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A Facebook encounter with a long lost Christian relative. Was I too harsh?

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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 04:17 PM
Original message
A Facebook encounter with a long lost Christian relative. Was I too harsh?
It started when she posted a video of Glen Beck on her wall. I posted 'Heavy Sigh'. I've changed her name to 'Friend' and mine to Fuzz.

Friend No Fuzz, have no idea about the heavy sigh, do I want to know???

Fuzz
I'm just sad to see that you admire someone like Glen Beck is all.

Friend
It's not so much the man that impresses me Fuzz. I'm not into worshipping people. I just know that his message in this particular clip is one most people don't hear very often because people are so freaked out over the mention of Christ, God, prayer, etc. That's why I placed it on my wall. It could have been anyone but he just happened to be the one who spoke the truth.

Fuzz
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek.

<1596 Shakespeare Merchant of Venice i. iii. 93>

Friend
I know Fuzz but the truth is the truth and the truth will set you free. Like I said I am not a Glen Beck worshipper just love to hear God's truth in the media, it's so very rare!!

Fuzz
It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.

Friend
You're right about that, one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord!! I am looking forward to that!!

Fuzz
That's from Mein Kamf, Vol 2 Chapter 2 written of course by Adolf Hitler

Friend
Ok old friend, I am certainly missing something here!! My grandfather fought in Hitler 's army but I am no follower of that dude!! Are you like completely gifted or what?? When do you have time to read that stuff???

Fuzz
So did both of mine.

The point is you are accepting a message from a lunatic only because it strikes you as 'true'. And never did I even insinuate that you worshiped Beck. I'm not trying to offend, really I'm not.

I once knew a different Friend and I wonder how the Friend I see through your writing now would look at the Friend I knew. Would she judge her so harshly or pity her, perhaps look down on her or dismiss her as unworthy.


This is when it went to email. I won't post her first email to me because it had some personal stuff, but I will post my response to a couple of questions she had.


"Do you feel this change of heart is not good for me??"

I would never say that. I see your daily devotionals and know where you are at in your life now. I've not commented up until now when I saw that you posted something from Glen Beck, a person who though he spouts off what may seem like 'Christian principles' are really not.

People often ask me why I get so upset when I see today's Christians, especially here in America acting the way they do and I've thought long and hard about it. I've come to conclusion that it's because they, and you, are 'my tribe' as it were. The lack of empathy, sincerity, and the overwhelming hypocrisy, the bearing false witness etc. It's all so un-Christian and not what I was raised to believe.

"Do I wish that you believed like me??"

No, not at all.

Personally, I am an atheist, and have been for 25 years or so. But my morality and personal ethics have nothing to do with religion or 'faith'. That's my thing. I don't push it or preach it, I do however stand by it and defend it when necessary.

I understand the struggle you described with your mom, everyone goes through that growing up, trying to carve out their own identity. Imagine being me and telling your father, a minister, that you no longer believe that there is a 'divine being'. I can imagine how he felt. He must have felt that I was rejecting him and his entire life, especially since I was adopted. But I wasn't, never did. As a matter of fact my parents have moved 4 miles away from my family recently and we are closer than ever.

I'm sure he wishes that I was a christian, but he sees the strength of my family and my two great children and how compassionate and empathetic they are. Hell, I would put those two up against any other two kids, but I don't ever say anything about it, (I just did to you though) ;)

"Do you feel like we can't be friends with the convictions that I have??"

Of course. I have friends from all walks of life, but I would not be able to converse with anyone who would not be able to talk about anything but one subject only.

What concerns me though is the filter that I've seen so many of the christians I know today look at the world through now, call it looking at the world through stained glass windows. The 'American Jesus' phenomena. Prosperity teaching, the selfishness, the bigotry, the small mindedness etc. It has allowed so many christians to be used politically by people who don't really care for christians at all, but just see them as a voting block or a nielson rating. Then they use a few phrases christians identify with and bam, christians are sucked in following un-christ like messages calling it christian. That was my point earlier with the Hitler quote. And like I said earlier, it bothers me because these are my people, even though I no longer consider myself 'christian'.

My father has had to admit after all these years that some of the most immoral, un-Christian like people have been those who have been the loudest proclaimers of Christ. He has also admitted that I am, after all these years of observing me and my family, more 'christian like' than many of the christians he has known. Now, I would have to say I'm just a moral and just person and my parents did a fine job of raising me. But I'd also add moral principles are not necessarily based in religious teaching.

