that we are completely fucked as a society and a country until we stop the mindless consumption that allows predatory capitalism to continue unabated.

But you must have missed that part of the million columns that Kunstler has written on that very subject.

The president has so little power when the rubber hits the road that unless Congress rolls over at his every whim, little if anything ever changes strictly as a result of Presidential decree.

Sorry about your disappointment....apparently your pragmatism is as illusory as your belief that the President could save you.

Bummer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

273. "Non-mandatory universal coverage" wasn't evil or benign - it was gibberish. n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. "I want to see a real signed bill before I throw a fit."

This should be pinned to the top of the 3 major forums.

[AllentownJake]

40. When a bill is signed

It is a little late to be throwing a fit isn't it?

[cliffordu]

41. Nope - throwing a fit now is premature....lobbying your local

congressional whore is what needs to happen right now.

[AllentownJake]

42. So back to the OP

are mandates now good?

[cliffordu]

46. Mebbe you should lobby for what you want.

[AllentownJake]

52. Well I'm not sure

because I "trust" Barack Obama and I'm not really sure which Barack Obama to believe right now. Do I believe Spring 2008 Senator Obama who told me mandates would result in a handout for the insurance industry and a punitive tax to me or do I believe Fall 2009 President Obama who says that mandates will help more people get insured.

So fucking hard to decide.

Oh, and all the debate about the public option is a distraction technique to get people not to pay attention to the other shit that is being debated in this bill. The sheeple. :rofl:

[theFrankFactor]

240. I Hear You Jake. I'll Even Raise Ya...

This whole issue has been handled with weakness and a deference to corporations and a the Republican party. We have Congressional Democrats in the majority and THIS is what we get. What's the difference? A Republican MINORITY can kick the living SHIT out of a Democrat anything. Why? Because in truth corporate interests are served first and foremost. All else is irrelevant.

[AllentownJake]

260. Thanks Frank

Love the show.

[AllentownJake]

44. Should I be lobbying congress against mandates

I was told they were an evil handout for 6 months. I'm so confused.

[cliffordu]

47. Maybe you should take a luude and sleep on it.

[ldf]

58. if only they still existed...

:shrug:

[Nikki Stone1]

195. Well, that's constructive

:D

[cliffordu]

196. It always worked for me....

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

206. THAT explains it!

:rofl:

[Zenlitened]

57. Yep. You'd think this would be obvious to one and all.

And yet...

:shrugs:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

94. I understand your point but...

...there is no bill.

Throw the fit, if necessary, when the bill comes out of conference and before it is voted on or signed. Right now- one is just chasing shadows.

[AllentownJake]

99. Well our congress these days has this amazing ability

to take a bill pass it really quickly...than the President signs it the next day.

The lobbying for what is in a bill takes place while the bill is constructed...not when it comes out of the committee that merges bills.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

123. I feel your pain.

[eridani]

262. There are many different proposals, and the mandate sucks in every single one n/t

[cliffordu]

59. Thank you. All the amateur Sturm und Drang around here gets annoying.

[Bluenorthwest]

65. Medicare is administered by what private company?

Name it. Seems you would be able to name it. Name it.

[Ikonoklast]

74. Private contractors for Medicare.

Since the beginning of the Medicare program, CMS has contracted with private companies to operate as intermediaries between the government and medical providers.<5> These contractors are commonly already in the insurance or health care area. Contracted processes include claims and payment processing, call center services, clinician enrollment, and fraud investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare


But HHS, through CMS is the administrator of the program.

I would imagine that any PO would be administered in the same way; private contractors would be used where the government sees efficiencies to gained in certain areas of expertise by having outside contractors perform these duties, instead of in house.

[cliffordu]

188. see #74

named, named named.

[eridani]

263. Who does the paperpushing is irrelevant. Companies who do that for Medicare

--are not allowed to fuck with the premium prices, cut people off, or deny care for profit. No cherry picking or lemon dropping allowed.

[Skittles]

189. YOU KNOW IT JAKE

well, you know it now - I always knew it but it's wonderful to see people wake up

[Nikki Stone1]

9. SIlly clifford. :) Did you have bad parents?

Because this has nothing to do with parents. We hired a guy for a job based on what he said he would do. Obama has done the equivalent here of lying on his resume.

[cliffordu]

13. So: although he's NOT SIGNED ANYTHING, he's lying on his resume.

Fabulous.


:hurts:

Next.

[Nikki Stone1]

17. Past experience and campaign promises are the candidate's resume

Obama's past experience was very thin--many DUers who are no longer here said this at the time. All we had to really go on were his campaign promises. And when he breaks those, there's nothing left.

[cliffordu]

24. You know, you're right

*sob*

[Nikki Stone1]

25. Now go eat your vegetables, clifford.

:)

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. So true.

All we had to really go on were his campaign promises.




That's where Hope was suppose too come into play, I guess. :shrug:

Hope he wasn't BSing just to get elected.

On this VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE, it sure looks that way.

[Nikki Stone1]

73. That's why some of us are upset

And it's not "hate", it's "betrayal."

[hfojvt]

109. Wait a minute. You are complaining about Obama as a progressive

and yet you are seemingly pining for Hillary, who had a much longer resume, and never mind that said resume is littered with instances where she threw progressives under the bus. That's a bit of a paradox, a lefty who pines for Clinton.

[Nikki Stone1]

110. If you're talking to me, I'm not pining for Hillary either. I wanted a REAL progressive.

Obama came across that way which is why I supported him. But his stands are not progressive at all. And no, I don't think Hillary would have been any better. She was more honest about what she was going to do. I didn't agree with mandates when Hillary suggested them and I don't agree with them now.

[saracat]

125. If a voter doesn't have to take seriously the issues a candidate campaigns on,

as they are no more important than the Easter Bunny, it calls into question what reason the voter DID have to vote for that candidate.

[AllentownJake]

128. LOL

I guess we now have American Idol. Which face do you want feeding you bull shit for the next 4 years.

[saracat]

131. And Adam Lambert really won American Idol! I vote for Adam! LOL!

[AllentownJake]

132. I think Adam would make a good person to feed me Bull Shit

at least he can sing, and he has a good sense of humor.

[saracat]

133. exactly my point. I would at least like to be entertained while being fed the BS!

And Adam really has a handle on the bipartisan thing. he has both the gays and straights loving him. Hey even a lot of fundies. I may start a grassroots campiagn. Adam Lambert 2012! And I think he is even a Dem. His parents are.:rofl:

[AllentownJake]

134. If someone is going to be feeding me BS

I want them to be gay and singing it to me. The speeches are nice, but I want to leave a good session of being fed unadulterated shit with a tune in my head.

[Nikki Stone1]

137. This gives me an idea for a horrid Broadway musical.

:wow:

[AllentownJake]

138. Barack the musical?

You could have an evil Rahm Emanuel stopping the hopes of the President and beating him up in a corner to do the wrong thing over and over again.

Play well with the cheerleeding crowd....at least they'd have an explanation for their delusion.

[Nikki Stone1]

139. And at the snack bar...

...;)

[saracat]

140. hey, I'm a producer! I actually could get someone to write this and seriously

it WOULD actually sell. That is what is pathetic. I know everytime I have had a really awful idea for a musical, someone has beaten me to the punch and it has been sucessful. No joke.Barack: The Musical , it is.:evilgrin:

[AllentownJake]

142. You must include a singing Rahm Emmanuel

surrounded by singing lobbyist and piles of money.

