Ishmael:

[H2O Man]

An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit
by Daniel Quinn

See:

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?PID=26056&cgi=biblio&show=TRADE%20PAPER:NEW:0553375407:15.95

Powells.com Staff Pick
For those of us who have been in the rat race of modern culture long enough that we have stopped thinking, and for those of us who have never deeply examined our place in the world, this book is an awakening. It just may change the way you think about everything. Ishmael is a teacher, unlike any you have ever met, with a final mission — to teach man about fixing the ills of the modern world before it's too late. This book is a must read, and a wonderful eye-opener.
Recommended by Linda, Powells.com

Synopses & Reviews
Publisher Comments:
The narrator of this extraordinary tale is a man in search for truth. He answers an ad in a local newspaper from a teacher looking for serious pupils, only to find himself alone in an abandoned office with a full-grown gorilla who is nibbling delicately on a slender branch. "You are the teacher?" he asks incredulously. "I am the teacher," the gorilla replies. Ishmael is a creature of immense wisdom and he has a story to tell, one that no other human being has ever heard. It is a story that extends backward and forward over the lifespan of the earth from the birth of time to a future there is still time save. Like all great teachers, Ishmael refuses to make the lesson easy; he demands the final illumination to come from within ourselves. Is it man's destiny to rule the world? Or is it a higher destiny possible for him-- one more wonderful than he has ever imagined?



Note: I'm not sure why some of the post had lines in it when I first put this up. Anyhow, I have wondered if this might be the gunman's "The Catcher in the Rye," based upon his negative experience in his creative writing class? It was a curious book, and since reading what he wrote on his arm, I wondered about this.

[KoKo]

1. You post this because of.........

"the tatoo?" An awakening of someone who felt this to their core?

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

2. No. n/t

[KoKo]

3. sorry....

[SallyMander]

4. What did he write on his arm?

...i must have missed that??

It makes me sad to think of this book having anything to do with the tragedy at Virginia Tech... Ishmael blew my mind back in middle school, before i'd really started thinking about much besides myself.

[H2O Man]

5. From an AP article:

"The Washington Post quoted law enforcement sources as saying Cho died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on one of his arms, but they were not sure what that meant."

[KoKo]

8. That's what I was getting at in my first reply to your post.

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

9. The reports

that I have heard on tv and read refer to the writing as being in red ink, not a tattoo. Were you making reference to the writing, or something different?

[KoKo]

10. What I heard was a "Tatoo" ...and you are saying a "writing on his arm."

I replied to your reference to "Ishmael" and what it might have meant to him.

I'm sorry...if I stepped on your toes with what I heard reported and you heard.

Peace!

koko

[Richard D]

6. I very highly doubt this has anything to do with it. n/t

[Annces]

7. There was some buzz about that book - but I have not read it n/t

[BeHereNow]

12. Go get a copy at your local library- it is a great read.

You will find it most interesting and thought provoking in regards to the times we live in.
BHN

[TahitiNut]

11. I loved that book!

It wasn't all that well-written, but the ideas and viewpoints were terrific.

[KoKo]

13. Maybe Cho read it.....and didn't see a way to "handle" what he read?

That's what I though H2O's post was directing us towards...but I was mistaken.

However...I thought that what he was reading might play into what he did. I thought it was an interesting angle when I read H2O's post about Ishmael.

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

14. I have no idea how Quinn's book would feed Cho's behavior.

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

16. Not in a healthy way.

I'm just curious why he wrote the thing on his arm. It likely had meaning to him. At times, people who commit terrible crimes have cited things from "The Catcher in the Rye" to "The Beatles" (aka the White Album).

[H2O Man]

15. Years ago,

one of the therapists in the clinic I worked at was big on the book. She used to suggest it to people who felt like detached observants of our modern society. She gave copies of the book to co-workers when she left. I didn't read much of it -- I do not read much fiction -- but I was reminded of it when I read about the bit on his arm. It could be totally unrelated, of course. I just wondered if others who are familiar with the book had thought of it.

