Ten Commandments: Secular or religious?

[usregimechange]

One of the longest-running court battles over the public display of the Ten Commandments returned to Cincinnati on Tuesday, but this time it had a new twist.

Instead of fighting over the content of the displays in two Kentucky courthouses, the lawyers argued about what motivated public officials to put up the displays in the first place and whether those motives have changed.

The new argument matters because the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that the actions of public officials in McCreary and Pulaski counties showed a “predominantly religious” purpose for the placement of the Ten Commandments in the courthouses in 1999.

In a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court found the counties were determined to make a religious statement and, therefore, violated the constitutional prohibition against government establishment of religion.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20091020/NEWS01/910210313/Commandments++Secular+or+religious

[ddeclue]

1. Considering that it begins "I am the Lord Thy God"..I'd have to vote "religious"

:crazy:

[usregimechange]

3. Tell me about it

[imdjh]

9. Perhaps, but one could envision sufficient intellectual camouflage.

If there were indeed a display of ancient law, the evolution of law if you will, then it could pass an artistic smell test. Like a Depression Era mural which showed some Rube Goldberg meets Michelangelo thing.

But as they are wont to do, they bungled it.

They argue that their displays now should be permitted because they have erected new displays called “The Foundations of American Law and Government,” which include plaques of the Ten Commandments, the Bill of Rights and the lyrics to “The Star-Spangled Banner.


The problem with this ruse, is that the Ten Commandments are clearly NOT the foundation of American government, unless our founding fathers were completely ignorant of the Ten Commandments.

The First Commandment is clearly betrayed by American government. It commands us to have no other god but God, and yet the First Amendment forbids the country from having an official god.

There is no law forbiding idols, no law punishing coveting your neighbor's ass, or failing to honor your father and your mother. Of the Ten Commandments, only lie, steal, and murder are specifically covered in US law, and there is wiggle room on each.

Matt Staver is a horse's ass.

[LiberalFighter]

13. If they did use the evolution of law then they would have to provide

that Hammurabi's Code of Laws as the precursor to the 10 Commandments.

Hammurabi Code (1790 BC)

Moses Exodus Begins (1447 BC)

[Blue State Blues]

30. I don't think they believe in evolution ... of law.

[paulsby]

24. lol

game, set match.

[TexasObserver]

2. Those who want to see the ten commandments can shove them up their steeple.

[RKP5637]

5. Excellent! Well put, so to say! n/t

[TexasObserver]

11. Most of the churches don't display the Ten Commandments!

[imdjh]

17. The Ten Commandments are like Jesus in a Tortilla. People believe they are everywhere.

I was arguing with a right winger who sincerely believed that he had seen them engraved on the floor of the National Archives.

[RKP5637]

19. Many RW'ers don't play with a full deck. Here's something you might find interesting ...

I've heard of this study before, this is the best summary I was able to come up with quickly... maybe you've seen it before. It underlines (to me) why good intelligence and logic fails on most RW'ers to modify their thinking even slightly.

As I recall, was also applicable to religion.

"CHICAGO - The differences between liberals and conservatives may run deeper than how they feel about welfare reform or the progress of the Iraq war: Researchers reported Sunday that their brains may actually work differently.

In a study likely to raise the hackles of some conservatives, psychologist David Amodio and others found that a specific region of the brain’s cortex is more sensitive in people who consider themselves liberals than in self-declared conservatives.

The brain region in question helps people shift gears when their usual response would be inappropriate, supporting the notion that liberals are more flexible in their thinking."

Entire article at... http://www.popmatters.com/pm/article/brains-of-liberals-conservatives-may-work-differently-study-finds

[greendog]

21. Most of the churches in my county DO display the 10 commandments.

It's really crazy.







http://www.gods10.us/churches.html

[TexasObserver]

22. Not here. They love to talk about the 10 commandments ...

... but you won't find them in most churches. The same people want them in schools and at city hall, though.

[greendog]

23. We have them at the County Courthouse as well.

And on billboards alongside the highways. Call it 10 Commandment Saturation. They're everywhere. :eyes:

[RKP5637]

25. Do they all say the same or do they twist them around to suit their needs ...

Often the 10 commandments I've seen vary considerably by who made them up for whom with modified content. When I learned them decades ago they were simple and straight forward, now there seem to be a massive number of various iterations to suit the respective agenda and indoctrination requirement.