[saracat]

146. Absolutely and just for Rahm, his favorite ballet dancers, dancing around the issues.

Actually, there will be a dance solo for Rahm! And then Rahm and Obama will sing an issues duet! Backed up by the lobbysit chorus. The lobbyists will also get to play the part of the rejected lovers as he rejects them during the Debate with Edwards, only to once again embrace them in the second act, as he is elected!
The song will be entitled" I could have never done it without you" catchy , huh?

[AllentownJake]

150. Ha ha ha

Make sure you have him making out with Goldman Sachs

:rofl:

[saracat]

153. Hmm. I think Rahm might be having a secret affair with Goldie.

But Goldie is really interested in Obama because she is a corporate spy sent to infiltrate. I have to work out the details. She may be given the big solo"Don't Cry for Me , Wall Street because I never left you", sort of like "Don't Cry for me ,Argentina." It may be a duet with either Rahm or Obama. We will see how it works out.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

290. Laughing my ass off here with this exchange and brilliant idea for

a show! How about a scene where Arne Duncan (who loves charter schools), convinces a whole town to join one...and it can be a parody of a scene from The Music Man?

[Nikki Stone1]

154. And Geithner needs a tutu

and toe shoes.

[AllentownJake]

155. Fuck that put him a sequin dress with a tiara

I want him to look like a princess.

[saracat]

161. Okay but the song stays" You're the One that I want, oo, oo, oo" !

And he gets to say"Tell me about it, Stud"!

[Nikki Stone1]

193. Oh Lordy...

:wow:

[saracat]

156. And sings "You're the one that I want", ala Grease, to the Banking Interests!

[Nikki Stone1]

163. I'll bet Geithner's a horrible singer.

:rofl:

[saracat]

164. I dunno. He sings"in tune" with the interests of the financial institutions

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

172. Of course the financial institutions are off kilter, sooo

:D

[Zhade]

308. Orahma the Musical.

NT!

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. .

:kick:

[Warpy]

7. It's not under Obama's direct control

Congress has to determine what we get and what we don't get, or haven't you noticed?

That being said, I thought both Obama and Clinton had bad plans. That's why I couldn't support either of them in the primaries.

[AllentownJake]

10. Just an observation on Modern American Politics

You can spend a year talking about how bad something is...than allow it to be in a bill you sign into law.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

11. That's not modern american politics. That's politics full stop.

Unless you have a king.

[AllentownJake]

14. Mandates BAD!!!

OOOO EVIL CLINTON BAD 2008....2009 MANDATES GOOD HOPE! CHANGE!

:rofl:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. I don't know why you are so amused with yourself.

:shrug:

I didn't like Obama's healthcare proposals. I didn't vote for him or Clinton in the IL primary.

[Nikki Stone1]

19. It's all in the framing, Jake. Don't you get it????!!!111

LOL!!!!!

:rofl:

[AllentownJake]

36. The spin is amazing

Seriously how in 2008 were Mandates a scary talking point against Senator Clinton and in 2009 they are perfectly fine in a legislation in 2009. Was he really against mandates in 2008 and has been enlightened to the fact that they are good in 2009 or did he never have a problem with mandates and just needed something to hammer Senator Clinton on :shrug:

[Nikki Stone1]

48. Hillary was just being more honest.

I don't know what that says about the Obama campaign.

[AllentownJake]

50. Maybe

in some hypothetical twisted cheerleader logic, President Obama was staunchly against mandates but than he saw the light on them in 2009.

Of course that goes against the entire 3-D chessmaster meme.

Hmmm I'm going to have to find some twisted form of logic that shows he's not just another ambitious politician and he really cares about me personally.

[Nikki Stone1]

51. Well, you can always blame Rahm.

Accuse him of being a Rasputin.

[AllentownJake]

53. LOL

I guess that is one way to look at, but seeing the President relentlessly pursued Rahm as his chief of staff.

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

54. Did he really?

I didn't realize Obama had gone after him so hard.

[AllentownJake]

55. Rahm said no intially

He wanted to be Speaker of the House which he was in line for and could get after Nancy decided to step down. President Obama wouldn't take no for an answer.

Part of the controversy over Rahm's seat is he was looking for a place holder to sit there till he was done being Chief of Staff so that he could return to the House. Rahm's candidate didn't win.

[Nikki Stone1]

56. So what was Obama really looking for if he wouldn't take no from Rahm?

My guess is that he was the corporatist DLCer that a lot of us thought he was initially.

[AllentownJake]

62. Rahm drew candidate Obama's attention

When TARP was being passed. The initial House Bill failed till Rahm went around whipping votes. Candidate Obama took care of the Caucus in the Senate. President Obama, said "We make a great team"

So there you have it, President Obama chose Rahm Emmanuel because he helped candidate Obama whip votes for TARP, one of the worst and most disastrous pieces of legislation in American history.

[Nikki Stone1]

63. The candidate from Wall Street

sigh.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

68. .......

:rofl:

[saracat]

116. Rahm, the man behind the curtain!

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

117. Hey, saracat. You know Rahm is there pulling the strings

:rofl:

[saracat]

130. But, but many say That Obama is totally in charge. Wait...No. Many say that Rahm is

doing the bad things , but but....the President appointed Rahm and the President is in charge. The buck stops at the oval office. Or does it????? It is really hard to argue both sides of this issue but many try. i hope they are well rewarded as it is a tough job! :rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

135. Yes it is. :)

It's getting hard to excuse what is going on.

[joeycola]

311. Ah--echoes of the Bush-Cheney era. Who is in charge.

[AllentownJake]

126. He was perfect and good and loved us

till he was seduced by that Rahm...:mad:

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

12. Congress was ready to vote down NAFTA until Bill Clinton came in and twisted their arms

Sadly, Clinton got NAFTA passed.

Now, Obama has the opportunity to do some arm twisting on the side of the angels. Where is he?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Way To Back Up Your Header!

What followed underneath was most certainly bullshit.

[AllentownJake]

22. I'm sorry

I have a long memory, especially when I'm knocking on doors repeating things I was told to repeat at a campaign office by some very nice well meaning people.

I also tend to remember speeches I go to when the speaker might be the next President of the United States.

[RufusTFirefly]

20. Two words: Bully pulpit

Those who maintain that it's out of Pres. Obama's control are overlooking this time-honored means of defining policy.

[Nikki Stone1]

27. + 1

:thumbsup:

[iamjoy]

28. So - He Changed His Mind

I like a President who can look at the facts and re-evaluate the situation. It's a refreshing change from the last administration.

Of course, I've always been okay with some sort of mandate - as long as there was a good public option. If you're going to do away with pre-existing condition exclusions, it's not fair to have coverage be optional. After all, you can't buy homeowners insurance after the fire and expect those damages to be covered. I acknowledge it's not fair to force Americans to support private enterprise, either. That's why the three go together - mandate, public option, no PEC exclusions. I think of it like a triangle.

[AllentownJake]

29. America

The only place in the world where you can beat someone over the head about how something is a bad idea for six months than turn around and say, hey that wasn't such a bad idea.

:rofl:

[freddie mertz]

32. A triangle of death, perhaps?

Maybe we should start a fund where the uncritical defenders of this policy raise money to help the poorer victims of this policy buy the mandated, over-priced "insurance" they will be forced to purchase from the health insurance vipers.

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. +1

That's a fine idea! :evilgrin:

[ipaint]

49. Once this perfect, all encompassing, totally inclusive

and absolutely foolproof reform passes there will no longer be victims. Only deadbeats who cost all of us money.