[KoKo]

18. Reading something that "resonates" with the reader and spurs them on

applies to all "thinkers." Maybe the question is: Whether it inspires Massacre's or Revolution.

The reading is in the eye of the reader and the actions taken and what costs society has to deal with in someone's "Awakening." Lennon and MLK and others managed to "control" their reaction to what they read and learned through observation and use it for GOOD...to move people forward.

Perhaps some people are so despairing that when they read something they "latch onto" they become filled with hate and must use what they read to fulfill their own darkest self loathing and despair. Then they STRIKE OUT because they don't know how to direct or re-direct their angst at what they've learned.

The "forces of light" always fighting against the "dark side." Some times the "dark side" wins in dreadful ways...as we've seen over and over.

That's what I thought you might be getting at in your OP. :shrug:

[marions ghost]

17. it's a possibility

I can't speak definitively about that book 'Ishmael', but agree that it's likely to be a literary reference, since Cho was a writer.

There's also the Ishmael in Moby Dick:

"In the novel's first sentence, the narrator famously declares, "Call me Ishmael." It is unclear whether this is his actual name or an alias. His role as a narrator varies widely. Initially, his is the only narrative, but after the Pequod leaves port, he repeatedly fades and comes back to full prominence.

The name 'Ishmael' also appears in the Bible as that of the first son of Abraham in the Old Testament. The biblical Ishmael was born to Abraham and his wife's (Sarah) maidservant Hagar, because Abraham and Sarah believed Sarah to be infertile. Hagar gave birth to son Ishmael, then 14 years later a 90 year old Sarah was granted a son (Isaac) by God. Sarah observed 17 year old Ishmael teasing Isaac and urged Abraham to expel Hagar and her son Ishmael. This proposal upset Abraham; but God commanded him to comply with Sarah's request and so Abraham ordered Hagar and Ishmael to leave.

The name has come to symbolize orphans, exiles, and social outcasts—in the opening paragraph of Moby-Dick, Ishmael tells the reader that he has turned to the sea out of a feeling of alienation from human society. In the last line of the book Ishmael also refers to himself symbolically as an orphan. Ishmael has a rich literary background (he has previously been a schoolteacher), which he brings to bear on his shipmates and events that occur while at sea.

Ishmael resembles Melville in several ways (as well as the narrator of Melville's White-Jacket). They are well-educated and reflective; Ishmael sees his shipmates as avatars of human nature and society, and tells his story by couching it in a wealth of philosophical observation, (largely occurring during sections in which Ishmael takes an almost-omniscient viewpoint, conflating himself with his author)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby-Dick

[regnaD kciN]

27. Islam tells a different story...

The name 'Ishmael' also appears in the Bible as that of the first son of Abraham in the Old Testament. The biblical Ishmael was born to Abraham and his wife's (Sarah) maidservant Hagar, because Abraham and Sarah believed Sarah to be infertile. Hagar gave birth to son Ishmael, then 14 years later a 90 year old Sarah was granted a son (Isaac) by God. Sarah observed 17 year old Ishmael teasing Isaac and urged Abraham to expel Hagar and her son Ishmael. This proposal upset Abraham; but God commanded him to comply with Sarah's request and so Abraham ordered Hagar and Ishmael to leave.

According to Islam, it was Ishmael, not Isaac, who was the true God-following descendant of Ibrahim (Abraham). In many cases, they take Jewish traditions involving Isaac (such as the human sacrifice stopped by God at the last minute) and re-tell them with Ishmael instead.

Ishmael (in either the Jewish or Muslim accounts) is the father of the Arab peoples, which probably accounts for the higher regard for him in the Quran than in the Torah.