[greendog]

28. They aren't particularly legible from a distance but they're probably...

...pretty similar.

Apparently, there's a guy in town with some money who's bankrolling the project. Many of the signs look like they come from the same place.

Here's the projects website:
http://www.gods10.us/churches.html

[RKP5637]

29. They do look pretty similar... from the same place. To me religion today is ...

pretty much cult behavior. In my book when they have to push this hard to sell something, there's something wrong with the product. I feel sorry for kids growing up in this environment, they will never possibly be able in life to think with a clear mind and make their own decisions.

[Ian David]

4. The First Amendment to The Constitution voided the first four commandants. n/t

If you're going to display The Decalogue, you need to display them with nine of the 10 crossed-out and asterisked along with the laws and supreme court cases that over-turned them.

[imdjh]

10. ding ding ding

[MajorChode]

6. If they display George Carlin's version of the 10 commandments, then I'd agree it's secular

[madrchsod]

7. 5 - 10 are pretty much universal

the real story about moses and the rest of all that is far different than what the teevee preachers want you to believe.

[mn9driver]

8. The first five commandments are on how to worship God.

They have nothing to do with human law. The second five can arguably be said to sketch out a moral or legal foundation, but the first five are only about the do's and dont's of God.

[Canuckistanian]

12. I think that's the simplest description

Commandments 6-10 are really just common sense rules for ANY human community to follow.

[PeaceNikki]

14. Who would ever claim that they are "secular"?

Clearly someone who's never fucking read them.

[MajorChode]

18. This should help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHqL7dNujNc

It's the same fucknuts that whited out "Jesus" in the Creationists' manifesto, renamed it Intelligent Design, and tried to pass it off as secular.

[Speck Tater]

15. What about the Buddhist Five Precepts?

1. Do not kill.
2. Do not take what is not given.
3. Abstain from sexual misconduct.
4. Abstain from false speech.
5. Abstain from intoxication.

[The Straight Story]

26. Well I am ok on one out of 5

:rofl:

[SoCalDem]

16. Th ejoke here is that the public displaying of them started out as a PR movie stunt

for a movie made by ( DeMille's Mother was Jewish) and funded largely by Jewish movie moguls..

Stone tablets were dispersed all over the midwest as a publicity stunt to call attention to The Ten Commandments"..

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/4917688/How-A-Publicity-Stunt-By-Hollywood-Producer-Cecil-B-DeMille-Wound-Up-At-The-Supreme-CourtAnd-What-Happened-When-It-Did

Ironically, the monument that has sparked so much fuss was until a few years ago covered with weeds and vines. Many town residents didn't even know it was there until a groundskeeper cleaned it off one day in 1998.

snip

The monument had found a home in front of the Elkhart City Hall four decades earlier as a tie-in for a promotional campaign for a movie --Hollywood producer Cecil B. DeMille's biblical extravaganza "The Ten Commandments."

DeMille's involvement grew out of a nationwide campaign first launched in 1943 by E.J. Ruegemer, a Minnesota juvenile court judge and head of a Fraternal Order of Eagles (FOE) committee dealing with the problems of youth. Ruegemer claimed that many of the young people who ended up in his courtroom lacked a moral foundation, and he proposed posting paper copies of the Ten Commandments in juvenile courts to rectify that.

DeMille got wind of Ruegemer's project as he was working on his epic film, which starred Charlton Heston as Moses. DeMille, eager to drum up publicity for the 1956 movie, proposed displaying bronze tablets instead of paper copies, but Ruegemer felt that granite markers would be more appropriate, arguing that the original Ten Commandments were probably made of stone. DeMille agreed and authorized Ruegemer to contract with a Minnesota granite firm to begin production. Eagles units soon began donating them to cities around the country.