[Nikki Stone1]

208. Oh, you're right! +10,000

It's a PR bonanza.

Crap!

[EFerrari]

61. That sonds very nice and reasonable but the problem is

the facts haven't changed. And "pre-existing condition" is an insurance term which has nothing to do with health care.

But I agree about the triangulation.

[JVS]

71. from right to wrong

[Nikki Stone1]

111. But we didn't.

And he's not even listening to us, to the polls.

[eridani]

264. There is no good public option. It's neither public nor an option

--if it is off limits to 95% of the population. I don't mind being required to pay for health care. I mind being robbed blind at gunpoint to support uselsss shitstains who kill and bankrupt people for profit.

Just how dim-witted does someone have to be in order to prefer a $450/month "premium" to a $125/month "tax" under single payer? You expect me to cheer about Obama getting behind a proposal to rob me of $325 a month?

[AllentownJake]

33. Just to fully back my OP

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html

oh another one!

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN26377678

[iamjoy]

121. I Don't Know How Much It Backs

I don't know how much it backs your OP. I mean, to the point that Obama kind of slimed Clinton on the mandate issue and is now embracing the idea, sure. But Paul Krugman seemed to be leaning toward the idea that mandates were necessary, or at least an important part of the package. I never considered Krugman to be a Conservative, and he sees the value in mandates.

He also put this gem in there:
Now, some might argue that none of this matters, because the legislation presidents actually manage to get enacted often bears little resemblance to their campaign proposals.

But, heck, you're disillusioned and who can blame you? Obama is getting pounded because people are comparing the reality to the message. Maybe I was too cynical at the outset, but I always figured our problems were too bad, too deep for him to easily fix. He's not Harry Potter. But heck, at least he isn't Lord Voldemort either.

[AllentownJake]

129. I have a problem

When someone sells me on an idea, tells me to go knocking on doors for them and attack another person's views and than adopts the other person's views without much explanation.

[iamjoy]

187. Can't Blame You For That (eom)

[Hatchling]

60. kr

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

67. I just responded on another thread about the bait and switch with the mandate

to someone who believes that if we disagree with the President's actions, we're Obama haters. I call that passive aggressive intimidation.

[AllentownJake]

70. Guess where they picked up that little technique

I'll give you a hint...it was what people who religously supported the previous administration said to critisim.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

79. Yep! I was up against that when I posted years ago on AOL

message boards. Same use of intimidation.

[AllentownJake]

83. Same mindset of people

Just because they have decided they are on the left of the political spectrum or personally like this President.

No true person of a progressive or dare I say it liberal would try to shut down debate with a with us or against us attack technique. It is the black and white world of Free Republic where there are good guys and bad guys.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

89. I had a poll last weekend about the ages of the people who

were supporting escalation or opposed to escalation in Afghanistan as I really do believe that some of the rah rah support is due to age and/or political inexperience. My thoughts about Afghanistan held pretty true. The vast majority who were opposed in any age group were baby boomers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6798889

I'm a baby boomer too and have been around the political block so many times, and eloquent words (although lovely to listen to) do zilch for me, but actions count. I would love to set up another poll asking about people's support or disappointment with the President based on their age, but I don't have the stomach for flames.

[AllentownJake]

91. Here is where I come philosophically

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6849095&mesg_id=6849095

I'm 30, I think I've just waken up before other's in my generation have.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

98. Yes, you have woken up earlier by having the experiences you have had.

My eldest son, who's 22 is cynical too. Not as much by experience but a very keen mind and a search for truths. He was the HS debate champion for our state and learned how to look at things from different perspectives. He didn't vote in November because he felt that it didn't matter. That the old boss would be replaced by the new boss. I had the same feelings (supported Edwards because I was too cynical to support Kucinich with heart) and I feel like the child next to my son because when I pulled the lever for Obama, it was a final hope that I might be wrong.
So far, Obama has proven me right about him. My first questioning of him came when he ran against Alan Keyes for Senate. Why didn't the Republicans replace Ryan with a more viable candidate? His vote for Rice in the Foreign Relations Committee was a huge red flag to me. Barbara Boxer gave a brilliant argument that Rice shouldn't be confirmed, and he voted for Rice. His vote for FISA turned my stomach. Then his meteoric rise and with a rise like that, he had to have some powerful people behind him. He told people what they wanted to hear, with eloquence and charisma(and he still does).
I was happy, ecstatic when he won, and it lasted for about a nanosecond. The minute that he selected Rahm for COS I knew we were sold a bill of goods.

It isn't wonderful going through life as a cynic and it is in fact against my true nature and hugs to you because it isn't a pleasant way to live one's life.

[AllentownJake]

100. He's good

He even sold me for a while. I took a look what was actually in the stimulus bill and having a moderate understanding of economics...I knew it wasn't going to be stimulating much. Hand outs for the states to survive their budget crisises, projects that push demand forward on capital purchases, a few enviromental bells and whistles probably as a pay off to campaign supporters who are invested in those industries.

Certainly not the FDR style program to save jobs it was sold as.

After that, anything this guy says or does I question. I don't think he's the anti-christ, but I certainly don't think he's a champion of the people.

[saracat]

136. OMG, I could have written this exact post. Thank you. You put my feelings into words!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

288. I posted something similar to this a few months ago and there were a few

DUers who said the same thing as you did.

:hi:

[Bluenorthwest]

69. Let your yes be yes, your no be no

It gets a bit tiresome hearing about Obama's faith when he wants to mitigate his homophobia with a cross, when he clearly has no respect for the teachings of that faith about the use of words and promises. Let your yes be whatever the hell works to get you what you want! Let your no mean maybe, or even certainly, if it helps you attain a thing desired.
The hypocrisy is chilling considering he lies and also fires people for being gay which ol' Jesus said not a word about. He had a strong line against spin, however.

[JVS]

72. This is why I don't give a shit about HCR. Let the teabaggers drag it down and make it not happen.

I've yet to see evidence that HCR will help anything, and the mandates definitely don't help the situation.

[AllentownJake]

75. It was nice to have an 8 month debate

over nothing....btw while that was going on derivative trading is up 43% and the financial casino re-opened this time being government sponsored....why is it that I can't find employment right now, I forget.

[Nikki Stone1]

76. I think the mandates will actually make it worse--for people

and for Medicare, which I think will eventually be transferred to the same kind of "privatized" system. In the end, it's about taking healthcare out of the Federal budget.

[AllentownJake]

77. You need a democrat to do that

No way the people would tolerate such a thing being done by a Republican administration....kind of like NAFTA.

[Nikki Stone1]

78. Absolutely.

They are counting on liberals not wanting to attack their own.

[AllentownJake]

80. Worked in the past

My football team wears blue, the other football team wears red. Go team Go!

[Nikki Stone1]

82. The problem is that no one is looking at the actual legislation.

Or that China really wants us to get our health crisis solved. Yeah, China. They hold our debt and think the 70 trillion spent on Medicare makes us too unstable for investment.

[FormerDittoHead]

81. K&R. That the White House dismisses us as they do the far right is insulting... n/t

[ProSense]

84. What BS. "Oh if Hillary Clinton was still in the Senate

...she'd be having a great time with this. She was beat over the head by the President and his army of volunteers myself included over mandates. Good thing she has a nice position at State where she is doing a supurb job. I always respected her, even if I preferred the Senator from Illinois."

"Audacity of Bullshit," huh?