The mention of "Ismail" (sic) is one reason why some have speculated that the shooter was actually an Asian Islamist, along with the story of how Ibrahim used an ax to destroy the idols of Ur. However, there may well be no connection. (It's even possible that "Ismail Ax" was a name that came to him for a future story, and he wrote it on his arm, Memento-style, to remind him of it.

[marions ghost]

32. thanks

I didnt realize that Ishmael was considered so important in Islam.

For whatever the reason the shooter wrote it on his arm, it would seem to be tied up with this symbology in his mind. Doesn't mean he had to be an Islamist of course, but it would be interesting if so.

[H2O Man]

33. While he may have been,

there does not seem to be any information that has been made public that would connect him to Islam. It is possible that he felt some connection in his rather solitary existence. But that does not come across in any of the other descriptions of him, or in the rather pecular writings of his that are now available on the internet. He does appear to have an interest in literature. My oldest son has told me that he thinks the connection is most likely to one of the other books mentioned on this thread and others.

[marions ghost]

34. right,

and since there are multiple references to Ishmael in literature, there may even be multiple references and meanings to the shooter. The 'ax' part does seem to imply the biblical story is possibly a source is all I'm saying. Based on what we know now, it's a stretch to conclude he was an Islamist. Agreed, that's jumping to conclusions.

Actually I don't think there is a strong motivating philosophy or religious zealotry behind this guy. Just perhaps a personal symbology drawn from literature, resonating with his inner torment.

I once had a seriously troubled student who telegraphed her problems in assignments she turned in, so this is my interest in this. It was difficult for me to get attention to her problem through university administrative channels, though eventually it became clear that my suspicions were correct, that she had a strong death wish going on. I had known nothing about her except through her work in the course. Colleges need to take this kind of thing much more seriously.

[H2O Man]

37. I agree.

The "ax" part does seem to stand out. I think you are right about it.

It appears that some of the faculty recognized this fellow was deeply troubled, and tried to get help for him. It can be very difficult. While I'm from another state (NY), I know the frustation not only from experience at work, but in a family situation as well. I have a relative who is mentally ill, and who from time to time has posed a serious threat to himself and others. My wife is a psychiatric social worker, and I have relatives in law enforcement. (I am retired from employment at a mental health clinic.) And there were several times when we coordinated efforts to try to have the threatening relative dealt with by "the system." It can be frustrating, not because anyone was refusing to do their job, or because people did not try to do what they thought was best. But it was jail for a brief time, the psychiatric wards for a few months, detox and drug rehab, and the cycle continued over and over. He didn't kill others, but he did hurt people.

The "system" is imperfect. More, those who are intent upon hurting others, and who are of average or above intelligence, can be very difficult to stop before they commit crimes.

[Vilis Veritas]

43. There is also this in Project

Gutenberg...

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15774/15774-8.txt

There is even references to the Ax...

"Nora hesitated, shivered, and gasped; but could not then ask the
question that was to confirm her fate; it was worse than throwing the
dice upon which a whole fortune was staked; it was like giving the
signal for the ax to fall upon her own neck. At last, however, it came,
in low, fearful, but distinct words:"

[Me.]

19. We May Never Know How He Twisted In Upon Himself

what he read and/or may have corrupted it in connection with himself. I haven't read the book, but when reading the reviews I came across this line:

"And yet you do destroy it, each of you. Each of you contributes daily to the destruction of the world."

Your theory has as much valadity as any I've heard for an action that makes no sense. We may never know, at all, why unless he's left a note. (which I am not aware of)

[H2O Man]

31. Right. n/t

[marions ghost]

20. here's another discussion on this....

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/04/17/va_tech_mass_shootin.html

[Annces]

21. interesting

It seems to match.