DeMille carefully exploited the situation to ensure maximum publicity for his movie, and some of the monument dedications were even timed to tie in with the release of the film. In one town, Dunseith, N.D., actor Heston appeared personally for the ceremony. In Milwaukee, a Ten Commandments monument was unveiled the same week the film debuted, with actor Yul Brynner -- Pharaoh in the movie -- on hand for the festivities.



snip

Ruegemer, 98 and still living in Minnesota, told the South Bend Tribune in May that the Eagles were at first wary of taking on the project, fearing that it might be perceived as sectarian. To get around that, organizational leaders asked Catholic, Protestant and Jewish representatives to come together and decide on how to word and list the commandments in a way that was agreeable to all. (Roman Catholics, Protestants and Jews use different versions of the Ten Commandments. For example, in the Catholic version, the fourth commandment is "Honor your mother and father." In the Protestant and Jewish versions, it is "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.")

Thanks to the DeMille-Eagles partnership, more than 2,000 Ten Commandments monuments were donated to communities around the country. The FOE kept the project going long after the film opened, and some monuments did not get erected until 10 years later. Elkhart's monument was dedicated on Memorial Day of 1958, when local Protestant, Jewish and Catholic clergy in Elkhart, joined by FOE officers and city officials, unveiled it at a public ceremony.

Four decades passed. In 1998, when the monument was rediscovered, it immediately became a focus of controversy and the target of a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union. A federal district court ruled against the ACLU, but the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals took the opposite tack. …

most were tossed aside, but some communities treated them as if they were personal gifts from god..:)

and so it started..





here's a very interesting bio of de Mille.. he was a very interesting guy

http://www.adherents.com/people/pd/Cecil_B_DeMille.html

[damntexdem]

20. I'd say that the Ten Suggestions are definitely religious.

In fact, 30-40% (depending on one's version of the 10 Suggestions) are devoted exclusively to religion.

[intheflow]

27. Since when was Star-Spangled Banner used as a foundation of American law & government?

Because that's what also included in the new proposed display entitled "Foundations of American Law and Government! :crazy: I like what Vonnegut had to say about our national anthem:

Trout and Hoover were citizens of the United States of America, a country which was called America for short. This was their national anthem, which was pure balderdash, like so much they were expected to take seriously:

O, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thru the perilous fight
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

There were one quadrillion nations in the Universe, but the nation Dwayne Hoover and Kilgore Trout belonged to was the only one with a national anthem which was gibberish sprinkled with question marks.

Breakfast of Champions

Really and truly, the only thing in their lame-o would-be display is the Constitution. If they really wanted a display of the principles of law and government we were founded on, they'd include the Magna Carta, the story of the Six Nations (Iroquois Confederacy), and the Emancipation Proclamation and leave the Ten Commandments and and our meaningless, war-loving, flag-worshipping national anthem the fuck out of it.

[mitchum]

31. Tribal...and I don't belong to that tribe (they mean jack to me)

[Jim__]

32. They're not claiming that the 10 commandments are secular.

They're claiming that they are a part of a display that's secular. According to the article, such a display has been permitted before when it's part of a secular display.

I disagree with the claim because I don't believe that American Law and Government is, in any real way, founded on the 10 commandments. But I'm not sure the accuracy of the claim matters.

[SidneyCarton]

33. Deleted for reasons of doctrinal illiteracy

(I forgot the 9th commandment!) :blush:

[LeftHander]

34. Oh but you you can't expect some dirty old geezer

to wield supreme executive power because he threw a stone tablet at you!

[yellowcanine]

35. Well the Ten Commandments are in the scriptures of TWO major religions.

So I have to go with religious. It is amazing that we are even having this discussion. Also amazing to me is that even though today only three of the commandments are enshrined in civil law - killing (certain kinds, anyway), stealing (certain kinds, anyway), and false witness (in a very circumscribed way) some people still insist that the whole shebang is somehow secular.

As for the other seven....

One could also argue that our whole capitalistic system is based on violating at least one of the commandments - coveting. And nationalism, standing armies and capitalism (again) would appear to violate "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Swearing oaths violates "taking God's name in vain" - even Jesus says that. We do have Mother's Day and Father's Day but one could argue that those are tokenism at best and cynicism at worst, given the capitalistic (yet again) exploitation of them. Graven images, keeping the Sabbath holy, no adultery - yeah those are American secular values, all right. :sarcasm: (Need I point out that capitalism trumps those three in many cases also?)