What do you think Hillary would be saying? Obama shifted his position on mandates, but he was never fully against them. He had always said that it should affordability, and then mandates.

June 2008:

Obama's plan would only require all children to be covered. Obama would consider an individual mandate for adults once affordable health insurance is available to everyone. To get there, he proposes a national health insurance exchange to help individuals who want to buy private coverage. His plan would also provide federal income-related subsidies to help people buy coverage.

link

June 2009:

I understand the Committees are moving towards a principle of shared responsibility -- making every American responsible for having health insurance coverage, and asking that employers share in the cost. I share the goal of ending lapses and gaps in coverage that make us less healthy and drive up everyone's costs, and I am open to your ideas on shared responsibility. But I believe if we are going to make people responsible for owning health insurance, we must make health care affordable. If we do end up with a system where people are responsible for their own insurance, we need to provide a hardship waiver to exempt Americans who cannot afford it. In addition, while I believe that employers have a responsibility to support health insurance for their employees, small businesses face a number of special challenges in affording health benefits and should be exempted.

link

July 2009:

I feel pretty good that I've been pretty consistent on this. The individual mandate is probably the one area where I basically changed my mind. The more deeply I got into the issue, the more I felt that the dangers of adverse selection justified us creating a system that shares responsibility, as long as we were actually making health insurance affordable and there was a hardship waiver for those who, even with generous subsidies, couldn't afford it. And that remains my position.

I think other than that we've been pretty consistent about how I think we need to approach the problem. And by the way, I in no way want to suggest that cost is more important than coverage. My point has been that those two things go hand in hand. If we can't control costs, then we simply can't afford to expand coverage the way we need to. In turn, if we can expand coverage, that actually gives us some leverage with insurers or pharmaceutical industry or others to do more to help make the health care system more cost-effective.

link

Now consider what Edwards/Hillary had proposed:

The Edwards Mandate

THE EDWARDS MANDATE....Both John Edwards and Hillary Clinton include "individual mandates" in their healthcare plans that require everyone in the country to sign up for coverage. But what if you don't? Today, John Edwards explained how his plan would deal with that:

Later today, John Edwards will announce the specifics of how his mandate works. And they're quite good. Whenever you come into contact with the health care system, or whenever you pay your taxes, you will be asked to provide proof of insurance, presumably a policy number or some similar identifier. If you cannot, you will automatically be enrolled in either a public plan that you qualify for (like Medicaid or S-CHIP) or the cheapest plan offered by his Health Insurance Market. Bills will then get sent out, and if they're not paid, will be collected just like the government collects on student loan debts, or taxes, or anything else, using tools up to and including collection agencies and wage garnishment. (It's notable, here, that Edwards doesn't shy away from saying what his stick will be.)
So at the end of the day, if you don't have health care, your wages will be garnished or your credit will be damaged because a collection agency will see to it that you buy your insurance. You might even go bankrupt! And since it's called a mandate, we'll need a new IRS-like bureaucracy to handle all of this, but it won't be the IRS since a mandate is not a tax, it's just a required fee you pay to a private company.

[AllentownJake]

86. Sarah Palin made it to the party!

He flipped flop on this. Do you want me to mail you some of my primary campaign literature?

[ProSense]

87. Bitterness must be eating away at your common sense.

Garnishing wages after being forced into a plan isn't what Obama is proposing.

[AllentownJake]

88. ROFL

Mandates evil, Mandates bad...door to door, phone call by phone call February, March, and April of 2008. I can even remember seeing him live in person in late March on a cold spring day, really taking it to her over those mandates.

September 2009...mandates aren't bad, they are ok.

:rofl:

Of course if you actually knocked on doors instead of spamming DU in those days you might have remembered that.

BTW Remember Shame on you Barack Obama. It was about NAFTA and Mandates...how are those two issues working out.

[ProSense]

90. Yeah, the audacity of campaigning. He won. You have to live with it

and your regrets.

[AllentownJake]

92. I don't regret him winning

I'm much more pleased with this President than I would a President McCain. A President Clinton would be pulling the same sort of shit...the difference is he said he wasn't like Senator Clinton and he is exactly like her in every sort of way...he just was in the Senate a shorter period of time.

However, I believe in integrity, and when you instruct people to knock on doors with a set of talking points tearing down the ideas of another individual....you better have a damn good reason to turn around and embrace the ideas you instructed others to trash.

Maybe I'm different. I believe in issues and values more than I do politicains or their ambitions.

[ProSense]

93. "I'm much more pleased with this President than I would a President McCain."

Remember, you're talking about the primary.

[AllentownJake]

95. Back to that Primary

Remember when he made himself out to being different than Senator Clinton or President Clinton...he lied. He had less experience and he needed an angle. Hope and Change was that angle.

Great Marketing, I've been marketed to all my life, from the time I could walk.

I'm kind of sick of marketing.

[NashVegas]

301. With All Due Respect

"We told you so."

[saracat]

120. Sounds like the OP did some serious "campaigning" himself. Obama did not win alone.

To listen to some you would think Obama and Obama alone was responsible for "winning".He had lots of help not only from big money, and unions but countless scores of dedicated volunteers like Jake.

[AllentownJake]

122. Why thank you

and I was against mandates in the spring of 2008 and I'm still against them now, and that is one of the reasons I volunteered for the than Senator.

[Nikki Stone1]

183. ProSense can't read very well.

Between your OP and articles she quoted from 2009 (lol!!) she really seems to have literacy issues.

[Nikki Stone1]

182. Prosense Lesson #2: Read the OP. Jake WORKED the campaign.

Silly, silly. :)

[AllentownJake]

184. Jake

and Pro Sense already told me that her spamming DU was more important than me knocking on doors.

Maybe I should have just closed my eyes and basked in his glory instead of listening to the words that came out his mouth in 2008.

[Nikki Stone1]

186. Spamming is much more important than actually being a real activist.

Silly, Jake, don't get you get that. ;)

[QC]

270. Well, being the cause the three-posts-per-day rule

is an accomplishment of a sort, I guess.

[NashVegas]

302. Rim-Shot!

[JNelson6563]

96. Weak dude.

That post had some substance, your reply didn't.

Julie

[AllentownJake]

97. I'll take that into consideration

Of course it is full of quotes from this Summer....In September he said he supported mandates, but Pro already knows that.

[JNelson6563]

101. You'd be taken more seriously

if you'd've posted those September quotes to refute the post you were replying to. It would've been more effective too.

Just sayin'.

Julie--who wishes DU's level of dialog was at least better than what the corporate whore media provides

[AllentownJake]

102. Pro and I really don't converse

We call each other names and don't respond to the content of each other's posts than make accusations.

I've decided to skip the game with that poster and just go to the name calling. It saves frustration.

[ProSense]

103. No, you throw tantrums and resort to name calling when called on your bullshit.

That's your game.

[AllentownJake]

106. Hi

:hi:

So when are we going to get to NAFTA and trade agreements. I have all my primary literature and quotes ready to go for tommorow or Tuesday.

Just wanted to give you a heads up on your google search so you can put something together buddy.

[Nikki Stone1]

114. And your game is to take quotes from 2009 and make it seem like they negate what Obama said

in 2008.

Very slick.

[NashVegas]

303. And You Resort to Smears and PAs When Someone Criticizes Your Object of Affection

[Nikki Stone1]

112. Pro Sense, your link from 2008 (the only one that matters here) is from the American Medical Ass'n

JOURNAL. It's not from a mainstream paper that most of us would read. Nor does it seem to be from a speech he gave to people. It is insider knowledge that the rank and file didn't necessarily have.