"For those of you still searching for meaning in this phrase, written in ink on Cho Seung-Hui's arm and also how he signed his infamous note, it starts with the story of Ibrahim's Ax (Ibrahim = Abraham):
After making sure that nobody was left in town, Ibrahim went towards the temple armed with an ax. Statues of all shapes and sizes were sitting there adorned with decorations. Plates of food were offered to them, but the food was untouched. "Well, why don't you eat? The food is getting cold." He said to the statues, joking; then with his ax he destroyed all the statues except one, the biggest of them. He hung the ax around its neck and left. --The Koran

Ismail was Ibrahim's son. It was Ismail that Ibrahim wanted to sacrifice for Yahweh (with an ax)."

[marions ghost]

22. yeah I thought so too

the biblical reference to Ibrahim's Ax intended for Ishmael would seem to be a strong contender....

More may come out about this.

I once was faced with similar questions about a suicidal student's sanity as a result of work she produced for class. After that experience I'd say no one should doubt that very troubled people, especially the ones who can express themselves in words or images, often leave clues. At first I thought it was my imagination, but I got some other opinions and am glad I did. The signs of mental disturbance were very clear I realized. Colleges need to be very aware of this.

[Kazak]

23. Quinn makes a lot of sense.

Another book I find supplements Ishmael well is called The Chalice and the Blade, by Riane Eisler.

Edit: Oops, I initially thought the purpose of this thread was to draw attention to Ishmael, the book, uh, as an interesting prose that is... :shrug:

[marions ghost]

24. in what way?

Can't make the connection.

[Kazak]

25. They both...

illuminate ways in which humans once behaved which were in harmony with their environment. Takers/dominator society vs. leavers/partnership society. Dig?

[dave29]

26. I think, unfortunately he was an Ahab.

"That captain was Ahab. And then it was, that suddenly sweeping his sickle-shaped lower jaw beneath him, Moby Dick had reaped away Ahab's leg, as a mower a blade of grass in the field.... Small reason was there to doubt, then, that ever since that almost fatal encounter, Ahab had cherished a wild vindictiveness against the whale, all the more fell for that in his frantic morbidness he at last came to identify with him, not only all his bodily woes, but all his intellectual and spiritual exasperations. The White Whale swam before him as the monomaniac incarnation of all those malicious agencies which some deep men feel eating in them, till they are left living on with half a heart and half a lung. That intangible malignity which has been from the beginning; to whose dominion even the modern Christians ascribe one-half of the worlds; which the ancient Ophites of the east reverenced in their statue devil; -- Ahab did not fall down and worship it like them; but deliriously transferring its idea to the abhorred white whale, he pitted himself, all mutilated, against it. All that most maddens and torments; all that stirs up the lees of things; all truth with malice in it; all that cracks the sinews and cakes the brain; all the subtle demonisms of life and thought; all evil, to crazy Ahab, where visibly personified, and made practically assailable in Moby Dick. He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it. --Chapter 41 (Moby Dick)"

[rosesaylavee]

28. I think it may be more about this book

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2810480&mesg_id=2810896 which was part of this main thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2810480

"Ishmael" or "In the Depths" by Emma Southworth in 1876 seems to be the more likely source.

I very much enjoyed Quinn's book - I hope this tragedy is not related to it.

[LWolf]

29. I can't find a connection.

Unless he saw himself as the government assassins in "The Story of B?"

I didn't really find anything in "Ishmael" that would spur someone to an act like that. The book might offer a suggestion about human evolution that explains the act. It might engender a frustration, anger or disgust with the human species, but what it really does is encourage change. A change in culture, perspective, and way of thinking about the world. If mass murder/suicide is this gunman's idea of "change," then I'd have to say he brought his own rage, despair, and violence to the process.

[H2O Man]

30. I think it is

safe to say that the gunman brought his "own rage, despair, and violence to the process." And a rational, healthy mind is not going to find that book, or The Catcher in the Rye, or The Beatles (aka The White Album) reason to kill.

I recognize that I'm most likely looking at something that has no connection whatsoever.

[Me.]

35. Not Sure About That

or that any of the suppositions are wrong. These things are set off by incidents that have no connection to the consequences which makes it even more bizarre, the way in which they are triggered by them. We won't know until we know (if ever). Does that make any sense.