I appreciate the fact that you are happy now. That's great! I just hope that the happiness hasn't come at the expense of critical thinking and an unhealthy sheltering of yourself.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Very eloquently stated that
you think glen beck is full of crap and for that I thank you. Fuzz.

To be so blind as the think someone like beck "speaks the truth" is pathetic.
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I thought tricking her with the Hitler quote was kind of mean.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I googled it myself.
Edited on Sat Oct-24-09 05:11 PM by Ian David
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. That was the Friend's reply.
The quote was:

“It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.”

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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yes, thank you.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Now I have to google THAT, too.
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You think I'm a liar?
;)

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. No, just thought maybe you were pulling her leg. n/t
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. That would be dishonest and innefective for the argument.
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. That was a bit like someone putting a $20 bill on a string...
and hiding around the corner for someone to try to reach for it, wasn't it? May seem amusing to some, but ultimately pointless, and more than a little assholish. Meh.
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Yeah, it was. I know. :( That's why I brought it up.
Too harsh to shock her into understanding the point about listening to provocateurs instead of thinking critically through her christian teachings?
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I'm not clear on how that made your point - devoid of context, it's a fairly benign
anti-greed statement, which I suspect a lot of DUers would agree with (allowing some flexibility on the definition of "higher power", of course). So perhaps she did think critically about your anonymous quote, and decided it was something she agreed with...
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. The point was not the message, but the messenger.
And how Christians are so easily manipulated by Fox and right wing politicians because they hear a few buzzwords they understand.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Still not seeing it - if she didn't know the messenger, she wasn't influenced by
who the messenger was. And, she didn't start agreeing with Hitler just because he said something that sounded right (and things don't become wrong just because Hitler said them, or something similar). Maybe you're arguing that she leaped to agree just because the quote included "god", but you really have no idea how carefully she thought about it. Maybe she liked the quote because she agreed with it, not because it contained buzzwords.

So really, beyond the entertaining 'gotcha', I can't see what point you've made there...
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, kind of this:
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek.

<1596 Shakespeare Merchant of Venice i. iii. 93>
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Well, it proved your point
and I think it was a good point.

The thing I've noticed that fundamentalist christians and Fox News viewers have in common is that they seem to value "faith" over "works" or another way to put it "ideology" over "deeds". As long as you say the right things it doesn't seem to matter what you do.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Christianity I see in the American Bible Belt is loud, angry, materialistic and has a mean face.
It seems mean spirited.

I don't see the draw at all, unless born and indoctrinated into it.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. Same here. I don't see the appeal. It seems judgmental, mean, and aggressive.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think you were pretty gentle..
You went out of your way to invite this person in, without insisting that she change her beliefs. I hope she responds in kind.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. It is possible to be a Christian and a critical thinker.
But it involves a lot of work. It means thinking through questions instead of accepting what some authority figure says just because they say it. The world is shades of grey, not black and white.

I think a lot of right wing Christians are very lazy. They don't want to read history or psychology or science because they think they have a card that trumps all that. They believe in the "authority" of the Bible and never stop to think whose interpretation of the Bible they are assuming and who is served by that interpretation.

Its ok to challenge someone to think harder about what they believe.
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Thanks for that response.
Very true.
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bevoette Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. YES - i am. i became a Christian through critical thinking...and i also became MUCH more liberal.
my progression is completely ANTI-conventional wisdom - the older i got, the more i earned, and the more i studied the Bible...the more LIBERAL i have become (and am still becoming)

conventional wisdom is dead wrong.
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ChoppinBroccoli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. If I Had To Paint A Picture Of What I Consider The "Typical" Christian Today.......
...........I'd paint a person with his/her face contorted into an angry/enraged sneer, pointing an accusatory finger at someone in an aggressive fashion. And that, my friend, AIN'T Christianity. That's why I reject ALL organized religions. Find your spiritual truth by following your own path. Don't be a sheep that follows groups. Or, more accurately, don't be a lemming.
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HillWilliam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. Man, there has been a lot of this going on over on FB lately
I waded into a thread on behalf of a friend of mine last night who was taking heat from some of her relatives. She's pretty well-educated and (alright for her!) not taking any crap from the ones who are trying to work the convert-or-be-disowned crap on her. I've already decided if someone feels the need to defriend me because I refuse to buy into their convert-or-die bullshit, fine, begone. I've already been down the religious road and never fit better than shoes two sizes too small and on the wrong feet at that. I have a brain and I don't feel like handing it over with my wallet so some fat bastard can sit in his mansion living a tax-free, work-free, sweat-free existence.