I call foul.

[AllentownJake]

115. Un-named sources?

Did Pro just use unamed sources?

[ProSense]

141. Will you accept WaPo

March 2008:

Mr. Obama says the differential would be far smaller; that he would consider an individual mandate if the numbers left uninsured turned out to be too large; and that imposing a mandate at the outset is unwise because enough people will purchase insurance voluntarily if costs can be brought down.

[AllentownJake]

143. Not what the campaign was selling door to door

Not in any of the literature, robo-calls, or phone bank scripts I saw.

[AllentownJake]

145. A TRIGGER

Sounds like he's talking about some sort of trigger on the mandates...now how did that trigger get moved to the public option.


:rofl:

[ProSense]

147. Are you practicing the art of being disingenuous? n/t

[AllentownJake]

148. You spin faster than an ice skater

and your habbit of bolding things is funny.

Here is what you didn't bold

and that imposing a mandate at the outset is unwise because enough people will purchase insurance voluntarily if costs can be brought down.

That I believe is a trigger sir, the same thing that is now being debated for the public option.

At least now I know where the shitty idea came from.

[saracat]

165. I can't believe you directed that remark at someone else! Reminds me of a Monty Python quote:

"You resemble that remark!":rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

149. This article says that Obama only wants mandates for CHILDREN

This first paragraph is what people were actually hearing during the primary:

"THE QUESTION of whether individuals should be required or simply encouraged to obtain health insurance sounds like a minor distinction. But the disagreement between Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama over an individual mandate (she wants one, he doesn't) is worth examining. It represents the central policy difference between two candidates who agree on most other things, and the current argument has implications for health-care debates long after the nomination battle is concluded."

THAT is what was being sold.

Notice that this was ALSO the understanding on DU: Hillary, mandates. Barack, no mandates.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2299240

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4155096
(This one's your thread. You were trying to say why Obama's plan was superior to Hillary's back in Jan 08. Considering Obama's plan is virtually identical to Hillary's plan, and that they both require mandates, this thread should really give you some fist palming action.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3876984

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6364063
Look carefully at this one: It says that "2. There would be no mandate, except for children."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5440722
This one is another one of yours, where you are selling mandates as bad and Obama as good.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4381549


I could go on and on and on here. There are many threads from the primaries that make it clear that Obama wasn't for mandates and that Hillary was. THAT WAS WHAT WAS SOLD.

Now as to the rest of the WaPo article:

" But where Mr. Obama would require only that parents obtain coverage for their children, Ms. Clinton would impose that mandate on everyone. "

I rest my case. And you should go back and check your rhetoric from the primaries.

[AllentownJake]

151. Who rocks the house

Nikki Rocks the House and when Nikki Rocks the House she Rocks it all the way Home

:yourock:

[Nikki Stone1]

157. Well, you're my one fan.

:)

[Nikki Stone1]

158. Well, you're my one fan.

:)

[AllentownJake]

160. If that post was an OP

which it can't be cause it is calling someone out. You'd have a lot more

:rofl:

[Nikki Stone1]

162. LOL!!

:toast:

[saracat]

166. Wow. Someone other than me posted in the Primary! ? I am stunned, I tells ya! Stunned!

Great job!.

[ProSense]

168. Reading comprehension: Individual mandates

Ms. Clinton asserts that without the individual mandate, Mr. Obama's plan would end up leaving out 15 million Americans, about one-third of those currently uninsured. Mr. Obama says the differential would be far smaller; that he would consider an individual mandate if the numbers left uninsured turned out to be too large; and that imposing a mandate at the outset is unwise because enough people will purchase insurance voluntarily if costs can be brought down.

[AllentownJake]

170. Reading comprehension

There is an AND in that sentence.

and that imposing a mandate at the outset is unwise because enough people will purchase insurance voluntarily if costs can be brought down.

[Nikki Stone1]

181. Political literacy: "would consider" buried in the article: the WaPo stayed on message

So did you.

You've been nabbed, sweets. Go back and check some of your old posts for that distinction. :rofl:

[eridani]

265. If he gave a rat's ass about costs, he'd be backing single payer

Just how dim-witted does someone have to be in order to prefer a $450/month "premium" to a $125/month "tax"?

[AllentownJake]

152. Ha ha ha

You are so wrong on this it isn't even funny.

I'd actually somewhat find a way to respect it if you tried the he changed his mind argument.

:rofl:

[LittleBlue]

107. Agreed. Would Pres. Obama have been elected if he had campaigned on a "trigger"?

He wouldn't even have been the nominee campaigning for what he has done.

[AllentownJake]

108. Does what you say in an election matter

or do we vote on personalities. That is a very good question.

[RufusTFirefly]

119. Elections are marketing

Intelligent discourse is discouraged and when it occurs, it's underpublicized

I defy anyone to explain why we don't have single-payer health care in this country without falling into a tautological trap.

We don't have single-payer because the people in power don't want us to.

[saracat]

144. Perfect. Exactly so. Actually, it is also because it is about power and the midterm elections

Obama is doing what he thinks he must to secure the Democratic Majority by safeguarding the bipartisan support of the moderate Dems at the expense of the people.

It is about power, who has it and who keeps it. That is all it has ever been about.

[eridani]

266. If any of the current bills get passed, we very well may get creamed in 2010

Or not. Maybe the Repukes will ramp up the assholism enough to prevent that.

[saracat]

169. Well at least one reply likened campaign issues to believing in the Easter Bunny

so one wonders why they do vote for the candidate.Inquiring minds want to know( before they are outlawed)LOL!

[AllentownJake]

171. When all you have is 3 years in the Senate before a Presidential run

Your campaign promises are all you have as another poster pointed out.

[Nikki Stone1]

118. And that is the point.

Just a lot of deception.

[saracat]

113. K+ R . OMG you will be accused of critical thinking! Don't you know

that is no longer cool and won't make you popular? You could get a slushie in your face( a "Glee" HS reference).no one likes an egg head.:wow:
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain and please forget what you saw and heard. They have no place in our world !:sarcasm:

[waiting for hope]

167. K&R - and how many more

people will have to suffer while they get their panties out of a twist? The time is NOW, if not now, and it will be never.

[HipChick]

173. I kinda wish McCain/Palin had won...

for all the Obama bashing going on,just 9 months in..

[AllentownJake]

176. Straw Man

This is actually about the primary and a position taken during that time frame.

[HipChick]

178. why are people acting like running on something on a campaign

and doing something else once in the WH is new?

[AllentownJake]

179. Forgive me

It isn't new, nowhere in my OP did I suggest that the President had found a new way to fuck with people.

We live in a society of lies. Our politicians lie. Our Religous leaders lie. Our Corporate Overlords lie. However, we live in a society where those who don't have such power are expected to be honest.

Employees are supposed to be honest, Parishoners are supposed to be honest, Citizens are supposed to be honest in their dealings with the government.

So we live in a society where those who have power can lie for their own benefit and those without power have to be honest. It's fucked up. Not saying it is going to change...but when those in power lie...I like to call them out on it.

[Nikki Stone1]

197. Because Obama was supposed to be different.

Everyone on DU said it. They clobbered the hell out of dissenters who said Obama might be a politician like any other, saying anything to get elected. I actually thought there might be some real relief for the poor and the jobless, but this healthcare bill is showing that real relief is not really in sight. Read Naomi Klein's book, Shock Doctrine, and you will see that this is the same pattern being followed all over the world. It creates poverty and corporate control.