[AuntPatsy]

36. Sounds like a great read but I strongly feel it has nothing to do

with that young man's decision that others must die.

[KoKo]

38. Odd or Interesting comment on Ismail Ax from a Blog.

Wouldn't Cho spell it Ishmael Axe rather than Ismail Ax?

---------------------------------------

Cho Seung-Hui and Ismail Ax Tuesday April 17th 2007, 10:09 pm


After the Chicago Tribune made mention of the words scrawled on Cho Seung-Hui’s body, “the blogosphere filled with theories about the possible meaning of ‘Ismail Ax.’ Hundreds of bloggers speculated on a link to Islam or to literature; thousands offered their opinions and millions read the commentaries, according to Technorati.com,” reports the Sydney Morning Herald.

One such blog, Unrest in the Forest, posted the following:

Ismail Ax “is a well known phrase in the Muslim world. The Muslims believe that the is wrong in saying that Abraham was supposed to kill Isaac with a knife, rather they believe he was supposed to kill Ishmael (Ismail) with an Axe. They also believe that Abraham was supposed to go out and attack idols with an axe, and some also attribute the phrase to meaning that Ishmael was supposed to kill Isaac, the father of all Western culture, with an axe… Cho was a South Korean immigrant to the US, but it seems undeniable that his killing spree, at least in part, was motivated by some sort of belief in Islam.”

Maybe. But then, as well, it may be that somebody wants to give the impression Cho Seung-Hui was a Muslim. Of course, it is possible Cho Seung-Hui converted to Islam after arriving in America in 1992, although there is no mention of this in news reports. In South Korea, the Muslim population stands at an underwhelming 0.2 percent. Is it possible a reclusive and basically non-communicative South Korean student—that is if we can put credence in the story now emerging—discovered this relatively cryptic and obscure Islamic religious reference on his own, maybe at the university library? If so, why was he compelled to pen this on the inside of his arm? Did Cho Seung-Hui want us to believe he was a Muslim?

Or did his handlers want us to believe he was but another crazed and psychotic Muslim gunning for innocent young Americans, “rich kids” (as Cho supposedly called them) attending a highly ranked engineering college?


http://kurtnimmo.com/

[The Stranger]

42. Whatever it means, it was probably in someone else's handwriting.

The only way to help the sheeple with a tragedy like this is to let them blame it on the Other, in this case, Muslims. "Oh, that explains it. He was a terrorist. Now I can pay my taxes to support the war crimes and go down to Wal Mart to consume." The irony is that this kind of tragedy is happening every day in the land of the Other, Iraq.

[Me.]

39. Still Thinking About It

provoking

[Marnieworld]

40. I read this years ago and I never forgot it

Excellent book. Though when I googled the phrase on his arm it linked to math sites so who knows?

[habitual]

41. read the book

liked it. traces most of modern problems to the advent of agriculture. goes well beyond to eastern philosophy subjects. don't see how it could be related to the current situation, doubt the English major would have spelled it wrong (i believe it was spelled without the h on his arm)

[Vilis Veritas]

44. Ismail is a proper spelling...

for the biblical reference.

I like your point. An english major might not spell it wrong. However, brilliance can lend a hand to evil from time to time and there has been much speculation around the arm writing so, I tend to side with the evil brilliance theory.

He could have written 'red axe' and we would all be citing this...

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12191/12191.txt

[Jokinomx]

45. "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn was a great book and in my opinion

doesn't come close to being the reference on the killers arm. After reading all the posts in this thread, it certainly looks like it was a reference to the bible and Abraham.

For those that haven't read Quinn's book... do yourself a favor and read it. It really gives the reader a new angle to think about.

Peace

Jokinomx

[chaska]

46. I thought 'My Ishmael' (the sequel) was a better book...

Not the greatest fiction in the world in either case, but the ideas are what count and they are top notch. Turned my head around, for good.