Glad you can be patient and gentle. My patience for intolerant fools rant out some time back. Good fences (and the defriend button) make for good neighbors.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. No way you were harsh. I appreciate what you wrote, and I am a Christian.
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. I know how you feel
Edited on Sat Oct-24-09 06:19 PM by liberal_at_heart
I feel I have to walk a delicate balance with my father who is evangelical Christian. He has become more fundamental in his beliefs and it does put a strain on our relationship. All the talk of remaking America into a Christian nation again. I am Buddhist. How do you remake a Christian nation again without completely disregarding and invalidating someone else's beliefs? How do you remake America into a Christian nation without oppressing others' beliefs? How do remake America into a Christian nation without directly or indirectly coersing or out right forcing people to be Christian? Now, my father lives with me although right now he is visiting my brother. We live in a rather uncomfortable silence. I try very hard to be understanding and tolerant as my religion has taught me to be. He doesn't outright try to convert me or my children anymore. That right there caused quite a bit of tension when he tried to convert my children. I don't mind that he is Christian. He is free to belong to whatever religoin he wants. What worries me is that his religion wants to take my freedom away. And The fact that I know he would love nothing more than to remake this country back into a Christian nation makes me feel invalidated and disrespected and scared that my freedom of religon could be threatened. I hear all the time about Christians fighting for their right to pray at hight school football games or at graduation. When was the last time you heard a Buddhist prayer at a high school football game or graduation? The Christians would never allow that. That is what worries me.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. +1
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
25. by the way I don't think you were too harsh on your relative
Like others have said on here it sounds like you were just challenging them to think a little more about what they believe and who they listen to instead of just taking what someone says at face value.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. Just wondering why people use FB for arguing about stuff
I have a bunch of long-lost relatives and some friends who are avid (rabid) Christians as well.

Sometimes they post some really (IMO) nauseating stuff re: God, religion, Faith, etc.

I just ignore it.

I mean, what else is there to do? Facebook is supposed to be fun. Why make it unpleasant with arguing with someone who's not going to change his or her opinion anyway?

:shrug:


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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. As do I. I'm very upfront with my own atheism, and tell FB
family and acquaintances that overweening fundamentalist Christian messages will result in their being hidden. I do this in private messages. So far, everyone has cut back on their proselytizing on FB. I do it politely, and tell them that, while I enjoy keeping up with what's going on in their lives, I don't think FB is the place to proselytize family and friends. I then offer to discuss their religious views in private messages and email. Just not on Facebook. I treat political arguments the same way there. I make political statements but do not comment on the statement of others. Everyone is entitled to political views and religious beliefs. It's not really something to be argued in a friends and family setting, as far as I am concerned.
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. SHIT. She read it and responded publicly
that transparency can be painful.

Nothing back to me privately. Don't know what that means.
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condoleeza Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I also think you were very gentle with her
apparently she has had some struggles, which is often why people cling to religion. I don't see how discussing this w/o identifying her is a major betrayal, hopefully she will see that. Sorry.
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Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Yes, with some people EVERYTHING is a 'struggle'.
She defines her marriage as 'paradise' so any little thing that goes wrong is a tragedy.

I've connected with quite a few people from my past. My father ministered at several churches throughout the country, and I have made several 'friends'.

A lot of them went through these 'struggles' but eventually went back to the church, thinking that was the answer to their problems. For them it probably was, but in the majority of the cases I think it just covered up their real problems.

So many of them are into these 'self-help' books and seminars, various preachers and striving for some sort of peace on earth, for themselves, shutting themselves out of the real world and just looking for messages that sound 'biblical', and anything they hear that conflicts makes them upset.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Probably means she hopes to publicly shame you.
Or convert you. Or somehow evangelize to the legions of atheist friends you no doubt have among your fb friends. It was she who started the private email volley in the first place, so this does seem strange. Was she at least nice when she responded? I think your email to her was very respectful and loving. If she's not taking it that way, if she's responding inappropriately, you are under no no obligation to respond or continue the conversation, nor under any obligation to keep the posts on your wall or keep her as a friend at all.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. I don't think you were too harsh
and sometimes hitting a nerve, as you may have done, contributes to someone seeing things in a new light. Sometimes they don't much like what they see. She could be struggling with that now.

You can only control how you behave. I don't see anything but concern from you in what you've posted here.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
31. Why is she sitting on her sanctimonious ass and posting on Facebook...
instead of comforting the cold, poor, naked, and hungry?

Fuck her
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