[theophilus]

174. Be patient. If Obama does produce good results you might look like a jerk. n/t

[AllentownJake]

177. If something didn't make sense in the primary

and you were told to campaign against it, than you were told a year and a half later to lobby for a bill that is going to include the thing you were told was bad, so bad that it was used in the campaign literature and as a talking point throughout the primary...what would you be thinking.

[Vattel]

190. Your response is out of proportion.

Obama claims that he changed his mind about mandates. So is your bitterness a response to the mere fact that he attacked mandates in the primaries and then later changed his mind? Did he ever promise health care legislation without mandates? I don't know. At least you should provide evidence of a broken promise before you use terms like bullshit to describe the change in the President's stance on mandates.

[ProSense]

191. It doesn't matter. If it wasn't this, it would be some other nonsense. n/t

[AllentownJake]

194. Don't you have a NAFTA homework project to be working on

:evilgrin:

[Nikki Stone1]

199. So have you looked at your old posts from the primary yet?

And realized the difference between then and now?

[AllentownJake]

201. Pro is doing a "job"

Pro doesn't have things like principle or honor. It is her "job" to defend the administrations line and show why it is brilliant and good for you.

Pro has been having diminishing returns.

[Nikki Stone1]

204. Well, she's not being consistent

on the really important stuff.

[Nikki Stone1]

192. Actually, it's not. Mandates are not just a "part" of the healthcare bill

They are what makes it work mathematically. Without individual mandates, there could be no bill. In order to cover everyone and still make a profit, the insurance companies need the healthy 18-30 crowd to buy in. Without that, Congress can't demand that the industry stop rejecting folks based on pre-existing conditions.

To reject "individual mandates" means to have an entirely DIFFERENT kind of health care bill--a public one. That is what mandates mean.

[AllentownJake]

198. It was the only debate over health care in the primary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6853126&mesg_id=6853433

The shame on you Barack Obama moment came out of a mailer on mandates and NAFTA.

I knocked on a lot of doors carrying the company line against the Clinton campaign on this issue, that is why I use the term Bullshit. If I hadn't told people Clinton believes in mandates Obama doesn't I probably would not care as much.

[HughMoran]

202. The bitter dozen posts a day from this character

...are really something to behold - what a waste of good bandwidth.

[AllentownJake]

203. I'm sorry

Do you have an actual argument or are your pom poms getting upset from someone pointing something out.

[HughMoran]

205. Your bitter hateful snark warms the cockles of my heart

I don't think you're a very nice person - sorry to say.

[AllentownJake]

207. Maybe not

However, I do feel bad, when I've trashed another person and distribute literature at stranger doors over an issue only to have the person who asked me do it, adopt the position of the person he was trashing.

I have a problem with our society and honesty. From my persective the only people who are expected to be honest is the citizen class and the political, religous, and business elite class is given a free pass to lie and call it campaign rhetoric, dogma, or marketing.

[HughMoran]

209. You are not the only person who supported Obama

I have been through enough elections to know that we elect a person who we think has positions that better align with our values than the other choices that were offered. This was a no-brainer for me after 8 years of the ignorant hate party in power. But there is one thing I was sure of - I was not electing an automaton robot who would simply implement all of his promises without first looking at all of the information that a President sees. This information is far more extensive than what a candidate (or the general public) sees. It's painfully easy to take a rigid stance on an issue and then trash the politician when they don't live up to the letter of their promises. Please consider that we are dealing with a human being here who, like you and I, reserves the right to change his mind if he believes that his previous position was not well thought-out or perhaps the situation has changed since originally forming his/her position. I do not, nor will I ever believe that Obama is a liar. For you to use such black and white arguments when describing a seemingly good-hearted politician (especially the President) makes me think that perhaps you've lost perspective - I don't know. I just know that you have been a very outspoken negative force on DU of late and I can't say that I find it productive. Do you really think Obama is a bad person? Do you think he's no better than a Republican and that he doesn't ultimately have the best interest of the people in this country at heart? I don't think he's a bad person and I find the "pom-pom" comments wholly offensive. Is it not possible that you will be proven wrong in the long-run? I think you will be proven wrong, but that's just my personal opinion.

[AllentownJake]

211. I'm pissed off

The reason why I campaigned for this guy over the gal was because of Bill. I personally like Bill Clinton but his merger of the democratic party with corporate America has been bad for the party and bad for America.

Now I wasn't expecting miracles here. However we all know insurance companies are leeches on the ass of America. One of the reasons I supported him was because he wasn't going to go and mandate Americans go out and buy their product.

I'm also totally pissed off with the economic advisors he picked. Tim Geithner, Larry Summers? You have to be kidding me. These two boys were two of the biggest fighters for the cause of de-regulation that led to these economic times we are in. These are the guys who are going to be advising the President on Economic matters and regulation? He might as well have kept Hank Paulson as well.

Re-appointing Bernake? The guy was asleep at the wheel for his first term. If that was me at a job...my ass would be fired.

The only positive thing I see on big issues is he's ratcheted down the rhetoric being thrown out at the rest of the world. Things like stem cell research and a polar bear reserve here or there I would have gotten with any democratic President.

Let's face it a ham sandwhich could have won the 2008 election after what George W. Bush did to that party.

[HughMoran]

224. I get pissed off too

But the last time I was in a permanent state of pissed off, I started to have health problems.

Let me restate the obvious - nobody is perfect and nobody knows how to manage everything. Perhaps Obama isn't an economic genius and therefore he's taking the "conservative" approach - I don't know - but I don't automatically assume that Obama is a malicious or stupid person. He may make bad choices from time-to-time, but it's because he's not perfect - a 'human' if you will. I'm rather fond of imperfection - being an imperfect being myself. I think things will turn out OK in the end. If you consider the hand he was dealt (setting many negative records that date back to the Great Depression), I think he's doing quite well. On top of all the economic problems, to be tackling and perhaps winning the healthcare reform argument that's been in limbo for many many years in his first year of office is (I think) going above and beyond what one could/would expect from this fellow in 9 months (yes, it will likely be 11-12 months in before he signs a healthcare bill.)

[AllentownJake]

227. Forgive me

I'm unemployed, have been since July. I don't even know what to pursue at this point. I don't see how the guys that helped to make the mess will come up with the ideas to fix it. Their ideology is what caused the policies to begin with and ideology rarely changes. I read reports of people like Volker being left out of discussions and while he isn't perfect, he's the saner of these three men.

I'm reading reports on what is going on in the credit markets right now, and I don't think it is good.

I'm not asking for perfection...I'm asking for common sense. You can't turn to the same ideology that created a mess to clean it up.

Of course, I'm one of the few posters on here that put a significant portion of the blame on Bill Clinton. No NAFTA, GATT, shutting down regulation of derivatives, and repeal of Glass Steagall...we aren't where we are in 2009 either.

[HughMoran]

235. 3 jobs this year for me as well after 15 years of stability in one job

We're all suffering from the 'laissez-faire' policies of that idiot-moron, George W. Bush. If Obama could turn around the economy in 1 year he would be considered a god, but seriously, that's just not going to happen. Sure, Bill Clinton did some stupid things that I disagreed with (I hated NAFTA & "free" trade & probably lost my long-time job because of it), but just because Obama shares a pragmatic style and desire for bipartisanship, doesn't mean he should be conflated with Bill Clinton. Besides, how different would Hillary have been in this respect? I think anybody with a brain knows that it's not going to be smooth sailing out of this terrible recession (commercial real estate may collapse soon too), but let's face it - this may be the best we've got in this country. I know some would like to use this opportunity to steer the country in a different direction (socialism?), but in my opinion, the 'recovery' would be much longer (if we ever recovered) if we turned our government upside-down at this time. I'd just as soon not have desperation driving policy. Good luck in your job search - I'm hoping to be able to keep my head above water long enough so that I may again have choices - right now I take what I can get.

[Nikki Stone1]

215. Jake is not hateful--he's disappointed

and feels like this wasn't what he voted for.

[AllentownJake]

216. I can be an asshole at times

I'll admit that, however, I think on certain things I have a good reason to be angry and disapointed with what is going on.

[HughMoran]

217. I think Jake does a fine job speaking for himself

Dontcha think?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

219. Yes he does

He is quite perceptive and obviously cares. He is tired of bullshit which is what we are getting. Aren't you?

K&R to the OP.

[Nikki Stone1]

221. +1

:)

[JNelson6563]

297. Recalling my exchange w/you yesterday

I took issue with you for ignoring actual argument from another poster. You assured me it was simply because you and that other particular poster just exchange namecalling and snide remarks. I only saw it from you but said nothing. Now I see you taking issue with someone you feel is ignoring the substance of a post.

Hmmm.

Julie

[AllentownJake]

298. Thanks for being the ref

Do you want a white and black shirt and a whistle

:rofl:

[JNelson6563]

299. Sorry to see this at DU

I'm not alone.

[AllentownJake]

304. I think Hugh Moran and I

Resolved our differences without your interference or commentary which is evidenced by the continued conversartion.

[earth mom]

210. Hope & Change was a slick advertising campaign. Nothing more. nt

[joeycola]

312. yup.

[billh58]

220. I realize that I will

be called a cheerleader, and a despicable Obama-bot for pointing this out, but I can't find one single instance where President Obama has ever backed away from the inclusion of a public health care plan in his proposals for health care reform.

In his 2008 campaign platform concerning health care, he called for both a "new national health plan which will give individuals the choice to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to federal employees," and a "National Health Insurance Exchange," for individuals who want private coverage:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf

As recently as June, 2009, President Obama told a gathering of physicians at an AMA gathering: "The public option is not your enemy, it is your friend, I believe.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/15/obama-public-plan-friend/

And from an article in today's edition of USA Today: "A proposal for government-backed health insurance is close to gaining the 60 votes needed to pass the Senate and probably will be in overhaul legislation, a Senate Democratic leader said Sunday."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-10-25-schumer-health_N.htm

So, I believe that bemoaning the death of the "public option," or President Obama's hand in delivering the fatal blow, may be just a bit premature. I believe that the better question may be, if the Congress fails to include the "public option" in the final delivered bill, should President Obama sign, or veto, it?

[AllentownJake]

223. This post was not about the Public Option

It was about Insurance Mandates.

I'm not really that obsessed with the Public Option. I find it to be a red herring in this debate while other things are being put in the bill.

[billh58]

225. Sorry for that

but I have trouble keeping up with President Obama's short-comings in GD. I apologize, but from your post, I can't tell if you are for, or against, "mandates." From what I can tell, President Obama has changed his stance recently: "President Obama, who had previously opposed an individual mandate for health insurance, has now opened the door to including such a legal requirement as a central feature of health care reform."

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/06/05/obama-appointee-on-health-care-mandates/ (sorry for the source, but it seems to be pretty thorough)

Could you please explain to me what it is about mandates that has everyone so upset?

[AllentownJake]

226. This one was a personal thing that has been nagging at me

for about a month....mandates were campaigned against in the Spring of 2008...now in 2009 they are going to be in the final bill. I was part of that campaign so I don't really know what to think at this point, and am unsure what other issues can be ceded.

[billh58]

230. I guess that the

main reason for my confusion, is that I have lived in Hawaii for all of my adult life, and have always enjoyed State-mandated, employer-provided, health care coverage.

If we are talking about individually-mandated health care coverage, I believe that I've read that those with an income which is below a derived multiple of the "poverty level" will be covered by a government program, and then a sliding-scale income tax rebate will kick in for those above that level. Those with higher incomes will essentially pay for those with lower incomes.

[AllentownJake]

231. I don't believe people should be forced to buy private insurance

Also, a $60,000 a year income buys different amount of stuff in different places.

Someone making $30,000 a year in Indiana probably lives better than someone making $60,000 a year in New York City.

[billh58]

232. Of course you have

just opened up the argument that we pay for the uninsured one way, or another, through higher premiums, shared emergency care costs, lost productivity and taxes due to poor health, higher mortality rates, etc.

I understand your argument, and sympathize with your stance to certain extent. I am not totally in agreement, however, with your analogy about "someone making $30K in Indiana" living better than someone making a higher income in any other part of the country, as that is a subjective opinion on your part.

If we are to have a "public option," for health care, and if the intent is to provide adequate health care for ALL Americans, then I would agree to a well-regulated, and fairly-administered premium mandate.

[AllentownJake]

234. Thank you for being disagreeing

without making accusations.

Your points are well taken, but I don't think taking more money from the people least able to afford it is the answer to this problem.

[billh58]

236. The last I heard,

we Democrats are all in the same league, if not on the same team at all times. I don't for a moment think that we will ever agree on all aspects of the best way to govern this country, and that is a good thing.

We have seen what happens when the Republicans have the opportunity to function as a multi-celled, but single-minded, predatory organism, and it wasn't pretty.

:toast:

[Nikki Stone1]

233. Me neither.

.

[JVS]

228. Well, you seem to be getting positive recs, but scolded vociferously. What gives?

[AllentownJake]

229. Silent Majority

:rofl:

[TheWebHead]

238. a 1+ trillion deficit this year and beyond could make a president...

become at least slightly an economic realist over the thought of adding another entitlement program which wouldn't take effect for multiple years and be used as a rallying cry to bring a frustrated republican base out to the '10 and '12 elections in droves under the promise they'd overturn the public option. I look at this as an economic realist, thinking it would be good to eliminate pre-existing condition denials in exchange for a mandate where people can buy catastrophic coverage with high deductibles within HMOs for affordable prices. It's an incremental change and if we can get budget deficits eliminated in a second Obama term, then the possibility of expanding care can be discussed then.

[AllentownJake]

241. I'd rather leave things the way they are and revisit it later

and I have a pre-existing conditions, than deal with a shitty bill.

This was a major futile battle and wasted political capital before a battle with Wall Street over modest reforms.

[mkultra]

239. wow yes! politics=fluidity

welcome to consciousness, try harder to keep up. If you cant handle the larger constructs of politics, perhaps you should just find someone reliable and do what they say. Unlike conservatives, when the facts change, so do some peoples opinions.

[AllentownJake]

242. So the facts around Healthcare changed significantly

Between 2008 and 2009?

[mkultra]

243. yes they have

specifically, political support, congressional representation, public opinion, and the current "best" solution based on compromise have all moved the debate significantly. You will notice aspects come in and drop out as debate continues. Much like i often explain to my conservative friends, congress is a deliberative body.

[AllentownJake]

244. I understand that

However, are you saying that when the President campaigned against mandates in the Primary it was not a matter of principle it was a matter of political calculation.

Which would go to the point of my OP.

[mkultra]

247. who knows and who cares

if your saying that your upset that an American president has engaged in political strategy (strategery?) then I have no sympathy for your concerns and would again welcome you to planet earth. As with all politicians, policy choice is a combination of principle and political calculation. If your saying that there is another serious candidate somewhere that would move based purely on principle , i would say your off the edge of the map.

[AllentownJake]

249. That is all well and good

So how about we do this in the next election. Scrap the issues and we can just have a personality contests.

Like I said upthread, the next President should be Adam Lambert, because at least he will leave me with a toon in my head when he is selling bullshit.

[mkultra]

252. yes yes , i have heard it from you a million times

yes, you have said Obama is a cult of personality
yes, you said he has no substance
yes, you have claimed you worked for him
yes, you liked Hillary better.

we all get it.

[AllentownJake]

253. I post other things

I had a wonderful discussion the other day about chicken marketing and pumpkin bread.

:rofl:

[mkultra]

254. since it was you, im sure it was REAL progressive bread

and principled chicken marketing.

[AllentownJake]

256. I found it funny

That my Chick was "All Natural" because it doesn't have hormones or steroids of course all chickens bought in the United States don't have hormones or steroids because it is illegal to do that to poultry.

I learned this by reading the Chicken I bought.

The pumpkin bread was a mix because I suck with any kitchen appliance that isn't a grill.

[mkultra]

258. we buy free range chicken and eggs due to cruelty concerns

and i prefer banana bread.

[AllentownJake]

259. I was doing that

however, unemployment means those things are a little bit more pricey.

I just made some banana bread yesterday. It is very good as well.

[ProSense]

246. This thing is going to work.

This thing is going to work.

On the verge of history.

[AllentownJake]

248. Pro

I think you've posted enough on this thread, and that has nothing to do with the OP.

[ProSense]

250. No, I haven't posted enough, and it has everything to do with the OP.

Health care reform works.

[AllentownJake]

251. Now honestly

We can think it will work, we can hope it will work, but there is no way knowing that it will work till it is actually implemented.

A statement like Health care reform works is about as inane as I like puppies.

[ProSense]

255. "We can think it will work, we can hope it will work, but there is no way knowing..." But

Krugman actually has a basis for his opinion. The "audacity of bullshit" simply runs counter to "knowing that it will work till it is actually implemented." Maybe Obama knows what he's doing and your nitpicking about the absoluteness of his position on mandates is irrelevant to the effort to pass real reform?

[AllentownJake]

257. Pro

If you've been following my post outside the realm of what Obama is doing, which you don't comment on, I spend a great deal of time posting about the general dishonesty in modern society.

I'm not a fan of mandates, but the stronger point in the OP is we live in a society where it is ok, to campaign on something, beat another human being across the head for supporting something, than to go ahead and reverse your position and implement something very similar to the thing you beat your opponent up about.

This is symbolism for a larger issue in America. We have a society where those in power routinely engage in behavior with the public that if you and I engaged in, we would be commited, jailed, or branded a liar.

This is bigger than the political realm. It reaches into our business institutions and religous institutions as well.

Do I blame the President for society, no. However, I don't think a society can function too long where people begin to assume that everyone in power is lying to them or hiding something to take advantage of them to get something they want.

[Nikki Stone1]

276. Maybe if you posted more accurate evidence and backed yourself up better.

you might have a leg to stand on. As it is, you just throw shit out there. And all your quoting fools some people into thinking you know actual facts. Of course they don't check to see if your quotes have anything to do with your argument.

[eridani]

268. It is a fucking ripoff that will impoverish a lot of peopel n/t

[TexasObserver]

267. I'm disappointed that the president seems to lack heart or fire.

Caretaker president.

[quiet.american]

271. I'm still so astonished when I read comments like this.

"Caretaker"? Couldn't disagree more.

[TexasObserver]

278. Likewise.

He's nowhere close to being as good as Clinton or LBJ. Closer to Carter. Basically, he's running against Carter for the worst Democratic president in the past 100 years. If you think otherwise, which of these is he better than: Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Carter, Clinton. He's got no chance of being better than any of these except Carter.

[quiet.american]

279. Quite frankly, I'm just not interested in playing this strange game. nt

[TexasObserver]

281. And yet, you had to post one more time.

[quiet.american]

282. So? Last time I looked, it's a free country. :)

Look, that you spend your time and resources constructing premises to prove that Obama will be "the worst Democratic president in 100 years" tells me that you and I are most likely to remain on opposite sides of whether he's fired up enough in his presidency. No need to go back and forth. Neither one of us will be moved. I simply disagree with you.

[TexasObserver]

283. Yes, and that's why I'm dismissing you.

Thanks for sharing. I don't know what I'd do without your posts.

[quiet.american]

284. Oh come on baby, don't be like that! :) nt

[Nikki Stone1]

285. You don't give arguments, dude. No proof, nuthin.

You just shoot your wad and move on.

Anybody can do that. LOL!!!

:rofl:

[quiet.american]

287. Er... not a dude -- and today, it's just more fun to fool around, to tell you the truth.

You can search my name, I've had plenty of back-and-forths -- just not in the mood today. :hi:

[Nikki Stone1]

293. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

[quiet.american]

294. Hey, glad to somebody laughing around here! nt

:hi:

[Nikki Stone1]

295. I try to laugh when I can

:toast:

[quiet.american]

296. Cheers. :) nt

[TexasObserver]

291. You keep saying you're done, but you can't stop yourself, can you?

[quiet.american]

292. Actually, I never said I was 'done' ....

I said I wasn't interested in playing "prove Obama's not the worst Democratic president in 100 years by comparing him to past Democratic presidents."

Do we really have to go to Defcon Level Meany on this?

Despite your post painting Obama as a "worst president," may I assume we're still generally on the same side -- that being the Democratic Party one? I will go ahead and apologize to you for being offensive, if you found me to be so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

272. "Universal" and "optional" were never compatible.

It was audacious bullshit. Effective, audacious bullshit.

[forum slut]

274. It could be worse, he could have cheated on his wife who is dieing of cancer.

Then you would really feel like a dumb ass for supporting him I'll bet.

[JPZenger]

275. We need the healthy people to pay for the sick people

I don't have a problem with the mandate, as long as insurance is affordable for the people who need it. The system will not work financially unless everyone contributes. Otherwise, if there are no limits on pre-existing conditions, everyone will wait until they are sick or pregnant to buy insurance. That is completely unsustainable.

[ipaint]

277. Baloney.

Insurance companies existed before the mid 1980's when they started cherrypicking in huge numbers. They did just fine. No mandate required because the plans were affordable both to individuals and to businesses.

The problem NEVER was abuse of the system by citizens it was the abuse from insurance companies in the pursuit of higher profits that caused this mess. Please quit doing the dirty work for the corporations who are responsible for over a million american deaths in the last 20 years.

[Nikki Stone1]

280. You're wrong here, ipaint.

The reason the mandates are being built in to EVERY healthcare bill is that a privatized system can't work (and make a profit) without them. The math doesn't work, even if you lower insurance company profits. That is why single payer was really the only way to go. Healthcare should be a public trust, not a corporate business.

Nikki, a true progressive

[paulk]

286. it was obvious that Obama's healthcare proposals,

and especially his position on mandates, were nothing more than political opportunism.

But it worked, he was the candidate, and now we have to hope that we'll get something that's not a complete disaster.

[Nikki Stone1]

289. My thoughts exactly.

:(